View Full Version : I want to go racing... Help needed
Hi folks...
I know Vix and Kaiowas are both active MR2 racers, and im sure i remember reading about someone else on here that also does it. Basically Im very interested in getting into track racing and time attack type events, im looking for some guides, pointers and advice really. Ive no clue where to start looking for information, what kind of club license etc i need to take part in competitive events.
Im prepared to spend what it takes to get my current car (Honda CTR EP3) kitted out to the required level, stripping, roll cage, extinguishers, etc.
Anyways, any links, forums, tips and advice would be greatly welcomed, Thanks Darryn.
This is all on the back of the fact ive got bored of Photography, so thats freed up some spare cash, and ive done a couple of trackdays with some great feedback from the instructor... I think ive finally found something i don't suck at.
Just rushing out to work so this is a quick post, but you sound like sprinting is a good idea, slightly cheaper too to begin with.
I'm sure Phil will be on hand later, but have a look around for MSA sprints. Your outlay as well as prepping the car will be an MSA non race licence (if you do MSA sprints which most are), race clothing, helmet etc.
Check the regs for rules on what you can and can't do to the car as well.
Del Lardo
13-05-2009, 07:40
Sprints are a very good way of starting some racing as there is minimal chance of you damaging your car if you get it wrong.
Is the Civic your only car and what would happen if you did crash it? If you can't afford to write it off then I very much doubt you can afford proper racing though I'd be happy if someone can prove me wrong.
Personally I'd stick with track days, Sprints have never struck me as particularly good value as they generally cost ~£60 and you get anything from 6-18 minutes of actual track time (dependant on circuit). While a track day is more expensive, you get a lot more track time for your money.
If you do want to do racing then it could be worth looking into something like http://www.pbmwc.co.uk/ though when I looked into it a few years back the cost was about £4k for the car and ~£10k for the race season assuming you didn't seriously damage the car.
Most sprinting in the UK is run under the regulations of the MSA. To be eligible for MSA events you need to be a member of an invited motor club plus you need an MSA National B non-race licence. Getting the licence is a simple matter of filling in a form and handing over £30 or so. This needs renewing annually. You'll also need proper fireproof overalls etc and a motorsport approved crash helmet. Entry will cost somewhere in the order of £100 or so per event for which you'll typically get 2 practice runs plus 2 or 3 timed runs. A single MSA sprint will include many classes, in production cars alone there'll be 3-4 bands of engine capacity as well as 3 levels of modification:
Standard Production cars - Virtually no modifications allowed at all.
Road going saloon and sports - Modifications to engine, suspension etc allowed but there are restrictions on what is/isn't allowed.
Modified production sports and saloon - Just about anything goes.
If you're looking to try MSA sprinting I'd suggest starting out in Road going saloon and sports with the Civic and see how it goes. You won't be able to strip it out (one of the restrictions of this class is that your complete interior needs to remain in place) and depending on how your engine size fits in with the classes you may find yourself with no chance of winning anything but it'll get you a feel for what sort of outlay is required to be competitive in the various classes, what class you want to compete in and what car is best for the job.
The sprinting that Me, Vix and Zirax do (Toyota Sprint Series (http://www.toyota-sprint-series.com/forums/)) is not affiliated with the MSA at all. It runs to different rules with a different class structure. For people who just want to try competitive motorsport I think it's much more accessible as you can have a go with no upfront costs (there's no requirement for a fireproof suit, and crash helmets can be hired on the day). We also get 8 timed runs per event for a similar outlay to an MSA event. Of course not having a Toyota will prove a slight hinderance but that's nothing that can't be worked around ;D Javelin who run the sprints also run track events on the sprint course at Barkston Heath which are open to any car if you fancy taking the Civic along for a go.
Circuit racing is a whole new level of expense and commitment. And is probably something to save for further down the line. Getting a licence, registering for a championship and paying your race fees for a season will easily eat up a few thousand before you've even thought about a car. As for the car itself I'd probably not even consider using the Civic. To keep costs somewhere sensible you'll be wanting to start out in a one make series with limited modifications allowed as if you try a more open series you'll find there are plenty of people with the resources to simply spend their way to the front. Once you've selected the series you want to compete in then you'd be best off buying a pre-prepared car, it'll save you a lot of trouble and expense. Then there are running costs to consider, compared to sprinting you'll be a lot harder on the car and that's assuming you stay out of trouble. In a split second you can very easily destroy the car and find yourself either out for the season or facing a huge bill simply to stay on track....
