View Full Version : Krypton Factor - Female advantage fair?
We were watching the new series of Krypton Factor last night and there were 3 men and 1 woman. They got to the physical assault course stage and the woman was given a head start (minor as it was at 5 seconds I think).
Is this fair? I don't think it is. If you want to go on an all round mental and physical agility programme then you shouldn't get any advantage in any round. There are some mental skills that women are proven to be better in than men, so did the men get given any head start in those? Of course not.
So, stick your vote in the poll. I'm going to make this public so we can see who's voted. Will be interesting in how the male/female split goes :)
C'mon - get your finger out - where's the poll? :p :D
Anyway, yes, it's fair. I've no doubt that that course is very heavily tested and supervised (military involvement?) so they'll know what is achievable both for men and women. If the advantage wasn't given, it's very unlikely women would ever win (unless the men were all slobs, of course). You wouldn't expect a female marathon runner (at peak fitness) to beat a male runner (also at peak), for example.
Admiral Huddy
07-01-2009, 11:56
No but I would expect a fit female to outrun an unfit male. Therefore, the advantage is outdated imo.
Equality frequently seems to only work in one direction.. In this case though I think it's fair.
You wouldn't expect a female marathon runner (at peak fitness) to beat a male runner (also at peak), for example.
You're right, I wouldn't. But then they don't compete against each other do they :)
My point is is that this is an overall competition of mental and physical abilities where the men and women compete against each other directly. Why should a person gain an advantage just because they're not physically as capable?
You're right, I wouldn't. But then they don't compete against each other do they :)
But why don't they compete against each other?
My point is is that this is an overall competition of mental and physical abilities where the men and women compete against each other directly. Why should a person gain an advantage just because they're not physically as capable?
It's not an advantage because they're not physically as capable. It's an advantage because females on average are not physically as capable. God (if you believe in one) designed them for other purposes. :)
The alternative is to have two entirely separate Krypton Factor competitions.
Equality is a complete nonsense anyway when it comes to matters of the body. If men and women were truly equal, then men would be capable of making babies.
But why don't they compete against each other?
I know why they don't compete against each other. I know there are physical differences.
The alternative is to have two entirely separate Krypton Factor competitions.
Coolio, suits me.
To me, it's like a woman wanting to play football with the men but asking the men to only tackle at 80% of the toughness they normally would. Or maybe a woman could play rugby with men but be exempt from scrums?
All I'm saying is, if you want to compete against each other then do it. If don't, don't.
Matblack
07-01-2009, 12:41
Sorry don't agree; there are areas where women are superier to men and visa versa but the only test that features on the show is skewed one way (towards the men), to balance this the women get a slight time advantage. Its a handicap race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_race) designed to even out the advantage and make a more even outcome, by no means is it a perfect solution, but it is fairer than no advanntage at all. I would put money on the fact that if you removed the handicap that men would move up the rankings over the whole series of tests and you'd be less likey to see a female winner (by no means would it prove impossible though).
If the purpose of the program was to prove that men are stronger over an assault course than women I would run the two parallell but its not, its a compromise to allow the sexes to compete on 'equal' (handicaped to even advantage) terms over a whole series of tests with only one test giving an advantage in one direction.
MB
OK, here's another angle on this.
It's 2012. The London Olympics and there's a new event, the mixed 100m. Men and woman can choose to compete in this event together. Should the women be given a head start?
They should have a ironing or cleaning race to even it out, only way to be fair :p
[/runs]
Matblack
07-01-2009, 12:43
OK, here's another angle on this.
It's 2012. The London Olympics and there's a new event, the mixed 100m. Men and woman can choose to compete in this event together. Should the women be given a head start?
No, its a mixed event which the contestants enter knowing they will run on equal terms, on the KF the male and female contestents are all aware of the handicaping in the obsticle race when they enter.
MB
I do see what you're saying MB, I just don't agree :p
The show is what it is. A mix of mental and physical.
MB, you have the right words, again. Grrr. :p
Totally agree with you though.
I would certainly complain if the mental challenges were handicapped, but the physical seems fair enough. Actually, if women claim they're so good at multi-tasking, maybe one of the tests should be skewed the other way. :p I didn't see the first round of this weeks' show, but the one the previous week was an utter bastard. :shocked:
They should have a ironing or cleaning race to even it out, only way to be fair :p
But give the bloke a head start? ;D
It's a gaaaaaaaaaaaame!
