View Full Version : Your faith...
When asked, I've always said I'm a Christian. I was brought up from a very young age to attend mass weekly and say my bed time prayers and so on. It was when I hit mid teens (oooh the rebellious age!) I started to question what it was I was doing every Sunday and why I was doing it.
For me... in short... I was going each week to a church where I "chanted" the same words over again. 90% of the readings I had already heard and most of the preaching between was about how *I* reject God and was a sinner, so I should ask for his forgiveness. He will then forgive me and does love me so I should be joyous.
This... began to grate on me. Eventually I spoke to my Ma (who worked at the presbytery) and said that although I believe there's a higher power of sorts out there, I do not feel right to attend church weekly to participate in what I felt was almost a cult like ceremony.
I then became an infrequent church visitor. I would pop in when I felt the need but was not keen about it.
It was about 4... possibly 5 years ago now that my feelings for the church and Christianity was really pushed for me. My Nanny had passed away and I was stood at the front of this beautiful church mourning the coffin next to me... when I suddenly became aware that the priest in front of me was telling me I was a sinner and I didn't deserve the life I was given. This... riled me. Beyond belief. Obviously it was an emotional time as it was but to tell me... after I had worked my bum off to do all I could to support my Nan and my family as she slowly died a horrible death that I was a sinner and need to ask for forgiveness... well screw that for a laugh.
I then resented going to Church. I didn't even feel the need/want to go at Christmas and Easter. I just... didn't want to do it.
On top of that, I had been giving it all a lot of thought. God. Supposedly this chap in the human form... created everything. I'd like to consider myself as quite an open minded person but how could this one chap create all of this around me? And not being funny, where did he come from then?! What about evolution, which I believe in? I've always felt the Bible was a glamorous book of morals with some flicker of true stories in it but no more.
What baffles me is that all of this seems so obvious to me... it just seems so unrealistic to believe in some of the Christian beliefs. But what baffles me even more than this... is there are SO many highly intellectual people who do believe in it. Believe the bible, believe in God and Jesus and so on. They're more intelligent than I these people... what am I not seeing?
Now... I'm just confused :p I think there could very well be some form of super power above us that started everything... but not in human form!! Soooo. Tonight. I am going to a Christianity Explored church course. I'm intrigued now by what they have to say. I don't think I will be contributing a lot to the evening but I'm certainly going to listen and try and absorb the logic in the Christian belief.
I think it will be interesting. I'm always up for learning more about different beliefs and so on... but hopefully this will help figure out what I feel in my head. This post doesn't really put across my full arguments particularly well (excuse me for that - I'm just whacking this down whilst I finish my afternoon cuppa tea break) but you get an idea of what I think :)
How do you guys and girls feel?
What baffles me is that all of this seems so obvious to me... it just seems so unrealistic to believe in some of the Christian beliefs. But what baffles me even more than this... is there are SO many highly intellectual people who do believe in it. Believe the bible, believe in God and Jesus and so on. They're more intelligent than I these people... what am I not seeing?
Even the most intelligent people can be afraid of death.
I didn't use to like being labelled, but now I can pretty much say I'm an atheist. It's weird that a part of me is almost afraid to admit this, like it's some sort of taboo. It definitely feels like in the last year there's been a sudden outpouring of atheism in the media, like it's the new 'coming out'. Maybe it's this that has given me more confidence in my beliefs.
Agnostic.
Why? Quite simple really, I don't think that we as a species have the ability yet, or perhaps ever, to fully understand the universe and how/why it was made. Any God we believe in seems "man made" to me and I doubt that if there is a God, he's one of the specific variants we worship.
However I don't think have the capacity in the opposite direct either, to say "There is no God" when we're still trying to find out how the universe works (CERN experiments) and we're still a total loss of why the big bang happened.
Basically, I'm open to the idea that there's a God, because let's face it, when it comes to the universe and its creation, I think it's wise to keep and open mind and say anything's possible. :)
Much the same as iCraig. I keep an open mind as I don't really know either way basically. :)
I probably come across more as an atheist though as I always question everything.
However I hate it when any belief is forced upon me by someone, or forced upon children. Doesn't seem right to me but I know that like everything else, there are people who wouldn't do that and people who would.
Matblack
10-03-2009, 16:01
My feelings on this matter are complicated, but I don't believe if there is a a 'god' anywhere that it cares about/ comprehends/ even realises the human race exists.
This sums it up pretty nicely for me
bBUc_kATGgg
MB
Stan_Lite
10-03-2009, 16:11
I always used to state that I was an atheist but tedious, argumentative types always claim that atheism is a form of religion and therefore contradicts itself. I can't be bothered to argue with them so I changed my status to non-believer. I think I'm going to change it again to apathetic - I really don't care whether there is a God or not. If there is, I'm going to burn in hell because I'm damn sure I won't worship Him/Her/It. If there isn't one, I'm no worse off and at least I've lived my life predominantly according to my own values rather than those imposed upon me by some self righteous religious group.
I am perfectly comfortable with people who are religious - as long as they don't bother me about it, we get on fine.
I always used to state that I was an atheist but tedious, argumentative types always claim that atheism is a form of religion and therefore contradicts itself. I can't be bothered to argue with them so I changed my status to non-believer. I think I'm going to change it again to apathetic - I really don't care whether there is a God or not. If there is, I'm going to burn in hell because I'm damn sure I won't worship Him/Her/It. If there isn't one, I'm no worse off and at least I've lived my life predominantly according to my own values rather than those imposed upon me by some self righteous religious group.
I am perfectly comfortable with people who are religious - as long as they don't bother me about it, we get on fine.
I'll go with Stan on this as regards to my faith/lack there of and my attitude towards people that are religious.
Even though I went to church as a kid (not too often with family but then every Sunday as a choir boy) I can't remember actually thinking that there is a God and that I should worship him.
Briggykins
10-03-2009, 16:31
I'm in exactly the same boat as Bigstan. Semantics mean I'm technically an agnostic, because I believe in God as much as I believe in the Celestial Teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot), but I'd believe in either if they were proved to me. Personally I see that as atheism, but what the hey.
I'm going to burn in hell because I'm damn sure I won't worship Him/Her/It.
Yeah, and this is the bit that riles me about Christian teachings. I (try to) live my life causing as little hurt or harm as possible, basically in the same way as Christians try to. I think any God worth His salt would consider that enough. I don't believe God, if one exists, has an ego that needs fulfilling by my worshipping Him.
Will you all come with me to this meeting this evening :p
I'm glad there's other people out there who think similar to me. I consider myself to be quite a strong willed person but if I come back this evening brain washed, please could someone do the honours and slap me silly until I snap out of it? ;)
Agnostic.
My mum made me go to church (seventh day adventists) but always said she just wanted to know what she belived and when we were old enough make are own minds up.
For me the bible has far to many inconsistency where it contradicts each other.
It also annoys me that many people do not question their faith, even if they choose it when an adult.
I mean churches like CoE we know why they where set up and not from the bible.
That you have a leader of Catholics who can change gods rules, decides who goes to heaven and is worshipped like an idol. Yet all those things are strictly forbidden in the bible.
Also most places in the bible refer to the punishment of sin to be death and no hell. Only a few passages relate to a lake of fire but even then hardly with the words eternal and how can a loving God create an eternal hell. Not very loving is it.
The bible says that the earth with the sinned will be burnt with fire and the righteous will walk on the ashes of the sinners. And that the dead will raise first and go to heaven. Not that as soon as you die you go to heaven.
Basically what I'm saying is personal faith is great. Mindless large churches are rubbish. they do not like you questioning their silly believes. People should go to an independent church where everyone has different takes and actually sit down and study the bible and question each other. Or do it at home.
Slinwagh
10-03-2009, 17:39
People are free to follow whatever religion they choose, however I personally find it offensive when people knock on my door in order to speak to me about their religion.
I find it very difficult to see past the hypocrisy of religion, the Catholic church being a prime example, the leader, a former member of the Nazi youth, sitting in one of the worlds most opulent palaces, eating and drinking the finest produce money can buy, surround by priceless artefacts and works of art. Then there is the billions in cash and property that is under it's control. Every so often the Pope then has the audacity to stand up and talk about poverty.
Apathetic agnostic.
IMO there is insufficient evidence to suggest the existence or non-existence of God/a God/any being of that nature, but whether there is or not simply doesn't hold any interest to me.
Pheebs I know what you mean about sermons and suchlike, I grimace whenever attending religious weddings where you are basically thanking God for everything, asking God to look after you etc - er hang on, the reason we got this far is because we did it with the support and help of each other and our friends and families, not some supernatural being making things happen for us. Really annoys me for some reason but there we go.
Briggykins
10-03-2009, 19:30
Pheebs I know what you mean about sermons and suchlike, I grimace whenever attending religious weddings where you are basically thanking God for everything, asking God to look after you etc - er hang on, the reason we got this far is because we did it with the support and help of each other and our friends and families, not some supernatural being making things happen for us. Really annoys me for some reason but there we go.
