Camera Help

[Matblack]

We currently have a Canon A80 which I like a lot but which is becoming a little battered and has some issues with lower lighting conditions and isn't particularly responsive. The LCD is a little small too.

We are likely to go on a nice holiday next year and I would like to be able to take good shots and have a decent zoom either optical or a decent pixel count so I can zoom digitally later without losing too much quality(does that work?).

I like a larger camera, its the reason I chose the A80, it has a hand grip and doesn't get lost in my hands, I shoot mostly in AUTO mode and rarely switch to the half manual or full manual modes or change the ISO setting, I do understand what shutter speed does and had a little play recently at a funfair to get some tracing effects but thats about it.

I'm thinking Christmas might be a good time to change, it would be in time to get used to a new camera before we went away. I am certainly not a prosumer or a keen amatuer and I supose I should be in the market for a point and shoot but the Digtal Rebel XT apeals to the geek in me.

I like Canon and I've never had any issues with them so thats my first point of call, I've looked at the S3 IS which looks great with a 12x zoom and generally good reviews, the new G7 is also getting some very good reviews but I'm just not sure. I'll probably go and hold a DSLR and get a geek-on and buy one but this may not be and to be honest proabably isn't the best choice.

Any ideas?

MB

[Mark]

If you're prepared to go elsewhere from Canon, and you like the S3 IS. Have a look at the Sony DSC-H5. Similar specs to the S3, but 1MP more (I believe) and a bigger screen. Mejinks has one and I'm in the market when I can afford (had a play with one and like it).

[petemc]

Its basically the choice between a point and shoot or a DSLR money pit. No P&S will have the image quality or noise handling of a DSLR, but it will have the one off price, it'll be smaller and easier to carry, and it will also give you nice images from the start. DSLR's are known to have slightly flat looking images compared to P&S's because they know people will be working on them in Photoshop.

DSLR...

+ Better image quality
+ Better noise handling
+ Great range of lenses for any type of photography
+ More manly size, if you get a 10/20/30D not a 300/350/400D
+ Quicker auto focus and image buffer
+ What you see is what you get. You see through the lens which is brilliant.
+ Instant startup time

- Bukly, lots of extra kit to carry. Can never just go out with 1 lens
- Expensive. Constant money pit. "Just one more lens darling?"
- Get told off for being a terrorist ;)

P&S...

+ Small, compact, light. Great to travel with
+ One decent range lens. Can be from about 28mm to 400mm.
+ Cheap. Pay the store price and you're done.

- Image quality and noise handling isn't upto DSLR standards
- Fixed lens. If you want more you have to buy a new cam
- Slowish buffer / autofocus

The Digital Rebel XTi DSLR Turbo is the American name. For some reason they have to brand theirs. Its just a 400D here :) The G7 has a range of about 35mm to 210mm. Decent enough range. The guy on Luminous Landscape (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/Canon-G7.shtml) loved it and bought one. The Canon Powershot S3 IS has an even greater range. I think it goes to about 400mm.

Prices.

Canon S3 = £400 for 36mm to 400mm
Canon G7 = £450 for 35mm to 210mm

Canon 400D = £500 for 18mm to 55mm
Sigma 70-300 = £150ish for 70-300mm - its not *that* good a lens
Canon 100-400 L = £1000 for 100mm to 400mm. Brilliant lens. Rather big, 1 foot long extended.

Also the Panasonic range are great as they have Leica lenses.

If you're prepared to go elsewhere from Canon, and you like the S3 IS. Have a look at the Sony DSC-H5. Similar specs to the S3, but 1MP more (I believe) and a bigger screen. Mejinks has one and I'm in the market when I can afford (had a play with one and like it).

Compared to the most obvious competitors - the Canon S3 IS and Panasonic DMC-FZ7 - the Sony H5 scores highly in handling, features, overall image quality and ease of use, and only really falls short in a couple of areas; burst mode, focus speed in low light (specifically at the long end of the zoom), and the purple fringing. The Canon S3IS wins hands-down when it coes to movies, the FZ7's lens and superior image stabilization means that at lower ISO settings it still, just, rules the roost when it comes to edge-to-edge sharpness, but the H5 offers a very attractive overall package that handles better than either, and - if that's what you like in a camera - has that nice big screen to boot.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonyh5/page15.asp

[mejinks]

The purple fringing they mention I had to manually force to get any sign of it. By that, I mean bright sunlight behind a dark shadowy scene, like in front of a garage, just ever so slightly around the edges of the garage wall.

