View Full Version : Please help me make the right camera choice
I'm going to put my previous thread on this subject to bed for now. It might turn out to be the right choice, but there are issues that need sorting first.
I'm not asking anyone to make a choice for me - I need to do that myself - but over the last several weeks I've come to the conclusion that I know more than enough to be dangerous, but I don't know enough to make the right choice, and I don't want to dump £1,000 on something that may turn out to be the wrong choice (that's the likely street price of what I was previously looking at).
So as not to over-complicate things, I'll ask questions one at a time and welcome any and all feedback (tell me I'm a stupid **** if you feel it's sufficiently constructive ;D).
1. Do I need a new digicam at all?
My reasons for looking for something new are simple. Both my existing cameras (Sony DSCP200 and Canon S3IS) are compacts. Like virtually all compacts, ISO100 is great in good light, ISO200 is OK, ISO400 is just about usable, and ISO800 is a joke. I keep my cameras firmly pinned at ISO100 whenever possible as a result.
I also don't like using flash unless I have to, because I don't tend to like the results (really needs a diffuser/bounce - something that isn't easy to do on a compact), or the puny flash isn't man enough for the job, so my low-light options are severely limited and all too often I get results that are only fit for the bin due to camera shake.
However, and this is the real downer, I've seen several images on review sites taken with the S3IS, and I only wish I could get even close to that good. I think, however, that I'm actually doing myself a disservice because others say I can take a decent enough photo (admittedly of the holiday snap variety). Doesn't stop me wanting to do better.
Discuss, and thankyou. :)
LeperousDust
25-04-2009, 05:01
I absolutely love my IXUS very muchly, but this isn't going to help you decide if you need a camera :p
I really like the photos i can take with it especially with CHDK (after messing a lot) for an ultra portable its astounding.
Yeah, valid point. Whatever happens I'll be keeping the S3IS around for a while as a second camera (and probably the DSCP200 as well).
Anyone got any thoughts? I've even been hunting around on Talk Photography today but it all seems a bit highbrow for me so not sure if it's worth asking this sort of question there. :dunno:
Had a play with a 450D today. Want. I wish I'd asked if anyone minded me having a go with their 40Ds when I had the opportunity.
If anyone told me I could read the status line in a Canon viewfinder, I'd have called them stark raving bonkers. But if I concentrate, I can. Unbelievable. Game changed. Makes the viewfinder in my S3IS look like a toy.
Edit - forgot to say - the Bridge camera I was originally going to get (SX1 IS) is unquestionably off the radar. DP Review is pretty conclusive on the subject. In fact, bridges in general go the same way - I can get a bigger screen, a few more MP (a.k.a. even more noise) and face detection. Wohoo. Not.
So it's DSLR or nowt.
Edit - I now realise general rambles don't work in this field. Taken it over to TP with a very specific task in mind. Thanks for reading. :)
After a fair bit of discussion over on TP, I'm going to go play 'find the body' down the camera shop tomorrow and see what I get on with.
There's a chance I may go Canon, and if I do, there's a 40D body on TP that looks like it's similar money to a new 450D:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=129341
I'm not sure if that's a good deal, so if someone could peruse it and let me know. I may need vouching services too please.
Amateur thoughts here :D
I'm lucky enough that Picky has an SLR I can play with if I want to! But when I had my compact digi canon camerall jobby I barely touched his SLR (only used it to play with/try and take a couple of snazzy shots) and 95% of the time I used my IXUS.... v3 I think!
My Canon Mark... was WOOOOOOONDERFUL! I grabbed it donkeys ago... just before I went to Uni... so I've had it about 7 years. It survived my clumsyness, being dragged to the beach day in and day out for 2years, it lived in a sock (I couldn't afford a camera case) and has been dropped countless times... and it SURVIVED! Amazingly! And not only did it survive but it took fab photos, was small and nifty and also took some darn wickedy woo films :D
It sadly passed away last year (just when I start to be less clumsy too) :( So I too am in search of a new one.
I've played around with a couple of other camera makes which peoples have had around me - pentax, panasonic and fuji. The pentax, in my opinion, could have been better than my canon (although it hadn't been through the 7 year durability test of mine and was a newer make). Panasonic I felt was a little clumsy to play around with... maybe it was just me not used to how to work it but I didn't like it. Fuji was nice but the one I played with was AA Battery operated which would annoy me... I want a rechargeable camera battery!