And hymns! Have you ever actually listened to the lyrics of some of those? Some of them sound like the ramblings of a mental patient.
Most folks here will know how I feel about this stuff, but as we've got a fair few new people...
I'm an active, passionately believing, God worshipping Christian.
I was initially raised mostly outside of the church, did sunday school for a little while but that was it. Started regularly attending a church when we moved to Sussex, probably around 88-89, so I'd have been 8 or 9. Sang in the choir for many years. The church never did "it" for me. It's dull, heavy on the liturgy (structured lines and responses) and old hymns. Musically old hymns can be very beautiful, but lyrically they never worked for me.
Consider how many books you read from 19th century and earlier that have any relevance to modern life? I can't think of many. Is it any wonder the hymns from that era don't connect with us of this day and age?
When I was 17 a local Youth With A Mission (YWAM) base started running an evening of worship and teaching once a month which my youth group decided to try.
My jaw hit the floor within 5 minutes. Gone were musty old hymns and cheesy Graham Kedrick specials from the early 80s that my church had an obsession with (I dislike "Shine Jesus Shine" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr5Y63bDNNg) with a passion)
The team leading the worship consisted of drummer, bassist, electric guitar, acoustic and vocalists. They were singing songs written only the year before, songs with meaningful lyrics, catchy melodies and so on. They left time in the worship slots for the spirit to move. Songs would repeat sections as it felt right at that very moment in time, not however it was rehearsed.
It was.. enjoyable. Fun. Engaging. Personal.
Then a young guy named Karl Tinnion got up to speak (off the top of my head he's only about 5 years older than me), and he spoke for an hour. Not once did I even look at my watch. He was captivating, speaking solidly on biblical concepts mixing seamlessly modern and relevant anecdotes about all sorts of stuff. Instead of boring theological studies or vague current affairs stuff he was talking about every day faith. Living life as a Christian.
No condemnation, nothing about "You're a sinner, you're all going to die and be condemned to hell unless you repent" blah blah blah blah. Over the next 6 months he, and a couple of guest speakers, carefully took the bible and with the use of entire chapters stripped apart most of my preconceptions about faith and rebuilt it on solid biblical ground.
Since then my faith has come on leaps and bounds, I've been out on outreaches to strange places and met many wonderful people. My faith has changed from a fairly passive intellectual thing to a dynamic interaction with very real Creator, Sustainer and Redeemer. I've experienced stuff even my naturally sceptical mind struggles to rationalise, and seen witness to the amazing things occurring in this world because people of faith go out trusting God to lead them.
I switched away from a dry and boring church and moved on to a church that is part of the New Frontiers group of churches, a church that avoids liturgy and bland unfeeling recitation, and instead provides deep, meaningful and relevant teaching on a weekly basis. A church that is about living your faith day to day, not paying lip service.
"The greatest single cause of atheism today is Christians that acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable"
From being just a cog in a worship machine, I've become a core part of worship teams either as the leader or as the guitarist. Leading sounds like it's an easy job but it's not like Pop Idol or any such. From a rough count a few months back I figured I know somewhere over 500 songs written in the last decade or two, if not precisely then well enough to be able to start them until the projectionist finds the words for everyone.
Leading worship is an interactive process. Part of my mind is focused on the guitar and playing it, part of it is focused on technical aspects of singing, part is focused on the congregation's interaction and the rest is focused on actually Worshiping God and listening to the Holy Spirit. There is a world of noticeable difference between one who does listen to the Holy Spirit and one who doesn't, between one who is performing and one who is worshiping.
Now... I'm just confused :p I think there could very well be some form of super power above us that started everything... but not in human form!! Soooo. Tonight. I am going to a Christianity Explored church course. I'm intrigued now by what they have to say. I don't think I will be contributing a lot to the evening but I'm certainly going to listen and try and absorb the logic in the Christian belief.
I think it will be interesting. I'm always up for learning more about different beliefs and so on... but hopefully this will help figure out what I feel in my head. This post doesn't really put across my full arguments particularly well (excuse me for that - I'm just whacking this down whilst I finish my afternoon cuppa tea break) but you get an idea of what I think :)
I've vaguely heard of Christianity Explored but not had the chance to learn more about it. I've been deeply involved in running both Alpha and Youth Alpha courses so I'm familiar with the structure there. I can highly recommend Alpha courses to those both already of faith and those interested in exploring the foundations of Christianity.
Christianity Explored looks pretty interesting, fairly similar concept to Alpha courses but with a little less focus on the Holy Spirit (whom I consider to be a very important part of faith and whom the traditional church tends to marginalise) but slightly more emphasis on other aspects of faith. Which is good :)
I hope you enjoy it. If you have any questions about stuff that comes up I'd love to try and help you work through them if you'd like.
Same applies to anyone else, if you genuinely have questions about Christianity I'm always happy to try and help people explore the subject.
I'm in the same camp as most of you guys. Don't believe and find most of it very hypocritical as a lot of people seem to take what they want from the bible and ignore what they don't like. Having said that, each to their own, I'd certainly not think much different about a believer.
We're just animals AFAIC, who just so happen to be more intelligent than the other animals on the planet... unfortunately for them.
Just to stick my oar in and offer a different perspective to the Christian/Atheist split we have at the moment.....
I'm Pagan/ Wiccan and have been since I was about 17. I was brought up fairly methodist as we had a Minister in the family, and quite religious grandparents, but as soon as I realised Church wasn't just somewhere to go and sing, I gave up. I never could grasp the concept of 'God' and never received a suitable explanation. I promised myself that if I could have 'proof' of a religious concept then I would follow that religion.
I tried a mild form of Satanism for a year, but never really had my heart in it because you still need to believe in the Christian God, and I couldn't get my head around it.
When I discovered Paganism and Wicca, I realised I had been following it all my life really. Many of the concepts and beliefs were those that had been in the back of my mind during my childhood and teenage years. I can quite easily see how Nature and Energy make things the way they are, and basically it just answered a lot of my questions.
One of our very few rules is that we don't shove it down people's necks though, so although I might occasionally say something people consider strange, (like saying 'Happy New Year' at midnight on Hallowe'en), I wont ever say my religion is best, and you should follow it. It works for me and I stick to my beliefs, but some people don't/wont/can't believe and that's their choice at the end of the day.
Slinwagh
10-03-2009, 22:20
Aren't most religions fundamentally the same, modified by various religions to suit there views?
Aren't most religions fundamentally the same, modified by various religions to suit there views?
Yes and no.
Some of the fundamentals are common amongst them, general ideas about right and wrong, but the particulars can be very different in fundamental ways.
Christianity is the only religion that preaches Grace as it's primary tenet, both received and given. Where most of the other religions demand obedience, Christianity hopes for it. You should be doing good out of a love for God in all his forms rather than because you have to. I can dig a bit into the scripture for this if you'd like.
Unfortunately bigots and zealots have a habit of forgetting that core fundamental aspect of the Christian faith, preaching hatred and intolerance instead :-/
Slinwagh
10-03-2009, 23:55
Yes and no.
Some of the fundamentals are common amongst them, general ideas about right and wrong, but the particulars can be very different in fundamental ways.
Christianity is the only religion that preaches Grace as it's primary tenet, both received and given. Where most of the other religions demand obedience, Christianity hopes for it. You should be doing good out of a love for God in all his forms rather than because you have to. I can dig a bit into the scripture for this if you'd like.
Unfortunately bigots and zealots have a habit of forgetting that core fundamental aspect of the Christian faith, preaching hatred and intolerance instead :-/
Dig away, I will admit that when it comes to religion I am very opinionated!
Flibster
11-03-2009, 00:49
We're just animals AFAIC, who just so happen to be more intelligent than the other animals on the planet... unfortunately for them.
We're a virus with shoes
Never really considered religion as as anything to me. I'm happy for other people to follow it - I just can't see any point.
Although, I have been involved in Remembrance Sunday Parades - as a general uniformed type, and a standard barer or escort *the escort was the best job - got to carry deactivated Lee Enfield .303's through the middle of a town while being dressed in full RAF no1's. :D
Justsomebloke
11-03-2009, 01:58
I've been debating whether & what to write since first reading this thread.
All I am prepared to say "Up" here is Don't discount the possibilty or deny yourself the warmth that Faith brings :)
The family I was born into is not Christian. My mom went to church as a kid and my dad didn't. My grandma still did, and she took me and my sister to church and sunday school when we were little teeny. I don't remember anything about it.
When I was about 10-12, I started searching for something. I grabbed my mom's bible from the living room shelf (it was kept there and never looked at) and read it in my room when I felt upset or when I felt like it. My family even made fun of me for it.
I like to say that I looked and looked, and God found me :-) I was about 16 when I really got the chance to talk to a friend about God and Jesus and it resonated with me. I knew something was missing and it felt like this was it.
