View Full Version : Boat Drinks Virtual Election
Matblack
05-05-2010, 18:02
Cast Your Vote
Psymonkee
05-05-2010, 18:08
Lack of choice for non of the above! :(
Otherwise......*closes eyes and clicks randomly*
THAT ONE!
Tories, best of a bad bunch.
I like some of the lib dem policies. Like the 10k tax free. But then The biggest two policies for me is energy security and keeping big companies in UK (as well as economy in a much wider sense)
Libdems will do neither of these things and mess the Uk up in the long run.
Creature
05-05-2010, 18:36
As 'I'm not voting' is up there, i'd like to change my answer to that if possible. I've not looked at any manifesto's for the parties, and as such, I have no idea what i'd be voting for.
Dymetrie
05-05-2010, 18:51
As 'I'm not voting' is up there, i'd like to change my answer to that if possible. I've not looked at any manifesto's for the parties, and as such, I have no idea what i'd be voting for.
Well you still have 12 hours left to check them out and make up your mind :)
Considering the reactions to the debates it could be quite interesting to see what happens with the vote tomorrow...
I've already sealed my postal vote for my dad to hand in on the day (I can't be at the polling station). Voted Lib Dem. Alton is currently Conservative but there's little between the two right now. Will be interesting to see what happens this time round.
It annoys me when people do these polls in the order Con Lab Lib, when the default vB poll colours are clearly suited to Lab Con Lib :p
I may not get chance to get to the voting station tomorrow but have a pretty good idea who I will choose if I do.
I'm hoping at the end of this we'll see some form of electoral reform, something a bit more Proportional Representation style, particularly if we get a "hung" parliament ("hung" isn't that bad, look at the many governments around the world that thrive on it, there are at least as many, if not more, as those that fail with it.)
Something is needed to help push away from tactical voting, and ensure that whoever is in power is whoever the population actually wants, rather than whoever happens to get just the right votes in the right places from tactical voting.
LeperousDust
05-05-2010, 19:25
Hmmmm i'd actually be really interested in a hung parliament between the torries and the lib dems, but as i can't actually vote for that, i'd probably vote for the lib dems in the hope that the torries where going to win it outright and this will make it more "even". Thats not a great way to vote though...
PR isn't enough. As you still have to vote tactically, even more so than know. We need total separation between local and National.
Briggykins
05-05-2010, 19:38
I'd like a Lib/Lab coalition. Can't see it happening though.
Blighter
05-05-2010, 19:42
I'm not voting as no policies really effect me - the only tax I pay is income tax, don't drive so nothing there, rent a room so no council tax/etc. They all seem pretty much the same anyway :p
volospian
05-05-2010, 19:45
Can't vote Clegg, I want the UK to retain her deterant and nuclear power...
PR isn't enough. As you still have to vote tactically, even more so than know. We need total separation between local and National.
Agreed... kinda. It's a tricky mess. If your local rep doesn't have a voice in parliament, how can they be effective?
Tough choice on who to run the country, so I stuck who I voted for for my local constituency. Cant stand Brown really, but have grown up with the ideals of labour; thats the labour of old mind you.
Conservatives have an interesting viewpoint on education... and as a teacher I'm not sure its in everyones best interests. Having said that, Labour have made it too easy to attend university and, in my opinion, devalued it somewhat. I overheard a conversation in the bank the other day, a kid opening a student account and the woman was asking what degree he was going to university to study for...
"photography and media promotion" or something.
Is that REALLY a degree? Its a diploma... surely...
Met some people the other week two, who were massaging their egos about getting a 2:1 in their university course (which is actually a college of arts, turned university status).
My modesty nearly exploded when I admitted to a 1st hons masters in Physics. Degrees are 2 a penny now.
Edit: Appologies if my views offended anyone, they are just that, my view.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 19:55
Can't vote Clegg, I want the UK to retain her deterant and nuclear power...
A lot of people seem to think that scrapping Trident is the same as giving up nuclear arms, the Labservatives might want you to think that but it isn't Lib Dem policy.
MB
Lib dems are claiming they will block all building applications for new nuclear power stations...
My friend is employed at Hinkley point nuclear power station, working in the reactor being decommisioned. They are applying to build a new station to replace the old. Although they agree with lib dem policies in other matters, if they voted for them, they'd be voting themselves out of the job quite literally.
The nuclear power thing is the one thing that I really take issue with the lib dem policy and they back it up with waffle about not being quick enough to help reduce emissions, which shouldn't be the point. Emissions are irrelevant, what we need is a solid dependable energy source for the future, something only nuclear energy will provide us and it needs to be invested in now.
Agreed... kinda. It's a tricky mess. If your local rep doesn't have a voice in parliament, how can they be effective?
I would like to think some system where the parties decide which MPs they take to parliament, those holding seats getting priority. You will have a few that don't hold local seats for the winners and a few who hold local seats that are in parliament for the losing parties.
But they have to be de-linked, what is good locally is not what is good nationally. Hopefully see more independents win locally that way that are actually interested in local events.
From the Lib Dem energy and climate policy:
"No to nuclear and dirty coal. The power stations we rely on are not only threatening the climate, many of them are coming to the end of their useful life. As we replace them, we have to move on from old technologies. We will not waste taxpayer subsidies on nuclear power. And we will block any plans for dirty coal power stations"
I'm intrigued to know what new technologies they mean. I have a sneaking suspicion they've secretly managed to get nuclear fusion working in a shed somewhere...
I'm intrigued to know what new technologies they mean. I have a sneaking suspicion they've secretly managed to get nuclear fusion working in a shed somewhere...
It says in there policies. Totally renewable. Which is not a solution at all. Yes we can use a fair % from renewable. but certainly not 100%
I guess that means we'll be buying power from France then! I wonder what they use.
Pumpkinstew
05-05-2010, 20:17
Lib dems are claiming they will block all building applications for new nuclear power stations...
My friend is employed at Hinkley point nuclear power station, working in the reactor being decommisioned. They are applying to build a new station to replace the old. Although they agree with lib dem policies in other matters, if they voted for them, they'd be voting themselves out of the job quite literally.
I'll be working supplying parts for the replacement Trident subs and I'm still voting Lib Dem.
Can't vote Clegg, I want the UK to retain her deterant and nuclear power...
I wish I had a spare £100,000,000,000 to build something I won't ever use.
The nuclear power position is a funny one though. We may have an abundance of wind and tidal power in this country but it will be a long time before we can tap with enough reliability to give up on fossil fuels or nuclear power. And that still doesn't address transport emissions.
I guess that means we'll be buying power from France then! I wonder what they use.
Either that or black outs. Certainly not energy security which is needed. especially as oil prices continue to increase. I also believe electric transport is the only sensible and viable solution that can be planned and built with current technology. That will increase electrical power needs by a few folds.
Their power policies is crazy, but most people are not worried about this and have not even thought about it. As it is above most peoples understanding. without a fair chunk of research. Compounded by the lead time in building. Most people will blame these blackouts on who ever is in power in 20-25 years, not on libdems.
I wish I had a spare £100,000,000,000 to build something I won't ever use.
It's used every day.
1) it is a detterent and as such works even with out launching.
2) are Un security seat is dependent on a nuclear arsenal.
3) it is only 2 billion a year which is little compared to a lot of government programs, of which most is ploughed back into the economy. (who was it who said milliatry spending was the least wasteful, as nearly all goes back into economy through contracts)
But that's not even the biggest reason not to vote lib dem.
Power security and large corporation security.
It's insane, it really is. Here in Denmark they have a stack load of wind turbines. Nice little investment for the farmers, and does chip in to the grid (nearly 25% I believe?). However, they use a tiny amount of power compared to us. Mainly because they are all drunk.
I'd happily get rid of Trident, and get a decent carrier. Something of use.
It says in there policies. Totally renewable. Which is not a solution at all. Yes we can use a fair % from renewable. but certainly not 100%
It's ridiculous really.
The largest nuclear station in the world has a capacity of over 8,000MW, coal, oil, gas are all around about 5,000MW.
Excluding hydroelectric dams (as we cant just whack a few of those up) the biggest 'renewable' energy power station in the world is a wind farm in the US.
Roscoe Wind Farm (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&q=Roscoe,+Nolan,+Texas,+United+States&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FQAW7wEdouYB-g&split=0&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=6.881357,14.941406&hq=&hnear=Roscoe,+Nolan,+Texas,+United+States&ll=32.480081,-100.638885&spn=0.103684,0.222988&t=h&z=13)
If you zoom in, you can see all those lines are rows of windmills. According to wiki it is 100,000 acres in size and what capacity is it? Just under 800MW.
Solar, Tidal, Wave... all generate a fraction of what Wind does. Geothermal manages to just about match it. Renewable energies like this are not a viable option for solving our future energy requirements.
The other problem with some renewable like wind. is it is not constant and is hard to predict. Can't meet power peaks and such like.
That'll be the least of peoples concerns when the entire country can barely power a few big cities at all :p
And not one person irl has agreed with me, they all laugh at me when I say power security is the biggest and most important challenge.
Nearly all have said they want the 10k increase and the tax increase to large corporations.
as they'll get more money in their pocket and large corporations are evil. Absolutely no understanding of long term affects
I think I might buy some shares in candles and matches...
And not one person irl has agreed with me, they all laugh at me when I say power security is the biggest and most important challenge.
Nearly all have said they want the 10k increase and the tax increase to large corporations.
as they'll get more money in their pocket and large corporations are evil. Absolutely no understanding of long term affects
Hey, what's the long term view compared to the short term boost to the pocket.
God bless our instant gratification, short sighted nature.
Hey, what's the long term view compared to the short term boost to the pocket.
God bless our instant gratification, short sighted nature.
and this is from everyone, from the low people up to the supposedly smart.
I wish our poll was accurate for the country on the whole :D
At least for now and assuming it doesn't suddenly swing a different way :p
I've taken fancy to the lib dems. I can't stand labour after what they've done over the past decade & being a graduate this year I'm hardly in a position to even consider tories!
However I still haven't recieved my polling card so need to sort that out first!
Briggykins
05-05-2010, 21:37
The Tories (and, to some extent, the Lib Dems) worry me on the economy. I look at George (or Gideon) Osborne and I think...do we really want to entrust our economy to that chap? A man with no real experience who was allegedly third choice for the post? (Behind William Hague and David Cameron, both of whom turned it down under Howard).
Vince Cable I have a lot of time for, he's really embiggened himself since the financial crisis and I think he's been criminally underused in the Lib Dem campaign (I know Clegg was trying to get out from under Cable's shadow, but since the debate I think he achieved that). Just not sure Clegg himself has the financial knowledge that'll be necessary after the election.
