View Full Version : Teacher Pension - Strikes
Right guys, as a mature and reasonable guy (these days), and a somewhat premature grumpy old man, I have been forced to pay particular attention to the issues surrounding public sector pension review.
Basically I want your opinion as members of the general public, do you support the decision of 2 teaching unions to strike next Thursday against the proposed changes to the Teacher Pension Scheme (henceforth known as the TPS), or so you feel that it is unjustified?
Here is what I know (in bullet form):
There is not enough money in the public sector pension pot so cuts of one form or another are required.
3 years ago the TPS (part of the pot), was changed to address these issues with a promise to review and evaluate the changes this year to ensure it had done what is had required. In brief I believe one thing that changed was from a CPI to an RPI used to calculate and scale the pension.
The change has (I believe) ensured that the TPS is self-sufficient and viable, HOWEVER based on recommendations from the Hutton reports that the public sector as a whole needs changing, the government has NOT done a formal apprasial of this revised TPS as (presumably) it knows it will show that the TPS is not operating at a loss.
Teachers face a 3% rise in pension contributions, thats typically £100 less each month, with significantly reduced payout upon reaching the (also risen) retirement age of 67
It has been noted that the military is the "black hole" of the pensions pot, as they can retire on full pension at 40 with little/no contributions (need to confirm this) and - based on a life expectancy of 85) draw 45 years worth of pension.
Basically teachers are taking another hit to subsidise the parts of the public sector pensions that are losing money.
Now this statement is my own opinion and clearly not fact: The goverenment know that teachers are timid about action such s striking, and certain public sectors workers cannot strike, so perhaps they assume teachers will sit back and take it.
Yet more opinion:- To be a teacher can take 4 years of FE. With risen tuition fees that a £35k debt that a teacher will be facing when they start their career. They also then will have to look at extortionate monthy pension contributions and seek further financial support to subside their reduced pension. I ask you, how is this going to entice good quality teachers?
I open this up for discussion...
I'm not sure on the pension part - it all sounds a bit complicated and has the potential to be spin doctored (I'm not insinuating by you) to view from different stances.
But in response to the FE and rising costs, I've watched my friend go through his full training fully subsidised by the local authority - he has no student debts! :) A great incentive for a vital job role. Whether or not this is inflated inline with the cost of fees I do not know, however, anything is better than nothing!
He started his first teaching position within mere weeks of graduating and also gets a tidy bonus as he works in a 'bottom 100 in the UK school' or similarly rated; again, a good incentive to keep quality teachers at 'difficult' schools.
I would still train to be a teacher - I don't think they get a bad deal, though perhaps not as good as they have in previous years; in a time of cuts everywhere, perhaps this is how the teaching types are going to be effected?
Yes there are benefits, but it does seem like teachers are being given a raw deal at the moment. Why will the government not do the audit that would prove the TPS is working as it should?
I suppose what I am asking, is do you guys support the decision to strike, or are you of the opinion that striking for a day is selfish as teachers are about to go on their 6 week summer holiday? I'm biased; I want an external perspective.
I support it but 9 times out of 10 I tend to support the right to strike and thus striking in general. Never very keen on the 'Pfft x person has it better than me so why should they get to 'whine' about it?'. While it can be a pain in the arse if you're affected, I like that I live in a country where people can metaphorically (and sometimes literally) stand up and go 'Oi no. I don't like this'.
I also see it more that if I thought teachers had an easy life, I'd go train to be one! But I know I could never do it so I won't. A similar case with a lot of public sector roles.
I'm bound to have a skewed opinion though having grown up around University lecturers and my father being one also. A bit like teachers, University lecturers on the surface look like they have a very, very easy time. They don't all. My Dad never knew what work he had from term to term and was often on a wage that many on here would struggle on.