I grew in it the older I got, started going to church, bible studies, the works. I even lived in a Church owned house while I was in University. I spent that time researching and really trying to understand what it is all about.
Then a friend of mine told me about Youth with a Mission. She said that it changed her life and showed her who God really was. I resisted because I wanted to go to graduate school and I figured I didn't have the time for it. But then I felt like, hey, I'll apply to both and let God make the decision for me (but hope He'll choose the one I want Him to).
Long story short, God spoke to me. I was feeling desolate because of a ruined relationship and He told me that it would never work if I didn't do it His way (I swear I am not crazy, God speaks and He does it with words I don't use). Part of doing it "His" way was going to England for a YWAM school, which I did. It changed my life.
All the details like how can he multiply bread or turn water to wine became just that....details. I got to know God. How cool is that? There is this God who I believe created everything, and He takes the time to let ME get to know HIM?!
There is so much crap out there and I am one of the first people to admit that the church has gotten things wrong. Seriously, badly wrong. Hymns are boring, people are judgemental, and we don't love each other the way we claim we do. But all the crap that has to do with church is because people are so darn dumb. We mess up something that should be beautiful.
I went on a mission trip to Albania. I prayed with my team and God told them things about me, and me things about them (which sounds silly, but when you pray for someone sometimes things just appear in your head that you don't know and when you ask, it's right). He told us things to do and places to go. Part of the whole deal was learning to follow what He said and stuff, so we ended up seeing amazing things and teams like this all over the world have some really trippy experiences (mine involved being chased down the street by a giant pig.....story for another time).
ANYWAY, I am sorry to go on so long. I think Religion as an institution is crappy, but I think God ROCKS! I have another story that is more recent that involves some pretty miraculous timing, but I've said enough for now.
Pheebs, I love hashing this stuff out. I second the Garp if you want to talk about stuff you hear, I'd love to talk with you!
Briggykins
11-03-2009, 09:29
So Pheebs, how did it go?
Dig away, I will admit that when it comes to religion I am very opinionated!
Okay.. this could be interesting. Apologies if you know any of this already I just want to make sure I cover the subject as effectively and concisely as possible. Be warned this may get a little dry in places. I hope not though. I really need to try and convert this to a teaching format and save it rather than keep regathering all the passages each time I end up discussing this with people. Takes a while to gather it all together ;D All bible quotes will be from the New International Version unless I have a brain fart moment and accidentally select the wrong translation on biblegateway.com
In Genesis we get the character of Abram post Noah's Flood whom God decided to use to father a new nation, the Jews.
God made a covenant, a holy promise, with Abram, whom he renamed to Abraham (the name translates as "Father of Nations", whereas Abram means "Exalted Father")
From Genesis 17:
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."
9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
This was the second covenant God made with his people, the first being never to flood the planet again. However this was the first two-way one. God promised to make many nations come from Abraham and in return only asked that they keep him as their God, and they have the outward sign of the circumcision. As a sign of this promise God also provided Abraham who was 99 and his wife 90, with a new child.
A few chapters later (22) God asks Abraham to prove his dedication by sacrificing Isaac, which he stops at the last minute having been satisfied by Abraham's faith, and provided a Ram for the sacrifice instead (ch22:vs13).
At the time there was a culture of child sacrifice being acceptable to whatever deity you held to be true, and this is seen as a clear statement by God to step away from that act and replace it with animal sacrifice.
Fast forward a little bit and you get to Moses and the Exodus. Having brought them out of Egypt God provides them with the 10 commandments to live by and many rules.
Failure to abide by those rules and sin required a sacrifice to be made and very specific guidelines were laid out as to what was and what wasn't an acceptable sacrifice. The idea was you placed your hand on the sacrifice and the priest would bless it and your sins would be transferred to the animal which was then slaughtered upon the alter in a prescribed manor.
The animals that the Jews were required to sacrifice were so specifically described it required effort and sacrifice on their behalf to get the animal. The idea being, I guess, that the hassles would discourage them from sinning.
The relationship that was created there is fairly straight forward. Do as I tell you or suffer for it. It's the image of a God sitting on high throwing lightning bolts at sinners and writing names down on his list. It's a something for something relationship driven by slavish obedience.
And the Jews of the era really sucked at it. I mean, really, really sucked at it.
Whilst people may scoff at the religious aspect of it, there is considered to be sufficient collaborative material from other sources to corroborate the social and economic successes and failures described in the Old Testament. The Jewish nation had an incredible history of success and utter failure almost unparalleled by any other nation.
The theological claim of the OT is that every time they went away from God and did their own thing, everything fell apart on them and they'd often end up as a nation in captivity. When they eventually came back to him things would go incredibly well. The book of Judges contains 13 cycles of this, ending with Samson. A little while after Samson, King David enters the scene and the Jews become the most prosperous they ever had. David is described in the OT by God as a "man after my own heart" despite his regular spiritual failures. He was punished each time and still trusted in the Lord. Eventually God promises him through the prophet Nathan that the greatest King will come from his line:
" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
So fast forward to 739-690 B.C and we have the prophet Isaiah on the scene. The initial chapters are about God's message to Ahaz and the nations relating to the Syrian-Israel Crisis, but then we move on to the Messianic Prophesies.
There are around 425 Messianic prophesies between the various books in the Bible, all of which Jesus fulfilled, but the significant majority of these are in the book of Isaiah. Don't worry I'm not about to go into them all, just ones relevant to the topic:
Isaiah 7:14 talks about the Virgin Birth.
16:5 is about how he'll be descended from the line of David and come to reign "one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness"
37:31 re-emphasises that he will be descendant of the house of Judah (David's line).
49:6 and 41:1-4,6 cover how he'll be coming to bring the light to the Gentiles (non-Jews) "I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles" Note we're talking about another covenant here.
Then the final bit I want to reference from Isaiah:
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
So we set the scene for the Crucifixion, for his sacrifice.
That particular prophesy is believed to have been made around 700 B.C.
Still with me so far? I hope so :) A quick little summary of what I've tried to establish so far:
Sacrifice was the language of the relationship in old times between people and their deity. Child sacrifice was integral in that.
God (Yahweh) altered that with his covenant with Abraham and through his descendants so that animals were sacrificed to pay for transgressions.
The covenant establishes that he will look after his nations and people.
Moses came along and God codified through him how they were to live and what was the appropriate reparation for sins and how it was to be done.
David came along and led the nation to Glory and God promised to him through Nathan that the Kingdom of God will be fulfilled by his line.
Isaiah came along and alongside other prophets like Micah, prophesies of the coming Messiah, born of David's line who will be sacrificed "for our transgressions"
So jump forward to Jesus and his sermon on the mount.
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
The Message translation puts it like this:
Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures— either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God's Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God's Law will be alive and working.
So here Jesus is, preaching on the mount about how he has come to fulfill the Old Testament law.
The imagery used to describe Jesus in the Messianic prophecies and the Gospels, where is is portrayed as the Lamb of God was very carefully phrased and meant to indicate that he was the sacrificial animal.
No matter how pure an animal was on earth it would only be good as a sacrifice offering of an individual, as laid out in God's Law.
Jesus was to sent as a sacrificial offering of God for the people. The purest, holiest, most spotless offering on our behalf, taking all of our sins upon him through his death on the cross and fulfilling the price of sin that had been established.
Okay, coming in to land here. All of the above is to lay the foundation for the passage that explains the direct point I was making in my previous post about not living by the rules out of necessity, but because we're compelled to do so by love.
Following passage is from Romans chapter 8. The emphasis is mine:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. [b]15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
So there we have it, I hope clearly explained. I find verse 15 is the most pertinent of that passage for what we're discussing, that it's not obedience to fear that should be compelling us but a spirit of love :)
Hopefully the passages I've brought up should also have gone some way to explain the long established theological view:
All the Laws were fulfilled through Christ and no longer relevant unless specifically stated by Jesus, though we should be true to the spirit of the Law.
Included in the re-stated laws are the two great commandments:
1) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.
2) Love your neighbour as yourself.
If you think about that in any detail you see that pretty much every good behaviour falls into the latter category and it neatly summarises both the 10 commandments and most of the old testament Law, pushing away from an overly legalistic "Holier than thou" position to a simple hard to struggle with concept. As John Lennon put it:
All you need is Love.
So Pheebs, how did it go?
I may have missed it last night but am going next week instead. Was absolutely knackered I'm afraid.
Next week deffo though.
Thank you Garp and Lana for offering to chat with me if needs be :D
Slinwagh
11-03-2009, 12:03
Snip
There is a fair bit to digest there, I will read through it again and the hopefully pick out some points to query.
However I personally have to question the accuracy of the Bible, is it not merely a collection of fictional stories passed down by world of mouth.
I do not see any evidence for God or Jesus. Take the virgin birth, at the absolute base level you need sperm to fertilise the egg, thus rendering the virgin birth impossible, there was no IVF etc back then. i would assume I am not to take the virgin birth literally, if that is the case does this not stand for the rest of the bible to?