I know some people would say Brown got us into this mess, but personally I don't think he's put a foot wrong since everything went titsup (with the possible exception of the VAT decrease). I'm just not sure I trust anyone else with the economy, despite what other reservations I have about Labour's recent history.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:02
I'm not sure that Clegg has to have the financial know how since Vince would be Chancellor were the Lib Dems to win. Remember, despite the debates you are voting for a party/ Cabinet not a PM :)
MB
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:07
Wife's Dad is a nuclear physicist, has been involved with lots of different power stations and is still in the industry, guess what, he's delivering leaflets for the Lib Dems tonight! Policies change and my money says that they would back down on nuclear power but only after they have maximised on renew-ables and reduced wastage.
If you want to see what's happening in Greece but save on the airfare then vote Tory tomorrow ;)
MB
A lot of people seem to think that scrapping Trident is the same as giving up nuclear arms, the Labservatives might want you to think that but it isn't Lib Dem policy.
True. They want to scrap the delivery system, not the capability. Unfortunately the alternative - strapping a nuclear warhead atop a Cruise missile - isn't a particularly good alternative. Cruise has a range of less than 1/6th that of Trident, and can be overtaken by a jumbo jet - making it an easy target for a Patriot-type defence system, or a slightly less easy target for a fighter jet.
So it's still not a good choice then.
I wish I had a spare £100,000,000,000 to build something I won't ever use.
I really love that figure. It gives the impression that all the money will be spent on 7th May. Of course, it won't. Trident has been in service for 15 years, and will undoubtedly be in service for several more. So that's £5bn per year then - the Tories planned deficit reduction this year alone swallows that.
Still a heck of a lot of money that could be spent on health/education/whatever, granted.
And not one person irl has agreed with me, they all laugh at me when I say power security is the biggest and most important challenge.
They'll agree with you once the blackouts start or Gazprom decides the UK doesn't deserve any gas supply.
Nearly all have said they want the 10k increase and the tax increase to large corporations.
Hope they don't own any shares...
I think I might buy some shares in candles and matches...
Best not vote Lib Dem then. They shout from the rooftops about their £10k tax allowance (which, by the way, pensioners already get and those in most need won't benefit from). They say rather less about all but scrapping capital gains. Nice way to encourage share ownership among employees there Nick.
Agree about George Osborne though. We need to convince Vince Cable to switch sides. ;D
Conservative then - best of a bad bunch - which says a lot about the state of UK politics. :( Hung parliament may turn out to be the best worst option.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:19
I know some people would say Brown got us into this mess, but personally I don't think he's put a foot wrong since everything went titsup (with the possible exception of the VAT decrease). I'm just not sure I trust anyone else with the economy, despite what other reservations I have about Labour's recent history.
I have to say I agree with this, I think Labour handled the recent crisis as well as anyone could given the circumstances and Brown is getting a rough deal.
I prefer the politics of the Liberal Democrats, they very closely represent my personal views on social equality and a fair tax system. My family will almost certainly be financially worse off under a Lib Dem government but I know that we will all be better catered for by public services and live in a fairer society and that a appeals to me.
MB
I have to say I agree with this, I think Labour handled the recent crisis as well as anyone could given the circumstances and Brown is getting a rough deal.
I agree with this to a limited extent. I do think Gordon Brown (as Chancellor) did a lot to get us into this - both in setting up the (lack of) supervision for the banks, and raiding the coffers and selling off a load of our gold (at a knock-down price) when times were good.
Credit where its due on him taking the lead with the banks (and it's looking more likely UK will make a profit on that deal). As for the Government's coffers, well the jury is still out on that one - we may never know.
I have to say I agree with this, I think Labour handled the recent crisis as well as anyone could given the circumstances and Brown is getting a rough deal.
:confused:
They caused a lot of the problem and they didn't handle it well. Most of Europe was out of recession a full 6months+ before us.
How is any of that well handled.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:28
Trident
So we keep a sledgehammer nuclear solution which is only good for MAD over a solution which can be tactically delivered to destroy a target without causing the mass destruction of Trident.
As for Patriot, which of the following countries do we pervive as a threat; Taiwan, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Spain. They are the ones with Patriot systems.
You might as well bring all the Trident warheads back to the UK and store them under the Houses of Parliament and threaten to blow ourselves up if anyone attacks us, the effect would be exactly the same as using the multi billion pound delivery system and would save us a bob or too. Trident is white elephant of massive proportions in my book.
MB
Labour is more of a bad thing, Tories are likely to screw everything up again, Clegg would probably have a heart attack if he got in.
That said, I've normally voted Lib Dem in the past and figure as someone else said a Cons/Lib coalition of some sort might be a good thing. I imagine many people would disagree but I'm not an expert on politics so feel free :)
Also I don't believe all this stuff about parties saying they won't make deals. About as likely as Camerons promises to increase public spending while lowering the national debt.
I do love how Brown is suffering after enjoying the years on plenty while chancellor.
They caused a lot of the problem and they didn't handle it well. Most of Europe was out of recession a full 6months+ before us. How is any of that well handled.
That has a lot more to do with our Economy than it does anything the Government has done. We're a largely service economy these days (and like it or not, a lot of that is banking), whereas Germany, for example, has a lot larger manufacturing base (and thus wasn't so prone to the impacts of bank woes).
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:30
:confused:
They caused a lot of the problem and they didn't handle it well. Most of Europe was out of recession a full 6months+ before us.
How is any of that well handled.
6 months is nothing in the grand scheme of things, if the Tories had been in over the last two years we might as well be in Greece right now, at least it would be warmer.
MB
That has a lot more to do with our Economy than it does anything the Government has done. We're a largely service economy these days (and like it or not, a lot of that is banking), whereas Germany, for example, has a lot larger manufacturing base (and thus wasn't so prone to the impacts of bank woes).
Which is down to the government. Also spending record amounts at a time of boom, is ridiculous and set us up for the fall.
Best not vote Lib Dem then. They shout from the rooftops about their £10k tax allowance (which, by the way, pensioners already get and those in most need won't benefit from).
Why do you think they wouldn't benefit?
The 10k tax allowance would help a lot of people I suspect. Considering a minimum wage full time worker would roughly earn 12k a year before tax, only being taxed on 2k of that income would make a considerable difference to people already on low incomes.
I know most of the people I work with and various other acquaintances would be helped immensely by the extra they'd have if they weren't taxed for the first 10k.
Personally I'd be happy to just have the 10% tax bracket back as in my household it'd help us quite a bit. Then again I see no reason why people on such low incomes should be taxed as much as someone on a much higher income.
There need to be more divisions of tax brackets imo assuming people want a fairer society. The 10k tax allowance or return of the 10% tax bracket would help that.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:34
assuming people want a fairer society.
Why on earth would the majority want that? The majority would rather drive through the wreckage of society if they can do it in a nice car with an expensive CD player.
MB
Which is down to the government. Also spending record amounts at a time of boom, is ridiculous and set us up for the fall.
The very best thing to do during a recession is invest in infrastructure:
1) It's cheaper during recession than at other times
2) It creates a lot of jobs which in turn bolsters the economy
3) When the recession is finally over you've got new infrastructure in place that can be taken advantage of.
The very best thing to do during a recession is invest in infrastructure:
1) It's cheaper during recession than at other times
2) It creates a lot of jobs which in turn bolsters the economy
3) When the recession is finally over you've got new infrastructure in place that can be taken advantage of.
yep.
Why on earth would the majority want that? The majority would rather drive through the wreckage of society if they can do it in a nice car with an expensive CD player.
MB
That's why I said assuming :( Nearly threw in that it's a big assumption.
I'd much prefer fairer though and I like to think that viewpoint will remain no matter how rich I may or may not become in my lifetime!
The very best thing to do during a recession is invest in infrastructure:
1) It's cheaper during recession than at other times
2) It creates a lot of jobs which in turn bolsters the economy
3) When the recession is finally over you've got new infrastructure in place that can be taken advantage of.
Bingo!
The very best thing to do during a recession is invest in infrastructure:
1) It's cheaper during recession than at other times
2) It creates a lot of jobs which in turn bolsters the economy
3) When the recession is finally over you've got new infrastructure in place that can be taken advantage of.
yep.
But no Labour printed money which helps no one, doesn't go into anyones pocket and is a total waste.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:39
yep.
But no Labour printed money which helps no one, doesn't go into anyones pocket and is a total waste.
I am happy to be corrected on this but wasn't quantitative easing the decision of the BoE?
MB
LD for me, by a country mile.
Then Conv holding up the rear.
No others are worth listening to IMO.
So we keep a sledgehammer nuclear solution which is only good for MAD over a solution which can be tactically delivered to destroy a target without causing the mass destruction of Trident.
It's a fair point - any use of nuclear weapons would be a disaster - regardless of delivery system. However, it's arguable that we'd be better off with no nuclear option at all than we would with a Cruise-based system. I have no problem with people who take the view that the UK should be nuclear-free. Personally, I think the world should be nuclear-free, but Pandora won't be closing that box any time soon.
The biggest loss for a non-nuclear UK would of course be our seat on the Security Council.
Which is down to the government.
Several governments. It goes all the way back to Thatcher, and probably beyond. Being an island doesn't help either.
Also spending record amounts at a time of boom, is ridiculous and set us up for the fall.
No disagreement from me there.
Why do you think they wouldn't benefit?
Because anyone under the existing £6.5k-ish won't benefit (which covers everyone on JSA, for example). Pensioners will barely benefit. I hadn't done the numbers for full-time minimum wage, so thanks for putting me right on that one.
But what about those on £50k - they'll get £700/year too (IIRC it's about £100k before it starts to hurt). That's the real problem I have with it - a large number of those who most need it don't benefit, and a large number of those who don't need it will benefit.
IMO, if they're going to increase the lower limit, or bring back 10%, then adjusting the 40% limit to compensate would be a good idea - even though that is shooting myself in the foot.
Matblack
05-05-2010, 22:56
However, it's arguable that we'd be better off with no nuclear option at all than we would with a Cruise-based system.
I'm happy to listen
MB
Tory/Lib Dem coalition in a hung Parliament and voting reform.
I am happy to be corrected on this but wasn't quantitative easing the decision of the BoE?
It was their decision when, and how much - as a result of their monetary policy remit. I'm not sure who fired the starting gun on QE though - and it's pretty unlikely that was solely a BofE decision.
Because anyone under the existing £6.5k-ish won't benefit (which covers everyone on JSA, for example). Pensioners will barely benefit. I hadn't done the numbers for full-time minimum wage, so thanks for putting me right on that one.
But what about those on £50k - they'll get £700/year too (IIRC it's about £100k before it starts to hurt). That's the real problem I have with it - a large number of those who most need it don't benefit, and a large number of those who don't need it will benefit.
IMO, if they're going to increase the lower limit, or bring back 10%, then adjusting the 40% limit to compensate would be a good idea - even though that is shooting myself in the foot.