If you want some samples of pictures I took in P&S mode, let me know.

I think its a good camera, but as it only has 2 batteries, always carry another set.

To be fair to the camera, I found taking photos of the fireworks this year fairly easy. I haven't used a camera that handles low light as well as the H5, but then im no pro.

I have not only read the reviews on dpreview, but I looked at the forum comments comparing the S3 and the H5 and most people seem to plum for the H5. I got a telephoto lense off the bay of E and its the best thing I bought. The only thing I hate about the H5 is that you have to buy a seperate charger and its not a simple affair using the camera on mains power either.

[Matblack]

Thanks chaps, theres some really useful info there :)

I've also seen the Fujifilm Finepix S9600 which seems like an interesting compromise between dSLR and compact and has a manual zoom action which appeals more than the slow powered zoom.

I will have to go and find time to have a look and see which ones I like the feel of :)

MB

[Mark]

I will have to go and find time to have a look and see which ones I like the feel of :)
Best way tbh. I don't think my local Jessops has caught on to that trick yet. :D

[Flibster]

The S9600 is a minor upgrade from the S9500 *shock horror*

Got the S9500 here and got some lovely shots from it. Some have been used by the Vulcan to the Sky Trust and I've sold more than a few prints. :D

I went for it as a stopgap between the A80 and the 20D - use more as a P&S rather than a dslr.

As my 20d failed after 149 shots *not happy* and they couldn't source a replacement and I didn't want it repaired I've not just got the A80 and S9500

4gb card gives around 900 shots on jpeg, 210 on raw.

Set of 4 2500mah AA batteries is around 400 shots on jpeg. Yet to run flat a set while using raw.

Noise is fine up to iso200, bareable and sortable on 400, 800 is a little messy and 1600 is pretty bad.

Internal flash is ok, but can use a basic external flash very easily.

The biggest usefull feature for me is the ring control for the zoom. It's great. :D Zoom in and out so quickly.

Can also use XD or Compact flash - which as you've got an A80 you should have some of. ;)

If you want some full size images to take a look at let me know. :D They are on the big size though. 4.5mb jpeg, 18.5mb raw and 105mb tiff :shocked:

I picked the S9500 for many reasons, image quality, zoom usefullness, the way it felt to use, AA battery use, compact flash, ability to use an external flash. Don't regret buying it the slightest. Goes with me everywhere.

Can't say the same for the 20d though. :(

Simon/~Flibscrooge

[Matblack]

OK, I had a look at the Panasonic DMC-FZ7 today which I liked, its a small camera (compared to the Fuji) but its feels like a mini SLR.

However I also like the look of the DMC-FZ30 which is bigger but has 8 as opposed to 6 Mp and will shoot in RAW and also has a manual focus ring

I still like the Fuji's they are larger (more like dSLR size) and the don't have Image Stabilization which when you are using the zoom might be an issue?

The nice thing is I am learning a lot more about camera :) Reading about RAW led me to reading about HDR which I think looks amazing, interestingly I found a free piece of software which will control my Canon through USB and get it to take a series of pics which can then be used for HDR :shocked: so I might have to give that a go. I'd like to be able to do that HDR effect but it seems like you have to take lots of exposures at different levels and I'm not sure how I'd get a camera to do that without automation like linking it to a laptop and using this software.

So I'm not a lot further towards deciding, I'm erring towards the more expensive Panasonic because of the IS and the good zoom but the Fuji has a better wide angle :/

MB

[Mondo]

What you are describing is call bracketing exposure, there is often a button on the camera that does that. It'll take a series of pictures, usually 3. 1 at -1, then 0 and then +1 stop. So you get 3 photos, one is under exposed by 1 stop, then 1 at normal, and 1 is overexposed at 1 stop. Using photomatix you put them 3 in and generate a HDR. That is generally what is a TRUE HDR, rather than using a RAW image. But to bracketing exposure you will need a still subject and even a tripod. Because if you start to move or the subjects move, the 3 images will be slightly different. Hence where I think RAW has the edge because it is 1 photo then split into 3.