I am not trying to belittle your faith so please do not take offence.
I think religion is a load of rubbish, words designed to give people hope. As an example, at my Dad's funeral recently the vicar gave a load of spiel about being taken into god's house blah bla bla blah and that he's not really gone, etc etc.
Well I know one thing. He died and his body was in the coffin that was less than three yards away from me. We're made up of a series of electrical impulses and once the heart stops beating and no oxygen gets to the brain, those impulses stop and that's the end of it. He's definately gone, those electrical impulses don't suddenly leave the body and migrate elsewhere. For a start, there's no conductor to allow them to be carried away.
Harsh? Maybe. Accurate? I'm sure it is. God? Meh.
I think religion is a load of rubbish, words designed to give people hope. As an example, at my Dad's funeral recently the vicar gave a load of spiel about being taken into god's house blah bla bla blah and that he's not really gone, etc etc.
Well I know one thing. He died and his body was in the coffin that was less than three yards away from me. We're made up of a series of electrical impulses and once the heart stops beating and no oxygen gets to the brain, those impulses stop and that's the end of it. He's definately gone, those electrical impulses don't suddenly leave the body and migrate elsewhere. For a start, there's no conductor to allow them to be carried away.
Harsh? Maybe. Accurate? I'm sure it is. God? Meh.
Very similar to how I feel. I hate when people say 'Oh your Dad's gone to a better place' or 'He's still with you in spirit' etc, no he hasn't! Seen him die and his body, he's dead, simple as that. Again it might sound harsh but I hate when people say platitudes to try to avoid the truth.
Fortunately there was no vicar at the funeral but there was a humanist who imo was nearly as bad :p
Thing is... I agree with you when a person dies they're gone from the body entirely... but I've had so many experiences I just... I cannot explain... that are linked to people who have died or to people I know but haven't seen in a while. Also seen some pretty weird phenomenons in my life time, which, despite trying my best to figure out some scientific reason behind it... I just can't.
One thing weird that happened... which may have been completely coincidental happened over Christmas a few years back. In our kitchen there's a range oven and there's two ovens there. Very handy indeed... but ever since moving in the second oven has *never* worked. I'd played with it, cleaned it, tried lighting it with matches and nada. No gas no nothing. I would try flicking it on once every couple of weeks to see whether it would miraculously start working and it never did.
Christmas day came and it was a bit manic. I *needed* two ovens. I started to laugh throwing bits and bobs in and out of my one oven and thought "I'm gonna try the other oven again". I turned it on... nothing happened. As a "joke" I said out aloud "Seriously Nanny, if you're kicking around you wouldn't give me a hand would you?!" and literally the second I said that the oven turned on. Fan, gas, alight, everything.
I was like... "erm... no way... erm okay".
Coincidental? Maybe. I thought it through logically afterwards and tried to figure out whether I have asked lots before "if you're around can you help" type thing and I hadn't. The only time I used to talk to Nanny out aloud would be sitting on her grave and telling her what's been happening.
So that kind of... Just struck me as odd.
Other things like seeing weird auras, having some freaky deaky type "poltergeist" hanging around me as a kid... just makes me not dismiss an "afterlife". Though some of the time I debate whether it's just a recording... like ghost sitings. Somehow, like tapes and dvd's, has the image of a person been "caught" and "recorded" and only can be seen in certain conditions? I dunno. Maybe.
Odd.
Confused.com? I think so!
Also had a lot of odd things like an 18ft flaming Satan in my room. Room crullign with snakes from when I was around 4 and having nightly injections in my stomach from 3 "alien" doctors, I put it down to sleep paralysis. Scarred the hell out of me when I was younger until I saw a documentary on sleep paralysis. it suddenly all made os much sense and rarely get hem anymore.
I get sleep paralysis! I had it the other night in fact! Picky and his green eyes trying to kill me :( Boo!
Things I've seen has been when I've been as bright as rain! No illness or nada... very odd!
Thing is... I agree with you when a person dies they're gone from the body entirely... but I've had so many experiences I just... I cannot explain... that are linked to people who have died or to people I know but haven't seen in a while. Also seen some pretty weird phenomenons in my life time, which, despite trying my best to figure out some scientific reason behind it... I just can't...
I prefer to be a cynic but unfortunately, even I've witnessed and experienced certain phenomena that I can't explain.
Yup.
Well this is what I thought on that occasion but I cannot explain some of the things I've seen at all. Not a cluuue. Also, I've had very strange experiences when I've known someone has died/had ill health. Like, I rang my folks up one day as I had a horrendous feeling about my cousin who I hadn't seen in about a year nor spoken to or about... and Ma paused and said she had some sad news and she had just miscarried this morning.
Also had experiences of premonitions... one dream I had *completely* freaked out some house mates. I told them of a car that had crashed, the colour of it and even some of the number plate details and how vivid it all was. Driving into town that day, low and behold, a car of the exact description had just been completely crumpled in an accident... and it had similar number plate details (muddled up). A guy died in the crash. My mates... completely freaked at me.
:/
Cannot explain it at all. My "poltergeist" though... I thought I could understand scientific reasoning behind that - I swear I'm quite electrically charged and must have been more so when younger with hormones and all. So I thought it's down to that why the tv would change channel/turn on without compressing the button/bulbs blew when I walked under them despite them being replaced recently and electrics checked etc etc. Or at least some of it.
My folks had all of the house checked by professional electricians and they metered our house, dug up the road etc and said that despite there being no explanation behind it, our house kept having surges of electricity going through it that made it look like a small industrial estate on their maps. One guy asked my folks if they were open minded... and suggested whether they'd thought of getting a medium in and after careful consideration they did. When she came into the house, she walked straight upstairs, into my room (she didn't know I was there) and started saying all this random stuff like I was possessed. Freaked me out a bit. She was kicked out and another person was brought round when I was out. They told my Pa he needed to go to my room when no one was there and tell the spirit to eff off basically. He... a laid back scientific chap... was starting to get so concerned over it he actually did it and recently told me that he went *bonkers* in my room and proper told it where to go when no one else was there. From that day onwards... it stopped.
Coincident?
I knew nothing about what my Pa did until recently and remember it did all just suddenly stop (it was a daily occurrence with me. Sleeping was a nightmare too as the TV/radio would turn on a couple of times during the night and I'd have to get up, unplug them all and go to bed.)
I really... don't feel I can put that down entirely to some scientific explanation at all. *something* must of been there with me. I don't know what or who or anything but something.
NokkonWud
12-03-2009, 09:30
I don't follow any religion, nor necessarily believe in any one God, but I wouldn't want to be labelled an Atheist as I do have the ability to believe in someone or something and my impression of Atheism is that you shut out the possibility of anything like that, and that seems a little sad and depressing to me.
Coincidental?
That's the problem. It is coincidence, but people always jump to the explanation of it being paranormal. Which seems odd to me, considering if it was paranormal, why would a ghost spent its afterlife fiddling with *your* oven? That's a big leap to me. Coincidence that the oven had a loose connection or whatever, and fiddling with it walking around it on that day, the connection came back and it worked. That seems a million times more likely.
Unexplained activity is always confirmed by whoever "investigates" it anyway. Getting mediums/spirit guides involved means nothing, because being a medium and making a living off it means they'll always say there's something there, whether there is or not. Making it inconclusive.
As said, the oven I can kind of pass off as coincidence. The other stuff when I was younger though was... weird. If professional electricians can find nothing wrong with the house... I mean... what's on there? And what about my experiences when I feel something really bad has happened to a close relative and they actually had? I'm not an avid worrier or anything... it's not like I have these thoughts all the time... the rare occasions when I have had a bit of a panic over someone, 80% of the time something bad *has* happened?
Odd? I think so! And about the medium... my Pa thought it was a pile of codswallop. Utter trash. The first person didn't get given any wonga just was thrown out. The second said not to bother (a friend of a family member). So there was no money incentive. Why did it all stop happening the day my Dad went nuts in my room (something he said he felt stupid doing but thought he had to try as he was starting to really worry about things that were happening around me (plus the leccy bills were stupid :p))? I never knew he did that... so why did it stop?
It's all bit too coincidental to me for that to happen and it be nothing more than me being electrically more charged than your average person :)
I think, like Nokkon, with religion/afterlife and anything like that for me I try and explain it as much as I can scientifically and believe most of it must be able to have some form of non paranormal explanation... but I don't and won't ever shut out the possibility that *something* paranormal may be going on. That would make me... very closed minded which I don't like to be!
Slinwagh
12-03-2009, 11:27
Just because something happens that you can't explain doesn't mean that it was the act of some "God" or higher being.
As for the afterlife, I considered that to be a way for people not to have to deal with death, people die, they are dead, none of this gone to sleep, passed away, passed over to the other side rhetoric that you hear.
Slinwagh... I don't know whether you were suggesting that's what I thought... the things which I've experienced I wouldn't put down to God say (I'm not even convinced he exists) but I think they may have something slightly paranormal about it.