Mind you, in both cases, if you work your way up to the top, you're laughing and there will always be exceptions to the rule ;)
As an aside though and after what Jingo said: a good friend of mine trained as a primary school teacher. If what the news often goes on about was true, he'd have a job easily. He's male (and there's meant to be a desperate need for male primary school teachers) and bilingual so a Welsh school should happily snap him up.
Instead he's a supply teacher who regularly has to scrape pennies together, never knows what work he's going to have from day to day let alone week to week and yet still spends most of his free time organising lesson plans etc.
Oh and he had the joy of one kid throwing yoghurt at him yesterday and another threatening to hit him.
Rather him than me!
Knipples
22-06-2011, 18:49
As much as the pension issue stinks (and it does, part of my pension will be an LEA one due to me working for the council when Marchant was at primary school) I dont actually think many teachers will walk out, nor should they walk out (even though I fully agree with the reasons behind it) because at the end of the day, teachers became teachers to educate and look after children, and these strikes will make those very same children suffer because they will miss out on a day of education, also their parents will suffer because they will have to take a day off etc.
People go on about teachers getting "all that holiday" its not actually holiday is it though, they get paid for the number of weeks they are at work, less the school holidays and then it just gets worked out and divided over 12 months.
That said, it might be the only way to actually get people to listen, part of the idea behind strikes is to cause chaos, and disruption, so that attention is drawn to the reason behind the strikes. Next Thursday is going to cause chaos if lots of teachers walk out, we've already had schools ringing our office to cancel meetings that have been booked for weeks, because they either won't be in that day, or they can't leave the school, as they don't know how many staff they will have in (am I right in saying that they don't have to give advance warning to the school they work for?)
So I guess what I am saying is I can see it from both sides, I also don't think teachers will be the only ones striking over the next few months, the bin men in Bristol walked out today over pay for example. Good luck with whatever you decide to do Picky, it can't be an easy decision to make. :)
Knipples
22-06-2011, 18:51
Oh and he had the joy of one kid throwing yoghurt at him yesterday and another threatening to hit him.
Rather him than me!
The teachers in the schools in the area of Bristol I work in are regularly getting assaulted by the children they teach, and subjected to verbal abuse left right and centre. I dont know how they do it. They can't boot the all the "bad" kids out because they'd have no one left to teach :shocked:
Matblack
22-06-2011, 18:56
A lot of public sector workers are underpaid for their level of education in comparison to private sector, I get fed up with being told that teachers teach and nurses nurse because it's a vocation and they do it for love. The one concession that they did get was that they could retire a little early with a half decent pension in comparision to their wages when they were earning bit thats been eroded. Teaching and working in education in general is a thankless task. Strike, protect your rights and draw attention to the inbalance :)
MB
Im luck in the school that I work at - generally there is little in the way of yoghurt throwing, but there are challenges in facing a room full of teenage boys; how the goverment expect teachers to have the energy to do that when they are 67 to receive full pension is beyond me!
Anyway, yes knipples, the strike would cause disruption to education; but how else do workers demonstrate their worth and their discontent at proposed changes that will put their future financial stability at risk? If the changes came in in full force, I can see many teachers leaving the profession for good, not just one day!
As it is, on that day there are no external exams, all external examinations are over and therefore "quality teaching time" isnt really there. At this time of year, its a lot of admin for teachers. The disruption would be parents having to take time off work to look after their children because schools arent fully staffed.
Briggykins
22-06-2011, 20:32
Strike! I'll join you on the picket line. While I accept that there isn't enough money in the public sector pot, I don't accept that teacher's pensions (or nurses, social workers, or any front-line public sector workers) should take the hit. We need good, well-qualified teachers teaching the subject they took a degree in.
This does of course lead to the question of what you cut instead. For a start I'd throw the High Speed 2 railway line out - upgrading what is already the best-connected parts of the country doesn't seem to me to be a priority at the moment. There you go, that's £32 billion for you right there.
We are though, it seems to me, quite a liberal forum. Bet you if asked the same question over on the other place you'd get a different response.
