View Full Version : New building regulations for bathrooms - Unbelieveable.
There was a doris interviewed on the wireless a few days ago talking about the new building regulations for bathrooms.
Baths will have to come fitted so that it's not possible to run the water hotter than a certain temperature! The presenter was gobsmacked and really couldn't believe what he was being told. It's all down to safety regulations because there are quite a few cases of burns due to overly hot baths.
What has the world come to? Someone somewhere has dictated that our baths shouldn't be too hot.
This probably won't affect me because I'm not planning on moving or having a new bathroom fitted anytime in the future but I absolutely love to have a really really hot bath - If I ever move to a new property I won't be able to have my monkey bath any more :( because some faceless official has said so.
Sam's not going to like that news at we're gonna do our bathroom at some point in the future.
Flibster
08-08-2009, 20:04
A bath has two taps. A hot one and cold one - you are allowed to use both.... ****WITS!
How am I meant to break in new boots? I normally put them on, stand in the bath and then fill with hot water to soften them - then do a milee walk or so, then repeat.
Once agaian, numpties spoil it for the rest of us.
Feek if i read what you said right from what i know it will be done with a blending valve under the bath but these can be adjusted to set the temperature, so nothing stopping you after install adjusting it higher if you have one for future tweaking ;) Thats if this stupid rule is passed.
Unfortunately Health and Safety are having to cater for the lowest common demoninator, otherwise known as idiots who don't realise that getting into a bath that's had just hot water poured in will be hot enough to burn.
How long until kettles are only allowed to heat water until it is tepid? Maybe I should get used to making tea with tepid water for when Health and Safety muppets get involved.
Sam's not going to like that news at we're gonna do our bathroom at some point in the future.
Too bloody right!!! FFS I'm just.....GRRRRR When we get around (aka can afford) a new bathroom, if someone tells me I can't have my bath as hot as I want then BD will have to visit me in jail for assault with whatever comes to hand :angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:
F**king interfering no life self righteous up-their-own-ar5es boring good-for-nothing IDIOTS!!!
*and breath*
How long until kettles are only allowed to heat water until it is tepid? Maybe I should get used to making tea with tepid water for when Health and Safety muppets get involved.
If Health and Safety ever dare tell me that, they will be told to f*ck right off.
God I hate H&S jobsworth killjoy muppets.
:angry:
A bath has two taps. A hot one and cold one - you are allowed to use both.... ****WITS!
Not any more, there will be a single mixer tap. No separate hot/cold units and if you just wind up the hot water, it'll cut out once it reaches a certain temperature.
Feek if i read what you said right from what i know it will be done with a blending valve under the bath but these can be adjusted to set the temperature, so nothing stopping you after install adjusting it higher if you have one for future tweaking ;) Thats if this stupid rule is passed.
The rule has already been passed. The presenter asked the question and was told that the temperature will be set upon installation and is not adjustable afterwards.
How long until kettles are only allowed to heat water until it is tepid? Maybe I should get used to making tea with tepid water for when Health and Safety muppets get involved.
Once daft tart doris had gone, this is one of the things he said as well, it's absolutely ridiculous. How long before we can't have sharp knives in the kitchen to stop cuts. What about paper? Paper cuts are painful so let's ban paper. There are a lot of books, they should be burned! Oh no, we can't burn them because fire is dangerous *sigh*
Padded cells all around then. ::/:
Kell_ee001
08-08-2009, 21:16
I asked one of the women at work if everything was ok as she was just stood in the toilets watching the tap run at full pelt - she said she has to let it run several times a day and test the temperature as some people complained it was too hot :rolleyes:
Flibster
08-08-2009, 21:36
Not any more, there will be a single mixer tap. No separate hot/cold units and if you just wind up the hot water, it'll cut out once it reaches a certain temperature.
*gets hammer and tries to locate the numbnuts who came up with this...*
To be fair, has anyone actually read the regulations to see what the limits will be?
Or is everyone just angry and outraged over something that might turn out to be entirely sensible?
I think people are more annoyed that H&S are sticking there noses in where people don't want them stuck.
What I do in my home has nothing to do with H&S.
The tart on the radio gave out the details including the range of temperatures it's allowed to be set at and I can't remember the exact figure but it wasn't entirely sensible.
/edit - Found it.
The final part of G3 is a new requirement intended to prevent scalding and requires that the hot water supply to any fixed bath in a newly formed dwelling must be designed and installed with measures to ensure that the temperature of the water that can be delivered to the bath cannot exceed 48C. This final part of G3 applies when a dwelling is created through new-build or conversion.
I like monkey baths, damnit.