Dunno. As said, I don't think I am able to dismiss the possibility of there being higher beings/paranormal things :)
NokkonWud
12-03-2009, 12:16
As for the afterlife, I considered that to be a way for people not to have to deal with death, people die, they are dead, none of this gone to sleep, passed away, passed over to the other side rhetoric that you hear.
But could you prove that?
Isn't it nicer to believe there is something than to believe there isn't? When it all comes to the unknown why not believe?
Slinwagh
12-03-2009, 12:21
But could you prove that?
Isn't it nicer to believe there is something than to believe there isn't? When it all comes to the unknown why not believe?
Can you prove otherwise?
It maybe nicer to believe in the afterlife but how does that help you deal with death?
This is breaking in to two discussions that I see as very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all.
Slinwagh
12-03-2009, 13:15
This is breaking in to two discussions that I see are very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all.
I agree but it is interesting that people who believe in God also believe in the afterlife and paranormal.
But could you prove that?
Isn't it nicer to believe there is something than to believe there isn't? When it all comes to the unknown why not believe?
Abscence of evidence, is not evidence of abscence. True, but often coined as the reason why people should take the position of "I'll believe until proven otherwise" rather than "Why should I believe, until it's proven?" It's being open-minded to the facts, because otherwise you can't prejudice. The onus shouldn't be on something to be disprove in order not to believe, otherwise we'll spend all our lives believing in vampires, fairies, unicorns etc, because the idea alone, like Ghosts, is enough for some people to go "I believe they exist" Despite there being just as much "evidence" for both. :) How do you differentiate? It seems just personal preference to what people believe. "I believe in Ghosts, but not Unicorns. Why? Well unicorns are just silly aren't they?" and, since when, is personal preference an actual element to truth?
Most "non-believers" will be open to the idea of an afterlife/spirit world but remain unconvinced until facts come along to look at.
I'm still of the opinion that, no direct evidence has ever come to life about ghosts. It's always embelished stories or odd anecdotes such as "the picture frame of my Nanna fell off 25 days after her funeral. Take 25 away from the age she died, and you get 63. Add on 12 (she died 12th March) and you get 75. 75 is OUR HOUSE NUMBER!!! coincidence?" which to me, scream coincidence, and straw clutching much louder than paranormal. :)
This is breaking in to two discussions that I see as very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all.
Oops. I think that's my fault ;D I was meaning to link stuff to an afterlife/heaven/hell/purgatory type thing!!
Lots of talk of when you die you just... no longer exist any more... kind of wanted to see what peoples opinions were on that as I know many people who have some form of faith *do* believe in an afterlife :)
Part of the reason it's difficult to believe in the spirit world etc, is because, that assumes that our spirit/soul is not exclusive to the physical brain, e.g. synapsis, chemical reaction. That our spirit is a seperate entity to that, with the ability to transfer to a different dimension/universe unlike our own. But, that contradicts the simple physical act of brain damage. Remove/damage certain parts of our brain and person changes. Personalities can alter, sometimes with such severity, they essentially become a different person. Quite odd to happen, if our soul is above all of that.
If professional electricians can find nothing wrong with the house... I mean... what's on there?
If a professional electrician told me to seek a medium, I'd have to question his technical ability! :p
If a professional electrician told me to seek a medium, I'd have to question his technical ability! :p
lol! I said the same thing when my folks told me when I was older (they kept a lot from me about the goings on as they didn't want me to get scared) Apparently, due to finding no fault and digging up half our road and getting another chap in to do it he drew a blank. They chatted for ages about the problems and I think it was kind of brought up by my folks and then he said it might well be and perhaps to try a medium, you never know kind of thing. :) Poor explanation on my half :)
Chuckles
12-03-2009, 14:58
Just because something happens that you can't explain doesn't mean that it was the act of some "God" or higher being.
Exactly. There has never been a single piece of evidence to prove the existence of ghosts or any of that kind of stuff. Just because you can't explain something, why would you leap to conclusion that it must be the cause of something even more implausible?
There are strong links between neurological states and belief in afterlife, religion etc. Have a look at articles on temporal lobe epilepsy. It's possible to stimulate the brain to have these feelings and it occurs naturally in some people more than others.
Can you prove otherwise?
It maybe nicer to believe in the afterlife but how does that help you deal with death?
No one can prove it one way or another. That's why it's called "Faith".
Literal definition of faith:
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
Faith is something that can by it's very nature never be conclusively proven. If you're looking for that conclusive proof then you're in for a long wait.
If Jesus was to come riding out of clouds on a burning chariot tomorrow I would no longer have a faith.
If you want to argue that faith is pointless because it's not based in hard scientific fact then you'll never be satisfied. There is nothing anyone can say or do that will ultimately prove or disprove what people have faith in.
However I personally have to question the accuracy of the Bible, is it not merely a collection of fictional stories passed down by world of mouth.
Yes and no.. The old testament is a the histories of a people, from the perspective of their relationship with their deity.
The structure and style of the book shows that everything from Moses onwards was written down as well as passed on by word of mouth. The claim (which is disputed by textual analysis) is that Moses wrote the first five books of the bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers. Textual analysis suggests there were maybe a half dozen authors of it. I don't know the truth of the matter, but I don't see it as particularly important. Just as important was the fact that they were writing down the oral history of their nation.
This same concept carries through to the New Testament documents as well: In a major story telling culture it was hard to get away with altering the past. Some exaggeration, sure, but you can't fundamentally change a story because not just you would know it.
In current days we barely even tend to know our neighbours names, let alone their histories or the histories of their family. In those days, however, it would be extremely common and any attempt to alter the past would have been met with derision. That puts us in a position that the writings of the bible are what an entire culture believes to be the truth based on their witness of events; not just what some old biddy made up for a laugh around the campfire. The histories of a nation were very important to it's people.
On a complete side note it seems to me that these day's we're determined to forget where we came from and why.
I do not see any evidence for God or Jesus. Take the virgin birth, at the absolute base level you need sperm to fertilise the egg, thus rendering the virgin birth impossible, there was no IVF etc back then. i would assume I am not to take the virgin birth literally, if that is the case does this not stand for the rest of the bible to?
A God who created the universe, by his very nature would be Omniscient and Omnipotent, right? If he is omnipotent then something like making a virgin conceive a child would hardly be a challenge to him :)
There are any number of creatures on this planet that reproduce asexually. Admittedly those are generally less complicated creatures than mankind but the evolutionary argument there is that asexual reproduction is great for fast population growth but poor for genetic diversity.
The scientific term for a virgin birth that occurs in a species that is capable of sexual reproduction is "parthenogenesis". The only oddity to reconcile there is that parthenogenesis always results in female offspring when the creature's sex is determined by "XY" pairings.
I need to do some investigation into the accuracy of this claim this is merely something I've dug up online from a quick query about the science of the virgin birth. I can't find corroborating evidence so it may just be weak speculation by someone. I have no idea who this "Davit Pratt" is:
There is some evidence, however, that natural parthenogenesis does occasionally occur in humans. There are many instances in which impregnation has allegedly taken place in women without there being any possibility of the semen entering the female genital passage [2]. In some cases it was found either in the course of pregnancy or at the time of childbirth that the female passages were obstructed. In 1956 the medical journal Lancet published a report concerning 19 alleged cases of virgin birth among women in England, who were studied by members of the British Medical Association. The six-month study convinced the investigators that human parthenogenesis was physiologically possible and had actually occurred in some of the women studied [3].... ... It is possible that some cases of human parthenogenesis involve self-fertilization rather than true virgin birth, as there are cases of sperm being produced in women by vestigial, usually nonfunctional, male reproductive glands known as the epoöphoron (parovarium) and paroöphoron, which correspond to the seminiferous tubules of the testicles in males. In some instances, the magnetic influence and nervous excitement occasioned by attempted sexual intercourse may rouse into activity the latent, rudimentary male sex glands so that they secrete semen, resulting in impregnation [6].
But again, a virgin birth is not exactly going to be challenging to an all powerful God who created the very universe :)
The Virgin birth is never going to be a good point to start the basis of faith on. I have faith the Virgin Birth occurred because I have faith that my God and Creator exists, not the other way around :)
I am not trying to belittle your faith so please do not take offence.
You can insult my faith or belittle it all you like, I still won't take offense. I might feel sorry for you under such circumstances, but I wouldn't be offended :)
Faith is the strangest thing. That seemingly rational and intelligent beings would choose to believe in something there is no proof of. As absurdities go it probably seems akin to those that still believe the world is flat and are busy scurrying around trying to produce their own "scientific" proof to explain what physicists demonstrate.
Chuckles
12-03-2009, 19:06
No one can prove it one way or another. That's why it's called "Faith".
You can very easily disprove most religions with science - Evolution.
You can very easily disprove most religions with science - Evolution.
I'm sorry but that's just not true. I'm a believer in evolution, but that doesn't mean God didn't kick start the process, or nurture it along the way, or create the very environment which was necessary for evolution to occur.