Fair point :) Although I'd happily take the 10k tax allowance/reinstatement of the 10% to start with ;)
Bloody hell MB has done a good job canvassing the forum
I think I will be voting for the apathy party ;)
IMO, if they're going to increase the lower limit, or bring back 10%, then adjusting the 40% limit to compensate would be a good idea - even though that is shooting myself in the foot.
but don't you think middle earners have been battered into submission over last few years ?
Matblack
05-05-2010, 23:49
but don't you think middle earners have been battered into submission over last few years ?
Have to say I agree, let the £100k+/pa feel some pain
MB
Pumpkinstew
05-05-2010, 23:51
On Trident:
It's used every day.
1) it is a detterent and as such works even with out launching.
2) are Un security seat is dependent on a nuclear arsenal.
3) it is only 2 billion a year which is little compared to a lot of government programs, of which most is ploughed back into the economy. (who was it who said milliatry spending was the least wasteful, as nearly all goes back into economy through contracts)
Who is it deterring exactly? N Korea? Iran? Pakistan? China?
All of the above would put Britain (and Western Europe in general) quite a long way down their list of potential targets.
And what if the worst were to happen? Can you conceive of a scenario where Britain would launch in isolation without unilateral agreement (or the US minimum) from other nuclear powers? In which case their arsenal can destroy the world several tiems over anyway.
We would remain a nuclear power without Trident and we won't ever lose our SC seat as long as we agree with everything the US says.
I would still spend the majority of the cash on defence. The MoD spends about 10% of what Intel does on R&D. It would ensure that the Future Carrier could be properly funded and also Future Surface Combatant (fast corvette size ships for drug and piracy operations), boost UAV development, deliver more mine protected vehicles and helicopters to the Afghan theatre and also increase our readiness to respond to a cyber attack - which is orders of magnitude more likely than a nuclear attack.
True. They want to scrap the delivery system, not the capability. Unfortunately the alternative - strapping a nuclear warhead atop a Cruise missile - isn't a particularly good alternative. Cruise has a range of less than 1/6th that of Trident, and can be overtaken by a jumbo jet - making it an easy target for a Patriot-type defence system, or a slightly less easy target for a fighter jet.
So it's still not a good choice then.
I really love that figure. It gives the impression that all the money will be spent on 7th May. Of course, it won't. Trident has been in service for 15 years, and will undoubtedly be in service for several more. So that's £5bn per year then - the Tories planned deficit reduction this year alone swallows that.
Still a heck of a lot of money that could be spent on health/education/whatever, granted.
I'm not sure why you think they'd be easier to shoot down than anything launched from a submarine.
Delivery vehicle might be difficult as the Future Carriers currently aren't designed to securely carry nuclear warheads. A new T45 variant would still be cheaper than new subs though.
The £100B cost is an estimate and like all defence projects will escalate rapidly as the life cycle progresses. No-one would be too surprised if it had doubled or even trebled by the time of decommissioning.The Americans have recently taken a long hard look at whether they can afford the mooted full Trident 2 system. If they scale back it puts our costs up as it's a joint programme of development.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/04/defense_submarine_042210/
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0410/36572.html
So we keep a sledgehammer nuclear solution which is only good for MAD over a solution which can be tactically delivered to destroy a target without causing the mass destruction of Trident.
As for Patriot, which of the following countries do we pervive as a threat; Taiwan, Egypt, Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Spain. They are the ones with Patriot systems.
You might as well bring all the Trident warheads back to the UK and store them under the Houses of Parliament and threaten to blow ourselves up if anyone attacks us, the effect would be exactly the same as using the multi billion pound delivery system and would save us a bob or too. Trident is white elephant of massive proportions in my book.
Agreed.
I'm no CND badge toting crusty by the way. I work in the defence industry and five years ago would have been opposed to not renewing Trident.
I'd welcome unilateral disarmament as well of course but just can't see it happening in my lifetime.
An interesting article contributed by a Gulf War Veteran
http://politics.caledonianmercury.com/2010/05/02/comment-theres-no-need-to-replace-our-blast-from-the-past/
but don't you think middle earners have been battered into submission over last few years ?
Damn straight, but the budget deficit risks battering the whole country into submission. Reducing 40% to compensate might only amount to a billion or three, but if it contributes to saving us from going cap in hand to the IMF then it's a price I'd pay. We've had a previous run-in with the IMF and it wasn't pretty. Greece has also found this out the hard way.
PS - Yes, I know this is utterly in conflict with my previous comments on Trident (and I'll admit my knowledge here is based on discussion elsewhere so may be entirely wrong - as Pumpkinstew seems to have discovered). C'est la vie. :)
Have to say I agree, let the £100k+/pa feel some pain
MB
Sure, I have no problem with the 50% tax over that but the extra NI being uncapped along with other stuff such as means testing EMA, student grants/loans and loads of other stuff has really been hitting folks in the £25-40k bracket
This isn't a selfish thing as other than the NI thing none of it affects me ( and I would live with it if the 50% tax band ever did ;) ) but I am sick of seeing handouts given left right and centre while it is the same folks paying over and over again
Here's the last UK run-in with the IMF. Knew it happened, but couldn't remember when. Turns out it was 1976...
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cabinetpapers/themes/imf-crisis.htm
PS - The proposed bail-out plan for Greece suggests they'll get €30bn this year - which just happens to be roughly £3.9bn in 1976 terms. Coincidence? Probably.
LeperousDust
06-05-2010, 01:16
Tory/Lib Dem coalition in a hung Parliament and voting reform.
:cool: Indeed
According to http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/05/final-uk-projection-conservatives-312.html , a US Statistician with a flair for politics, polling and prediction models (gets used by a number of sports organisations for their models)
Based on recent polls and data we should be looking at a hung government, presumably with LibDems going for a coalition with the Tories.
Bloody hell MB has done a good job canvassing the forum
I think I will be voting for the apathy party ;)
Yeah cos we're all vacuous sheep that just follow everyone else and don't have minds or opinions of our own ;)
Knipples
06-05-2010, 07:20
I'm voting lib dem because Labour have had long enough to sort things out, and haven't, and if the conservatives get in, I will be out of a job when the current contract on the project I work in ends.
Plus I can't stand the Conservative MP i'd be voting back in here, even though his seat is safe and I am sure he will get back in, at least I can say I tried.
According to http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/05/final-uk-projection-conservatives-312.html , a US Statistician with a flair for politics, polling and prediction models (gets used by a number of sports organisations for their models)
Based on recent polls and data we should be looking at a hung government, presumably with LibDems going for a coalition with the Tories.
If those numbers come to pass in reality, the Tories could avoid the Lib Dems altogether and form a coalition with a couple of 'minor' parties (DUP being a natural choice, for example).
Conservative gets my vote locally too - decent MP who is one of the few never to have flipped or claimed expenses on fripperies. Having said that, the local Lib Dem candidate isn't bad either.
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/portsmouth-north
In Portsmouth North, one person does not really have one vote, they have the equivalent of 0.919 votes
Not too bad - put in someone from Fareham and hers was 0.070
Matblack
06-05-2010, 08:49
My vote is worth practically nothing,
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/maidstone-the-weald
although for some God forsaken reason people seemed to like Widders, I think the attitude towards Helen Grant, who used to be a Labour MP will be less favorable, plus we have had a massive well organised push for the local Lib Dem who has become a bit of a local hero.
We shall see what comes to pass, I voted on my way to work this morning, looking forward to the coverage tonight :)
MB
I voted by post last weekend.
It'll be a bit difficult for me to watch much of the coverage as I'll be in Brussels tonight and, as per sodding usual, am having to make sure my colleagues get fed, watered and so on.
leowyatt
06-05-2010, 09:19
MB - your vote is worth more than ours, ours is only 0.018 :/
Stan_Lite
06-05-2010, 09:33
My vote, if I was home to use it, would be worth 0.115 of a vote. I dream of a day when the votes of every voter actually count. The system for the Scottish parliament may not be perfect but it's a damn sight better than the Westminster system.
Being on the rig, I'll miss the election coverage tonight too :( Pity, I usually enjoy sitting up to watch it
I dream of a day when the votes of every voter actually count.
"Morporkians are, however, in no doubt that Vetinari is firmly in charge of the city; the political system of Ankh-Morpork is described as "One Man, One Vote", in which Vetinari is the Man, and he has the Vote"
Briggykins
06-05-2010, 09:42
Devon Central is pretty good, we're worth 0.55. Tho it's saying something when half a vote is 'pretty good'. The more troubling thing is that it's a very strange constituency to be in - go half a mile north into Exeter or half a mile south along the coast and you're in a different constituency. We've got much more interest in Exeter and yet for some reason I'm lumped in the same constituency as most of Dartmoor.
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/romsey-southampton-north
0.981, LD vs Con.
I have teh powaaa
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/gower
0.182 here but never mind, I'll still be off to vote shortly :)
Will also be watching as much of the coverage as possible tonight. Did the same with the US election and managed to fall asleep 10 minutes before the result was declared :rolleyes: Hopefully I'll do better tonight ;)
Yeah cos we're all vacuous sheep that just follow everyone else and don't have minds or opinions of our own ;)
stroppy French **** ;D:p
stroppy French **** ;D:p
:lubu: :D
I have 0.116 voting power. \o/
However I've seen a few lib dem and conservative signs around so maybe some change may happen? I'll be out of my mind with joy if Tessa Jowell is kicked out. With Dulwich being a rather well to do area I'm surprised by her stronghold here - then again we have West Norwood which has a lot of council housing, and key worker, support worker people as well which no doubt favours the Labour.
Justsomebloke
06-05-2010, 11:32
Blimey. :shocked:
All Yellow over here & All Blue at the Blue place. I am so Shocked. :shocked:
NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!! ;D;D
Matblack
06-05-2010, 11:38
Blimey. :shocked:
All Yellow over here & All Blue at the Blue place. I am so Shocked. :shocked:
NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!! ;D;D
It's what happens when boys become men ;)
MB
Blimey. :shocked:
All Yellow over here & All Blue at the Blue place. I am so Shocked. :shocked:
NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!! ;D;D
That's not quite accurate, there's a high proportion of Lib Dem support on OcUK. :) 31% vs 42% - so still a rather demonstrable Lib Dem support. :)
Though I imagine that the remaining % is voting for "Mustard"? :p
managed to vote, registration was a success.
and in terms of the power of a vote around here, just below average :(
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/sheffield-central
LeperousDust
06-05-2010, 16:30
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/romsey-southampton-north
0.981, LD vs Con.
I have teh powaaa
Over 1 in Edinburgh South! 4x the average voting power apparently! There were only 405 votes difference between Labour and the Lib Dems here last time :)
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/sussex-mid
0.235 Voting POWAHHHHH!
Interestingly for my region: 52% of votes discarded
51.75% of those who voted in Sussex Mid in 2005 did not vote for the winning candidate. These votes count for nothing in the First Past the Post system.