Del Lardo
22-06-2011, 20:47
On whether you should strike because of pension reforms, I honestly have no idea as I don't have anywhere close to a good enough understanding of the situation and to be honest I don't trust what either side (the government and unions) are saying as both will always put out a highly spun, one sided viewpoint.
What concerns me is the actual numbers in the Teaching Unions that have voted in favour of a strike, for the NUT it was 92% in favour with 40% turn out (so only 36.8% actually voted in favour) and for the ATL it was 83% in favour with turn out of 35% (so only 29% actually voted in favour). Now I'm not claiming that the remainder weren't in favour of the strike action but to strike when only 29% of your members have said they want to seems wrong to me though I'm sure that similar statistic could be banded about for the Tory victory in the General Election :D
Del Lardo
22-06-2011, 20:55
I'll also say that I think the Unions in general will struggle to gain support from the general public at the moment, a lot of people in the private sector have really suffered in the last couple of years and whether you like it or not there is a great deal of bad feeling towards the public sector in general even though most of it is backed up with little fact.
The recent strikes by the Underground staff and BA Cabin Crew have also given strikes a very bad name, certainly from people I know and have spoken to there zero support and there is the perception that they were/are about greed and power at a time (again) when people were loosing jobs or taking pay cuts to stay in work.
My several p:
They changed from RPI to CPI, not the other way around. :) CPI excludes things like mortgage payments, estate agent fees and council tax - which a typical pensioner either wouldn't pay, or would get discounts upon. It's also, conveniently (for the government), historically lower than RPI.
I'm supportive of the right to strike, but not of the current wave of reasons for striking. Private sector has had to deal with dwindling pension pots and rising retirement ages for years, so I think equalisation is fair.
But, I accept that if you're going to equalise pensions, you should equalise salaries as well - i.e. ideally the package as a whole should be approximately equal.
The above is, however, a utopia. Reality doesn't work like that - the private sector will always try to head hunt the best, and that means paying them the best.
Don't think the comparison with the armed forces (or the Police/Fire Service, for that matter) is fair. It's called 'hazard pay'. Much as tabloids might have people believe otherwise, classrooms are typically not war zones and teachers typically don't suspend their home lives for six months while they go stand on the front line getting bombed and shot at.
There's too much petty bickering, still. For off-topic example: Strike when you really need to, not just because one of your colleagues was wrongly dismissed. That's what an employment tribunal is for, and TfL have duly been hoisted by their own petards. If TfL don't take heed, then is the time to strike.
Be warned - while this might not apply specifically to teachers, if you strike over minutiae or things that everyone else has to put up with anyway, don't expect support when you plan to strike over something that really matters. :)
That's just it mark, teachers never strike (well, NUT do).
Of course, being the biggest union, what NUT does gets lumped on everyone else (yes, I'm guilty).
In this case, I don't particularly mind either way, but if some, especially RMT, don't get a reality check soon, everyone will pay for it.
I'm also biased against unions anyway - never been a member of one and they're not recognised at my workplace (beyond legal duties, obviously), so there's no reason why I should.
TinkerBell
23-06-2011, 08:08
I don't watch the news, so I haven't heard all the in's and out's about it.
However my general opinion is that the majority of the time the british as a nation take a massive beating from the government and we mostly just roll over and take it. So I think there should be more strikes to drop alot of the prices. For example petrol prices, the british have one of the highest prices for fuel, because alot of the other countries said no to rises and actually did something about it. So I think you should strike and to be quite honest, 1 day won't make much of a difference to the kids education. If it did, parents wouldn't take them on holiday in school time.
Has anybody seen the striking/protests going on in Spain at the moment and over past months?
Thousands and thousands of people protesting yet the governments have clamped right down on the media so it has had hardly any media coverage...
I think striking is certainly an effective way of causing a scene/further awareness/proving you mean business, but it needs to be a majority doing it for it to have any effect... Bristol Uni staff striked recently but not all of them and I had a 'normal' day in uni completely unaffected bar the small group of polite people with signs on the picket... THAT was a waste of time and got them nowhere.