It's also regulation that you're not allowed to draw more than 125 litres/day/person.
Details here (http://www.west-norfolk.gov.uk/Default.aspx?page=25224)
What I do in my home has nothing to do with H&S.
This^^
The limit could be boiling point and I'd still be p*ssed off.
People say "oh but children could be hurt, woe is me" and my response is that everyone else bloody well survived without these "precautions" !!!
The 125l/d/p is perfectly fine, you won't use more than that unless you lead an incredibly wasteful lifestyle.
As for the limit of 48C, that doesn't sound horrifically 'stupid' to me.
I don't see the problem, plenty of other things are controlled by building standards, I don't see why water temperature should be any different.
How would I fill up my pool which takes around 11,000 litres of water? It shouldn't matter a flying fig what sort of lifestyle I lead, I'm on a meter so if I want to use more water then who is to say I can't? I'm paying for what I use.
Extend that to fuel.
"Sorry mate, you can't put any more petrol in your car today, you've had your 100 litres."
"But I'm 200 miles from home and my tank is empty."
"Tough, the Officials who decide these things know best. I can sell you a sleeping bag and a camp bed though"
Stupid isn't it. I pay for it, let me bloody well have it!
A pool is considered separately.
1.4
Large water consuming installations such as swimming pools and jacuzzis where the
water is replaced over a greater time interval do not need to be included as part of
the water calculations for Part G or for the Code. The Code does however assess such
fittings as part of Issue Wat 2, External Water Use.
Von Smallhausen
08-08-2009, 22:23
I like monkey baths too.
I don't like being told what to do like what they are proposing. It reeks of nanny state.
You're missing the point though. Why should anyone have the right to tell me what I can and can't use in my own home, especially if I'm quite prepared to pay for what I use?
They're not. I've just had a quick skim read and I don't think you're understanding the 125l/d/p thing. Saying it is a 'regulation that you cannot draw more than 125' is misleading and not true.
They're not gonna have SWAT teams smashing through your windows the moment you go a drop over 125. In fact, they won't even be checking.
It's a construction guideline to promote more efficient new builds. It's a target of theoretical usage to meet.
1.1
The following document sets out the Water Calculation Methodology for assessing the
whole house water efficiency of new dwellings. The calculation method is to be used
to assess compliance against the water performance targets in Building Regulations
Part G and the Code for Sustainable Homes (referred to in this document as the Code)
as set out below. It is not a design tool for water supply and drainage systems. It is also
not capable of calculating the actual water consumption of a new dwelling. Behaviour
and changing behaviour can also have an effect on the amount of potable water used
throughout a home.
Building Regulation 17K requires that the potential consumption of wholesome water by persons occupying a dwelling must not exceed 125 litres per person per day when calculated in accordance with the methodology set out in the CLG's document 'The Water Efficiency Calculator for New Dwellings'.
It's basically to ensure new builds aren't wasteful, nor promote wasteful behaviour.
It's not a limit being applied to anyone.
If this was just a guideline why use the wording of "MUST NOT exceed" and not "should not exceed". Two completely different things.
building standards
To me building standards = it isn't going to fall down on anyone else, it isn't detrimental to other peoples homes, etc - the temperature I have my bath/shower really isn't going to affect anyone else other than me and the rats who hear me going "ooo ooo ooo" as I get in.
I know you're mainly talking about water consumption but the fact is they have packaged the whole thing together which I don't think is on - water meters with all "old" houses are optional - if they want to introduce any temperature controls into pre-existing houses, they should be optional too.
Because the guideline is that a new build must not exceed that value, which is true for many aspects of building.
This limit is 'measured' by way of a table, it gives usage factors which are then multiplied by the capacity or flow rate of the chosen part, which is the bit the builder fills in. These are then totalled up, reduced by any greywater or rainwater contributions and this gives a daily value.
If this exceeds 125, the fittings will need to be reviewed and altered most likely, such as smaller capacity toilets etc.
The point is, it is only applied to new buildings during construction and it is a theoretical limit to ensure water efficient parts are used. It is not a limit preventing people using more than 125 litres per day.
edit - they're not introducing anything into existing housing unless you're carrying out a complete conversion.
The final part of G3 is a new requirement intended to prevent scalding and requires that the hot water supply to any fixed bath in a newly formed dwelling must be designed and installed with measures to ensure that the temperature of the water that can be delivered to the bath cannot exceed 48oC. This final part of G3 applies when a dwelling is created through new-build or conversion.