There is a chance that the Soames could be out, slowly but surely lib dems have been eating into his margins (I voted for them every year, just happens my tactical vote matches my political position). Con: 48%, Lib Dem: 35%
0.348 votepower here, but that's better than in Wales where it was 0.195
Traditionally, we live in a Labour stronghold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_West_Leicestershire_%28UK_Parliament_constit uency%29) but as you can see this is slipping over the last few elections.
General bias in work (from those willing to discuss) seems to be Conservative. I work with some fairly dim people as well as some more normal types, and it's the dim ones that seem to be voting Lib Dem.... please note I am NOT saying you have to be dim to vote for Lib Dem, but I'm wondering if a lot of voters are opting for them as an easy/nice/doesn't require much thought option?
Our Labour MP was very popular with the locals, he died tragically of a heart attack at Christmas and his replacement seems none too popular in comparison. I wonder if that will affect the Labour majority here?
Our Labour MP was very popular with the locals, he died tragically of a heart attack at Christmas and his replacement seems none too popular in comparison. I wonder if that will affect the Labour majority here?
Labour doesn't bother putting a good candidate in my region. Just not worth the hassle. The ones we do get seem nice enough, if utterly bland and seemingly containing only a couple of brain cells to rub together. They did a candidates debate before the last general election and it seemed he could barely get the Labour candidate to say anything that wasn't exactly as it was written in the party pamphlet.
Our Labour MP was very popular with the locals,
Ours was a **** (Hoon)
http://www.voterpower.org.uk/newbury
Voted on the way to work. Going to be watching this one with interest. It's Con vs LD here. Both representatives have been an MP here, and both have had my vote in the past.
A Place of Light
06-05-2010, 20:15
Ideally I'd like a hung parliament with equal (or as close as possible to) equal shares of power with Mr. Cable running the financial side of things.
Peoples opinions on elections usually depend on what is the motivating factor behind their choice of vote. Do you vote for the party that you think will be most beneficial for you yourself, or do you vote for the option that you think will be best for the majority of the population?
Justsomebloke
06-05-2010, 20:24
That's not quite accurate, there's a high proportion of Lib Dem support on OcUK. :) 31% vs 42% - so still a rather demonstrable Lib Dem support. :)
It's Electorial retoric it doesn't have to be accurate. :p
;)
[Both representatives have been an MP here, and both have had my vote in the past.
Slut. :D
Justsomebloke
06-05-2010, 20:40
Slut. :D
Genuine Lols ;D
I saw the Fancy Dress Party on Rob's voting slip :D
I voted, but my marketing brain kind of went with the decision :/
BB x
Slut. :D
Deserter. :D
Hope you voted. One vote could make all the difference, so we'll know who to blame if you didn't. :p
Briggykins
06-05-2010, 20:44
Peoples opinions on elections usually depend on what is the motivating factor behind their choice of vote. Do you vote for the party that you think will be most beneficial for you yourself, or do you vote for the option that you think will be best for the majority of the population?
The majority generally, as I think whatever's best for the population will be best for me in the long run. Especially as I'm about as middle class normal as it's possible to be.
Deserter. :D
Hope you voted. One vote could make all the difference, so we'll know who to blame if you didn't. :p
Um, sort of. There is something in every policy that makes me incredibly angry, and I couldn't bring myself to vote knowing that I hate something I'm voting for. I hate the idea of voting for something/someone that annoys me slightly less than the rest, so my postal vote might not count, considering what I wrote.
Took flipping ages to get the postal vote stuff sorted too. Fecking Danish addresses....
0.357 http://www.voterpower.org.uk/inverness-nairn-badenoch-strathspey
Do hope my constituency keeps it's sense and stays with the incumbent!
Further to my post (clicking 'Save' does nothing when editing my post!):
It's not purely a personal thing. I genuinely believe we can do far better, and I'm not happy voting for something I disagree with on a country-wide scale.
I'm not sure what this makes me. A knob, I guess....
I'm actually really pissed off. My constituency has had its boundaries moved and I'm now lumped in with the borough that I moved out of because I was sick of its social and political problems. So it doesn't matter which way I vote because I'll be outvoted by the ambition-less losers, scroungers and racists that make up the SE London borough. You could say I've had to spite vote in the locals but either way my vote won't mean a damn :(
0.030! My partial vote! oh dear...
BB x
Cons ahead on exit poll. bum.
According to http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2010/05/final-uk-projection-conservatives-312.html , a US Statistician with a flair for politics, polling and prediction models (gets used by a number of sports organisations for their models)
Conservative prediction 312 vs exit poll 307. That's close. As for the Lib Dems - 45 seats out - and bemusement at the exit poll numbers. We'll see I guess.
I don't think any of the parties share my ideals in sustainable development, including the Green party. I wouldn't waste my vote on them anyway. As it goes I voted against Labour. I actually don't think they've done much wrong, from a sust dev perspective they've actually done pretty well and I think their economic policies have and will protect the country from an economic disaster that could have happened. They also have pretty good (as in sensible keen and realistic) green policies which will stand us well in the future.
However, I do think it's time for a change. It's been a long time and green ideals are inevitable because of world problems and recession or not, all the parties recognise that there's an impending world crisis economically, environmentally and (as a result) socially and we can't sustain that globally.
Exit polls suggesting Lib dems to lose seats, after the hype of the 1st debate things seem to have been going downhill steadily
The immigration amnesty was the turning point IMO, how did they think folks would support that ?
Flibster
06-05-2010, 22:46
Been going through some of the BBC info online - there is some comedy gold party names in there.
Some of my favourites.
Bus-Pass Elvis Party
Church Of The Militant Elvis Party
Citizens for Undead Rights and Equality (these guys were standing in my area - was soo tempting)
Death, Dungeons & Taxes
Fancy Dress Party
Fur Play Party (Sorry?! Furries in power? :D)
Imperial party (Darth Vader for PM?)
Motorcycle News Party
Miss GB (http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/TIVsIiyXmoF/Miss+Great+Britain+Election+Photocall)
National Alliance Against Trolls
Personality AND Rational Thinking? Yes! Party
Rock 'n' Roll Loony Party
Telepathic Partnership
Ooooh, fancy touch screen on the bbc and a big VR swingometer... Poor old Peter Snow - out on his arse. :(
Exit polls suggesting Lib dems to lose seats, after the hype of the 1st debate things seem to have been going downhill steadily
The immigration amnesty was the turning point IMO, how did they think folks would support that ?
Bear in mind that exit polls are notoriously inaccurate (to the point of being next to useless other than being talking fodder for television presenters desperate to find something interesting to say), and also don't count any postal votes in their count.
That the exit poll doesn't reflect any other poll done leading up to the election is interesting.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2010/05/hung_parliament_argument.html
Unsurprisingly the wooing has started of the Lib Dems.
When a friend of mine went to vote, he came across this:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4347/clownr.jpg
REports of voters being refused a chance to vote because their queue was too long and the poll officers shut the doors at 10pm are interesting. IMO if you turned up in time you should be allowed to vote. That the rule was applied inconsistently is worse. If any of those candidates lose by a small amount it's going to result in a lot of fuss.
What an ugly voting mess. At least some officers had the right idea - anyone in the queue at 10PM gets to vote. The rest - tough luck.
These early predictions pee me off. My facebook status says it all!!
Statistically, on 3 results, yes there is a big conservative swing, but by equal statistical analysis, we are looking at a 100% female labour government... I think we need more results before we make assumptions on the final result please media men.
Flibster
06-05-2010, 23:51
BREAKING STORY: voters turned away at ranmoor polling station are refusing to let the ballot box out of the building. Police there.
Also the swing being reported by the BBC etc is all based off estimated voting in 2005 based on if the new boundaries were in effect then as well. As the 3 seats so far have been redrawn since 2005 so results can be taken with a large pinch of salt.
100% female Labour government. I could handle that :D
Put on a bit of Barry White, dress up like King. Get your own way, mbebeh ;)
Never mind the election. We have a new monarch...
Queen Heineken ;D
Courtesy BBC and Twitter
My votes are in. Newbury still conservative. Richard Benyon still here to save our trains then. Fairly big swing away from Lib Dems too (8% or thereabouts). Happy with that (on a local level).
Richard Benyon Conservative 33,057 56.4 +7.4
David Rendel Liberal Democrat 20,809 35.5 -7.1
Hannah Cooper Labour 2,505 4.3 -1.7
David Black UK Independence Party 1,475 2.5 +0.9
Adrian Hollister Green 490 0.8 +0.8
Brian Burgess Independent 158 0.3 +0.3
David Yates Apolitical Democrats 95 0.2 +0.2
LOL @ Brian Burgess. He had no policies whatsoever. Lost deposit there then.
Turnout down 2%. Knew I'd be able to blame Goose for something. :p
Sheffield council stopped a few thousand students from voting. democracy epic fail!
I do wonder how many challenges there are going to be across the nation. Some returning officers clearly broke the rules.
Irrespective of students, it seems that Cleggmania may have fallen on its arse (and that's even on a PR basis). Heading towards 20% of the results in and so far the Lib Dems have lost a seat. Conservatives aren't gaining all the seats they need either.
Sheffield council stopped a few thousand students from voting. democracy epic fail!
I'd agree.
To be fair though, it's been reported that a large number of students shot themselves in the foot somewhat by not bringing their voter registration card with them, resulting in a large amount of work to confirm identity before they were allowed to vote. That combined with unexpectedly high turnout caused the problems. That said, turning people away who turned up before 10pm to vote is not acceptable.
I didn't even receive a voting card!
I'd say we were all in the same vote. Hardly our fault, thankfully i got to vote though.
Soames lives to tell the tale. A 0.3% swing towards Conservative party in our area.
Portsmouth North have gone from labour to conservative (8.6%).
Portsmouth South stayed libdem
My area hasn't got a result yet.
I'm surprised at the results so far - was expecting more LD support.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 07:07
Cons hold Maidstone with a big shift toward the LDs
The lack of LD seats is not a suprise as far as I am concerned they have had a big increase in votes in some places but the FPtP system stuffs them, it's another reason to continue the fight for PR.
The LDs will have a hand in the new government and that will increase their profile for the next election which is fine by me
baby steps
MB
Knipples
07-05-2010, 07:13
My vote wasn't able to stop Liam Fox retaining his nice comfy safe seat, although I cant remember it being this narrow for ages. He usually wins by a landslide, this time it was less than 7,000 votes, and the Lib Dem bloke I voted for was second.
Just watching the local news, and most of the area (south west) now is conservative.
Conservatives take my constituency with a whopping 12% Lab->Con swing.