Our (the county's) schools are helpfully closed on the day of the strike! I don't teach on Thursdays but worried that my interview will be then and I'll have to cross the picket line!!!
Also generally worried that striking will affect my job. At the moment I couldn't care less about a pension as long as I have a job but should think of the long term!
I envy your right to strike. I'm one of the ones who is adversely effected though, having to take a days annual leave in order to cover your day. Which wouldn't be the end of the world but I am currently £1000 worse off a year (after tax), possibly with another £200pcm to go too (London weighting) with virtually no support staff and fewer front line staff, knackered cars, no replacement uniform, increased pension contributions in the pipeline and we can't strike as it's illegal.
I'm not called Murphy. I am bitter. ;)
Oh, just realised I can't strike as i have a girl coming in to do an exam.
In my opinion this whole thing stinks. You join an organisation based on the job and the benefits. Many have chosen their career in teaching/civil service/public services based on job security, accepting that it's not the best pay in the world, but a good pension package at the end so you at least have something later in life. So then they decide to take it all away from you and you end up with all the dis-benefits of the job but none of the benefits. What a load of ****.
I think I'm with the teachers on this one although I'm not 100% clued up on all the details, but surely there has to be a better solution that to strike? I don't see where it gets you in the long term...not enough people will support you.
What might be a better solution is to go in to school, get the kids in to school but then not do anything from the curriculum. Maybe just let the kids play or something. Do that for a few days and see what happens. I think you'll get more support from parents who haven't had their days disrupted at least.
What they are refusing to accept the majority of us would be delighted to get
No doubt about it, plenty of people in the private sector would like a half decent pension, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules have been changed. On the other hand, businesses change their rules and people also have to just deal with it or possibly just lose their jobs. It's certainly not a cut and dried situation.
No doubt about it, plenty of people in the private sector would like a half decent pension, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules have been changed. On the other hand, businesses change their rules and people also have to just deal with it or possibly just lose their jobs. It's certainly not a cut and dried situation.
Yes, everyones pension rules are changing, my final salary pension went from 3% contribution to 12% and then was scrapped and I was put on defined contribution, investments are not making what theyw ere and these schemes are not viable any more
as an example of private sector I ghave had to put with
only 2 pay rises in 8 years, most of my colleagues have not had anything for 10 years
on call rates cut twice
overtime rates cut
car allowance frozen for 10 years
mileage allowance based on being paid on 30mpg to 35mpg
bonus scheme removed
share purchase scheme removed
lunch allowance removed
phone allowance removed
broadband payment cut by 60%
expenses allowances roughly halved
so while I have some sympathy I think it's time for people to wake up to the real world, some things such as base pay for nurses/military needs addressing but in general public service worker are not hard done to, the pay differentials have vanished and the security and benefits thrash the private sector even after the cuts
I see what you are saying but;
on call rates cut twice
overtime rates cut
car allowance frozen for 10 years
mileage allowance based on being paid on 30mpg to 35mpg
bonus scheme removed
share purchase scheme removed
lunch allowance removed
phone allowance removed
broadband payment cut by 60%
expenses allowances roughly halved
All of the above, as a teacher, we dont get nor ever will get. The perk is the pension being "a great one", so your list of privaleges you've lost doesnt really compare :huh:.
To get into my job now, as a school leaver I'd be facing:
4 years at least at university @ £9k a year tuition racking up a horrendous £36k student debt (if not, more if living expenses are included) with no writing off of student debt for teachers (a perk taken away before I trained). O/T - I heard a minister saying that graduates on average will easily earn back expenses for student loan : - not if they become classroom teachers they wont!
Lower than average graduate wages (for certain subjects at least)
Frozen pay rates (for the moment)
When commencing teaching, losing a hefty sum of every pay check to the student loan company.
