View Full Version : VISTA on pre-order..
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 10:37
http://www.*****clockers.co.uk/search_results.php?sortby=&groupid=33&string=vista
Prices don't seem to bad to me.
What do you think?
semi-pro waster
03-01-2007, 16:14
The prices are nowhere near as horrendous as I was expecting given Microsofts intended pricing on the website but it is still a fair chunk of change for an upgrade most people don't need. With every other Windows upgrade I could see benefits, with Vista I can't see anything that will be useful to me that XP can't do. My other issue is that they appear to be diversifying the range even further which must be more confusing for ordinary users i.e. those who don't care enough to research in detail exactly what each package entails.
That said I will no doubt upgrade when I build my next PC but I'm in no real rush as other than DX10, there is minimal incentive and even that is hardly imperative at the moment. Maybe it will be a huge leap forwards but for the most part I don't think it is based on the information I have seen/gleaned from a few sources. :)
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 16:36
Yeah I'm not buying it until i buy the DX10 card.
I have heard that Vista has it's own sort DRM making it a more secure system. The flipside to this is that MS are keen to drop XP support as soon possible. Again, only rumour.
XP will be supported for a while yet. We'll see mainstream support till 2010 at least I reckon, and extended support will be enough to satisfy most peoples needs by that stage. The odds of finding any significant functionality bugs at that stage are very slim.
Thats fairly tempting at that price. If like in the past you could active the oem licence as many times as you want... it would be good. However if as reported you change the mobo and you need to buy another copy its crap :(
I think MS are still supporting win2k, I keep getting security updates for my other system
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 16:48
is a change of mobo automatically dedected in XP when using an OEM license?
killerkebab
03-01-2007, 16:48
WHAT? A new copy for a new PC? WTF?
Are they trying to get more people to load pirate OSs?
This is in the OEM version, if MS decide to implement it. The retail version will not have this problem. I use pirate copies of XP so I wouldn''t know :D
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 16:51
WHAT? A new copy for a new PC? WTF?
Are they trying to get more people to load pirate OSs?
That's always been the case of an OEM licence.. Which is dictated by the Motherbaord and case.
I think MS are still supporting win2k, I keep getting security updates for my other system
The delays in Vista and XP forced them too. There was quite a large outcry when it was initially apparent people would have no choice but to upgrade to XP which was already a few of years into it's life cycle.
It's not on mainstream support, but it is on extended until July 2010.
[edit]Apparantly IE6 is no longer supported: http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifesupsps/#Internet_Explorer
Must be out of date though, they'd get a kicking for the same reasons. Besides, they're actively releasing updates at the moment.
killerkebab
03-01-2007, 16:52
That's always been the case of an OEM licence.. Which is dictated by the Motherbaord and case.Sorry, I need to learn to read...
Does Vista have any advanced any piracy techniques over XP?
Sorry, I need to learn to read...
Does Vista have any advanced any piracy techniques over XP?
Certainly does (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2006/oct06/10-04SoftwareProtection.mspx), the software protection platform (http://download.microsoft.com/download/c/2/9/c2935f83-1a10-4e4a-a137-c1db829637f5/10-03-06SoftwareProtectionWP.doc). Doesn't mean they wont be got around though, it's inevitable.
It's not in Office 2007 curiously though, that uses the current activation system.
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 17:02
bumping my previous question, does XP dectect if a new motherboard is installed?
Yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean you need to activate again.
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 17:07
Yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean you need to activate again.
daft really, providing you have only one copy on one machine at one time.. So I wonder what happens then if you have to replace a faulty motherboard?
Admiral Huddy
03-01-2007, 17:09
You activate again.
but then that's breaking the license agreement is it not? :undecided:
sorry noob'ness :D
The specifics were actually removed from the EULA I believe. You're right in that you cant install an OEM copy onto another system... but when does one system become another?
If you replace a defective motherboard with an identical replacement, you're OK. If you replace a defective motherboard with one of equivalent specification, you're probably OK. If you upgrade your motherboard, that's a new PC as far as OEM licensing goes.
Moving the PC to a new chassis also counts as an upgrade (even though you probably won't have to re-activate) because you did affix your COA label to the case now, didn't you?
I had to ring up and activate when I changed the hard drive (and went from IDE to SATA, wether that clinched it or not I don't know!). The bulk of that system is now installed with MCE 2005, but the case, cd drives, graphics etc. have been reused with an older motherboard. Bet I need to reactivate when I get around to putting it back on! This is for XP home OEM.
Those prices certainly are good.
However £0 for Vista Ultimate from my work's MSDN was still cheaper :p
I've stuck it on a spare partition, and keep running out of time to have a play with it. One thing I've noticed is that it runs fairly quickly once it's all settled in, so I'm quite pleased.
It won't be on my main machine until well into this year however, there just isn't enough program compatibility yet.
£0 from my works MSDN works for me as well.
Haven't bothered installing it yet. It's too slow on my VMWare box, so I'm going to save it for the new one (if they ever agree to pay for it - I don't hold out any hope).