Andrew Bridgen Conservative 23,147 44.6 +8.6
Ross Willmott Labour 15,636 30.1 -15.4
Paul Reynolds Liberal Democrat 8,639 16.6 +4.6
Ian Meller British National Party 3,396 6.5 +3.4
Martin Green UK Independence Party 1,134 2.2 -1.1
Majority 7,511 14.5 %
Turnout 51,952 72.9 % +6.1%
Good turnout as well!
Historical results here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_West_Leicestershire_%28UK_Parliament_constit uency%29)
Cons hold Maidstone with a big shift toward the LDs
The lack of LD seats is not a suprise as far as I am concerned they have had a big increase in votes in some places but the FPtP system stuffs them, it's another reason to continue the fight for PR.
The LDs will have a hand in the new government and that will increase their profile for the next election which is fine by me
baby steps
MB
Good point.
Conservative 282 88 2 +86 9,717,981 36.5 +3.9
Labour 227 2 81 -79 7,628,286 28.6 -6.5
Liberal Democrat 48 5 12 -7 6,076,836 22.8 +1.0
The votes aren't too far apart with labour - just a shame so many idiots still vote for labour.
Tessa ****ing Jowell is still our MP by 10,000 votes over LD. YOU ****ING IDIOTS. I'm going to burn all the council estates down, and shoot poor people.*
* - obviously I'm kidding
Still not counted Lewisham West and Penge. ****ing lazy bunch of wasters. I'm really annoyed at being part of this borough :(
Oh my, what a mess to wake up to (meant to stay awake, but failed). This is going to take some sorting.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 08:38
The lack of LD seats is not a suprise as far as I am concerned they have had a big increase in votes in some places but the FPtP system stuffs them, it's another reason to continue the fight for PR.
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
From results so far, looks like LD will have about 23% of total votes cast and only about 8% of the seats in the commons. How anyone can call that democracy is beyond me.
The LDs will have a hand in the new government and that will increase their profile for the next election which is fine by me
MB
I wouldn't bank on that Matt.
According to my calculations, the Tories may be able to do it without the LDs. The DUP will almost certainly throw their hat in with the tories, giving them another 8 votes. The SNP and Plaid Cymru have both stated they will not be part of any coalition so they can be seen as neutral. Sinn Fein can't vote because they refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen so their votes can be discounted. Not sure how the other minorities will go but if we assume they are also neutral, my calculations are as follows:
If we discount the neutrals and Sinn Fein, we are left with 634 seats which would mean a coalition would need 317 seats to have a chance of succeeding. If we assume the DUP will go with the Tories, this would leave them needing only 309 seats to claim a virtual majority. This means they only need to win 22 out the remaining 45. Sadly, I think this is entirely possible given how things have gone so far. If the Tories can possibly do without the LDs, they will avoid them in case they're forced to make concessions they're uncomfortable with (e.g. PR taking away their unfair advantage in an election).
Obviously, the above is speculation on my part and is me playing Devil's advocate. I would dearly love for the LDs to have a say in the new parliament and, at the very least, force a referendum on some system of PR.
I sincerely hope my prediction above proves to be wrong. I remember only too well what it was like, both as a student and a low paid member of the working class, under the last Tory government and I would hate for others to have to experience that.
Still no result here. Why don't they pull their lazy unemployed ambitionless thumbs out their arses, get out of bed for once, stop stabbing teenagers in chicken shops and count some ****ing ballot papers :angry:
What are you trying to say Jonny?? Lol!
Bah, they all voted Labour again, bunch of uneducated scrounging lowlifes, so there will be no changes made in these areas:
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5917/areaud.jpg
Really bad news for my area now the boundaries have changed. Roll on the crime wave, teenage stabbings, oh wait there was one just yesterday :rolleyes:, graffiti etc etc.
I share the same sentiments Jonny. :(
Matblack
07-05-2010, 10:58
Well it's hung and it looks like it could take a while to unhang it, not ideal given the global situation going down the toilet, somone could do with a strong mandate. Just goes to show that the country doesn't trust the Tories enough despite the perceived mess that we are being told Labour have made.
MB
George Galloway is gone. That's one good result from all this.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 11:18
The way things are going, it looks like there will need to be some serious concessions made if one of the "big two" want to eke out a majority. The possible permutations are mind boggling and I would hate to speculate on who will do what. I would think the LDs are slightly more likely to side with Labour than the Tories (although this is in no way a foregone conclusion). If they did, that would make things unbelievably close and any one of the smaller parties could tip the balance in return for a few titbits.
I doubt very much if the LDs will refuse to form a coalition with either one of them - that would force another election which would be political suicide for them - as well as being bad for the country at this time.
This could get very interesting over the next few days :)
Matblack
07-05-2010, 11:24
The way things are going, it looks like there will need to be some serious concessions made if one of the "big two" want to eke out a majority. The possible permutations are mind boggling and I would hate to speculate on who will do what. I would think the LDs are slightly more likely to side with Labour than the Tories (although this is in no way a foregone conclusion). If they did, that would make things unbelievably close and any one of the smaller parties could tip the balance in return for a few titbits.
I doubt very much if the LDs will refuse to form a coalition with either one of them - that would force another election which would be political suicide for them - as well as being bad for the country at this time.
This could get very interesting over the next few days :)
This is being played very well by the LDs I think.
Clegg has come out to say that he feels the Cons should get first shot but not that he will form an alliance. If Cameron wavers then that leave Clegg free to go to Brown and offer a deal. he'll probably offer a similar deal to Cameron but I just can't see a Lib/ Con coilition working, they are just too far apart on social priorities (helping real people vs lining pockets) and the Cons will never roll over on electoral reform. So you are right, this is going to be either very interesting (or exceptionally boring)
MB
this is going to be either very interesting (or exceptionally boring)
Probably this.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 11:31
To add to the above, my personal preference, under the circumstances, would be a LibLab coalition. I think Labour have made a lot of mistakes but they've also got a fair bit right. Hopefully with the LD influence, they might do better between the two of them. Also, a coalition between these two would almost certainly result in a referendum on PR - regardless of whether Labour wanted it or not. At least then, the people would be able to decide for themselves what was fair.
TBH, I'd rather see any combination (within reason) rather than allow the Tories any form of power. I may not particularly like NuLabour but I detest the Tories with a passion and wouldn't trust them with a market stall, never mind the country.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 11:38
So you are right, this is going to be either very interesting (or exceptionally boring)
MB
this is going to be either very interesting (or exceptionally boring)
MBProbably this.
I think it's going to be fascinating. I just wish I was home to see it all unfold instead of being stuck on the rig with a poor interweb connection, only getting snippets from the completely impartial BBC now and then.
I'm not convinced there will be a coalition at all. Lib/Con is unlikely, and a justification by Nick Clegg of going Lib/Lab after his comments about David Cameron could be interesting viewing.
There doesn't need to be a coalition. Gordon Brown can go it alone if he wants - until he gets kicked out when the Queens Speech debate falls. David Cameron could then do the same - and hope enough others abstain.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 11:43
To add to the above, my personal preference, under the circumstances, would be a LibLab coalition. I think Labour have made a lot of mistakes but they've also got a fair bit right. Hopefully with the LD influence, they might do better between the two of them. Also, a coalition between these two would almost certainly result in a referendum on PR - regardless of whether Labour wanted it or not. At least then, the people would be able to decide for themselves what was fair.
TBH, I'd rather see any combination (within reason) rather than allow the Tories any form of power. I may not particularly like NuLabour but I detest the Tories with a passion and wouldn't trust them with a market stall, never mind the country.
I'm with you, although I think there maybe a backlash on the LDs for forming a coalition with a party with no mandate and I'd hate to see the good work undone. I think Clegg is doing the right thing, offer Cameron the rope to hang himself, if he ploughs ahead with a minimal majority made of odds and sods then the LDs could come out of this smelling of roses when they work constructively beside them without being in coalition. Let's face it no one is going to come out looking that good with the global economy in its current state.
MB
Matblack
07-05-2010, 11:44
I'm not convinced there will be a coalition at all. Lib/Con is unlikely, and a justification by Nick Clegg of going Lib/Lab after his comments about David Cameron could be interesting viewing.
There doesn't need to be a coalition. Gordon Brown can go it alone if he wants - until he gets kicked out when the Queens Speech debate falls. David Cameron could then do the same - and hope enough others abstain.
That would turn the current electorial system a farce make a better case for PR, but it won't happen.
MB
I'm not convinced there will be a coalition at all. Lib/Con is unlikely, and a justification by Nick Clegg of going Lib/Lab after his comments about David Cameron could be interesting viewing.
Well he doesn't really need any justification, all he's said is Cameron should get first shot at trying, if he fails he hasn't said anything that would preclude Lib Dem joining Labour.
Take into account some of the small parties who are effectively 'sister parties' to LD and L and LD/L are very close to a majority when you take Sinn Fein etc. out of the equation.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 11:47
Well he doesn't really need any justification, all he's said is Cameron should get first shot at trying, if he fails he hasn't said anything that would preclude Lib Dem joining Labour.
Clever huh?
MB
Sounds like a Con/LD deal over PR is a non-starter then.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 12:13
There doesn't need to be a coalition. Gordon Brown can go it alone if he wants - until he gets kicked out when the Queens Speech debate falls. David Cameron could then do the same - and hope enough others abstain.
Never happen.
Gordon wouldn't bother as he's on to a loser from the start. "Dave" wouldn't risk it as everyone except the DUP would vote against him and it'd be back to the polls. It has to be either LibLab or Cons + others in my opinion.
I'm with you, although I think there maybe a backlash on the LDs for forming a coalition with a party with no mandate and I'd hate to see the good work undone. I think Clegg is doing the right thing, offer Cameron the rope to hang himself, if he ploughs ahead with a minimal majority made of odds and sods then the LDs could come out of this smelling of roses when they work constructively beside them without being in coalition. Let's face it no one is going to come out looking that good with the global economy in its current state.
MB
Not sure how much of a backlash there would be. I would think most LD voters would rather Nick Clegg aligned himself with a Labour party without a mandate than with a Tory party with one - I know I would.
Staying on the outside waiting to pick bits off the tories would be a safer option but it would be difficult to wring concessions out of any party without offering some sort of inducement.
I remember only too well what it was like, both as a student and a low paid member of the working class, under the last Tory government and I would hate for others to have to experience that.
This. In droves.
Justsomebloke
07-05-2010, 12:25
I think Gordon will Offer Electorial reform to Clegg to win him over & then carry on as is.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 12:46
I think Gordon will Offer Electorial reform to Clegg to win him over & then carry on as is.
I don't think he'll be allowed to carry on as is. Gordon doesn't stand a chance without the LibDems, meaning Nick Clegg has a golden opportunity to make a difference. In my opinion, he needs to grab Gordon by the stones, squeeze hard and tell him "We'll help you out but here's what it's going to cost you ........"
I think the LDs and Labour in coalition has the potential to be what the Labour party should be - a party for the people with a social conscience.