Evolution neither proves nor disproves the existence of God.
Slinwagh
12-03-2009, 19:30
I said...
I do not see any evidence for God or Jesus. Take the virgin birth, at the absolute base level you need sperm to fertilise the egg, thus rendering the virgin birth impossible, there was no IVF etc back then. i would assume I am not to take the virgin birth literally, if that is the case does this not stand for the rest of the bible to?
You said...
On a complete side note it seems to me that these day's we're determined to forget where we came from and why.
A God who created the universe, by his very nature would be Omniscient and Omnipotent, right? If he is omnipotent then something like making a virgin conceive a child would hardly be a challenge to him.
You then go on to say....
There are any number of creatures on this planet that reproduce asexually. Admittedly those are generally less complicated creatures than mankind but the evolutionary argument there is that asexual reproduction is great for fast population growth but poor for genetic diversity.
The scientific term for a virgin birth that occurs in a species that is capable of sexual reproduction is "parthenogenesis". The only oddity to reconcile there is that parthenogenesis always results in female offspring when the creature's sex is determined by "XY" pairings.
I need to do some investigation into the accuracy of this claim this is merely something I've dug up online from a quick query about the science of the virgin birth. I can't find corroborating evidence so it may just be weak speculation by someone. I have no idea who this "Davit Pratt" is:
You then quote this a a source, I have no knowledge or reason to question it.
There is some evidence, however, that natural parthenogenesis does occasionally occur in humans. There are many instances in which impregnation has allegedly taken place in women without there being any possibility of the semen entering the female genital passage [2]. In some cases it was found either in the course of pregnancy or at the time of childbirth that the female passages were obstructed. In 1956 the medical journal Lancet published a report concerning 19 alleged cases of virgin birth among women in England, who were studied by members of the British Medical Association. The six-month study convinced the investigators that human parthenogenesis was physiologically possible and had actually occurred in some of the women studied [3].... ... It is possible that some cases of human parthenogenesis involve self-fertilization rather than true virgin birth, as there are cases of sperm being produced in women by vestigial, usually nonfunctional, male reproductive glands known as the epoöphoron (parovarium) and paroöphoron, which correspond to the seminiferous tubules of the testicles in males. In some instances, the magnetic influence and nervous excitement occasioned by attempted sexual intercourse may rouse into activity the latent, rudimentary male sex glands so that they secrete semen, resulting in impregnation
So there is possibly a medical explanation of the possibility that "a virgin birth" for want of a better phrase can take place, does this not itself render the likely hood of "God" being responsible for the virgin birth very remote?
So there is possibly a medical explanation of the possibility that "a virgin birth" for want of a better phrase can take place, does this not itself render the likely hood of "God" being responsible for the virgin birth very remote?
Nope, see my response to Chuckles and evolution.
If something is a very remote possiblity but could still have happened, there is nothing to say God didn't kickstart the specific process.
I'm sure that sounds like a fairly weak kind of reponse, essentially I could do that with anything you say, if we only look at things from that angle.
A belief like that wouldn't satisfy my cynical mind. Then I start delving into the ideas from other sections of the bible, like the Messianic prophesies that clearly state the Messiah would be coming from David's line, the clear genealogy presented in the bible that demonstrates how Jesus is of David's line (and with the genealogically obsessed Jewish race, such claims would never have lasted if it wasn't true) and how he went on to fulfill over 400 prophecies made over 700 years before his birth..
It's like with a criminal investigation. Very rarely does one single piece of evidence conclusively explain anything, it's a combination of all the pieces that give you the full picture.
Slinwagh
12-03-2009, 19:40
Nope, see my response to Chuckles and evolution.
If something is a very remote possiblity but could still have happened, there is nothing to say God didn't kickstart the specific process.
I'm sure that sounds like a fairly weak kind of reponse, essentially I could do that with anything you say, if we only look at things from that angle.
A belief like that wouldn't satisfy my cynical mind. Then I start delving into the ideas from other sections of the bible, like the Messianic prophesies that clearly state the Messiah would be coming from David's line, the clear genealogy presented in the bible that demonstrates how Jesus is of David's line (and with the genealogically obsessed Jewish race, such claims would never have lasted if it wasn't true) and how he went on to fulfill over 400 prophecies made over 700 years before his birth..
It's like with a criminal investigation. Very rarely does one single piece of evidence conclusively explain anything, it's a combination of all the pieces that give you the full picture.
The evidence for evolution is far more compelling than that of God.
The evidence for evolution is far more compelling than that of God.
You choose to believe that the trillion to one chance of precisely the right amount of energy being present to cause the big bang and not result in either matter flying apart too fast for cohesion, or just all collapsing in on itself because it didn't fly away fast enough?
That not only did we get just the right amount of energy causing the big bang, enough of the relevant matter combined in the right quantities to create the massive nuclear fission reaction that is the sun.
That not only did the sun form in an appropriate matter, but the right amount of matter came together at a suitable distance from the sun to be able to form a stable orbit.
That not only did the matter come together there it was of an appropriate composition to create the relevant primordial soup and gasses essential to the sustenance of life?
That not only did life get created, but it grew to be capable of sentience?
That not only did this all occur, but it was by complete "chance"?
And you say I have faith?
Matblack
12-03-2009, 19:52
You choose to believe that the trillion to one chance of precisely the right amount of energy being present to cause the big bang and not result in either matter flying apart too fast for cohesion, or just all collapsing in on itself because it didn't fly away fast enough?
That not only did we get just the right amount of energy causing the big bang, enough of the relevant matter combined in the right quantities to create the massive nuclear fission reaction that is the sun.
That not only did the sun form in an appropriate matter, but the right amount of matter came together at a suitable distance from the sun to be able to form a stable orbit.
That not only did the matter come together there it was of an appropriate composition to create the relevant primordial soup and gasses essential to the sustenance of life?
That not only did life get created, but it grew to be capable of sentience?
That not only did this all occur, but it was by complete "chance"?
And you say I have faith?
Well its either that or the biggest Chinese whisper in the history of the planet ;)
MB
We're looking from a biased viewpoint though. As the lottery winners of the universe there's an entire 'rest of the universe' of spent tickets out there.. but someone has to win if all the combinations are drawn. Yes, the chances are slim but our numbers came up.
Chuckles
12-03-2009, 20:14
Nope, see my response to Chuckles and evolution.
If something is a very remote possiblity but could still have happened, there is nothing to say God didn't kickstart the specific process.
Why the need to make the situation so complex? For the majority time within human existence, we have been unable to explain one of the most ultimate questions eg "Where do we come from?". This was always explained by creationism.
Thankfully, our advances now allow us to explain this using science backed up by evidence. There is no need to bolt on superstition and non-empirical hyperbole when the facts are there in black and white.
Furthermore, if religion and evolution can coexist, why do authority figures within religion try to shelter it, particularly from the young, and seek to descredit it? The reason is simply to maintain their power and influence which is become smaller and smaller as more people learn the truth from an education which is no longer influenced by religion.
Slinwagh
12-03-2009, 20:18
Where did "God" come from?
Chuckles
12-03-2009, 20:18
You choose to believe that the trillion to one chance of precisely the right amount of energy being present to cause the big bang and not result in either matter flying apart too fast for cohesion, or just all collapsing in on itself because it didn't fly away fast enough?
That not only did we get just the right amount of energy causing the big bang, enough of the relevant matter combined in the right quantities to create the massive nuclear fission reaction that is the sun.
That not only did the sun form in an appropriate matter, but the right amount of matter came together at a suitable distance from the sun to be able to form a stable orbit.
That not only did the matter come together there it was of an appropriate composition to create the relevant primordial soup and gasses essential to the sustenance of life?
That not only did life get created, but it grew to be capable of sentience?
That not only did this all occur, but it was by complete "chance"?
And you say I have faith?
There is more logic in that than believing in something that doesn't have a shred of evidence.
Matblack
12-03-2009, 20:23
Here is my take;
Religions came about at times when it was important to control people, people are not easily controlled but the one thing which brings them into line is uncertainty, the biggest uncertainty is what happens when they die, it scares people rigid because we are by nature a very possessive animal and we don't want to lose everything. You tell people if they are good little people that they can live forever and they will clamber over hot coals, tear their flesh and strap bombs to themselves and kill hundreds of people. Because fundamentally they are scared.
At certain times in history there have been teachers who realised this, maybe they believed some of what had come before because they had faith, maybe they saw the potential power they could gain and started from scratch, some of the them may even have believed they were special. In the main they did good things, used stories and parables to encourage people to live good lives (some not so much).
If you look at something like the Heavens Gate Cult or even the German people circa 1930 you can see that however smart people think they are they can still be taken in by individuals with exceptional personalities, you get enough of a following and you've got a religion, if its easy to follow and people are scared enough to believe it then it will snowball.