My nine eggs... as well as being physically disadvantaged, us ladies have to lob these things called norks around with us as well. Thus, I think it's fair ;)
In the Police in Hampshire, when training Specials, ladies were given longer to complete the assault course than men (same went for the running) :) It just... makes sense!
In the Police in Hampshire, when training Specials ladies were given longer to complete the assault course than men (same went for the running) :) It just... makes sense!
But that's not a competition with a winner. It's something with a (I assume) minimum time you need to beat.
lol!
I get what you're saying you equality pooper scooper but agree with the MB :) To make it even and equal you need to give the ladies a chance!
Like golf! Ladies have a tee further forward than the mens cos they canny batter the ball further due to their physical build!! Is that unfair?!
(Although, I refuse to tee off from the ladies but that's because I'm a stubborn mule :p)
I have to admit, if I was put on an assault course against you I would be insulted if you gave me a head start and annoyed, because if I won it you'd be all "ooh but you got a 5 second head start!"
Davey_Pitch
07-01-2009, 13:02
I have to admit, if I was put on an assault course against you I would be insulted if you gave me a head start and annoyed, because if I won it you'd be all "ooh but you got a 5 second head start!"
I'd only say that if you beat me by less than 5 seconds. If you extended the lead I'd be keeping my gob shut :D
Like golf! Ladies have a tee further forward than the mens cos they canny batter the ball further due to their physical build!! Is that unfair?!
If they're competing directly against the men, yes :D
Can you accept this then Desmo-bum-face?:
Men and Woman can be mentally equal (General knowledge etc)
HOWEVER...
Men and Woman can't be physically equal?
If you can accept the above, then you will understand why it is only fair to give the advantage in the game to the ladies! Otherwise... it's an unfair game!
Can I just say I have never watched this program so I'm comparing it in my head to a gladiator style program with quizzes between the hunky monkey stuff!
Something that annoys me with Gladiators though is how the contestants can sometimes fight/battle/be against different opponents! That sucks!!
Re Gladiators, skip to 7:10. :D
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnKP6vddE4
Justsomebloke
07-01-2009, 14:32
It really depends how much I fancy a woman on how much of an allowance I make for her, Sad but Blatantly Honest ;)
Pumpkinstew
07-01-2009, 14:38
Women have a higher body fat% and shorter stride length then men. ON AVERAGE.
Allowing a slight headstart on an obstacle course designed and built by men for men seems entirely reasonable.
If I had to do the 100m with a ceiling set at 5'8" I'd rightly claim that at 6' I was disadvantaged compared to someone only 5'6".
Can you accept this then Desmo-bum-face?:
Men and Woman can be mentally equal (General knowledge etc)
HOWEVER...
Men and Woman can't be physically equal?
If you can accept the above, then you will understand why it is only fair to give the advantage in the game to the ladies! Otherwise... it's an unfair game!
There are some mental skills that women are proven to be better in than men
So no, I don't agree :p
If I had to do the 100m with a ceiling set at 5'8" I'd rightly claim that at 6' I was disadvantaged compared to someone only 5'6".
Not. It just means that you'd be **** at the sport of running 100m with a low ceiling. Just in the same way that with me being a short arse, I'd be crap at the high jump. Or maybe I should be allowed a box to jump off of seeing as I'm disadvantaged? :p
I think this may be contentious, but women will never have (in general) the same physical ability as a man, and as such this makes it fair. On average though a fit man and fit woman will be very similar for tasks such as running and endurance, however when it comes to upper body strength and physically demanding (strength point of view) then the men in general will have an advantage.
For example pitching me up against my sister for example although she's healthy and fit I would anihilate her on that assault course. Pitch me up against a professional female triathelete it will be a lot closer and quite possibly may lose but that's the top 1% of female performance vs and average bloke (me).
If you take the bell curve for population fitness and distribution, men will always have a physical advantage over women by default.
That's my view on it and as such I feel it is fair.
Justsomebloke
07-01-2009, 14:51
Your back is looking Great Will, Good effort & I pick You to represent us against our strongest female member :cool:
We Win me thinks :p
I think people are kind of missing what I'm saying. I KNOW women aren't as physically capable. I don't expect them to be so we don't need to keep going over how they're not as strong as the men (not picking at your post Will, plenty have said it).