Just to echoe some of the posts above. One of the reasons I chose to do sprinting in a mk1 mr2 is the cost. For instance if I write the car off into a wall, I will be pissed off, but it is not going to cripple me to quickly go out and get another one and swap over the bits. At the moment your Civic looks good, but I am unsure how a stripped one will compare resale wise as well. I would look at getting a second car for track / sprinting use. Simply because you really don't need a nice looking car.
Circuit racing is wayyyy to expensive, unless you have some serious money behind you. One of the things that puts me off is the ongoing costs. It's all to easy to get a knock and have to repair it each weekend. Sprinting is not really that hard on the car, typically its shorter track meaning you won't have the 20 min continual strain on all the systems.
Okey kokey thanks for that everyone,
If i crashed the Civic, assuming i walked away, i would buy another and salvage any undamaged parts, Civics are cheap enough and ive now got access to a 2car garage for spares/repairs. :)
Trackdays are great fun for learning the track and the cars limits, but, the Javelin ones dont allow timing, so, ive no real idea, besides overtaking stuff, how fast/slow and how much i improve over the course of the day...
Sprints seem to be just what i want, after looking on the MSA website it also mentions Hillclimbs, which is another avenue im now interested in.
Im disappointed that circuit racing is soo expensive, my budget will be upto ~£10k per year, i could throw more money at the project, but, im saving for a house. :(
I realise with simple entry fees, servicing and consumables £10k isnt going to go very far, let alone any damage i pick up, so, Sprints+hillclimbs are the only option.
Ive downloaded the MSA competition Application form and will read thru and fill it in at work... It looks like ill have to make a doctors appointment, which im not looking forwards too.
Ive checked out Javelin (who i did my trackdays with) and the only sprint series they run are the Toyota one, i could buy a Toyota of course, and ive got a lust for a Supra, but, i want to get experience with FWD before i swap to RWD.
So thanks again, any more info is more than welcome and ill keep you updated with my progress.
The Javelin days at Barkston aren't really a conventional track day. They're generally listed as drift days although if there's interest they'll open up the sprint course as well, as there's only one car out at a time and no passengers their insurance then allows them to time your runs. Worth contacting Colin and asking what they've got coming up.
Shouldn't need a medical or anything for an MSA licence unless there's already something wrong with you. I've applied twice and didn't need one either time.
Although Javelin only run the Toyota series MLR run one for Evos which I think is still going and there was a story on PH a few months about another one starting up which I seem to recall was a scooby series. If you're seriously tempted by the Toyota series I can give you plenty of advice, first thing being that Supras are a bit lardy and not really nimble enough. We've had a couple turn up but it doesn't really suit them.
Del Lardo
14-05-2009, 14:48
Darryn, I think that you are going about this all wrong.....
You want to go racing but have no experience in a RWD car :shocked: and this is something that IMO you should sort out pretty quickly.
From what I remember your Civic is pretty heavily moddified and without wanting to detract from what is a bloody good hot hatch it is not a sports car. I can't claim to have loads of experience in a Civic but I did take one out for a 2 hour unaccompanied test drive a few years ago when I was considering one as a 2nd car and on the road I was way faster in the Civic than I was in my Elise as I could jump in and drive it at 9/10th straight away as it was such an easy car to drive. Now while this is great on the road I imagine this would get very boring on the track very quickly as there would be no real challenge.
For your £10k budget you are easily into Westfield/Elise territory or if you wanted to start off spending less money a MX-5 would suffice. They are not going to have the huge power figures of something like a Civic but they weigh a lot less and offer something far more important, a geniunely engaging driving experience. Forget power understeer and get ready to learn to catch the back end under power and enjoy a subtlety of car control that you will never experience in a Civic.
As for track day timing, there is an easy way around it. Fit a camera and film the time on track. Not only will this allow you to work out your lap times but also analyse where you can improve in the cold light of day when the addrenaline isn't running.