Building standards incorporate a huge swathe of things, from structural integrity to insulation efficiency to water usage. It is far from just something to prevent your house falling down. They've included such measures for decades and in recent years (and coming) they are being modified to promote more efficient construction and buildings among other things.
yep retarded. But it'll just be a special mixer tap, so a quick change. But still retarded and not needed.
It won't be a 'quick change' because nothing needs to be changed.
... unless you want to avoid the 48C cap.
Don't have a problem with the 125l/d/p thing - it's a building reg and there's a tonne of those already - none of which affect me.
The 48C thing is, however, ridiculous. OK, so my shower is limited to 52C for similar reasons, but I could have got a different shower if I didn't like that. The fact that I don't like monkey baths is irrelevant - it's all about H&S gone mad (which is a change from the usual PC gone mad).
Blighter
09-08-2009, 00:27
I'm not allowed to sell a plastic spork to anyone under 16, but can sell metal tent pegs to a toddler.
FFS I typed out a huge reply and then knocked the back button and it all vanished.
In summary:
Hot water is stored at a minimum of 60C to prevent legionnaires, typically 65-70C.
Generally, for an adult, anywhere above 43C is uncomfortable. source (pdf) (http://www.rwc.co.uk/public/HWBLF%20-%20FactSheet.pdf)
48C can cause third degree burns with a 5 minute exposure. source (http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/5098.html)
60C can cause second/third degree burns with a 2 second exposure. source (http://www.accuratebuilding.com/images/services/charts/hot_water_burn_scalding_lrg.gif)
Is anyone seriously taking baths that put them close to third degree burns if they spend more than a few minutes in the bath?
Check the temperature of your bath next time you have one, i'd be surprised to see anything higher than 45C. Anyone bathing at 48C or higher must have skin made of leather or something.
It may sound silly to some people but ultimately it is unlikely to negatively affect anyone and may well prevent a lot of injuries and even deaths.
To be fair, has anyone actually read the regulations to see what the limits will be?
Or is everyone just angry and outraged over something that might turn out to be entirely sensible?
This, the temp coming out of a hot water tape now would burn a adult never mind a kid, I cant get into a bath with the hot water tap being on full flow. water is coming out at over 70+C, if housing want to lower the temp then you have no leg to stand on.
You need to get in touch with a plumber.
To be fair, has anyone actually read the regulations to see what the limits will be?
Or is everyone just angry and outraged over something that might turn out to be entirely sensible?
I don't think you quite understand where people are mostly coming from.
It's not so much the temperature aspect (though in part it is), it's the fact that this is H&S sticking their nose into something that really doesn't need regulated. I'll quite happily agree it's a sensible temperature limit, but it isn't actually necessary.
This isn't the first time and it's almost certainly not going to be the last time that they've stuck noses in and regulated stupid stuff. The more and more they restrict the more and more people are getting pissed off, and the more and more such basic principles as "common sense" just get thrown out the window. If I run a bath of hot water, common sense tells me to check the temperature first rather than just assuming it's right.
Do we really want to be encouraging people with the a level of instictive stupidity so low that they don't? Do we really want to allow them to breed?
This isn't an H&S case, but it's an example of the type of social stupidity they're encouraging: We got rid of sharp knives at the table and put round nosed ones there instead to reduce injuries to self and others.. and now have the rediculous situation whereby if I order a steak I have to have a seperate sharp knife delivered. It never used to be necessary, and it didn't actually achieve anything other than added inconvenience. If someone wants to attack someone with a knife, they'll just order steak, or probably more than half the time in 'high society' find the steak knives are already on the table anyway to go with their meal.
It gained nothing, probably saved no one, and just causes additional cleaning.
I don't think you quite understand where people are mostly coming from. I think most people misinterpreted what the regulations are and where they apply and got angry before they knew anything about it.
This isn't the first time and it's almost certainly not going to be the last time that they've stuck noses in and regulated stupid stuff. The more and more they restrict the more and more people are getting pissed off, and the more and more such basic principles as "common sense" just get thrown out the window. If I run a bath of hot water, common sense tells me to check the temperature first rather than just assuming it's right.
Some things are stupid, i'll agree. I don't think this is. What exactly is bad about preventing a bath being so hot it can scald within seconds?
Do we really want to be encouraging people with the a level of instictive stupidity so low that they don't? Do we really want to allow them to breed?Are you honestly saying that all in seriousness? I can just imagine you bringing that one up in a meeting about the new proposal.
'Anyone got anything further to add to this proposal?'
"Yes, I think we should scrap the temperature idea so stupid people scald themselves to death, we can't be having dumb people breed, right guys?"
'...'
"Right guys?"
'...'
This isn't an H&S case, but it's an example of the type of social stupidity they're encouraging: We got rid of sharp knives at the table and put round nosed ones there instead to reduce injuries to self and others..