If you look at many religious texts there's some bloody sensible stuff, stuff which is engineered to make people better, to encourage them not to kill one another, not to interbreed even the whole stop buggering one another and don't eat shellfish stuff is understandable. If for example your tribe is dying out you probably don't want blokes partnering off and not breeding and in a hot country with no fridges shellfish is gonna kill you, why not tell people its bad by writing it in a book?
This does not prove the existence of a higher power, it proves that people will do the funniest stuff if you promise them something special and that's no bad thing, unless....... you allow the message to become distorted, you have religious leaders who are happy to 'give it a little tweak' at times of crisis, who are known to hide relevent texts (I'm looking at you Catholics) who are greedy for money or power or land and suddenly realise that they have an army of millions who could if you tell them that you've seen the Virgin Mary on a toilet roll invade your neighbors and bring you lots of booty. They write in these little clauses and people add them to the doctrine.
If you look at all the major religions they have a few common roots; be nice, try not to kill each other, treat the earth with respect anything on top of that in my opinion is unnecessary.
Here is what I 'believe'
If you have an infinite amount of time then something weird is going to happen (like a bloody big bang) if you leave that for a bloody long time then something weird is going to happen (like life) yeah its a one in a trillion chance but give it a few trillions and it will happen, if you then leave that for a bloody long time then eventually you'll get something intelligent enough to make up a special story to justify its own existence, give that a while and it will probably come up with something a bit more plausible after it invents the microscope and computers and Diet Coke.
I do believe that there is a higher power (this is not sarcasm).
By default the universe is a life force but its sentience is to comprehensible to us, it grinds its way towards a conclusion. Like a human is made of cells the universe is made of worlds many of which will have life, and it molds itself. As tiny parts of that we effect its fate, what we do has an impact, if you are the best you can be during your limited span then your deeds will have an impact on the future however small. But in my opinion, however great you are you'd better revel in the moment because you aint getting a pair of wings and a grandstand seat ;)
[This has been a train of thought production, if it doesn't make sense to anyone but me I don't really care :p]
MB
Chuckles
12-03-2009, 20:32
Very well thought out post. I agree with it all, apart from the last paragraph :p
It's very similar to Nietzsche's take on the master/slave mentality.
There is more logic in that than believing in something that doesn't have a shred of evidence. Indeed, wonder how many times in the Universe it hasn't happened, not that anyone would be aware of the various guises of 'non-existence' of course. I.e. who knows how many times it didn't work before the Big Bang finally happened? A near-infinite amount of time or a picosecond, could be anywhere in between!
Infitessimal probability x Infinite number of events = Something 'impossible' happens, somewhere.
We're the 'lucky' ones in a trillion, woo go us. It's not fate, or the work of a divine architect IMO, it's just simple chance. We exist because we are that little chance, if we weren't, we wouldn't know about it because we wouldn't exist.
Chuckles
13-03-2009, 16:08
Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?
Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?
Shakespeare's works. Monkeys. Typewriters.
:)
Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?
If you are willing to have faith that time is an immutable dimension that travels in one direction only and cannot be bound.
Time and space are intertwined and as the Universe's expansion has been observed, that implies that there are mathematical boundaries to space, and, correspondingly, time itself. It could be that space and time actually curve back towards each other like the two dimensions on a TV screen. Do you remember those games (e.g. Asteroids) where the player missiles would "wrap"? To the sprite on the screen, it could travel forever in any single direction - effectively infinity. Meanwhile, another creature could watch it pass across an area bounded by what it perceives as a physical dimension with a defined boundary.
Who's to say that we ourselves aren't being observed by creatures who can perceive the unseen, unknowable boundaries we are actually subject to?
semi-pro waster
14-03-2009, 11:10
This sums it up pretty nicely for me
[youtube]bBUc_kATGgg[youtube]
MB
You're quite a Tim Minchin fan aren't you? Very nicely done though. :)
Personally I'm sitting somewhere in the apathetic agnostic camp, I can't prove or disprove the existence of a god or any higher power and quite frankly I don't care enough to try to because it impacts on my life not one jot. My ideal in this is for people to believe in whatever they want but to allow others the same right and not to persecute or negatively impact on people because of their beliefs - this does lead to some issues in defining what is a negative impact etc but it is about the best I can do with an all-encompassing aim.
On a basic level I'm happy for anyone to believe in anything provided the aren't affecting others with it but once they do then I've got issues with it. I'm also not keen on people who preach at me, if they want to tell me about the majesty of Christ then that is fine but once I ask them to stop that is their cue to hush up, I don't want to dissuade anyone from their beliefs (even assuming I could) but if they do not respect mine I will not respect theirs - basic courtesy here.
Coming back to the old hymn thing, thought I'd post a few example youtube clips of a few different modern worship songs / styles.
Slightly mellow, British worship leader Tim Hughes:
q6kYBXQXw_g
A bit more up tempo, another British guy Matt Redman:
CoeoWRufz74
Tree 63 (south african group)
Q6aCC0g1IdI
Some modern gospel sounds with Kirk Franklin:
nhx8FHYBs7k
and with his 1 Nation Crew project:
cMryIz0fg9s
Rap/indie/hip hop type group thebandwithnoname (yes that really is how imaginative they were name wise)
ehaKh9aidL4
R&B: Group 1 Crew
UhHBFCGK2hY
Metal sounds with Pillar
xPlRDz7-eSo
Kutless
RUDDr5vuPy8
I do not see any evidence for God or Jesus. Take the virgin birth, at the absolute base level you need sperm to fertilise the egg, thus rendering the virgin birth impossible, there was no IVF etc back then. i would assume I am not to take the virgin birth literally, if that is the case does this not stand for the rest of the bible to?
The way I understand the Virgin Birth is that it was a miracle...the same as with blind people being able to see or dead people coming back to life again. It doesn't make sense on a cognitive level but it happened.
Having been part of a missionary program in the past, I have heard of a lot of miracles from people I completely trust. I don't think they were metaphorical!
I read some books that were actually really helpful to me when I was looking for some answers. You may have heard of them... "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith." I thought they were really cool because they started off from the basics of the Bible and answer questions everyone has (how do I know this is true? Couldn't some random person have made it up? etc).
My belief is that if anyone goes searching for the truth and really has an open mind they will find it.
I really... don't feel I can put that down entirely to some scientific explanation at all. *something* must of been there with me. I don't know what or who or anything but something.
Pheebs that sounds so scary!
Sometimes I will suddenly think of someone I haven't spoken to in a little while and give them a call, to find out that they are having a really hard time and need someone to talk to.
I have one friend who says she can see demons and I called her one night when she said they were all dancing around her. (I have NEVER seen anything and I am glad. I think God knows what we can and can't handle, and I could NOT handle that!) It was random timing because I was tired and it was actually too late to call her but I had this really strong urge to.
So I have had weird things happen too! We totally live in a spiritual world.
On a basic level I'm happy for anyone to believe in anything provided the aren't affecting others with it but once they do then I've got issues with it. I'm also not keen on people who preach at me, if they want to tell me about the majesty of Christ then that is fine but once I ask them to stop that is their cue to hush up, I don't want to dissuade anyone from their beliefs (even assuming I could) but if they do not respect mine I will not respect theirs - basic courtesy here.
I think a lot of times people don't know the limit. People feel like they have a message and they will shout it from the rooftops without stopping to think that it just makes them look wacky.
I saw this guy once who was preaching hellfire and damnation at the prostitutes in Waikiki, and I really wanted to stop and ask him who he thought he was helping. I don't know about anyone else, but if my first impression of a religion was that I am being judged, I don't think I would think that was something I wanted to take part in!
(Sorry I keep replying...I love this conversation :-P)
The issue of faith has always been intriguing to me and I really do admire people like Garp who have some faith and religion in their life. From my experience, some people who say they are agnostic or atheist do so because thats the way popular culture influences them to be without having the understanding of what this actually means. Not to suggest that any BD'ers are like that.
From my point of view I was brought up as a Christian attending Sunday School and having religion and patriotism (Queen & Country) imposed on me through the cub's and scouts. But something just didn't connect with me. I could never understand why people would appear to blindly follow someone or something they had never seen. All the good things passed off as gods will. All the bad things passed off as gods punishment for your sins that you may or may not be aware of. Through my teenage years I rebelled against religion and dabled in the occult to rationalise my understanding.
A few years ago I felt my life was missing something from a faith point of view. I knew I wasn't comfortable with the conventions of christianity and other organised religions by the same token I did need some moral or ethical compass to be my guide.
So for the past few years I have found Buddhism and it has enriched my life. Maybe it was a long journey to accept that I am responsible for my actions, that I can have a positive or negative impact on the people, community and world around me, that anything is possible given the right frame of mind. We know this was a real person and there is something less mystic about his teachings. It fits better with me and I feel I am a better person for having some faith in my life not necessarily religion.