Pumpkinstew
07-05-2010, 13:38
The boundary changes meant our Lib Dem MP was beaten by the conversatives by 176 votes!
I hope Clegg doesn't rush into a decision. No doubt he's got Mandy whispering in one ear and Cameron schmoozing in the other. Brown is gone no matter what happens.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 14:05
Just had an e-mail from Oddbins.
Hung Parliament? - No problem. Great deals from Oddbins Gotta love their opportunism :D
Edit: It wasn't unsolicited btw. I signed up for their newsletter when in buying whisky once.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 14:10
Sith Lord Madleson pretty much offered up Gordon on a plate this morning if there was any chance that he could get the LDs on side.
Here is my list of demands
A referendum on PR
Gordon out
Let Vinnie handle the cash
In exchange we'll support you on the economy, or more accurately you'll support Vinnie, we'll back off the Euro (we were only joking anyway), we'll tone down the Trident thing but we still want real debate on it and we'll back you on nuclear power.
And we want Cameron deported.
Sounds workable :)
MB
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 14:16
Sith Lord Madleson pretty much offered up Gordon on a plate this morning if there was any chance that he could get the LDs on side.
Here is my list of demands
A referendum on PR
Gordon out
Let Vinnie handle the cash
In exchange we'll support you on the economy, or more accurately you'll support Vinnie, we'll back off the Euro (we were only joking anyway), we'll tone down the Trident thing but we still want real debate on it and we'll back you on nuclear power.
And we want Cameron deported.
Sounds workable :)
MB
I never knew until this election how closely we agree politically - those proposals would suit me down to the ground :)
Matblack
07-05-2010, 14:23
I never knew until this election how closely we agree politically - those proposals would suit me down to the ground :)
:)
I see Limpdik Oprick lost his seat; thats one Lib Dem I'm happy to see the back of
MB
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 14:27
A bit of a weird one, old Lembit.
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 14:33
Sith Lord Madleson pretty much offered up Gordon on a plate this morning if there was any chance that he could get the LDs on side.
Here is my list of demands
A referendum on PR
Gordon out
Let Vinnie handle the cash
In exchange we'll support you on the economy, or more accurately you'll support Vinnie, we'll back off the Euro (we were only joking anyway), we'll tone down the Trident thing but we still want real debate on it and we'll back you on nuclear power.
And we want Cameron deported.
Sounds workable :)
MB
Sounds like a viable solution to me.
Only problem is that even a Lib/Lab alliance wouldn't hold a majority...
Cameron's on in a minute to talk some tosh, wonder if he'll offer Clegg a coalition...
My dad knows Limpet. Doesn't like him much though.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 14:34
A bit of a weird one, old Lembit.
The whole attention seeking Cheeky Girl saga thing really put me off him
MB
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 14:35
My dad knows Limpet. Doesn't like him much though.
Is that because he was engaged to a cheeky girl? Or because he's a ****? :p
Matblack
07-05-2010, 14:42
BREAKING NEWS
There will be a new, modern Conservative Party in Parliament, David Cameron says. The increase in seats is bigger than Margaret Thatcher achieved in 1979, he adds. But the party "must accept" it has failed to win a majority.
Thats because you lost a bucket load of seats when everyone worked out you were evil and they are only just begining to forget about it, it doesn't make you great, it just makes the country forgetful!
MB
Sith Lord Madleson pretty much offered up Gordon on a plate this morning if there was any chance that he could get the LDs on side.
Here is my list of demands
A referendum on PR
Gordon out
Let Vinnie handle the cash
In exchange we'll support you on the economy, or more accurately you'll support Vinnie, we'll back off the Euro (we were only joking anyway), we'll tone down the Trident thing but we still want real debate on it and we'll back you on nuclear power.
And we want Cameron deported.
Sounds workable :)
MB
Surprisingly given my vote, I'd go with almost all of that*. I'm very much a floating voter - or deserter - though.
* Emperor Mandelson - but maybe you're right - if we make it Emperor Gordon, then Sith Lord Mandelson can dispatch him Darth Vader style.
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 14:43
BREAKING NEWS David Cameron urges the Lib Dems to work with him. This could mean a minority Conservative government or a "stronger, more collaborative" option.
I think they've probably been in talks since the exit polls last night...
*sigh*
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 14:45
David Cameron says the Tories and Lib Dems can discuss electoral reform, with an all-party committee of inquiry set up to discuss the issue.
And there's the carrot....
Thats because you lost a bucket load of seats when everyone worked out you were evil and they are only just begining to forget about it, it doesn't make you great, it just makes the country forgetful!
MB
Not to mention that there are more constituencies now than there were then - pretty easy to get more seats if there are more on offer.
And there's the carrot....
Gordon offered a bigger carrot - a referendum. They've had plenty of talking shops on PR before. In both cases that leaves the option open for the main parties to campaign against.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 14:48
And there's the carrot....
Not enough tbqfh
MB
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 14:49
I didn't say it was a very good carrot :p
You didn't say the Lib Dems were rabbits either. :p
Matblack
07-05-2010, 14:55
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1169/65487442.jpg
Ahhhhhh, the British electoral system.
If a vote was actually worth a vote then the Lib Dems would be in the running, if the Lib Dems were in the running, all the people who want to vote Lib Dem but won't because they 'can't win' might vote Lib Dem in which case the country would be a very different place.
MB
Sith Lord Madleson pretty much offered up Gordon on a plate this morning if there was any chance that he could get the LDs on side.
Here is my list of demands
A referendum on PR
Gordon out
Let Vinnie handle the cash
In exchange we'll support you on the economy, or more accurately you'll support Vinnie, we'll back off the Euro (we were only joking anyway), we'll tone down the Trident thing but we still want real debate on it and we'll back you on nuclear power.
And we want Cameron deported.
Sounds workable :)
MB
Yes please!
Have to say I really don't agree with all this 'if only...' talk. It smells of sour grapes, tbh. The system is certainly flawed - but we've got what we've got and have to deal with it.
Ironically, this situation is a good test of whether PR would work here. If we can't make this parliament work, then perhaps we don't want a system that would inevitably lead to more of them.
Matblack
07-05-2010, 15:06
Have to say I really don't agree with all this 'if only...' talk. It smells of sour grapes, tbh. The system is certainly flawed - but we've got what we've got and have to deal with it.
Ironically, this situation is a good test of whether PR would work here. If we can't make this parliament work, then perhaps we don't want a system that would inevitably lead to more of them.
So it's OK that a party who get 6.1% more of the vote get 5x as many seats? That's not sour grapes, it's common sense, its also an issue which member of all three parties main are raising.
I wasn't expecting the LDs to win, if you think I'm upset because they haven't then you are sorely mistaken.
MB
Chuckles
07-05-2010, 15:13
I'm upset because they might do a deal with the Tories.
Don't do it Nick! I'm going back to Labour first the first time since 1997 if they do. It would be a complete sacrifice on principles.
Pumpkinstew
07-05-2010, 15:15
And there's the carrot....
... but on the other hand you can forget about immigration amnesties, closer ties with Europe or trying to knock Trident on the head.
So there's the decision Clegg has to make.
- Assist a beaten government to limp on for another 5 years with a few other minority parties and piss off a big chunk of the electorate,
- sell their souls for a slice of the Tory 'Big Society' pie and hope not too much of the slime gets stuck to the party in the process
- or leave the UK with a minority government, vote only with the Tory policies they can swallow and be accused of hamstringing parliament at a time when decisive action was required on a number of issues
Don't envy him at all. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
So it's OK that a party who get 6.1% more of the vote get 5x as many seats? That's not sour grapes, it's common sense, its also an issue which member of all three parties main are raising.
I wasn't expecting the LDs to win, if you think I'm upset because they haven't then you are sorely mistaken.
MB
Didn't say it was either right or wrong - it is what it is. I also don't think anyone was expecting the LDs to win - which is a problem in itself.
I do however think that this issue has been raised after every election since I don't know when. I'd wager that even if we did have a PR-based system, someone would feel hard done by and complain.
None of this is to say we shouldn't debate the electoral system as a whole. It's clearly broken - and in more ways than just the FPtP system.
Stan_Lite
07-05-2010, 15:24
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/1169/65487442.jpg
Ahhhhhh, the British electoral system.
If a vote was actually worth a vote then the Lib Dems would be in the running, if the Lib Dems were in the running, all the people who want to vote Lib Dem but won't because they 'can't win' might vote Lib Dem in which case the country would be a very different place.
MB
Again, you pluck the thoughts out of my head. I was going to post exactly the same earlier. If 23% of the electorate voted for them knowing they couldn't form a government, I wonder how many more would vote for them if they thought they could???
I don't see where sour grapes comes into it Mark. A system which actively encourages tactical voting instead of voting for the party of preference is deeply flawed and needs to be changed. I don't see why we should "have to deal with it", we shouldn't have to deal with it at all, we should take the opportunity to change it for a fairer system that represents the will of the people.
We have to deal with it today - I'm only concerned with today at the moment. What happens next time is - for the moment at least - a matter for the politicians and their behind-closed-doors discussions.
It just bothers me that this debate seems to happen on every election results day and spends most of the rest of the time in the wilderness. If it's so broken, why does it take an election for everyone to demand it gets changed? Will everyone still be making that demand in a month?
Von Smallhausen
07-05-2010, 15:51
Jaqui Smith out !
http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/VonSmallhausen/craxu.gifhttp://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/VonSmallhausen/craxu.gifhttp://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/VonSmallhausen/craxu.gifhttp://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad166/VonSmallhausen/craxu.gif
More valium please .......
I had a feeling you might appreciate that. ;D
Del Lardo
07-05-2010, 16:08
Again, you pluck the thoughts out of my head. I was going to post exactly the same earlier. If 23% of the electorate voted for them knowing they couldn't form a government, I wonder how many more would vote for them if they thought they could???
and by the same argument how many Conservative/Labour supporters didn't bother to vote because they didn't perceive Lib Dems to be a threat?
Del Lardo
07-05-2010, 16:12
Jaqui Smith out !
More valium please .......
There was a nice shot of her choking up following the announcement that she had lost her seat. Made my day, corrupt, incapable bitch troll.
No doubt she'll cheer herself up by popping round to her sisters house to watch a porno ;D
Matblack
07-05-2010, 16:19
We have to deal with it today - I'm only concerned with today at the moment. What happens next time is - for the moment at least - a matter for the politicians and their behind-closed-doors discussions.
It just bothers me that this debate seems to happen on every election results day and spends most of the rest of the time in the wilderness. If it's so broken, why does it take an election for everyone to demand it gets changed? Will everyone still be making that demand in a month?
Errrr
Because the party who just won, just won under the current system? What incentive do a ruling majority have to change a system which just got them elected?
Am I being thick here?
MB
We should have a 3-way voting system like the French used to do it, loaded in favour of the rich. Then the poor always get outvoted and don't have a say.