I honestly don't think it's similar to that situation at all. It's just preventing a physically dangerous temperature of water filling your bath, similar to how hot water is stored at a minimum temperature to prevent legionnaires disease. Or perhaps we shouldn't regulate that either, after all, if someone is stupid enough to store their hot water lower than 60C they probably deserve to get legionnaires disease right?
What I think this is, is a case of people being too hasty to get angry at 'health and safety' when in reality the idea is perfectly sensible and will negatively impact hardly anyone.
I reckon had this not been publicised and someone bought a house with such a system installed, they wouldn't have even noticed. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if some people here already have such a system, the regulation has been in use in Scotland for almost 2 years already and i'd not be surprised if some builds just included them anyway.
Are there any reasons beyond 'I don't want to be told what i can do in my own house' or 'stupid people shouldn't breed' why this is a bad idea? I'm struggling to think of any.
How is that similar. Legionnaires is not something you can see/feel or control.
Temprature is. I know in winter I love a hot shower and My shower doesn't actually go that hot which is so so annoying and if it was or it being rented I would of sorted it out by know. What that actual temperature is I'm not sure. But unsurprisingly baths aren't just used for baths. Seeing as its basically a massive sink you can fit other stuff in there.
Are you honestly saying that all in seriousness? I can just imagine you bringing that one up in a meeting about the new proposal.
Actually, you missed an important point - one I only just realised myself.
H&S apply this reg to new builds only. So, dumb person rents a new build and fills their bath according to what H&S say they can have. Then they go somewhere without this 'safety net' and do the same. Oops!
How is that similar. Legionnaires is not something you can see/feel or control.
Temprature is. I know in winter I love a hot shower and My shower doesn't actually go that hot which is so so annoying and if it was or it being rented I would of sorted it out by know. What that actual temperature is I'm not sure. But unsurprisingly baths aren't just used for baths. Seeing as its basically a massive sink you can fit other stuff in there.
Stuff that needs to be immersed in 60C water but 48C, well that just won't do? I'm sure people will be facing that issue daily. If temperature is such an issue, you can always go and use the kitchen sink or even the bathroom sink if it's big enough, as these won't be limited. If it's too big to fit in a kitchen sink and absolutely needs water hotter than 48C i'd suggest it's not exactly a common household occurrence.
Actually, you missed an important point - one I only just realised myself.
H&S apply this reg to new builds only. So, dumb person rents a new build and fills their bath according to what H&S say they can have. Then they go somewhere without this 'safety net' and do the same. Oops!
Whilst true, the new safety net won't give you a temperature you can just jump in and feel fine. It can still scald you if you spend a few minutes in it, so it will still hurt and feel damn hot, it just no longer has the ability to scald you in seconds should something untoward happen.
In both situations, unless you have elephant skin or something, putting your hand in to test the water will result in you thinking 'ouch, that's pretty bloody hot'. However with the new regulation, should an accident occur and you slipped on a wet tile floor say and landed in the bath, it will not scald you in a matter of seconds, it would take minutes.
Stuff that needs to be immersed in 60C water but 48C, well that just won't do? I'm sure people will be facing that issue daily. If temperature is such an issue, you can always go and use the kitchen sink or even the bathroom sink if it's big enough, as these won't be limited. If it's too big to fit in a kitchen sink and absolutely needs water hotter than 48C i'd suggest it's not exactly a common household occurrence.
Does it mater that it's not an every day occurrence. It's my house, why should I be limited to some stupid H&S rule.
Can you actually name anything so big you would need to place it in a bath and that needs water hotter than 48C for whatever reason or is this an entirely imaginary situation to try and make a point?
So far the only reasons brought up as to why this is stupid are
I don't want people telling me what to do
We should let stupid people scald themselves
I want to put huge objects in my bath that need really hot water
So far i'm not being convinced there is any genuine issue with the regulation itself beyond people having a rant at something for the sake of it. H&S is getting mentioned a lot too, though i'm not sure where that came from, i've not seen anything saying they had anything to do with it.
making beer for a start. Hotter the better.
someone else puts shoes in the bath to soften. This is probably very common in teh forces I imagine.
I will see how hot my shower gets latter as that is far to cold.
I wouldn't mind it if you where allowed to change it, then have to restore it before selling the house. That would be fine.
Shoes/boots will fit in a kitchen sink, unless your sink is considerably smaller than all the ones i've seen.
Making beer in your bath is not an entirely common process, something very few people do and not very often. If very hot water is absolutely critical use the kettle to top it up a few times.