As for the debate on the existence of god and a higher omniscient being who is all knowing and all seeing. Well I am not convinced. What I have a question mark over is the whole creationism debate. Is it just pure fluke or chance that this ball of dust and dirt is in exactly the right place at the right time, at the right distance from the sun with the exact ammount of nutrients, oxygen, carbon and nitrogen to support no only life but evolutionary life ???
There are so many variables that have to be right to ensure life on this planet. A very small percentage either way would mean the planet being vastly different and life would not exist. Is that just down to where we are or where we were 65M years ago so does this support the argument for divine intervention.
Chuckles
17-03-2009, 20:25
My belief is that if anyone goes searching for the truth and really has an open mind they will find it.
That's crazy though. Virtually everyone who is religious is so for one of the following reasons
1) Their have to knocked into them by their parents or peers from a young age
2) They have experienced a traumatic event and are vunerable
3) They get brainwashed
If it were possible to remove all external influences from a persons life and present them with the scientific evidence for evolution or the dogma of creationism, I don't think anyone who is "Open Mindded" as you say would opt for creationism as a credible theory.
If you look at people who follow specific religions, it is always due to their environment. For example, people born into a tradition Pakistan family are likely to be Muslim, and people born into a traditional Christian western family will be Christian.
All organised religions have got it right when they say that all the others have got it wrong. All they need to do is take that last tiny step and realise that theirs is just as ridiculous as the rest.
semi-pro waster
17-03-2009, 23:33
All organised religions have got it right when they say that all the others have got it wrong. All they need to do is take that last tiny step and realise that theirs is just as ridiculous as the rest.
So could I take it you believe in Stephen F. Roberts' oft repeated quote "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours."?
Which is all lovely but your position relies on the faith of probability and that is not any more certain to be correct than the blind faith of an adherant. The likelihood is good that all (or most) religions are (at least partially) wrong but that is all it is, you can neither prove nor disprove the basic idea of a deity so to take a firm position on it requires faith.
Lana: Indeed, the problem is getting people to realise why their position is not absolute truth* and should not necessarily override what other people believe. I direct that to believers in religion and atheists alike, both sides can be spectacularly unforgiving when it comes to what other people want to believe in. Accept the belief that you have for what it is (faith) and there is nothing whatsoever wrong in having faith but remember that your faith is not better than anyone elses so allow them to believe as you would wish to be given the right to believe yourself. Faith should not be used to oppress or castigate, it should be between you and your god or lack of god if that is the case.
*If there is any such thing as absolute truth to begin with, your truth may not be mine because we start from different places and have different experiences to shape our viewpoints.
Chuckles
17-03-2009, 23:46
Which is all lovely but your position relies on the faith of probability and that is not any more certain to be correct than the blind faith of an adherant. The likelihood is good that all (or most) religions are (at least partially) wrong but that is all it is, you can neither prove nor disprove the basic idea of a deity so to take a firm position on it requires faith.
That's a logical fallacy. "All cats have 4 legs. My dog has 4 legs, therefore my cat is a dog."
It is poor logic to make an assumption on the basis that you cannot disprove another assumption.
Can you prove that a giant spaghetti didn't create life as we know it?
I'd rather put my "Faith" in a theory backed up by science and evidence than one with none.
semi-pro waster
18-03-2009, 00:08
That's a logical fallacy. "All cats have 4 legs. My dog has 4 legs, therefore my cat is a dog."
It is poor logic to make an assumption on the basis that you cannot disprove another assumption.
Can you prove that a giant spaghetti didn't create life as we know it?
I'd rather put my "Faith" in a theory backed up by science and evidence than one with none.
Come again? That's not even close to the proposition here, you're dismissing all religion on the basis that you think they it is a crock - fine, that is your prerogative but to say that it is logically supported to do so is a nonsense. You have, in effect, said I don't believe any religion I've ever heard of (and I'll credit you with having heard of all possible religions here if it makes the slightest bit of difference and having an in depth understanding of all of them) which means there can be no god - it means no such thing. All it means is that you don't believe in any of them, not that they cannot possibly be true. If we are talking likelihoods then sure, I'd probably agree with you, I've not yet heard of a religion that makes me think it is likely to be correct but I don't know enough to dismiss them all so I'll sit on the fence for this one. If you want to take a position and dismiss them all then be my guest, you are welcome to do so but at least accept that you are dismissing them as a matter of faith because the only logical position here is that we don't know - there is nothing wrong with having faith and I'm not sure why so many atheists fight shy of admitting it but perhaps the idea of owning up to not being in the logically supported position is somehow not kosher.
I can't disprove the FSM but I don't need to or care to, apathetic agnostic and all that - I've got my distinct suspicions that it was all invented by Bobby Henderson given that he was the creator of Pastafarianism but it really doesn't matter to me either way.
You've also apparantly taken the view that evolution and religion are mutually exclusive which is not necessarily the case, (many forms of) religion (but not all, including some literal interpretations of Christianity) can accomodate evolution and evolution doesn't really give a rats for the existence of religion provided the theory holds true in a predictively accurate sense.
Chuckles
18-03-2009, 00:38
Come again? That's not even close to the proposition here, you're dismissing all religion on the basis that you think they it is a crock - fine, that is your prerogative but to say that it is logically supported to do so is a nonsense. You have, in effect, said I don't believe any religion I've ever heard of (and I'll credit you with having heard of all possible religions here if it makes the slightest bit of difference and having an in depth understanding of all of them) which means there can be no god - it means no such thing.
I'm not saying that. I'm agreeing with you that it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God.
What I'm saying is that because you cannot disprove that should not give any credence to that idea that there is a God.
Slinwagh
18-03-2009, 01:57
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/cameroon/5007124/Anger-as-Pope-Benedict-XVI-says-condoms-make-Aids-worse.html
Here is one of the Popes latest little gems.
Aids, he said, "is a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, and that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".
For me this just highlight how out of touch modern religion is. The worst thing is millions of people listen to this man.
Chuckles
18-03-2009, 10:37
Catholics in "Being idiots" total non-shocker.
Matblack
18-03-2009, 10:52
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/cameroon/5007124/Anger-as-Pope-Benedict-XVI-says-condoms-make-Aids-worse.html
Here is one of the Popes latest little gems.
For me this just highlight how out of touch modern religion is. The worst thing is millions of people listen to this man.
Its not that they listen which is the problem, the problem is that they blindly follow.
I have a mate who is a Catholic, he isn't a moron, but he follows the beliefs of his church and because the pope says its wrong he believes barrier contraception is wrong, ask him why and he'll say because the church says so :dunno:
The refusal us use barrier contraception was brought in by the Catholic faith many many years ago to prevent Catholics having sex for fun; fine if they want to rule it out as a recreational activity but to doggedly sticking to their guns in the face of an epidemic which can only be stopped by abstainance or barrier contraception is madness and in my eyes a crime against humanity.
MB
The refusal us use barrier contraception was brought in by the Catholic faith many many years ago to prevent Catholics having sex for fun; fine if they want to rule it out as a recreational activity but to doggedly sticking to their guns in the face of an epidemic which can only be stopped by abstainance or barrier contraception is madness and in my eyes a crime against humanity.
MB
But the come back to that is, if they blindly followed religion. they wouldn't shag around and would abstain till marriage. So they ignore one message from him, but rigidly stick to the other. Sounds like most of these people would shag around without condoms regardless.
Briggykins
18-03-2009, 21:51
But the opinion of a man who is held in such high regard in the area must surely impact on the availability or even the social acceptance of condoms? Thus those who wish to have sex with a condom, and don't follow Christianity, might be prevented from doing so.
Didn't the previous Pope accept that condoms were the lesser of two evils in this area? (Edit - No. I seem to have been wrong about this) I really don't understand the Church's intransigence in the face of such a humanitarian catastrophe.
I really don't understand the Church's intransigence in the face of such a humanitarian catastrophe.
I really don't understand how people can worship a false idol like the pope.
Matblack
19-03-2009, 09:34
I really don't understand how people can worship a false idol like the pope.
I don't think people worship him as such but they do take what he says to be the will of the church which is dangerous enough.
MB
I don't think people worship him as such but they do take what he says to be the will of the church which is dangerous enough.
MB
Still goes against the bible which is what their religion is meant to be based on.
Slinwagh
20-03-2009, 00:39
But the come back to that is, if they blindly followed religion. they wouldn't shag around and would abstain till marriage. So they ignore one message from him, but rigidly stick to the other.
Doesn't that sum up the hypocrisy of religion?
Doesn't that sum up the hypocrisy of religion?
Surely that just sums up the hypocrisy of man? That he says he adheres to one thing and then does another?
It's not like his faith has told him it's acceptable behaviour.
Doesn't that sum up the hypocrisy of religion?
Nope, just people.
my opinion?
religion is either a crutch for those too weak to hold themselves or a method of control for those too weak to control themselves.
blind faith is basicly being able to lie to yourself, it'll be all right because I believe isn't something to base your life around.
there may possibly be something out there, but the deranged ramblings that people worship are not it.
how about those that have faith, question it and as such don't belong to any church?
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