Sooo for me. I reckon I will go looksy and it will be a toss up between a pentax and a canon again. Possibly a biased opinion, but from my experience I feel the canon compact is like... the equivilent to the legendary nokia phone wise :)
If you're really looking at getting into some proper photography malarky, an SLR thingy would probably be best for you. If you're anything like me and just want to take huuuuundreds of quick snaps that turn out fab and have it on you 24/7 (don't have to worry about lugging it around all the time - it's easy enough to slip in your pocker) and aren't particularly fussed with things like depth of field and all that stuff I don't get... then stick to a compact jobby :) You can still do some nifty things with a compact... just not as much!
/nine eggs
LeperousDust
28-04-2009, 08:34
Pheebs don't go pentax, they're not bad compact cameras but they are as flimsy as anything i've broken two and a mate one before i stuck with my canon IXUS 85. Which is a much much better choice. If you want to spend/waste more money the Panonsic lumix FX series are just as good but have a better build and feel. I've got the canon and my mum has the Lumix FX1 fantastic pictures and wonderfully made little ultraportable, if i was buying a camera again i'd probably look at spending the extra myself on it.
Matblack
28-04-2009, 08:36
I believe that all my original points still stand
http://www.boat-drinks.co.uk/showpost.php?p=283087&postcount=6
Buying a 40d is a false economy, buy a 450d second hand and spend the money on glass, if this has to be able to cope with airshows as you have indicated else where and you are now happy to frame using the eye piece rather than 'live view', ('live view' on the canon is slower and less accurate and will not suit airshows at all) you are going to need fast focusing if not fast glass and that means investing in something like a 70-200 IS at the very minimum I would say, that gets you IS and a USM motor to overcome any shake at the user end, I'd couple this will a monopod to make doubly sure.
You can probably make out that I'm still very far from convinced that dSLR is the right route in this case but I've stated my reasons in addition to all of those a dSLR is going to be a money sink because the glass alone will cost you the same as 2/3 bridge cameras and I suspect that the results won't do the expenditure justice, call me a cynic if you wish.
If you are going to look at camera bodies then get them to put a reasonable zoom on (something like a 70-200) and make sure you feel comfortable holding it and panning with it because its going to be in your hand a lot of the day, remeber a 70-200 is at the low end of the zoom you will need and the longer the zoom the more that camera shake comes in to the equation and the more accuracy needed to sight on the target.
Pheebs I'd definatly look at the IXUS series, Aitch as a IXUS and its a great little camera :) The Lumix are great if you want a little more zoom or wide angle but are a little bigger :)
MB
Hmmm I will have a gander at the Panosonics then but I'm still loving the Canons. Going to take a lot to convince me otherwise. To survive me for so long... it's a pretty wicked make!
Thanks for the heads up on the flimsy side! *Chucks pentax to the side as it evidently won't pass Pheebs Clumsiness Test*
:D
Yup, I'd definitely agree with Canon or Panasonic, and Fuji make decent bridge cameras.
I'm mostly a happy snapper but there are times when I need that extra something that it seems only a DSLR can do.
Matblack
28-04-2009, 08:42
Yup, I'd definitely agree with Canon or Panasonic, and Fuji make decent bridge cameras.
I'm mostly a happy snapper but there are times when I need that extra something that it seems only a DSLR can do.
There are times when I need to drive really really fast but I haven't sold my house to buy a Ferrari Enzo.......... yet.
MB
Awesome! As long as you're happy to lug it around then fair play :) There's times I canny be bothered with that and since my Canon died I have missed many brilliant photo opportunities (and meals) to snap away at and am gutted! For me, I think I'm more of a happy snapper than I am a budding pro (as much as I like to play!) I like my wonky shots of stupidity :D
Just thought I would chuck in my perspective from being lucky enough to have both to hand :) If you honestly feel you will get more use out of a SLR jobby and more joy then go go go! Mister Matt seems to have lots of awesome info on them :D I'd go with whatever he was saying!
There are times when I need to drive really really fast but I haven't sold my house to buy a Ferrari Enzo.......... yet.
MB
I lolled ;D I think you just managed to sum up my point perfeckly :D
Thanks MB. Your opinion is certainly valued as you know me better than most. I totally agree that I'm borderline here - that's why I've spent so much time looking around.
As I said elsewhere, I have two current issues - noise and shadow detail. I know how to improve the situation with shadows now (dial up exposure compensation) but that probably makes the noise issue worse. I also did a test a few days ago with the S3 (shooting a streetlight against the sky) and when I went pixel hunting I discovered horrific fringing. You don't see this on a normal photo but I expect to be cropping heavily when it'll become very obvious.
