Becoming Microsoft Certified (or similar)

[Blighter]

Is it worth it?

I think my stong point in IT is network/server management so am thinking about getting a Microsoft Certification in Server 2003/2007 or maybe doing my Network+ and A+ exams.

Do you think they are worth it? Every single job I've looked at (and that's >100) say they want people with 2years+ experience. How are you meant to get into IT? :(

[Admiral Huddy]

What do you actually need it for?

You can get MCP very easily, in fact you can call yourself MCP certified pass or fail :p

That said, you need this to go onto your MSCE/MSCA

Personally, after passing both A+ and Network+ I had had enough. These are only part of the way to MSCA not MSCE but were enough for me for a marketting gimick i.e. "Certified Engineer" with a nice badge that 99% of people don't have a clue what it is.. but it's a comforting gesture..

[Blighter]

But don't you work for yourself? I'm after this to get a job in Network Support/Administration.

[luke]

But don't you work for yourself? I'm after this to get a job in Network Support/Administration.

just B/S your way in ;)

[Jingo]

My brother is an MCSE and works as a Senior Systems Administrator for the NZDF; he learned the lot through self-taught means and he is very successful due to the commitments he makes to his continued self-development.

He applied for the jobs against people with much greater levels of experience in the industry, and sure this made things harder for him, in terms of gaining interviews etc but when he did get them, he prepared well and proved his worth.

If you are able to covey yourself as a worthy candidate with the ability to adapt well, learn quickly and be a proactive employee then most switched on employers will give you a chance, greatly experienced or not.

[luke]

My brother is an MCSE and works as a Senior Systems Administrator for the NZDF; he learned the lot through self-taught means and he is very successful due to the commitments he makes to his continued self-development.

He applied for the jobs against people with much greater levels of experience in the industry, and sure this made things harder for him, in terms of gaining interviews etc but when he did get them, he prepared well and proved his worth.

If you are able to covey yourself as a worthy candidate with the ability to adapt well, learn quickly and be a proactive employee then most switched on employers will give you a chance, greatly experienced or not.

great advice and having met blighter i know he is a confident chap :cool:

just go for it blighter, apply for everything you can, your bound to get a few job offers mate :)

[Burble]

How are you meant to get into IT? :(

Start at the bottom and work your way up. It worked for me.

BTW I guess you meant Server 2008 not 2007?

[Blighter]

Oops yea, had office on the mind :p

[Admiral Huddy]

But don't you work for yourself? I'm after this to get a job in Network Support/Administration.


I have two jobs :)

At the bank, MSCE and or MSCA is not a requirement on the desktop team. In fact, the guys here only have experience. One has A+ I think :)

[Blighter]

I have two jobs :)

At the bank, MSCE and or MSCA is not a requirement on the desktop team. In fact, the guys here only have experience. One has A+ I think :)

But this is my point... where do you get experience if you need experience to get it? GAHHHHHH :'(;D

[phykell]

It's absolutely worth doing Blighter. Stop prevaricating. Get yourself some qualifications, get a job with them to get some experience, learn as much as you can and go contracting.

I've told you this before TBH and so has Ben (a contractor for many years). If you're good at what you do, there is always work out there.

Get to it :thumbup:

[Blighter]

It's absolutely worth doing Blighter. Stop prevaricating. Get yourself some qualifications, get a job with them to get some experience, learn as much as you can and go contracting.

I've told you this before TBH and so has Ben (a contractor for many years). If you're good at what you do, there is always work out there.

Get to it :thumbup:

OK :) (I'm having one of those "get off your arse and do something with your life" days :p)

Only thing is.. Which one(s)? There are so many! I want to do Network Support/Admin stuff so I presume that Network+ and a MS certification would be best?

[phykell]

Ring someone like Firebrand Training and ask them what they think - the courses are complex these days and you probably need professional advice on the exact path you wish to take :)

[Blighter]

Will give them a call tomorrow. Thanks :)

[cleanbluesky]

Stop prevaricating.

AARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Dont pontificate

[phykell]

AARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Dont pontificate
What's your problem (the immmediate one) now then?