Cheers Del Lardo, several good points there. :)
Unfortunately Ive only been driving for 18months now and my short experience ive only had a a couple of hours in a RWD car, my sisters MX5, i had too much fun but as you say it was a more rewarding driving experiance. My main problem with this is a 2nd car is pretty much a non-option atm... Due to my lack of driving experiance and low NCB means to insure a 2nd car is very costly.
The idea about mounting a video camera and analysing the footage for timing and also improvement is a great idea... Ill look into bullet cameras for mounting into/under both the bumpers. :)
I did enjoy my time on track with the Civic, as you say the ease at which it can be driven relatively fast was a lot of fun. The LSD and Geometry work has balanced the power understeer and lift-off oversteer to make it very predictable and controllable.
My Civic is quite well modified, simply to improve the safety and trackworthyness...
Tar-Ox G88 Brake Disks all around
Ferodo DS2500 pads all around
Goodridge Braided Hoses all around
AP racing 551 Dot5.1 fluid
Eibach ProKit Lowering Springs
D2 Camber Kit
TyreSure Sensors
Toyo R888
Buddy Club Oil Sump Baffle
Quaife LSD
I am currently planning on adding a Rotrex Supercharger (330bhp) and either Endless, Brembo or Stoptech big brake upgrade kit... The Torox are apparently not all that good and are prone to warping.
Maybe i should save the cash instead. I want to stick to a single car solution for both track and daily drive. Im thinking Elise or S2000, ive test driven both and preferred the S2000 power delivery, but, the Elise would probably more fun on track. Unfortunately due to where i live a Westfield/Caterham is out of the question, it would attract too much un-wanted attention from the local low-life.
Justsomebloke
14-05-2009, 23:40
What's your local track ???
I'd spend a bit of time there mate, Put your face about get to know a few marshals, Hang in the pits, Pick up tips rules & regs etc You are also pretty likely to get a track day car For sale as well & that would be ready to race rather than need all the mods prior. ;)
Local track, i havent got one really. :(
3Sisters (45miles) is my closest, but its too short/twisty more suited to bikes and karts.
Croft (60miles), but its not running many trackdays anymore due to noise issues.
Elvington airfield (70miles) Been had fun, but airfields arent a real testing experience.
Oulton Park (75miles) the other place ive been, great day out.. Suppose i wouldnt mind a few more days here.
Ill follow the advice so far, get more days booked at Oulton Park, get some recording gear rigged up and stick to trackdays until i have decided what to look for in terms of a proper RWD track toy.
Justsomebloke
14-05-2009, 23:59
Move to Hinckley, We have Mallory 5 mins & Donnington 35 mins. House prices are pretty damn sweet an all, Right that's the Answer, Everybody from the Interwebz moves to Hinckley & we all buy off each others businesses & attend each others partys. :party1:
Flibster
15-05-2009, 00:00
Maybe i should save the cash instead. I want to stick to a single car solution for both track and daily drive. Im thinking Elise or S2000, ive test driven both and preferred the S2000 power delivery, but, the Elise would probably more fun on track. Unfortunately due to where i live a Westfield/Caterham is out of the question, it would attract too much un-wanted attention from the local low-life.
Really don't use your daily drivers as a track car. I've had to do that on a couple of occasions with works Elises and track days really add quickly to wear - ended up having the daily driver and the track prepped cars at work. Especially as at some point you will break it at the track, or in my case lump them into concrete or end up on their roofs... When things go wrong, they can go wrong very quickly indeed.
Seriously consider getting a cheap rwd car to learn how to drive it properly.
My first true track only car was a very nasty Porsche 944. Bodywork was painted in hammerite I believe - mecahnicals were essentially sound though. Plus I didn't car what it was like on the inside as it was stripped bare.
Paid £2500 and after 2 years of being thrashed, sold it for spares at £2000
However, 6 sets of tyres in 2 years, roughly the same (probably higher though) in brake pads, oil changes before every day on track amongst other spares made it not a cheap proposition.
Hmm.... I believe there are internal Vacancies at Ansty right now... thats not far away at all. ;)
Thanks Mr Flibster, i suppose at only a couple of grand a cheap RWD car would also be relatively disposable...