My Canon S3 is a decent all-rounder - it just doesn't cope well with this problem (something photographers acknowledge is a difficult nut to crack - I've been reading the TP guides). I'm not going to get something just for an airshow (massive waste of money). My current frontrunner is now the Sony A300 (bargain price, decent Live View, comparable results at least at low ISO, and a proven system unlike the Panasonic), but I need to check out the viewfinder first. Canon is second. Panasonic is out of the running because I don't think they will be around in the UK by the end of May (I need lots of practice time).
I'm going to do exactly what you say - pick a few bodies (Sony A300/A350, Canon 450D, Nikon D60) and ask them to stick at least a 200mm on the end of it and then hold it properly and see how it feels to handle. Cheapest one that does the job wins.
My main reason for looking at the 40D was because there are a few around. That's not justificiation on it's own - just late night researching. If the cost to step up a level is only £50-£100, then I'll consider. If not, I won't. I suspect the latter but I wanted to keep my options open until I've had time to go hold some cameras.
Matblack
28-04-2009, 09:56
I've been thinking about this in the car on the way in and a few additional points that I think you need to consider.
Please bear in mind that if I thought you were doing the right thing going dSLR I would be supporting you all the way, I am not jelous, I have no reason for persuading you not to buy one other than I feel it will not give you what you want or it will but at a huge investment of time, money and compromise.
A bridge or a compact is a unit an SLR is a system.
Before I left I looked at my SLR kit and I was astounded by how much I carry for a days shooting. My Tamrac bag which I am sure you saw the last time we met is the size of a medium rucksac and contains mmy SLR body, a short zoom, a longer zoom, my filters, spare batteries, spare CF cards, my gorrila pod, remote release, if I had one my grip and depending on the situation my flash, altogether this is about 12lbs and takes up my whole back when traveling between shots. I would guess that this is the minimum someone would need if they wanted to shoot an airshow and take a few ground shots; you may wish to add a monopod and a seperate bag for a larger zoom.
Right now I have room in my bag for possibly a packet of sandwiches and an ipod, nothing else.On the other hand a compact or bridge contains everything it needs and can be kept around the neck or put on a belt, leaving the back free for whatever you need for the day especially if traveling by public transport which I know you do.
Less consistant
I've taken more rubbish with mmy SLR than any compact and I expect this to continue. You know this and I'm probably going over old ground by the difference between a dSLR and compact is like the difference between a Ford Fiesta and an F1 car, my point being that an F1 car needs constant tweaking to get the best out of it and a compact/ bridge can be driven by anyone with minimal skill or training. Yes a Canon dSLR has a green square setting where the camera will do everything but its not going to get you the best results certainly not for fast moving planes, if you are not getting intimate with the apature priority and time priority on your bridge cameras then again I wouldn't recomend the move, thats why I bought a bridge to see if I used all the flexibility and I did so I made the switch.
You are still going to be dispointed
Yep, I look at the pics on TP and other places, try to replicate them and fail and I have good glass (not great glass) and a good camera. However the guys who are shooting planes and putting them up on TP have great glass, great skill and have put in many many hours of fine tuning. A dSLR will still give noise even a 5D will, and 90% of pics shot on RAW (if your not using this then IMHO you probably don't need an SLR) will need some post processing work to remove anomolies and boost the sharpness and colours.
It'll eat time and money
I want L glass (well actually I want good glass the two are not interdependant), its irrational, its financially silly to spend £900+ on a lens that only does what my current lens does but a little bit better, but I STILL want it and you will too. I spent Sunday afternoon taking photos and then the evening post processing them and although I enjoyed a lot of it, it ate a day of my life. With a compact I'd have come home done something else and then shown what I had created to Aitch and watched a film. It probably took me 20-30 minutes for every shot I was pleased with and I was frustrated with many others :(
Its fantastic
When you hit a shot just right then its a great feeling, I find myself wanting to share my work with other people despite the fact its not very good, I want to spend hours post processinig and learning lightroom, I want people to tell me where I am going wrong on TP and here and offer C&C, I want to buy a new lens and play with bokeh and remote triggers and learn strobist technique and manual flash use........
but sometimes I wish I could point a camera at a target pull the trigger and put the camera back in my pocket and walk away and do something else and if you think that you might ever want to do that then think twice before you spend a lot of money :)
MB
I've been thinking about this in the car on the way in and a few additional points that I think you need to consider.
Thanks MB for taking the serious amount of time you have on this. Consider a beer (or several) owed. :)
Please bear in mind that if I thought you were doing the right thing going dSLR I would be supporting you all the way, I am not jelous, I have no reason for persuading you not to buy one other than I feel it will not give you what you want or it will but at a huge investment of time, money and compromise.