[phykell]

Oh, I presume you mean the choice of word. There's nothing wrong in using the word, "prevaricate" in this instance. He's asking what he should do already knowing the inescapable answer. In this way, the question is really rhetorical so he *is* prevaricating.

For example, I need to buy a TV but I'm asking around whether or not I should buy one. The inescapable truth is that I need to buy a TV. I'm not pontificating about whether or not to buy one necessarily; but I am prevaricating - putting off the inevitable, denying to myself that, in actual fact, I *do* need one :)

[cleanbluesky]

Oh, I presume you mean the choice of word. There's nothing wrong in using the word, "prevaricate" in this instance. He's asking what he should do already knowing the inescapable answer. In this way, the question is really rhetorical so he *is* prevaricating.

It's a perfectly cromulent word.

For example, I need to buy a TV but I'm asking around whether or not I should buy one. The inescapable truth is that I need to buy a TV. I'm not pontificating about whether or not to buy one necessarily; but I am prevaricating - putting off the inevitable, denying to myself that, in actual fact, I *do* need one :)

I think you mean inexorable.

[divine]

Wow, it's like a game of who can use http://www.synonym.com/ the best.

[iCraig]

Wow, it's like a game of who can use http://www.synonym.com/ the best.

Don't be so obtuse, the linguistic gymnastics from these two are both amiable to the ears. :p

[phykell]

It's a perfectly cromulent word. I think you mean inexorable.
I deliberately chose the word, "inescapable" as I felt it to be both more meaningful and illustrative. Language is supposed to convey meaning, and that was exactly my intention. In this instance, Blighter cannot escape from the truth, it's going to hunt him down. Perhaps you could describe it as unyielding but I prefer my choice :cool:

Blighter is a geek - he's like a piece of Blackpool rock! If you cut him in half you'd see the word "GEEK" :D

But why waste time concentrating on someone's career choice, a potentially-life changing point in a person's life, when we could be discussing etymology, eh? ;)

[Blighter]

Someone just suggested thinking about going to uni... is it worth the amount of time + money or should I be looking at getting experience?

[cleanbluesky]

I deliberately chose the word, "inescapable" as I felt it to be both more meaningful and illustrative. Language is supposed to convey meaning, and that was exactly my intention. In this instance, Blighter cannot escape from the truth, it's going to hunt him down. Perhaps you could describe it as unyielding but I prefer my choice :cool:

Blighter is a geek - he's like a piece of Blackpool rock! If you cut him in half you'd see the word "GEEK" :D

But why waste time concentrating on someone's career choice, a potentially-life changing point in a person's life, when we could be discussing etymology, eh? ;)

That's a straw man, we're discussing heuristics from a phenomenological point of view with the acknowledged solipsism and perhaps a twist of ontology.

[Blighter]

I deliberately chose the word, "inescapable" as I felt it to be both more meaningful and illustrative. Language is supposed to convey meaning, and that was exactly my intention. In this instance, Blighter cannot escape from the truth, it's going to hunt him down. Perhaps you could describe it as unyielding but I prefer my choice :cool:

Blighter is a geek - he's like a piece of Blackpool rock! If you cut him in half you'd see the word "GEEK" :D

But why waste time concentrating on someone's career choice, a potentially-life changing point in a person's life, when we could be discussing etymology, eh? ;)

That's a straw man, we're discussing heuristics from a phenomenological point of view with the acknowledged solipsism and perhaps a twist of ontology.

Well I'm lost :confused:

[phykell]

Well I'm lost :confused:
So is he - hopefully, he'll disappear up his own tailpipe eventually :D

[cleanbluesky]

Someone just suggested thinking about going to uni... is it worth the amount of time + money or should I be looking at getting experience?

That depends on what your aims and expectations are. It also depends on how accessible Uni would be to you and what career you would like to take.

I'm sure a few people here will say something about experience in the IT industry and to some extent they would be right - but education is about more than just being eligible for a job or a role within a company - to some extent it forces you to think for yourself, which is generally useful.