Pumpkinstew
09-08-2009, 11:42
I'm on divine's side of this argument.
Helps prevent injury from scalding water.
- reduced cost to NHS to treat injuries
- fewer work days lost to injury
Also improves energy efficiency of the home
I'm just about to have a bath anyway so I tried measuring it but I can only find a crappy digital 'health' thermometer which only reads up to 108f (42C) before just displaying a 'you're about to die' sort of warning.
Flibster
09-08-2009, 11:46
Shoes/boots will fit in a kitchen sink, unless your sink is considerably smaller than all the ones i've seen.
I can't stand in the sink though....
Why can't they soak in hot water without your feet in them? Surely all you're doing is trying to warm them, so once they're warm enough, take them out and put them on? Also how much difference to this process will it make if the water is 48C and not 60C?
I'm just about to have a bath anyway so I tried measuring it but I can only find a crappy digital 'health' thermometer which only reads up to 108f (42C) before just displaying a 'you're about to die' sort of warning.
I tried it anyway when it was at a decent temperature, not quite monkey bath hot but still pretty hot.
104F, which is 40C.
I dare say all you hot bath lovers will be more than fine with 8C of leeway above that.
Flibster
09-08-2009, 12:59
Why can't they soak in hot water without your feet in them? Surely all you're doing is trying to warm them, so once they're warm enough, take them out and put them on? Also how much difference to this process will it make if the water is 48C and not 60C?
Doesn't work.
You need your feet in them and very hot water to shape them. Even then it normally takes a couple of goes to get the fit right.
I would have thought most of the reshaping happened during the cooling/drying phase of wearing them as opposed to in the water. There are people online, having looked on google, who suggest filling the boot with hot water and then emptying/wearing, so I can't see it making much difference personally.
That said, surely you could find something else with which to do it? A deep tray, a storage box or something? Or is your bath the absolutely only item in your house you could stand in that also holds water?
So now the issues we have beyond 'dont tell me what to do' and 'let stupid people scald themselves' are making beer and breaking in boots. Hardly everyday activities for most people. Even people who do those things will do it a few times in a year at most surely?
I'm really not seeing enough of an issue to warrant such anger from everyone.
'Don't tell me what to do' is enough for me.
I'm really not seeing enough of an issue to warrant such anger from everyone.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said people were angry without actually knowing the real facts.
Mountain, molehill.
One thing that I haven't yet seem commented on is this.....
With a hot bath (hell lets just have it running at 48ºc). The temperature of the bath upon filling will not be 48ºc. Even with a plastic bath or worse with a cast bath you need to take away the amount of heat lost through heating the sides of the bath. Also then take away the heat loss of the water through it sitting in the bath before you get in. Mine takes ages to fill due to having a deep bath and a small tank.
This means by the time that you get in the bath will be comfortable but will lose temperature. Now lets assume that you want to top the bath up after 5-10 mins. Basic understanding will tell you that to raise the temperature with 48ºc going in will take a heck of a lot more water than a quick blast at full temp.
I have seen this already at the hotel I'm in and from personal experience of having a bath with this, it's rubbish. This is due to heat loss as described above.
\o/ for bath thermodynamics!
This really has nothing to do with temperature and everything to do with being told what to do and how to live your life. Not everybody needs and and not everybody wants it.
AboveTheSalt
10-08-2009, 10:14
There was a doris interviewed on the wireless a few days ago talking about the new building regulations for bathrooms.
Baths will have to come fitted so that it's not possible to run the water hotter than a certain temperature!I have had such a system on the past X shower mixers I have had any contact with for years; I can't see what the problem is with having them fitted to bath taps.
Some Dotty Mail readers will be outraged by any innovation, I expect that they would have been incensed when men started hanging animal hides in front of their caves to avoid freezing to death :rolleyes:
If people want a bath at 60c, let them. We can eat their cooked flesh later so there's no waste.
Wonder when this new reg comes into force then as the hot water that comes out of my hot water tap in my bath is very very very hot. Same with all the hot water taps in my house. The only one that is different is the tap in the en-suite shower, to make it hotter you have to push a button and turn the dial more.
October 1st.
It won't affect anyone unless they are building/buying a new house or converting an existing building - pretty much anything that would require you seeking permission.
It's not something getting retrofitted.
It's been in place in Scotland for 2 years.
As Divine has said above, it will only be for new proposals.
Ridiculous as it may sound to some, it's not the daftest stuff I've heard coming from the planning lot; the LPA's I work 'with' frequently attempt to knock out new PPG/legislative applications on important areas that they have no qualifications, training or professional consultation on.
It is both tiresome and difficult.
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