Revolt? Kill them all.
Errrr
Because the party who just won, just won under the current system? What incentive do a ruling majority have to change a system which just got them elected?
Am I being thick here?
MB
I think you're missing that the ruling party does not have the majority. They're dependent on Lib Dems to get anything done. The Tories now have to go cap in hand to get all sorts of stuff done essential to the formation of the government. That gives the Lib Dems and other parties enough power to balk the Tories at any stage if they should choose. If Clegg doesn't insist on election reform as one of the requirements for a coalition he'd be an idiot.
Del Lardo
07-05-2010, 16:58
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/8667938.stm
David Cameron has reached out to the Liberal Democrats in an effort to form a government - after the UK general election resulted in a hung parliament.
The Tory leader, whose party won most seats but was short of a majority, said he wanted to make a "big open and comprehensive offer" to the Lib Dems.
BBC political editor Nick Robinson said it could include Lib Dems in cabinet.
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 17:05
I think you're missing that the ruling party does not have the majority. They're dependent on Lib Dems to get anything done. The Tories now have to go cap in hand to get all sorts of stuff done essential to the formation of the government. That gives the Lib Dems and other parties enough power to balk the Tories at any stage if they should choose. If Clegg doesn't insist on election reform as one of the requirements for a coalition he'd be an idiot.
Pretty sure that was a general comment about elections from Matt, rather than the current election.
Rather than insist on electoral reform as part of a coalition deal, Clegg should instead oppose Cameron and appeal to the Queen and the rest of Government to reform the electoral system now and hold another General Election.
It's what I'd do anyway :D
Errrr
Because the party who just won, just won under the current system? What incentive do a ruling majority have to change a system which just got them elected?
Am I being thick here?
MB
My point is that the ruling party's resistance to change doesn't stop you, I, or anyone else (including the politicians) from discussing this. Yes, of course, the LD people discussed it in the run up to the election, as they were bound to do, but that still leaves a four-year gap.
In other words - beyond the natural "morning after" critique, if electoral reform is so important (and I have no problem believing that it is), then why don't we do something about it? How many people raised electoral reform with their MP? How many people started (or signed) a petition on the Number 10 web site? Deaf ears, maybe, but that is no excuse not to ask.
PS - those questions are directed at the masses, not anyone in particular.
If a vote was actually worth a vote then the Lib Dems would be in the running, if the Lib Dems were in the running, all the people who want to vote Lib Dem but won't because they 'can't win' might vote Lib Dem in which case the country would be a very different place.
MB
They also gain votes though due to tactical voting, impossible to know the numbers of either scenario though
The BNP got 1.9% of the vote, under proportional representation that equates to 12 MPs.
Apparently.
To be fair, I've seen that argument elsewhere, and as argued there, it's a non sequitur*. There are many proportional systems, and they could result in the BNP getting anything from no seats to, as you say, 12.
I'm not sure what the results under the single transferrable vote system (which seems to be the preference) would be, but it wouldn't be anywhere near 12. STV is a regional system, and the BNP is very much a regional party. In most areas they'd get nothing, though they might pick up a couple of seats in 'heartland' areas.
* Yes, I did learn that from Star Trek. Thank you Tuvok. :D
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 19:35
STV is the preferred version of PR, but not the only one.
But whatever happens, there hasn't been a Government in this country with a true majority for as far back as most people can remember.
The public interest in this election, as displayed by the increased turnout, is exactly the catlyst which is needed for change. 38degrees has started a petition to support it (when I'm back at an actual computer then I'll find a link for those interested) and I just hope that the current heightened interest in politics carries on and something is finally done.
And the argument that PR would give the BNP a voice is an argument of intolerance. True democracy and Western values is about tolerance.
"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it!"
STV is the preferred version of PR, but not the only one.
Which is what I said. :)
38degrees has started a petition to support it (when I'm back at an actual computer then I'll find a link for those interested) and I just hope that the current heightened interest in politics carries on and something is finally done.
And, lest I give the impression I'm anti-PR, I can help with that...
http://labs.38degrees.org.uk/all/media/103
http://labs.38degrees.org.uk/wall/reform
Dymetrie
07-05-2010, 19:46
Great minds and all that ;)
Thanks for the link, Mark.
My computer is in the other room :D
And the argument that PR would give the BNP a voice is an argument of intolerance. True democracy and Western values is about tolerance.
"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it!"
Too right :D
"I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it!"
My feeling entirely.
Stan_Lite
08-05-2010, 05:05
I keep seeing this quote from Cameron all over the place "....clear that the Labour government has lost its mandate to govern our country."
Every time I see it, I can't help thinking "Just over a third of the votes and less than half the seats in the house hardly give you a mandate you slimy little prick!" (those last three words always seem to spring to mind whenever I have any thoughts about him for some reason :confused:).
The Tories courting the LibDems at the moment reminds me of a sketch I saw in a film a long time ago. It involved a sperm who worked out, ate sensibly, slept properly and generally did everything he could to be the fittest sperm he could so he could succeed and be the first to the egg when the time came. All the other sperm just partied all the time and were fat and unfit.
Sure enough, when the arousal meter started to rise, the fit little sperm battled his way to the front and raced to the Jap's eye. When he looked out he turned and shouted a warning "It's a blowjob" but it was too late.
I can't help thinking of Nick Clegg and the LDs as the fit little sperm, working hard to make sure they can make a difference when the big day comes. "Dave" is the one giving the blowjob, getting the little sperm all excited so he'll rush to the bell end thinking he's going to get what he wants. My mind is shouting a warning to Clegg "It's a blowjob, Nick, after all your hard work, you're just going to get spat into a hankie and flushed - don't do it."
I may need treatment :o
Dymetrie
08-05-2010, 08:15
Have you been out in the sun for too long, Stan?
Other than the fact you've gone a bit strange, it's a good analogy :D
I'd rather see a Con Lib coalition than a Lab Lib one.
Pumpkinstew
08-05-2010, 09:40
I may need treatment :o
Too much time on the rig Stan? ;D
But continuing your analogy, if you're Nick Clegg Sperm, you'd be tempted to take the blowie over another 5 years impotence in the nut sack wouldn't you?
Von Smallhausen
08-05-2010, 11:43
LOL at Stan.
Have you considered writing for Mills & Boon ?
Stan_Lite
08-05-2010, 14:47
LOL at Stan.
Have you considered writing for Mills & Boon ?
Not sure where "Slimy little prick" could be made to fit into a Mills and Boon but I'd be willing to give it a go - might have to be a top shelf edition though :D
Dymetrie
09-05-2010, 11:37
Maybe someone should direct Mr Cameron this way, it'd save negotiating...
Cut price politician (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290433096884&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_975)
Maybe someone should direct Mr Cameron this way, it'd save negotiating...
Cut price politician (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290433096884&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_500wt_975)
bwahahaha ;D Some of the questions and answers are just fantastic
I don;t now why news keep banging on about a lab-lib coalition. It wont have enough seats. And getting the smaller parties on will cost to much.
I can't see a Con-LIb coalition either.
So Brown in, until vote of no confidence. Will that then allow Cameron in with a minority government? Which will then be blocked on policies and a re-election called.
Indeed,
Meanwhile our cheeky EU cousins are planning this little turd for the new gov't.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/7696870/British-taxpayers-ordered-to-bail-out-euro.html
I guess we could always claim a 10% bail-out. That'll teach them!
However, I think we should refuse and refer the whole thing to the ECJ. How is this ever a natural disaster? Simple - it isn't.
A Place of Light
09-05-2010, 17:03
I don;t now why news keep banging on about a lab-lib coalition. It wont have enough seats. And getting the smaller parties on will cost to much.
I can't see a Con-LIb coalition either.
So Brown in, until vote of no confidence. Will that then allow Cameron in with a minority government? Which will then be blocked on policies and a re-election called.
A Lib-Con coalition would be interesting, from a bystanders point of view. The Tories would absolutely decimate public services and after a period of time long enough for this to piss the public off they will be lambasted for it. If the Lib-Dems are in any form of co-operative partnership with the tories then they won't be able to disassociate themselves from the bloody nose the tories will receive.....after all they've only just found out how to attract the mainstream vote. If they did join forces I suspect they would let the Tories govern but only after they'd granted the Lib-Dem conditions.
Von Smallhausen
10-05-2010, 00:08
A Lib-Con coalition would be interesting, from a bystanders point of view. The Tories would absolutely decimate public services and after a period of time long enough for this to piss the public off they will be lambasted for it. If the Lib-Dems are in any form of co-operative partnership with the tories then they won't be able to disassociate themselves from the bloody nose the tories will receive.....after all they've only just found out how to attract the mainstream vote. If they did join forces I suspect they would let the Tories govern but only after they'd granted the Lib-Dem conditions.
In fairness APoL, whichever government takes over will have to cut public spending.
The current defecit is truly terrifying and must be tackled and that means spending cuts and likely tax rises.
There is not a Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem or coalition government that can magically change the fact that some very nasty tasting medicine has to be taken and swathes of the electorate getting very hacked off.
Stan_Lite
11-05-2010, 13:18
I paid a visit to the Shetland Times website earlier after this letter from the UKIP candidate showed up in the RSS feed.
Title: End for the Liberal Democrats.
Firstly, I’d like to thank all the people who voted for me and propelled us to the best UKIP result in Scotland and a trebling of our vote.
I will be standing again and will use the time between now and the next election to raise our profile further.
It will be an interesting week but no matter what the Lib Dems do it will be bad for their party.
A coalition with the Conservatives will lose them most of their membership and the support of the media.
A pact with the Labour Party and the other loonies will be an affront to democracy and should be punishable by political annihilation.
If they do neither they will be seen as irresponsible in a time of economic crisis. Their membership will also see this as the loss of a golden opportunity for electoral reform.
I think it’s the end for the Lib Dems. I look forward to another massive win for Alastair at the next election.
Robert Smith
UKIP candidate
The Orkney and Shetland constituency is a safe LibDem seat and has been for some time (and will be for a very long time to come). The sitting MP, Alistair Carmichael, increased his share of the vote to 62% in this election.
I laughed quite a lot when I read the letter and then I couldn't resist submitting a comment (currently awaiting moderation).
No sour grapes there then.
If Mr Smith’s result in Shetland, with 6.3% of the local vote, was “the best UKIP result in Scotland”, one cannot fail to see the irony of his calling other parties “loonies”. At least the “loonies” managed to attract enough votes to win seats to offer to a coalition. Mr Smith’s party on the other hand, despite fielding 572 candidates in the election, failed to win a single seat.
Still, as long as no one’s bitter, that’s the main thing.
- Stan Johnson
A Place of Light
11-05-2010, 17:55
In fairness APoL, whichever government takes over will have to cut public spending.