[Wryel]

Is it worth it?

I think my stong point in IT is network/server management so am thinking about getting a Microsoft Certification in Server 2003/2007 or maybe doing my Network+ and A+ exams.

Do you think they are worth it? Every single job I've looked at (and that's >100) say they want people with 2years+ experience. How are you meant to get into IT? :(

This is how it worked for me:

Get a degree unrelated to IT. (This is optional ;) )

My first job was in EPOS (installing tills etc) half IT, half shop fitter. I got that job through my existing IT knowledge and sounding desperate to get a job in IT where had the chance to learn. Stayed there for 7 months and went to PC Servicecall (PC World tech support) for 6 months which was hell but it possibly helped me get my next job as a cover engineer in an IT company. That was basically covering holidays for 2nd line roles we covered in the local area. Stayed there for about 18 months. Then I moved to London and got a 2nd line role in another IT company and I've been with the company for about 2 1/2 years. I'm now at one of their most high profile sites (posh investment bank) and I still don't have any qualifications apart from my ITIL foundation which isn't technical although very popular.

For about the first 2 years I told companies I was studying to eventually get an MCSE but I never actually took any exams so I don't think that really helped me. There's a guy on our helpdesk that has an MCSE and he is useless. No common sense and clearly not motivated at all. By all means study but you need to back it up with experience so don't go for an MCSE or anything similar until you've been in IT for a while.

If you have no IT experience I would say go for a helpdesk job that isn't all technical and work your way up. I've been put in to do my MCSDT (Microsoft Certified Desktop Technician) which is apparently quite easy but I have to do it to get my MCSE.

[Del Lardo]

Agree with what Wyrel has said, looked into doing an MCSE when I finished University and was advised against it without proper experience to back it up.

As for whether you should go to Uni, well that's a decision only you can make. I had a great time at Uni (too great if I'm honest as the end result was a fail) but I did leave £11k in debt which I'm still paying off now much to my annoyance. I still consider myself to be lucky in that respect as I'll have paid off my loan in 2 years time (same month I turn 30) and I know plenty of people who will still be paying their loans off when they're 40+

I'd also think very carefully about whether you actually want to work in IT. I know there a number of IT workers on here who can offer advise as well but for me working with computers on a daily basis has pretty much destroyed any interest I once had in computers. I'm lucky that my career path is allowing me to move into technical presales engineering (which not only pays better but means less computers) but if I couldn't then I would have to seriously consider a full career change as computers for me have stopped being a hobby and become a mean to an end.

Hopefully not been too negative as I've just dumped my thoughts down but there's so many people that see "IT" as a career nowadays as they know a bit about computers when they'd be far better looking a bit further afield.

[Chuckles]

As others have said really, although it will be a slight advantage, experience is far, far more desired by employers.

I worked up from doing tech support and I think you would find most people did something similar.

If you can get a helpdesk/first line support job in a decent company, they will pay to put you through the exams if they feel you need them.

About 4 years ago, I did tech support at the Microsoft TechEd conference in Amsterdam and half of the people with MSCE's were totally clueless. They put DHCP servers on the wrong VLAN's which screwed up the whole network and struggled to get laptops connected to the WLAN :p

[Chuckles]

This is how I did it if you find it useful.

1) Got a summer job doing data entry at the Body Shop head offices after I graduated (Degree was Philosophy, so not IT related :p )
2) Learned VBA and automated my job
3) Got offered a perm job writing reports on AS400 systems
4) Moved to another company doing first line support
5) Promoted to second line
6) Promoted to Applications administrator (managing finance/production systems)
7) Promoted to Systems administrator (although retaining all the applications stuff)

You have to be incredibly flexible in these kinds of jobs. You can go through quiet periods if everything is working OK, but during projects, I've done 80+ hours a week and have ended up doing 31 hours straight once.

When you are on first/second line, most companies will expect you to be on call 24/7 for a week every month or 2 depending on your rota.