I know that, and I appreciate what you're doing.
A bridge or a compact is a unit an SLR is a system.
This is the biggest problem I'm having - not the distinction, but the choice of which system to choose. There are at least three, possibly four popular systems out there and they all have plus and minus points, though in most cases the differences are fairly subtle. Changing systems at a later date can be done but it's horrifically expensive, so I'm taking the 'do it once, do it right' attitude. That's just making the decision harder though.
Before I left I looked at my SLR kit and I was astounded by how much I carry for a days shooting. My Tamrac bag which I am sure you saw the last time we met is the size of a medium rucksac and contains mmy SLR body, a short zoom, a longer zoom, my filters, spare batteries, spare CF cards, my gorrila pod, remote release, if I had one my grip and depending on the situation my flash, altogether this is about 12lbs and takes up my whole back when traveling between shots. I would guess that this is the minimum someone would need if they wanted to shoot an airshow and take a few ground shots; you may wish to add a monopod and a seperate bag for a larger zoom.
This doesn't surprise me - I'd expect at least a body and two lenses, batteries, cards, filters, flash to come later etc. I have a Tarmac shoulder bag and I'm very adept at filling that even with the bridge (camera, batteries, filter ring, filters, hood, batteries, cards, etc.). This doesn't come as a surprise to me.
Less consistant
Expected - more things going on, more to go wrong. For the airshow job I expect to be machinegunning like crazy (so I'll need big cards). There's always going to be the disappointment when crap happens, but right now I tend to get the buzz from good work only to go pixel hunting and see how crap it is. That's me though - perfectionist. Most people would probably be perfectly happy with the results.
Yes a Canon dSLR has a green square setting where the camera will do everything but its not going to get you the best results certainly not for fast moving planes, if you are not getting intimate with the apature priority and time priority on your bridge cameras then again I wouldn't recomend the move, thats why I bought a bridge to see if I used all the flexibility and I did so I made the switch.
I very rarely use the green square on my bridge. I want to be able to make choices about ISO and the like. I tend to stick to Program AE most of the time because though it does most things automatically I still have options. I tend not to use Aperture and Exposure modes because I didn't understand the need (I do now), but I certainly do put the camera in Manual if I have the time and want to make the effort to try and do something special. I'm not as good at that as I'd like to be, primarily because I'm not good enough but also because I struggle to read overlaid data - something I now know a DSLR will fix for good.
Yep, I look at the pics on TP and other places, try to replicate them and fail and I have good glass (not great glass) and a good camera. However the guys who are shooting planes and putting them up on TP have great glass, great skill and have put in many many hours of fine tuning. A dSLR will still give noise even a 5D will, and 90% of pics shot on RAW (if your not using this then IMHO you probably don't need an SLR) will need some post processing work to remove anomolies and boost the sharpness and colours.
All utterly understood. I do some basic post-processing even now and I know I'll have to do more. It's one of my failings that I don't give it enough time. In fact, I don't give any hobbies enough time and that's going to get sorted at some point. More play and less sitting in front of a computer (that works even with post-processing time).
It'll eat time and money
Too bloomin' right it will. As I've admitted myself, I don't 'get' the whole desire for spending thousands on glass yet, but I'm sure I will. Give it time. :)
When you hit a shot just right then its a great feeling, I find myself wanting to share my work with other people despite the fact its not very good, I want to spend hours post processinig and learning lightroom, I want people to tell me where I am going wrong on TP and here and offer C&C
I'm in two minds about this bit. I want to learn for sure, but I've posted stuff before that I thought was reasonable and had it ripped to shreds. The points were all valid but it didn't feel good. On the other hand, I want to learn and you don't do that by keeping everything to yourself, so I'll take the hit.
but sometimes I wish I could point a camera at a target pull the trigger and put the camera back in my pocket and walk away and do something else and if you think that you might ever want to do that then think twice before you spend a lot of money
I will want to do that - undoubtedly so. I suspect even seasoned pros wish for that. If I'm going somewhere and just want a camera on the offchance, I'll usually pack the compact, not the bridge, and I don't expect that to change. I certainly won't take a DSLR down the pub for example (yes, I know some do). I'm not a massive camera user, which is why I don't want to blow thousands on kit I'm likely to break out once or twice a month at best.
It's all about finding a balance - at some point in the future I'll want a new camera and if I can get a low-end DSLR and some half decent glass (one short, one long and maybe add another couple later) then I'll be happy at least for now. What happens later, I don't know.