I'm just questioning whether it should be taken in to consideration on an all-round skills show :)
I guess more disagree with me than I thought would though in all honesty :)
Matblack
07-01-2009, 15:06
You could if you wanted to do it as fairly as possible time every athlete over the course ten times and the handicap them based on their average time so the aim was to have them perform to the best of their ability. Then you would be handicaping based on their physical fitness and ability, then the whole assault course event would be about who performed on the day not what sex they were. However this is time consuming and expensive, if you did it you would almost certainly find that over hundreds of amalgamated races that women were on average 'a bit' slower then men, the cheapest way to impliment this is to then give women an arbitary time advantage rather than test all competitors 10 times and take the average.
The question is do you want a situation where the aim is to produce a level playing field giving everyone playing a fair chance of winning (as in a golf handicap), do you want to prove a theory which we already know they answer to (on average men are faster over a combined strength and endurance course (KF with no handicap) or do you want to make a watchable TV programe which uses an arbitary figure to have a stab at making things fair, costs little to makke and makes a nod towards the idea of a level playing field (KF as is).
At the end of the day if you take away the 5 second advantage its likely that men will win more often than women, the only thing which is proved is that men are faster over an assult course but it will give people the ability to say that men are better than women at the Kripton Factor. :/
My answer: you don't race both sexes against one another, you race them independantly and then award points on a sliding scale to the winners of both sexes, that way no one is handicaped or advantaged but you do have to make sure that you have an even number of represenatives of each sex
or
Have a heptathlon style arangement where there is a table which awards points based on time over the course cross referenced to height, weight, sex and cardio fitness, but it wouldn't be as much fun to watch.
By the way I haven't seen this program since about 1985
MB
Matblack
07-01-2009, 15:08
I think people are kind of missing what I'm saying. I KNOW women aren't as physically capable. I don't expect them to be so we don't need to keep going over how they're not as strong as the men (not picking at your post Will, plenty have said it).
I'm just questioning whether it should be taken in to consideration on an all-round skills show :)
I guess more disagree with me than I thought would though in all honesty :)
I see your point but the assault plays to a strength that is inherient and obvious in the male of the species, although women 'may' have a very slight advantage in other tests it is nowhere near as definative as the men's advantage in assault course. Most scientists would argue that it would take a large number of tests to prove the womens descrete advantage in a mental test but far fewer to prove male dominance in strength and endurance.
I suggest we introduce a rythmic gymnastics event in to KF to even things up, this would play to female agility and flexibility and we'd get to see women in leotards and I 'might' watch.
MB
I think people are kind of missing what I'm saying. I KNOW women aren't as physically capable. I don't expect them to be so we don't need to keep going over how they're not as strong as the men (not picking at your post Will, plenty have said it).
I'm just questioning whether it should be taken in to consideration on an all-round skills show :)
I guess more disagree with me than I thought would though in all honesty :)
No no, I completely see your point, but the point I was trying to make albeit badly was that whilst 2 brains and logic can be nearly the same, physical activity is never going to be that closely matched. Men will have an advantage by default. Sure women may use lateral thinking side of their brains better etc... but not to such an advantage as a man has over a woman physically.
Justsomebloke
07-01-2009, 15:26
I have seen a few Female Thai fighters that can match men physically in every way although peeing standing up is messy.
I get where you are coming from though mate I was just taking the P earlier. Like MB says though a Handicap system is the only fair way but you would have to include Both sexes & spread the lot.
Matblack
07-01-2009, 15:28
I have seen a few Female Thai fighters that can match men physically in every way although peeing standing up is messy.
I get where you are coming from though mate I was just taking the P earlier. Like MB says though a Handicap system is the only fair way but you would have to include Both sexes & spread the lot.
If you can combine your 'spreading the lot' with my 'rythmmic gymnastics' idea I think we have a viable porn show.
MB
Justsomebloke
07-01-2009, 15:30
I'm in :D
Admiral Huddy
07-01-2009, 16:27
The contest in the eyes of the KF is to determine who is the fittest from the contestants. Anyone who is half fit would find the course a breeze. However, the course is mixed in that one person may find one obsticle easy yet hard for another of similar fitness. So there wouldn't be too much between two fit people, reagrdless of their gender.
I don't watch the show so not quite sure how it works but I know if I wanted to do something like that I wouldn't expect or want a head start. I'd rather lose gracefully than have a head start and still lose.
On a side note, when I was younger and into sports I beat everyone in my class in an assault course by a fair amount and that was with no head start! :D
Is now the best time to say the woman still came last by over a minute?