Admiral Huddy
01-02-2007, 10:14
Interesting article here re DX9 games running in vista.. XP just out performs vista by a small margin. I'm sure this mainly due to driver support and the new unified architecture.
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6164940/index.html
Unitl DX10 games appear, it's not really conclusive enough to determine if the £300+ DX card is worth the cash.
I'm quite interested in the KMDF and UMDF features of Vista which give give greater stability to the system.
Looks like we're not getting it on our MSDN yet, although a software package did arrive today so that could be it. I'll find out later.
LeperousDust
01-02-2007, 14:24
£299 for ultimate 32/64bit DVD, yeah :cool: I know ultimate has *everything* on the disc, but what is *everything* over premium? (Yes can't be arsed checking, one of you mentioned this above, and you're right) If i search for vista, the results are mad atm because of its release...
Ooh just noticed Vista Business appear on my Uni MSDN.
Although admittedly I'm perfectly happy with XP and not really sure if it's worth changing even for free.
I've been running Vista Business and Office 2007 for a week or so now. User access control has been switched off already (though I'll put it back on at some point to see if it's annoying me just because I'm poking about everywhere), and it seems to have affected my battery life a little. Could be my imagination but Aero will be using the GPU more so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
It's too wrapped in cotton wool from a remote support point of view. No useful imformation (to a support desk) is surfaced to the user when things go wrong (VPN and other network connections being the obvious examples), and interfaces like the event viewer have been changed from functional to, based on early impressions anyway, more confused and cluttered interfaces.
It is pretty though. Chugged a bit after the install while it built the search index (I imagine) but running quick enough now it seems (haven't noticed any slow downs), and I do like that unified start menu search thing a great deal (integrated desktop search basically).
Admiral Huddy
01-02-2007, 15:06
£299 for ultimate 32/64bit DVD, yeah :cool: I know ultimate has *everything* on the disc, but what is *everything* over premium? (Yes can't be arsed checking, one of you mentioned this above, and you're right) If i search for vista, the results are mad atm because of its release...
ultimate is a conbination of the home pr and enterprise editions. So it supports Unix, 128gb memory in 64 bit mode, webserver tools, file encryption, remote access etc. Not really something the home user should bother about to be honets. You are fine with the premium.
and it seems to have affected my battery life a little. Could be my imagination but Aero will be using the GPU more so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
Lots of reports of that, so doesn't surprise me.
I'm still not convinced though, even though I can get it for nowt. :)
So it supports Unix
Interestingly put ;D
It has a unix subsystem designed to ease the transition from Unix to Windows, but I imagine it's usefulness is limited to basic CLI utilities written in very portable code.
The big thing Vista has which the end user will be interested in is, of course, Media Center.
Does it also still have the OS/2 compatibility? Also limited to compatible (i.e. very old) CLI code? :)
I've not seen it mentioned anywhere you know, so I would suggest probably not.
Admiral Huddy
01-02-2007, 16:18
Interestingly put ;D
It has a unix subsystem designed to ease the transition from Unix to Windows, but I imagine it's usefulness is limited to basic CLI utilities written in very portable code.
The big thing Vista has which the end user will be interested in is, of course, Media Center.
So it doesn't run Unix aps through some sort of emulation process?
No, there's no emulation, it natively executes the code. Though as I said, it's support will be limited to basic, older code rather than anything new. Certainly nothing that uses X anyway.
Wow the 64bit ultimate edition is only 129 quid.... still not tempted by it though.. I'm quite happy with my windows x64 edition - though it does have some incompatibility issues with some things :(
And they'll be worse on Vista, at least for a time.
The only thing I have issues with is CD burning (nero - but I've fixed that now) and finding drivers for printers and web cams, also running XP type of programs that specifically require 32bit - it rejects the 64 bit side of things.
Other than that I love my x64 version of windows - never blue screened on me at all. :cool:
Must say I've never had any trouble running 32bit apps - what's giving you grief?
The driver issue is part of the deal at the moment really :/
mainly some old school games :p
Stan_Lite
01-02-2007, 20:57
I'm running X64 on one rig at the moment. Never had any problems except a few driver issues to start with. Doesn't really do much now though, it's basically a Folding rig only (running the SMP client on Ubuntu on a virtual machine in VMware with no issues).
Stan :)
Oh yes I need to get it folding on my ubuntu VM machine - I need to work out how to install F@H on it! :p
As I said, bar a few old legacy games, x64 is spot on - noticeably faster than standard xp.
Stan_Lite
01-02-2007, 22:35
Oh yes I need to get it folding on my ubuntu VM machine - I need to work out how to install F@H on it! :p
The following guide to setting up the SMP client is pinched from one of Rich99s posts in the other place - which was in turn, pinched from the Folding forums.