If opting in to TPS, greater contributions per month, leaving less monthly disposable income, AND given student debt repayments coping with the reality that the reduced pension is unlikely to be sufficient after retirement, especially if you leave the profession before 67.
And the government expect people to want to become teachers? It really is a bit of a farce.
I see what you are saying but;
All of the above, as a teacher, we dont get nor ever will get. The perk is the pension being "a great one", so your list of privaleges you've lost doesnt really compare :huh:.
.
but the new pension offered is still pretty superb and the majority of people would be delighted to have it, the old one is unsustainable in the current climate
but the new pension offered is still pretty superb and the majority of people would be delighted to have it, the old one is unsustainable in the current climate
Hmm the current one is sustainable for teachers. The problem is OTHER public sector pensions are not sustainable, and the teachers make for easy targets, it seems.
whatever your thoughts, spare some for us getting egged as we cross the picket line tomorrow! We're not allowed to strike as we're not public sector, but we share a building and an account with those who are, so as usual, that'll be a true delight.
You know I'm very placid, but I'd be wanting to chin any ****er that thought it was OK to egg me.
"Please support us!"
"Ok!"
*thwack*
"Er, no, on second thoughts, I won't".
"Please support us!"
"Ok!"
*thwack*
"Er, no, on second thoughts, I won't".
sounds fair, maybe take some of your own to return fire :p
Briggykins
29-06-2011, 19:16
You know I'm very placid, but I'd be wanting to chin any ****er that thought it was OK to egg me.
Prescott? Is that you?
I don't have much time for politicians but on that occasion I was right behind him :D
Knipples
30-06-2011, 07:14
The hysteria around today is already bugging me. One person on itv just referred to it as "the beginning of the apocalypse" :angry:
Briggykins
30-06-2011, 11:21
I don't have much time for politicians but on that occasion I was right behind him :D
Absolutely :) The mullet alone was worth a pummelling.
The new offer made today is an absolute disgrace, the previous offer was already extremely generous and well ahead of market practice and now due to union pressure they have increased it even more, do they think this money appears out of thin air ? :angry:
Not sure to what you refer grandad. All I know is that some teachers (and presumably other public sector workers) pay more into a pension pot and will get less back. So no, we know money doesn't appear from thin air, but of we put money in the pension pot, it should be there when we retire, not funding people who haven't contributed so much.
Not sure to what you refer grandad. All I know is that some teachers (and presumably other public sector workers) pay more into a pension pot and will get less back. So no, we know money doesn't appear from thin air, but of we put money in the pension pot, it should be there when we retire, not funding people who haven't contributed so much.
there will still be far more than you have contributed, investments make less these days so something has to change, the options being employer ( taxpayer ) contribtions, employee contributions or benefits, it has happened to almost everyone and the result is the same, higher contributions and lower benefits, the public sector should not be shielded for the facts of life that everyone else has had to put up with
re what they put in being there when they retire that will still be the case, benefits already accrued are unaffected
Point in case: My pension pot this year has decreased by around $300, despite having paid in thousands. The stock market hasn't been all that good this year. It'll recover eventually. A pension is a gamble. You're gambling on the expertise of the investors at your pension company and the market. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Generally you win, but not always.
Point in case: My pension pot this year has decreased by around $300, despite having paid in thousands. The stock market hasn't been all that good this year. It'll recover eventually. A pension is a gamble. You're gambling on the expertise of the investors at your pension company and the market. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Generally you win, but not always.
exactly but the public sector wants to be shielded from this and the rest of us to pick up the cost
Indeed - seems far too many are still thinking that final salary pensions are a right. That's why so many schemes are now heavily in debt. Just look at how much the government is going to have to pump into Royal Mail to bail them out.
Final Salary pensions are a 20th century thing. It's about time some unions stopped living there. I do think some cuts are going too far and too fast, but the UK is on life support just like several other EU countries, and the creditors are out for blood.
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