Pumpkinstew
07-01-2009, 16:39
Not. It just means that you'd be **** at the sport of running 100m with a low ceiling. Just in the same way that with me being a short arse, I'd be crap at the high jump. Or maybe I should be allowed a box to jump off of seeing as I'm disadvantaged? :p
If high jump was an event in the Krypton Factor then, yeah, I think you'd have a case for being alowed to use a box to make up for your physical handicap.
The point, which you either ignored or missed, was the event apparatus has a bias in it which is being alleviated by the head start
I do see your point about the 5 second head start opening up a can of worms regarding levelling the playing field. You could argue that left handers have a slight advantage/disadvantage in the spatial acuity or flight simulator tests (if they still use the old format), but as MB pointed out this is not as clear cut scientifically as the male physical advantage in the assault course.
Admiral Huddy
07-01-2009, 16:41
Is now the best time to say the woman still came last by over a minute?
Of course but please post pics of your gonads in the morning ;)
Is now the best time to say the woman still came last by over a minute?
See my post above yours. That's my point exactly! :)
The point, which you either ignored or missed, was the event apparatus has a bias in it which is being alleviated by the head start.
Sorry, missed :)
I know there's a bias towards the men, but I still see it as a direct competition between people so don't see any need for the bias to be corrected.
I guess this is where my viewpoint differs. I see this as a direct competition between everyone and I don't see why it should be handicapped.
I know it was a silly programme, but take that Total Wipeout that was on BBC1 the other night. Men, women, young, old...all on exactly the same assault course doing the same thing. Nobody was put at an advantage or disadvantage. I guess I see KF as the same thing.
Of course but please post pics of your gonads in the morning ;)
Stop hassling me for pics of my gonads or I'll call the police this time.
I think you should get bonus time like htey do in gladiators for the amount of points you're ahead. So that everyone has as much chance as the next. So let us say that out of the challenges the blokes won some but lost some and had a 3s head start one day but the woman in the next show had a 7s start because she did better in the previous events - surely that would make it fairer?
I know it was a silly programme, but take that Total Wipeout that was on BBC1 the other night. Men, women, young, old...all on exactly the same assault course doing the same thing. Nobody was put at an advantage or disadvantage. I guess I see KF as the same thing.
Not all assault courses are built equal, and they're not all built to test the same things. The KF assault course is the sort of thing you'd find in the military, and is a plain old physical ability test. Total Wipeout is as much about skill as it is fitness - go at it all out and you'll almost certainly come a cropper.
For example, the balls. Has anyone ever got across them? Best policy there may well be just to dive in the water and ignore the balls. The wall is all technique.
I think this is one of those were no-one is going to get convinced either way and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Unless, of course, someone knows the producers of the show and can ask them to explain themselves.
Stop hassling me for pics of my gonads or I'll call the police this time.
You just want PC Pebs to come cuff you up don't you :p
Is that what they call it these days? ;D
Piggymon
07-01-2009, 19:09
Pitch me up against a professional female triathelete it will be a lot closer and quite possibly may lose but that's the top 1% of female performance vs and average bloke (me).
.
Come off it .. you'd lose big time ;D
A Place of Light
07-01-2009, 19:28
OK, here's another angle on this.
It's 2012. The London Olympics and there's a new event, the mixed 100m. Men and woman can choose to compete in this event together. Should the women be given a head start?
Yes.
If you allow men and women to compete side by side then if you don't give the women some kind of advantage then you're creating an event that the women cannot win bar some unusual circumstances such as an accident.
As much as some people don't want to hear it, men and women are built differently in so many respects. In single sex contests then each compete against their peers, but for a mixed event an advantage should be given to the females where possible.
Come off it .. you'd lose big time ;D
Hey leave me to have some pride, I did admit I might lose, not big time though! I have trained with a few (not professionals obviously) so I do know what they're capable of! :eek:
Piggymon
07-01-2009, 19:41
You should have pride, you're a fit dude but against a triathlete I doubt many people would stand a chance unless they were in the same sport themselves :)
I'd love to give that assualt course a try myself to see how I did :D
Were all the guys the same age incidentally? I know the old Krypton Factor also took age into account as well as gender.
You should have pride, you're a fit dude but against a triathlete I doubt many people would stand a chance unless they were in the same sport themselves :)
I'd love to give that assualt course a try myself to see how I did :D
Oh totally fitness wise they'd walk all over me, but assault courses are a bit different I reckon no as it's more of a short sprint like thing no? Still, I'd love to give 'em a run for their money - how cool would it be to say I came 15s after a professional triathelete?!! :cool: (even if it were a smelly girl :p)
Shall we find out where it is and give it a go? Maybe this could be a meet - a Krypton Factor/Assault course meet!!! :D
Were all the guys the same age incidentally? I know the old Krypton Factor also took age into account as well as gender.