[petemc]

Yeah having RAW would be beneficial for HDR. You don't need the software, just a tripod. My hdr guide (http://petemc.net/hdr-guide) tells all :) The major issue with RAW is that on a DSLR at ISO100 the noise can be an issue sometimes. On a digital compact, which doesn't have as good noise handling, it can be a real pain.

[Matblack]

Thanks Pete

I 'think' I am settling on the Fuji S9600, its a big camera and not far off the price of a dSLR but I think it will be more suited to my style, despite the low level light performance not being that good.

To get a decent zoom along with a dSLR I'd be looking at big money and without it I don't think I'd get the kind of pics I want to be taking the 350D or equivilant seem very limited in terms of zoom.

Anyone got any final thoughts?

MB

[Matblack]

I've been looking at the Panasonic like you suggested Pete and it seems to have more issues with noise in low light than the Fuji equivilant although the Panasonic has got IS :/

MB

[petemc]

Its tricky really. DPReview say that the Panasonic FZ50 pushes the sensor close to breaking point and above ISO400 the noise reduction makes the images far too soft. However they highly recommend it. :dunno: Unfortunately I can't find any reviews of the Fuji S9600.

[Matblack]

OK

'if' I decided to go with a relatively inexpensive dSLR ie 350D would the lens I get with it have any form of zoom? It says 18-55mm in the standard kit, which is wide angle to some zoom I think? How does this equate to the idiots x2, x3, x4 I am used to?

MB

MB

[Flibster]

To give you an idea of zoom equivilance - a 3x optical zoom is roughly the equivilent of a 35-100mm lens.

It does vary though depending on the camera in question. I'd go with 'around 2x'

Have you looked at the S9500 - thats now available much cheaper as it's the outgoing model. ;) The Fuji S9600 is very very new. My local camera place doesn't have one yet. Not entirely sure whats different about it compared to the S9500. I think it's got the next gen sensor... MP is unchanged and so is the zoom.

The S9500 has very little noise reduction which is good, but has a bad amount of noise at ISO 800 and higher. It's managable at ISO400

Can I pimp my S9500 a little now? ;)

http://flibster.com/Images/VTTS-Members-Day-26-11-2006/Whittle3-small.jpg

Simon/~Flibster

[Matblack]

Can I pimp my S9500 a little now? ;)



Yes you may, show me more photos and explain to me that it will be easy to use in auto (when I am lazy) and will encourage me to try the manual modes (which the A80 doesn't) ;)

MB

[Mondo]

The difference between 6x zoom to 10x zoom might not be as big as you think due to the way it is calculated.

It is calculated from the longest focal length divided by the shortest.

Hence

A 50mm Prime lens is a 1X zoom

A 500mm Prime lens is also a 1X zoom

Since 50/1 and 500/1 both = 1

But as you probably can guess the 500mm has a hell of a reach where the 50mm is practically the same as your normal view of vision.

So a 70-200mm is a 2.8X zoom

where a 70-300mm = 4.2X zoom

but a 28-135mm is a 4.8X zoom

The 28-135 has a bigger zoom but it won't magnify as well as the 70-300mm. So 10x zoom compared to a 6X zoom is often misleading and a GREAT way to fool general consumers who thinks the bigger the number is better.

The way to check is just ignore that zoom number and look at the focal length instead.

As for taking photos in dark conditions, you'll need a wide aperture and high ISO while maintaining at a shutter speed at least 1/60 if possible. Unless you use a flash (might need one the size of a house if you are sitting at the back row) or a tripod. With a point and zoon, often anything above 400ISO the noise is overwelming. Therefore you just have to either try your luck or get near the front as with most camera, at the longest focal length, the aperture is smaller = less light.

P.s. Take a closer look at the Canon G7 as well, it is getting rave reviews everywhere.