It's an incredibly thankless job, because even when you complete a major install, you only ever get grief from managers who moan about tiny problems while completely ignoring the major benefits. The hours can screw with relationships as well (not sure that's a problem for you :p ;) ). But me and an ex ended up breaking up and that was a major factor because I'd be getting calls when we were on holiday etc and in the middle of the night.

I probably would have taken a different direction if I was to go back 8 years. Even if I couldn't do an "A list" job (something in music), you can make as much money doing office work by doing finance and not have all the grief.

[Chuckles]

Do you think they are worth it? Every single job I've looked at (and that's >100) say they want people with 2years+ experience. How are you meant to get into IT? :(

I kind of hinted at this in my other post, but companies are more likely to recruit from within, so I'd suggest getting a temp job in an office and helping out people with IT problems. We've had more people join helpdesk via that route than we've recruited externally.

[Blighter]

Thanks Jon, your help is appreciated :)

From what you and others have said I think I'll aim at getting a semi-IT related job like data-entry, PC fitting, or whatnot, and see how it goes.
I don't start work till 5pm tomorrow so will spend the day looking around job sites (again :p) and see what comes up. May even visit the local recruitment office :eek: :p


Thanks for everybodys help, it is greatly appreciated :)

[Mark]

IT qualifications that are worth the paper they're written on (i.e. not things like MCP that everyone and probably their dogs can get) may get your foot in the door if the qualification is relevant, but it can also be counter-productive if the employer prefers to do it their own way.

As for Uni, most everyone who has done an IT degree and had an IT career at the end will tell you that about 80% of what gets taught in a typical IT degree is needed only to get the bit of paper at the end, but Uni can be as much about life experience as study. In any event, it's a big commitment. Ask yourself whether you're prepared to spend 3 more years of your life studying. If you're not sure, then you're not. To nick something our CEO pinched from Yoda today - "do or do not, there is no try".

It's a fact though that nothing beats experience, so find a way onto the ladder that suits you and take it from there.

[MarcLister]

Having obtained permission from the OP (Herr Blighter) I'm hijacking this thread for my own dastardly evil ends! :D

Some of you might know that I finished Uni last summer. Haven't got a job since then. Had some near calls where I could have been in with a chance but ended up unlucky.

The closest was about 2 weeks ago with a company in London that does IT support for other companies. This company looked pretty cool and I thought I had a chance of at least getting a job interview until the woman I was emailing realised I didn't have an MCP or MCSE to my name. :(

She hinted that I might be able to earn myself an interview if I can get the MCP and MCSE letters after my name. Having realised that the CCNA is a bit too slutty and common to be taken seriously, on its own perhaps, I'm thinking I should try and get the MCP/MCSE exams taken, done and passed so I can increase the jobs I can apply to ones where the applicant needs MCP and MCSE! :D

Since I'm unemployed I've obviously got problems getting the experience part of the MCSE done but I was wondering if it is possible to get the official books and just sit down and learn/revise my arse out until I'm confident I can pass the exams.

I can get the books but I'm wondering what equipment/hardware/software I'll need to have a chance of doing this? Got two computers which ought to be connected but then Vista > XP networking seems almost impossible for me. :(

[GSXRMovistar]

Not a fan MCP/MCSE to be honest; years ago it held a lot of credit but these days far too many people who have them have only learnt what’s required to pass the exam rather than having good general experience both hands on and studying which allow them to pass the exam as a result.

It will help get the foot in the door or have agencies pass on your CV but when hiring I’m more interested in past experience and the candidates own description of his/hers skills/knowledge rather than if they have said qualification.

[MarcLister]

Not a fan MCP/MCSE to be honest; years ago it held a lot of credit but these days far too many people who have them have only learnt what’s required to pass the exam rather than having good general experience both hands on and studying which allow them to pass the exam as a result.

It will help get the foot in the door or have agencies pass on your CV but when hiring I’m more interested in past experience and the candidates own description of his/hers skills/knowledge rather than if they have said qualification.I hear what you say but I'm unemployed so I need to get a foot in the door or have agencies pass on my CV. Perhaps when I get a job I can get the skills I need and whatever other qualifications will help me but to actually get a job I need the MCP/MCSE.