No the age range was probably around 10-15 years different. A young studenty type of bloke and a very middle aged bloke.
Piggymon
07-01-2009, 20:21
Oh totally fitness wise they'd walk all over me, but assault courses are a bit different I reckon no as it's more of a short sprint like thing no? Still, I'd love to give 'em a run for their money - how cool would it be to say I came 15s after a professional triathelete?!! :cool: (even if it were a smelly girl :p)
Shall we find out where it is and give it a go? Maybe this could be a meet - a Krypton Factor/Assault course meet!!! :D
Boys smell not girls :p ;) ;D
I'd bloody love to give it a go .. really want to go on Gladiators as well :cool:
As much as some people don't want to hear it, men and women are built differently in so many respects.
Who's that then? :confused:
Were all the guys the same age incidentally? I know the old Krypton Factor also took age into account as well as gender.
No. Youngest was 21 I think, student. The two other guys were late 30's early 40's ish I think. Funnily enough, the young student lad was terrible because, well, he's a student and didn't do much ;D
Eunice Huthart has made quite a career for herself, it has to be said. Good on her.
Boys smell not girls :p ;) ;D
I'd bloody love to give it a go .. really want to go on Gladiators as well :cool:
Hell yeah - I'd LOVE to do Gladiators!!! I wonder what the trials are like and how I'd get on? The new Glads look quite girly compared to the old ones though - though the women look more butch.
I wanted to be a stuntman when I was younger. My parents told me not be be crazy :(
Piggymon
07-01-2009, 21:31
Maybe Piggy could do that, being so tiny she could double up as a stunt double for young actors :D
By that you mean children yes? ;) :p
So you didn't fancy the first, but you ignored the second?? :p
Dammit I walked into that one didn't I?! :o
Piggymon
07-01-2009, 21:36
I re-worded that several times before hitting submit ;D
/fluffles :D
A Place of Light
08-01-2009, 00:47
Who's that then? :confused:
Not aimed at you at all.....or anyone else here for that matter.
But the world has more than its fair share of people who will insist than men and women are equal.
This simply isn't true.
The sexes compliment each other as we both have different strengths and weaknesses.
The sexes compliment each other as we both have different strengths and weaknesses.
Like, men - getting the lids off jars, women - ironing.
Domestic bliss.
:)
Like, men - getting the lids off jars, women - ironing.
Domestic bliss.
:)
It your case its women getting lids of jars and you ironing, right? :p
Admiral Huddy
08-01-2009, 13:01
I want my own female Gladiator!
Greenlizard0
08-01-2009, 16:48
I want my own female Gladiator!
Jet or Lightening from the older series.
*pwoot!* :D
To answer the question I don't think it's fair. If women want to compete against men, then they compete against them, no byes or advantages to help them.
Von Smallhausen
08-01-2009, 20:53
It was the same when I did my initial fitness test for the police.
The lasses didn't have to do full push ups like the lads and could lean on a bar at an angle.
One of them had huge tits as I recall so I didn't mind.
Admiral Huddy
09-01-2009, 09:20
The contest in the eyes of the KF is to determine who is the fittest from the contestants. Anyone who is half fit would find the course a breeze. However, the course is mixed in that one person may find one obsticle easy yet hard for another of similar fitness. So there wouldn't be too much between two fit people, reagrdless of their gender.
Rest my case in last nights show.
Missed it last night. What happened?
Admiral Huddy
09-01-2009, 11:25
Fit bird was fast and came second overall leaving one bloke gasping :D. Despite the advantage, she still would have beaten him. If anything, the unfit bloke should have the advantge but then their are diffrent measures of fitness which is what the contest measures.
Unfair advantage as it's such a huge start, but personally I'm more disappointed at how they're not showing all contestants running at once. Somehow having only pairs running isn't quite as enjoyable!
I agree with that. I've only seen one show, but it was just 'wrong' that they didn't have all four competing together. In fact, I didn't think much of the coverage anyway - far too much of the 'modern' camera angle naffness and only showing a few random bits because the course was too long to include in full.
I need to figure out when it's on next and actually watch it again. :)
Yeah true, even the commentary seems a bit dull in comparison to older series. Fair enough it's a "serious" contest but they could at least inject some tension into the race.
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