You have raised some very serious points that I need to go away and think about. Maybe one way around the moneypit problem is to set a hard limit on budget. I can spend £x on cameras and accessories over the next two years and that's it (consumables like batteries and cards are allowable). I'd already stated elsewhere that I was looking at £1000-ish.
As I've said before, I'm very much a borderline case (or a basket case if you prefer :p). I'm at the top end of the bridge camera user, but is that all I want to be? Probably not. I'm never, ever, going to be even serious amateur though, so where do I draw the line?
Matblack
28-04-2009, 11:12
Well if you've taken all that into account and you feel you can cope with using the viewfinder on a full time basis then go for it :)
MB
I loved the viewfinder on the 450D. Really got on well with that though it was only a quick play and I'm not yet 100% sure how I'd do with proper use. You don't spend all day looking down the viewfinder so it shouldn't be a problem.
I did make the mistake of having my finger near the focus ring while half-pressing the shutter. Won't be doing that again. ;D
However, it's all on hold while I get a quote for fixing my roof (shouldn't be monstrous so I'm told) but it's looking likely I'll get a bonus at the end of next month so if the cash currently sitting in my bank account doesn't pay for it, that probably will.
(yes, I do still have a few small debts but they're in hand - three-year savings account matures in September so that'll mop up any dregs).
LeperousDust
28-04-2009, 13:36
MB you're posts make me want to get a DSLR even more, this really annoying because there isn't really a chpea entry to the market. But i'd faffing love to play around like you're describing there. Its me to a tee. One day in the future when i have monies i will definitely be experimenting with my camera skillz. For now happy snap shots of drunken friends keep me somewhat happen. As long as i'm able to adjust a few little settings which canon compacts are very well known for!
Matblack
28-04-2009, 14:53
If you want to play about and see if you will get on with a dSLR than I suggest you graduate to a bridge camera, a Fuji 6500fd can be had for less than £100 on Ebay I suspect and will allow you more flexibilty and a better zoom than you compact, if that works out you can sell it for £20 less than you bought it for and buy a Canon 350d and kit lens for less than £250 (guessing) and work up from there. I warn you though its addictive.
MB
LeperousDust
28-04-2009, 14:59
Sounds amazing, and i truly would but i don't really sensibly have the money to invest (even in £100 bridge as bad as that sounds). I mean i've got money but i can't justify it to myself just yet, need a bigger disposable income before i do...
Please bear in mind that if I thought you were doing the right thing going dSLR I would be supporting you all the way, I am not jelous, I have no reason for persuading you not to buy one other than I feel it will not give you what you want or it will but at a huge investment of time, money and compromise.
A refreshing attitude. One of the things that began to put me off photography forums was the blind recommendation to all and sundry that they should buy an SLR even when they posted pretty much describing a compact to a T as their wish list.
An SLR is not for everyone. They're big, expensive, harder to use, can be harder to get good results from, they're heavy, they're hugely impractical.
But if you have a desire for the best and can live with that compromise then they make a great tool.
Totally random comparison - pizza. A proper fresh dough stonebaked pizza with nice cheese and good tomato sauce will always taste a thousand times better than a frozen oven cooked pizza. Most people will get by fine with frozen pizza and it would massively impractical to have your own stone pizza oven unless you really really loved making pizza. Actually, that's a crap comparison, all ive done is made myself hungry.
Matblack
28-04-2009, 15:45
Sounds amazing, and i truly would but i don't really sensibly have the money to invest (even in £100 bridge as bad as that sounds). I mean i've got money but i can't justify it to myself just yet, need a bigger disposable income before i do...
Speak to Stan, his Fuji is likely to become redundant soon and he might let you have it for a good price :)
MB
Stan_Lite
28-04-2009, 16:55
Speak to Stan, his Fuji is likely to become redundant soon and he might let you have it for a good price :)
MB
I was just about to post the same thing.
Assuming I get on well with the 300D, I'll be parting with my S6500fd soonish. I'll happily hold on to it for you until you have the cash if you want Alex.
LeperousDust
28-04-2009, 18:19
Sounds interesting :D I've got cash to go really if i reaaaally think i should, which i kinda do :p Hmmmmm ;D
It's a good plan Alex, coming from another person who has done the transition at least as far as Bridge. I've seen enough to know you can't go wrong with the Fujis, even though I didn't get one myself.
Been out hunting today. No money spent. Canon still the frontrunner in terms of its viewfinder, but not convinced about the grip yet. Wasn't the cheapest, and wasn't the most expensive either. Much more detail in my TP thread.