[Mark]

Since 50/1 and 500/1 both = 1
Oh no they don't

The rest of the post about focal lengths is factually correct though. Having said that, most of the bridge cameras in the 12x zoom range have similar telephoto focal lengths (somewhere close to 400mm). Now, that *is* expensive lens time for a dSLR. :)

[Mondo]

Oh no they don't

The rest of the post about focal lengths is factually correct though. Having said that, most of the bridge cameras in the 12x zoom range have similar telephoto focal lengths (somewhere close to 400mm). Now, that *is* expensive lens time for a dSLR. :)

LOL...I realise what i said now...you are right, it should be 50/50 or 500/500. Since the front and end focal are the same.

[Matblack]

OK that makes sense, so 50mm is about the same as I see with my eye, hence most of these kit lenses go from a mild wide angle up to about 'eye normal'? If I wanted to get something close to what I get with my A80 magnification wise (not quality) I would need a 300mm lens?

It seems to make sense, my only concerns with the bridge cameras are the size of the CCD in comparision to the dSLRs and the sharpness and noise of the photo. However I suspect that as I won't be using them for much arty stuff like tight depth of field, very low light, blowing up to large enlargements etc I don't suppose it really matters.

I'm still drawn to the Fujifilm 9500/9600 although I realise now I don't really need the massive zoom capability and that at more than 6x I will need excentionaly good light and a tripod to get sharp pics.

Thanks for all the help so far :)

MB

[Mark]

I'm still drawn to the Fujifilm 9500/9600 although I realise now I don't really need the massive zoom capability and that at more than 6x I will need excentionaly good light and a tripod to get sharp pics.
Or IS.

I tried a Sony DSC-H5 at the full 12x (400mm-ish) zoom, admittedly in good light, and was able to get a seemingly pinsharp shot while handheld. The image was still wandering all over the place, but thanks to taking my time and being gentle on the shutter, I pulled it off.

[Matblack]

Theres just something about the Sony cameras, I can't quite put my finger on it whether its the styling, the name or what but I keep skipping over them :/. A lot of people seem to swear by them though, maybe I actually need to get hands on with one?

MB

[Mark]

Try the black H5. It looks more 'serious' than the grey ones. I have good reason for liking them - the 3in screen rocks. :)

[mejinks]

Try the black H5. It looks more 'serious' than the grey ones. I have good reason for liking them - the 3in screen rocks. :)


One issue I have with mine is that it doesn't do RAW and only having 2 batteries means you need to carry spares. But yes, the H5 in black is sexeh. I will be bringing mine to Swansea if you want to have a play. (with the camera that is ;D)

[Mark]

Yeah, that is one limitation which will make HDR a little difficult. I'm not sure if the H5 does exposure bracketing (I suspect it probably does).

I always carry a spare camera battery, and I have loads of NiMH batteries. No biggie for me there.

[Matblack]

Well I had a look at the Sony and the S9600 and the S6500fd and I think out of all of them my favorite for feel and also features is the S6500fd. Although the Mp count is lower and it doesn't have the facility for an external flash these are not things which bother me. I like the lower light performance in comparison to the S9600 and also the face detection technology as the majority of the pics I take are either views or informal portraits.

Best of all Jessops will pice match Dixons who have the product for £240 so its good value too.

If the manual tool lead me to need a dSLR then so be it I will get one in a year or so, if I find I am not using the manual options I can go back to a smaller P&S or stick with a 'bridge' style camera :)

MB

[Mark]

Sounds like a plan. Can't beat holding one in your hands and trying it out. Jessops price matching is a bonus as you get 10% of the difference off the price.

[Matblack]

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/5317/20060101testing0002aj5.jpg

Seems to work :)

MB

[mejinks]

Holy Huge picture batman

[Matblack]

Holy Huge picture batman

What what, its an 800x600 :dunno:

MB

[Dymetrie]

awwwwwwwwwwww

Seems to work :)

MB

I want a pet cat again :(

[mejinks]

What what, its an 800x600 :dunno:

MB

Stealth Edit.......:)

[Mark]

Nice way to start. Surprised the cat didn't run away given how nervous they are. :)