My dad is retired now, and has all the gear and garage to work on the car. I might put it too him that i buy a car, he insures it in his name with me as a named driver, stick it in his garage, we both work on it and we both us it on track days... Im sure he would be up for that. :) Something like an Old Porsche, TVR, MR2 or 200SX would be fun to play with.
Surprised that you're saying insurance for a second car is an issue whilst also talking about supercharging the Civic. I'd have thought the insurance hike for the SC would almost pay to insure a cheap track car on limited mileage.
CaptRugWash
15-05-2009, 21:04
'Shakes head'. Racing in an MR2 is pathetic, it's a hair dressers car for christ sake!
Get on then! ;D
http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll50/PageysPics/MR2/Sprint_Round_2_May_09_200.jpg
Flibster
15-05-2009, 21:21
Something like an Old Porsche, TVR, MR2 or 200SX would be fun to play with.
How much spare time do you have?
An old TVR would take up most of it in pieces on your drive. ;)
As for spare time, i work 37hr afternoon shifts so get every weekend and all mornings to pursue hobbies. As i said above, my dad is retired now and ive spoken to him today, he is more interested than i expected and offered to go halves on the project, as it appears he has always wanted to get on track... :confused: never knew that before today. :)
Having him onboard will help a lot, because he has a lot of welding experience, all the workshop gear and a dolly. Sharing the driving with him might get annoying, but, hes old (55) so he wont have the stamina :)
Im going to see him tomorrow and thrash out some ideas, initially we are both interested in Toyotas, we both prefer the look of the mk2 and a quick hunt shows many cheap examples...
300bhp tubby (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1033162.htm), t-bar (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/785307.htm), only 11yo (http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1019056.htm)
Looking now, it makes much more sense going down this route than spending more on my CTR.
Yep sounds like a good idea. With him on board having the tools it'll save a fortune (I know as I had to buy them all). Driving wise there will be more than enough time for both. I share my car in the sprint series and have no issues. I think you'll be surprised how much stamina your old man will have when he starts getting the back end out :D That being said, mine nearly filled his pants when the back stepped out off the roundabout (his pug 309 derv don't do that) ;D
For track work, forget the t-bar its also
"gorgeous lamborghini purple"
This gives a strong indication of what persuation you need to be to drive this thing :p T-bar's are also out as in sprinting / track days they make you take the glass out. If its cold and raining ..... tough. Sunroof or tin-top if they did them. Again as your dad is handy with a welder, take out the sunroof and weld in a plate.
Get in there Darryn. I expect to see you in the 2010 Toyota Sprint Series, and hope you can make a couple of events this year if you get a car sorted :D
By the way Matt, pics are up from Barkston. Who went off roading?
Me, you can get nothing past them :D
He caught part of my save. Really happy with that save actually, shows I am improving. Before I would have had no chance. Can't really tell but the car was going very sideways. That off was at about 60 ish, whole thing took no more than a 2-3 secs.
Good to see.
I was so confident of where this thread was heading I didn't even suggest an MR2 at any point ;)
Im 1 step closer, got the garages cleaned out and freed up some cash... So, MR2s, what do i want. :p
Been watching this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120420664236)
Was thinking of going and having a look over the weekend, but about 30mins before i was going to ring the seller he ended the ebay auction. :(
I definitely want a mk2 rather mk1 shape, also, as has already been said, tintop rather than t-bar or sunroof model... But, what about engine spec? The ones ive been looking at have been 2.0 turbo.. But, having never driven a turbo car, i dont know how suited it would be for trackdays.
Don't really know a great deal about mk2s, you're probably best off looking around on IMOC however I know this much:
Turbos are all imports
If getting a turbo then ideally you want a rev3 at least as they have more power and revised rear suspension
A turbo will put you in the biggest, most competitive class in TSS as it's the same engine that's fitted to the GT4s
mk1s still look better ;)
As for the class ill be entering into, im not overall bothered, i fully expect to be finishing very low if not last in whatever class i manage to enter... That isnt a huge concern, getting on track and having fun is what its all about, for now.