Lens hire hadn't even occurred to me. Bloody good idea and one I hadn't considered, but it could backfire by making me lust after whatever I hire. Camera comes first, however.
Now I really need to find out what's 'out there' secondhand. TP doesn't seem to have much and having recently been stung by eBay I'm a bit reluctant to go letting loose with a fair amount of cash over there.
LeperousDust
28-04-2009, 19:33
Reading the trustedreviews review of the 6500 really makes it sound pretty damn awesome, i'm really at two minds totally, i have so much money pouring out of me really, arg...
Don't do what I did and let it spiral out of control. If you can't afford, you can't. The end. It got to £25k with me. Three times. Never, ever again.
PS - for the concerned, I'm currently at £2.8k outstanding with half of that sat in my bank account right now. Only reason I haven't paid that half off is because I don't have to (interest free period). Even if I do get a new camera all of that will be gone before 2010 happens (unless of course my roof situation is much worse than I expect it will be - in which case the camera idea goes away first).
LeperousDust
28-04-2009, 20:30
No i'm (don't take this wrong) not that stupid :p I have desires and i'm pretty good at just doing lots of research and looking into things until i really do fall over an amazing deal. Remember it took me a year to choose my watch (and i didn't even choose it in the end :p). I'm happy in the knowledge i'm sensible to a certain extent. :D
Buying a 40d is a false economy, buy a 450d second hand and spend the money on glass, if this has to be able to cope with airshows as you have indicated else where and you are now happy to frame using the eye piece rather than 'live view'
As I know you've seen the thread, you might know I mentioned this point over at TP (without naming you). They pointed out the faster shooting (and bigger buffer) on the 40D, which is a very good point in the circumstances.
Doesn't make me want to buy one though. Spend more on the body = 100% framed shots only fit for the bin. Spend more on the glass = 50% framed shots that are usable. Easy peasy.
Of course, I'm still not even committed to Canon yet. :)
I have to say, I've been following your camera choice threads with interest Mark and I agree with everything MB has said. You really need to think long and hard about whether an SLR will really give you what you want. It's not a given that they will deliver perfect photos and you will make a huge leap backwards at first if you decide to get one because they're much much harder to get results from. However, you already know this and say you've taken it into account. So if you still think it's the right choice, go for it.
A refreshing attitude. One of the things that began to put me off photography forums was the blind recommendation to all and sundry that they should buy an SLR even when they posted pretty much describing a compact to a T as their wish list.
An SLR is not for everyone. They're big, expensive, harder to use, can be harder to get good results from, they're heavy, they're hugely impractical.
But if you have a desire for the best and can live with that compromise then they make a great tool.
Spot on! I feel the same about people who upgrade with every new model that comes out. OK, some leaps are worth making (300D to 40D for example), but I am amazed at the amount of money people chuck down the drain just to say they have the latest model. I think a lot of it is a "boys and their toys" thing.
Matblack
29-04-2009, 07:16
They pointed out the faster shooting (and bigger buffer) on the 40D, which is a very good point in the circumstances.
Of course they did they are camera geeks, there is aways something better on the next model up and always someone who will be happy to help you spend your money when they don't have to pay the bill. The 450d is a great camera and there will be a few around as the 500d is coming out, and no you don't need one of those either.
MB
Thanks lostkat. That's why I'm planning well ahead. I don't need the camera until July, but the sooner I get it the sooner I can start learning how to use it. Unfortunately there's no such thing as a 'practice airshow', so I'll have to deal with that on the day, but at least I'll have experience with using the new camera and the techniques from the old camera.
MB - yup, and I didn't buy it either. 500D isn't even close to being considered - cheapest I've found locally for them is £829 and for that money the 40D would make more sense for me. Jessops want £969. :/
Roof repair quote is in. £350. That leaves £900 available for cameras and I can find the other £100 of the budget by being careful with other spending. Get in. \o/
Eak! That's very brave of you spending wonga when you've got a debt!! Even if it's in the interest free bit of it jobby! I hate debts. Hate hate hate them. Have to pay upfront I do... the thought of having something unpaid really gives me the monkeys.
I'm probably saying that as I am a bit screwed monies wise at the moment though ;D
Hoping you get what you want and you're safe financially :D
Thanks for the thought Pheebs. I'm safe enough - mortgage excluded, I have more savings than debts but the financial benefit from leaving the savings alone for a while far outweighs the cost of maintaining the debts even if I end up paying a little interest on them (400% interest vs 1% interest), so I'm leaving them be for now.
The situation would change if I lost my job, but it's currently as safe as can be expected in a recession.