I couldn't agree more, but make no bones about it the Tories WILL cut much further than either of the other two parties and pretty much every pundit agrees on this. If you're a public servant you should be very worried about the prospect of a Tory Govt.
If you live in the UK you should be very worried about the prospect of a Tory Govt.
I don't often say this but I feel I have to.....
"Fixed for you"
:D
Knipples
11-05-2010, 18:59
Cheerio to my job when the contract runs out next March then. Quite how they think the stuff that projects like mine do will still get done I have no idea. The social workers are overloaded already. :(
It's all a bit worrying, no matter how it goes really. Not looking forward to a pay freeze for years to come (which is pretty much a certainty), though I guess I should think myself lucky if I manage to keep my job the way things are going!
On a side note... I've never seen so much of my MP on national telly!
If you're a public servant you should be very worried about the prospect of a Tory Govt.
You should be even more worried about a non tory government. If there is a complete melt down due to a doubling on the national debt within 10 years. Then it wont just be public sector.
the fact of the matter is public spending has to be slashed, more money has to be raised. Regardless of who got in.
Why blame the torries for fixing a problem someone else created.
I couldn't agree more, but make no bones about it the Tories WILL cut much further than either of the other two parties and pretty much every pundit agrees on this.
needs to be done though, terrible for anyone directly affected obviously
Simple fact is that Labour would really struggle to make the necessary cuts - it's just not in their nature. Tories on the other hand, will cut like crazy, as that's what they do, get unpopular like crazy, and then be annihilated. Ed Miliband for PM.
If you live in the UK you should be very worried.
"Really Fixed for you"
And that's before today's events. If Labour had remained I'd expect we'd have ended up going cap in hand to the IMF and the EU, with austerity measures to follow that make the Conservative manifesto look like a pittance. Indeed, there's no guarantee against that even now.
Matblack
11-05-2010, 20:29
You should be even more worried about a non tory government. If there is a complete melt down due to a doubling on the national debt within 10 years. Then it wont just be public sector.
the fact of the matter is public spending has to be slashed, more money has to be raised. Regardless of who got in.
Why blame the torries for fixing a problem someone else created.
Wow, you've really bought in to the Tory dream haven't you? Its ping pong politics, Labour overspend and then the Tories over compensate. That's what you get with FPtP elections. The Lib Dems might moderate it a bit this time but the result will be the same until our politicians learn to work together. I will be moving my efforts towards campaigning for PR I think, the Lib Dems might be able to raise their profile but what I want for the future is less ping pong and more cooperation.
MB
"Prime Minister can you give us a wave please sir?"
/David Cameron waves
I will be moving my efforts towards campaigning for PR I think, the Lib Dems might be able to raise their profile but what I want for the future is less ping pong and more cooperation.
Grand sentiments indeed. I'm not entirely sure it'll work quite that way, but nonetheless such wild swings in political opinion do no-one any favours and consensus politics certainly sounds like a good idea.
It'll need more than just PR though - it'll need an end to our adversarial system. One should hopefully lead to the other eventually, but don't bank on it being quick. I just hope they don't go with the AV 'fudge' - that would make things worse. AV+ is the minimum standard IMO.
Wow, you've really bought in to the Tory dream haven't you?
Not really, There are several things I don't like about tories. But in this election economy is the most important issue, that I believe Tories will be best at managing. As I have said best of a bad bunch.
I also agree we need more balance in government, I am not convinced about the pros of PR and what actual benefits they will bring. Especially when people keep saying PR and not which model. PR seems much more style over substance with an improved fairness, without any real gains.
GB as chancellor could of avoid lots of these problems, by reducing our deficit in time of boom, you could probably of also increased public spending a little, although I don't know the figures. Since this has not happened. The deficit has to be paid of.
Apart from the Capital Gains change, which I'm 99% sure will shaft my SAYE share options, most of what's been 'leaked' so far seems reasonable.
Wow, you've really bought in to the Tory dream haven't you?
Just as you buy in to your Liberal one where we can all live in a perfect world happily ever after. We all have our thoughts and beliefs mate :)
Who's to say that the Libs could ever make their "promises" work anyway? They'd more than likely end up just as bad as all politicians. People talk about them as if they are the chosen one who can do no wrong.
Del Lardo
12-05-2010, 08:30
Just as you buy in to your Liberal one where we can all live in a perfect world happily ever after. We all have our thoughts and beliefs mate :)
Who's to say that the Libs could ever make their "promises" work anyway? They'd more than likely end up just as bad as all politicians. People talk about them as if they are the chosen one who can do no wrong.
You're forgetting that Clegg is infact Obama wearing a mask. Think about it, you never see them together ;)
Apart from the Capital Gains change, which I'm 99% sure will shaft my SAYE share options, most of what's been 'leaked' so far seems reasonable.
OK, so maybe I was wrong. Glad I left that 1% there. :)
You're forgetting that Clegg is infact Obama wearing a mask. Think about it, you never see them together ;)
They're all clones. Repeat after me: "Change". :)
Pumpkinstew
12-05-2010, 09:32
Deputy PM and five cabinet ministers, income tax earning limit raised and a discussion (maybe even a referendum) on electoral reform. I'll say this for Clegg - he's grabbed the opportunity with both hands, and I'm definitely never playing poker with him.
Pumpkinstew
12-05-2010, 09:35
Ed Miliband for PM.
Not David?
Not David?
Yes, David. Brothers - damn them all! :o
Deputy PM and five cabinet ministers, income tax earning limit raised and a discussion (maybe even a referendum) on electoral reform. I'll say this for Clegg - he's grabbed the opportunity with both hands, and I'm definitely never playing poker with him.
Good on him. I think this is really exciting, I just hope that the disgruntled back benchers pro-actively help to sort out the mess this country is in rather than cause an obstruction.
Von Smallhausen
12-05-2010, 15:21
I couldn't agree more, but make no bones about it the Tories WILL cut much further than either of the other two parties and pretty much every pundit agrees on this. If you're a public servant you should be very worried about the prospect of a Tory Govt.
The public sector needs trimming. Would you not agree ?
Von Smallhausen
12-05-2010, 15:30
Wow, you've really bought in to the Tory dream haven't you? Its ping pong politics, Labour overspend and then the Tories over compensate. That's what you get with FPtP elections. The Lib Dems might moderate it a bit this time but the result will be the same until our politicians learn to work together. I will be moving my efforts towards campaigning for PR I think, the Lib Dems might be able to raise their profile but what I want for the future is less ping pong and more cooperation.
MB
I have to ask what were you expecting Mat ?
Barring an election overseen by Robert Mugabe, the Lib Dems were not ever going to get a majority to run the country no matter what voting system was in place.
As for cooperation, I think we are seeing the foundations of that now so let us at least give them a chance.
Nick Clegg as Deputy PM is a good choice. Vince Cable as Business Secretary is excellent and a Lib Dem Scottish Secretary is also a good move.
Nick Clegg and indeed the majority of Lib Dems knew that a pact with Labour would have ended up with them being decimated at the next election and this deal pretty much guarantees Lib Dems a greater share of votes and seats at the next election.
this deal pretty much guarantees Lib Dems a greater share of votes and seats at the next election.
I'd be incredibly surprised. They have alienated a lot of support and the only form of electoral reform on offer (AV) wouldn't really make much difference to our election results.
A Place of Light
12-05-2010, 17:41
The public sector needs trimming. Would you not agree ?
Trimming? Definitely.
Slashing with a broadsword? No.
Nobody is suggesting that there would be easy times ahead if a different party had won.....what I was actually saying was the Tories will slash and burn and not just "trim".
You can see why the Lib dems have done this deal. For the first time in years they've actually got close to winning a general election, so form a coalition with another party.....don't as long as they don't rock the boat too much they could actually have a fighting chance of winning the next GE outright. A good tactical move, but how they'll reconcile their differences with fundamental Tory party policy will be interesting to see.
I have to ask what were you expecting Mat ?
Barring an election overseen by Robert Mugabe, the Lib Dems were not ever going to get a majority to run the country no matter what voting system was in place.
As for cooperation, I think we are seeing the foundations of that now so let us at least give them a chance.
Nick Clegg as Deputy PM is a good choice. Vince Cable as Business Secretary is excellent and a Lib Dem Scottish Secretary is also a good move.
Nick Clegg and indeed the majority of Lib Dems knew that a pact with Labour would have ended up with them being decimated at the next election and this deal pretty much guarantees Lib Dems a greater share of votes and seats at the next election.
Agreed with that.
Von Smallhausen
12-05-2010, 18:45
You can see why the Lib dems have done this deal. For the first time in years they've actually got close to winning a general election, so form a coalition with another party.....don't as long as they don't rock the boat too much they could actually have a fighting chance of winning the next GE outright. A good tactical move, but how they'll reconcile their differences with fundamental Tory party policy will be interesting to see.
They got 25% of the popular vote and 57 seats in Parliament which is nowhere near close.
A coalition, supply agreement or to continue as the UK's third party were their only options as winning outright was not going to happen.
A Place of Light
13-05-2010, 17:35
They got 25% of the popular vote and 57 seats in Parliament which is nowhere near close.
It is when you compare their performance in the general elections of the last few decades. Their popularity/share of the vote has shot up, and it's not unreasonable to assume that it might not have peaked at current levels. They haven't been a realistic alternative in my lifetime nor yours, but we may have just seen the tide beinning to turn on that.
They got 25% of the popular vote and 57 seats in Parliament which is nowhere near close.
A coalition, supply agreement or to continue as the UK's third party were their only options as winning outright was not going to happen.
Looking at the figures, they got 23.0% of the vote. Why, that's a huge gap of just 6% fewer votes than Labour. World of difference, doesn't stand a chance. Definitely not a serious contender at all.
Trouble is, with FPTP, those votes don't get them that close as the support is too widespread and thus leaves them second in many many constituencies being beaten in areas with extreme Lab/Con support. :(
It is when you compare their performance in the general elections of the last few decades.
Last election was 22.1% so despite all this media attention, they have barely changed. Before that it has been higher and average around 18%ish.
83 they had a bigger share
FPTP and PR neither is really better. It's just a different way.
FPTP just looks at it on a local level, if more people in that area want Lab/Con, that's what they get.
FPTP and PR neither is really better. It's just a different way.
FPTP just looks at it on a local level, if more people in that area want Lab/Con, that's what they get.
But the reality is, my vote means diddly squat. I vote in a rock solid Conservative region.
My vote can only ever be for or against the Tories. If I'm against them the only thing I can do is vote Lib Dems. Any other vote is a waste. It doesn't matter who I really want in power other than Tories, I have to vote Lib Dems.
Worse than that, the reality is my region changes so little even in the midst of huge swings away from the Tories, I might as well not bother voting.
FPTP degrades the power of the individual to make a change, to have a voice, and it only effectively works in a two party electoral system. If we live in a democracy one vote should equal one vote. Plain and simple.
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