Cheers, ill sign up there... already signed up at MR2OC.com, MR2OC.co.uk... ill check the for sale forums and possibly get a wanted thread up. :)
A Place of Light
07-06-2009, 00:50
The idea about mounting a video camera and analysing the footage for timing and also improvement is a great idea... Ill look into bullet cameras for mounting into/under both the bumpers. :)
If you can afford to throw £10k per year at this then IMHO you need to go for some proper data logging kit. Cams will only tell you part of the story.
http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=118795
This any good for you? Bargain bucket rev 1 for track use. 149k km on the clock. It's not the prettyiest but it'll do the job nicely. It'll be a little snappy on the back end being a rev 1.
Ive been and tyre kicked a couple of cars (MR2s), neither any where near the condition the sellers suggested... So, what with this and other annoying personally problems ive sidetracked this plan for now.
Ive spoke to Colin at Javelin and he is already looking at running a differant Sprint series next year, from what he has said about it, its only in the planning stages, so nothing is finalised yet.
Im now waiting for Colin to get more info about the possibility of alternative series.
I will probably be booking a Barkston Heath Sprint session to see how i like the Sprint format. And ive got 4 more trackdays planned with the various Honda based forums.
A Place of Light
28-06-2009, 11:17
^^^
You'd be far better off choosing an MX5 as your first car.
It's more predictable than an MR2, it's more controllable than an MR2, it's more communicative to the driver than an MR2 and it's a better tool to help develop your skills as a driver than an MR2.
That said, the MR2 is a better performer but it's less suitable for the novice IMHO.
When you say communicative, what do you mean? Having owned a MR2, I'd agree with you about it being more pliable than the MR2 in terms of what you have to go thorugh if/when you get it wrong (and of course it going wrong in the first place!) but communication? My MR2 was as communicative as you like!
I'm sure kaiowas would agree too?
Well, im going to push Colin for some more info, i have considered getting an MX5 before now after test driving one and hugely enjoying it.
If the new Sprint Series allows either/both the CTR and MX5 id be more than happy to uprate both to track-worthiness levels, and then having 2 decent little cars would allow me to summer/winter cars and also less problems when i stack either, on track or off.
Javelin have an MX5 you can hire for trackdays so you could give that a go and see what you think?
I'm not sure of APoL's experiences with either car but they both have the reputation of being a 'drivers car' so it's probably down to personal choice.
A Place of Light
29-06-2009, 01:09
When you say communicative, what do you mean? Having owned a MR2, I'd agree with you about it being more pliable than the MR2 in terms of what you have to go thorugh if/when you get it wrong (and of course it going wrong in the first place!) but communication? My MR2 was as communicative as you like!
I'm sure kaiowas would agree too?
In experienced hands the MR2 is both more rewarding and a better performer in both the handling AND speed stakes. But, being mid-engined, the MR2 is less progressive and doesn't give the novice enough warning when it's about to go Pete Tong.
The Mk2 rev 1 turbo is the hardest of them to play with if you're inexperienced as by the time you've figured out that things are going wrong you are already beyond the point of recovery. Experience will tell you it's coming before the car does and you'll be ready for it, but for a novice it's a bad call IMHO.
A Place of Light
29-06-2009, 01:14
I'm not sure of APoL's experiences with either car but they both have the reputation of being a 'drivers car' so it's probably down to personal choice.
Quite a bit on both cars, and I'd agree with your point above if I'm honest.
I was only mentioning that if I were a novice I'd go with the MX5 as it's a better tool in standard form IMHO. Few novices have experience of how to drive a mid-engined car (and on the limit it is a little different to a front engined/rear driver) and I think it's fair to say that a novice will also have a less steep learning curve than with the Mr2.
Well, im going to push Colin for some more info, i have considered getting an MX5 before now after test driving one and hugely enjoying it.
If the new Sprint Series allows either/both the CTR and MX5 id be more than happy to uprate both to track-worthiness levels, and then having 2 decent little cars would allow me to summer/winter cars and also less problems when i stack either, on track or off.
What's he told you about the new series? I know they were trying to get a "French Sprint Series" (Leon, are you watching ;) ) off the ground this year that didn't happen, wondering if they're still trying to go ahead with that or if they're trying something else.
Also if you're still planning to do Barkston we're hoping to go to their day on July 12th if you (or anyone else) are interested.
vBulletin® v3.7.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.