Thanks for the thought Pheebs. I'm safe enough - mortgage excluded, I have more savings than debts but the financial benefit from leaving the savings alone for a while far outweighs the cost of maintaining the debts even if I end up paying a little interest on them, so I'm leaving them be for now.
The situation would change if I lost my job, but it's currently as safe as can be expected in a recession.
:)
Well... I guess we all deal with debts differently! I'm surprised you're benefiting from keeping savings as opposed to paying off debts... I thought now is the time to make payments on debts as there's just no interest anywhere on savings at the moment. I just... *shudder*. I really hate HATE HATE debts and well right now... for me at least... nothing is 100% secure! You seem to be confident you're okie though which is good buuut I tell you what, if you say at the next meet you're broke and are in debt after spending a grand on a camera I'll poke you to death and quite possibly kick you up the bum :p ;D
I think you're the equivalent of a typical girl and shoes when it comes to spending money on electronic things! Madness! :p ;D
It's a SAYE account linked to my employer. As they're doing well, it's doing well. I could lose all of that interest if things go badly south in the next six months (which they could), but even if they do it can't go below the point at which the debts get cleared.
Having been in debt to the tune of £25k and beyond, there's no way in hell I'll go back there. In fact, my intention is to get it under a month's salary by the end of May and keep it there. If a new camera breaks that rule, no new camera.
Point taken though - it's not exactly the right order to do things in. It's just the way it has all worked out.
Cool beanios! Just remember, I will wear my ass kicking boots as a just-in-case next time I see you ;D
Hehehehe!
Canon 450D wins. It was up against Sony A300. They're both good, but the Canon viewfinder is better and that's important to me. Focussing (using kit lens in both cases to keep things fair) seems faster on the Canon too. I'll admit that the ease with which I got the Sony into a situation where it was focus hunting like crazy really didn't help its cause. Now to find a cheap body so I have the money to spend on a 70-300 IS (saving on that too as one just popped up over at TP).
I'd have to get new cards for the Sony so prowling the s/h and/or refurb market brings the price difference to less than £200 and that's with a Canon lens that retails for £469 vs a Sony lens at £179.
Spot on! I feel the same about people who upgrade with every new model that comes out. OK, some leaps are worth making (300D to 40D for example), but I am amazed at the amount of money people chuck down the drain just to say they have the latest model. I think a lot of it is a "boys and their toys" thing.
Too right. I'm still ultimately happy enough with my D70. I have no real need for anything better, it's a perfectly good tool. The poor high ISO performance annoys me sometimes and a nice D300 would be a good remedy but I don't have the £1000 to spend on such a thing :p
Too right. I'm still ultimately happy enough with my D70. I have no real need for anything better, it's a perfectly good tool. The poor high ISO performance annoys me sometimes and a nice D300 would be a good remedy but I don't have the £1000 to spend on such a thing :pYup, the 40D/50D has a few performance improvements and a shaky sensor, which would be fantastic as I'm sick of getting a dirty sensor (oo err!). However, the improvements aren't that vast that they would really make a difference, I still love my 30D and I'd rather get a new lens than a body if I had the cash anyway.
Done. 450D + 18-55 Kit. Got it retail but the price ended up being not that much more than they were going for on eBay yesterday (I'm sure they'll get cheaper now - always happens).
Currently negotiating on a nearly new 70-300 IS USM to do the long stuff, so I saved there too.
Of course, if I'd done it before the exchange rate went crap I'd have probably saved more.
(I'm sure they'll get cheaper now - always happens).
Prophetic. Sort of. As it's now an 'old' model that had to happen and I'm OK with that.
Charged and had a play but put it back away for the weekend so I don't spend the whole time playing. :)
Today I have been:
Making sure the camera works.
Getting practice changing lenses.
Leaning about exposure compensation and aperture priority.
Finding out how people look at you when you kneel on a footpath to attempt better composition (I couldn't get low enough, and my knees hurt :o).
Going to have a look through the card now to see what I got. :)
Yup, the 40D/50D has a few performance improvements and a shaky sensor, which would be fantastic as I'm sick of getting a dirty sensor (oo err!). However, the improvements aren't that vast that they would really make a difference, I still love my 30D and I'd rather get a new lens than a body if I had the cash anyway.
I tend to agree with you 30D to 40D (let alone 50D) wouldn't be worth it IMO as there's just not that much extra worth having.
I made the jump from a 400D to a 40D as it does offer me a lot of small improvements in many areas, such as speed, better AF, spot metering, better high ISO performance, finer ISO gradations, bigger screen, secondary LCD on top, better viewfinder etc etc etc.
Had I had a 450D rather than the 400D (as does a colleague at work), the situation would have been less clear cut as the 450D already has things which were factors in my decision to upgrade (such as spot metering, ISO button & viewfinder display, 3" screen.
Out at Silverstone yesterday, I saw a lot of people with very expensive glass (100-400L, 70-200 F2.8 IS, 400/500/600 primes etc) but using it on "older" bodies such as 30Ds and that's great tbh. If the body has all (or nearly all) of the functions you need then spend money on glass as it'll make more of a difference. I took this route myself when I got the 400D - I wanted the 40D but, as it was brand new at the time, it was a choice between a 40D and a walkabout zoom or a 400D and a walkabout plus a longer zoom. I decided to go the latter way as I could (and indeed have) upgrade the body at a later time when I needed to.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Not quite sure what I'm trying to say here but hope my experiences are helpful in some way :)
Yeah - that just helps me have confidence I'll be happy with the 450D for a while. I'd take things like a few extra FPS if someone shoved them in front of me, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get them. The 450D is a keeper. As for glass, well, who knows. :)
Well my colleague is very happy with his 450D. He uses it with a 17-85 IS USM and a 100-400L IS USM (so close to £1500 worth of glass) and doesn't find the body lacking at all.
As for glass, the kit lens and 70-300 (did you get it in the end) will do the job but you'll start getting the itch for better lenses after a while - gets us all eventually :) )
Hoping to have a 70-300 IS soonish. I might consider hiring a 100-400L, but I won't be buying one for a while. :p
Davey_Pitch
09-05-2009, 22:01
I was looking at the 70-300IS as well, but I went for the 55-250IS in the end as from the reviews and comparison shots I saw it appeared to be quite a bit sharper, though the extra length of the 300 would have been nice. I love my 450D as well, need to get out and use it more now the weather is picking up.
Given what I'm planning to use it for, t'was the length I was after. I'd have probably gone for the 250 though had the 2nd hand one not turned up when it did. I'm only a little over budget too which is better than expected.
Only problem I've got is the 300 is a bit front-heavy so at some point in the future I suspect I'm going to need a grip. Not yet though.
Grabbed a cheapy monopod from Jessops and an aftermarket grip off t'bay. As noted in the RSI thread I'm having a few wrist problems and the 70-300 lens is putting a fair bit of torque on that wrist, so I'm trying to balance it out with the grip and take the load off completely when practical with the monopod. If I find I'm using the monopod I'll replace it with a better version with a quick release, but that can wait for now.
While I'm not planning an immediate upgrade, I would certainly appreciate comments on what would be a good upgrade from the 18-55 IS kit lens. If anything, I'd like a bit more range.
PS - there's a photos thread with no photos in it. I should have that fixed in the next 2-3 weeks, weather permitting.
Davey_Pitch
06-07-2009, 00:42
The Sigma 17-70 is a good upgrade from the kit lens. The glass is better but you lose out as it has no image stabilisation built in, though you'll be compensating for that somewhat if you're using the monopod for some of your shots. It really depends on how much you're looking to spend though, as you could go for something like the 24-105mm f4 if you were looking to spend a lot of money on it (which I'm guessing you're not, but 2nd hand is always an option there).
I'm not planning to go wild, so to speak. I'm definitely into the second hand market now (should've listened to MB and done that with the body as well, but being my first entry into the market I wanted a little peace of mind :))
Sigma 17-70 was the one I knew about thanks to MB and now you.
What prompted this post was the Canon 17-85 IS I spotted on TP. I like IS given my shaky hands - monopod notwithstanding as I got that more for the long lens. Seems that it might be slightly slower than the 17-55 kit I've already got though and I would rather hold out unless it's a ridiculous bargain. Given that it was/is the kit lens for the 40D I'm sure there will be more about if that proves to be the right route.
Matblack
06-07-2009, 08:36
Third party short to mid zooms blow the Canon offerings away unless you pay a lot of money (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/reviews/Canon-EF-S-17-55mm-f-2.8-IS-USM-Lens-Review.aspx), I'd look at the Sigma and Tamron offerings as the IQ is better then Canons for a similar cost or less. If you can use your camera properly you don't really need IS at these ranges for normal photography although having it does add a lot of you want to get into the artier end of DOF or are doing a lot of low level work.
I may be looking up upgrade at some point in which case I will be moving the 17-70mm on but not for a little while yet.
MB
Thanks all, that comparison was the information I was missing and what I needed to convince me to wait it out and consider 3rd party glass if/when the time comes. Money stays in bank account.
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