9. INSTALL folding at home SMP from typing the following:
mkdir -p ~/folding/FAH
cd ~/folding/FAH
wget http://folding.stanford.edu/release/FAH_SMP_Linux.tgz
tar xzf FAH_SMP_Linux.tgz
GET IT RUNNING WITH:
./fah5
It's easy - even a complete Linux noob like me can do it :p
Happy Folding :)
Stan :)
Well, as long as that's a dual core Ubuntu VM machine anyway. ;)
will gill
01-02-2007, 22:50
office 2007 is the shizzle btw :)
I still don't think I could cope without my menu bar. I had IE7 for a while, decided I didn't like it (even with various hacks to put the menu back in the 'right' place) and promptly binned it.
One more reason I actually don't want to go to Vista.
I don't think Microsoft 'get' the whole idea of people who dont like using the mouse - even though they claim accessibility. :)
I still don't think I could cope without my menu bar.
One more reason I actually don't want to go to Vista.
I don't think Microsoft 'get' the whole idea of people who dont like using the mouse - even though they claim accessibility. :)
:undecided:
Vista has Menu Bars if you want them
Admiral Huddy
02-02-2007, 13:30
I'm still running 32-bit XP.. Never seen any need for 64 bit.
Article thingy (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm)
Vista's legal fine print includes extensive provisions granting Microsoft the right to regularly check the legitimacy of the software and holds the prospect of deleting certain programs without the user's knowledge.
Eep
:undecided:
Vista has Menu Bars if you want them
Office '07 doesn't though.
LeperousDust
02-02-2007, 15:55
But they've proven you don't really need the menu bars in Office '07, once you've become half accustomed to the layout it really is much easier to use. Its just something new...
...unless you prefer to keep your hands on the keyboard.
Being a shell monkey, I sympathise with Mark. Not that it bothers me in Office 2007 though, I dont do enough funky shizzle to warrant being in the menus all the time (macro/vba stuff for example).
I've been running Vista Business and Office 2007 for a week or so now. User access control has been switched off already (though I'll put it back on at some point to see if it's annoying me just because I'm poking about everywhere), and it seems to have affected my battery life a little. Could be my imagination but Aero will be using the GPU more so it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
It's too wrapped in cotton wool from a remote support point of view. No useful imformation (to a support desk) is surfaced to the user when things go wrong (VPN and other network connections being the obvious examples), and interfaces like the event viewer have been changed from functional to, based on early impressions anyway, more confused and cluttered interfaces.
It is pretty though. Chugged a bit after the install while it built the search index (I imagine) but running quick enough now it seems (haven't noticed any slow downs), and I do like that unified start menu search thing a great deal (integrated desktop search basically).
I believe the aero interface is rendered entirely by the GPU.
Being a shell monkey, I sympathise with Mark. Not that it bothers me in Office 2007 though, I dont do enough funky shizzle to warrant being in the menus all the time (macro/vba stuff for example).
I'm most certainly a shell monkey. Why do something in Windows Explorer when the Command Prompt is perfectly good?
Probably comes from my *nix/oldskool computer background. :)
I don't like it when they force you to use newfangled GUIs, and I like it even less when they decide to rewrite those GUIs just for kicks.
Haven't tried Office 2007 though so I don't know for sure. I did try IE7 - it got uninstalled. I've tried the Vista Betas too (though to be fair, I put them down more because of VMWare slowness than because of the GUI).
the Command Prompt is perfectly good?
... after you put UnxUtils in path somewhere :D
I use cygwin, to the same end. :D
Anyway, I came here to post this, which adequately demonstrates why I won't be upgrading...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6407419.stm
Yes, I have one of those 'broken' soundcards. I've been looking to upgrade for a while, but though I might get better sound, I'll lose functionality, so not yet. I wonder how many other devices I'll lose as well.
I'm about to (this weekend) upgrade one of my boxen to more-than-Vista capable. Unfortunately for Microsoft, that box will be running Linux. ;D
I've read a few articles like that. A few of our clients have ordered Vista running pcs... I'm NOT looking forward to supporting it at the moment. Not at all.
Luddites!
I'm going to be putting together a killer system in a month or so and it'll have Vista on it.
When I can afford it I'm getting myself a Mac. :cool:
Mohinder
02-03-2007, 16:12
When I can afford it I'm getting myself a Mac. :cool:
An intelligent move :D
Vista is just MS *starting* to catch up with Mac OS.
semi-pro waster
02-03-2007, 16:17
When I can afford it I'm getting myself a Mac. :cool:
Will you also be getting crayons for all written correspondence to keep it simple?
I am of course only joking, I have nothing against Macs other than a deeply ingrained and irrational prejudice which makes me refuse to have anything to do with any Apple products. :)
It's funny I know a few people like that who just don't like Apple products, in a similar vein I know a lot of people who are also like that about Microsoft. I think I'd have to have both systems for a while for sure, or at least run Parallels so I can have some windows frontend. Though I'm getting very much more into my linux at the moment, so I'm not 100% dependent on Windows anymore, problem is so much is reliant on Windows now that you can't get away from it!
I had a play with some Macs whilst in SF and I found it SO easy to use and a lot quicker and generally looked 100% better too. I'm willing to give Vista a go, in 6 months time or so when it's better supported.
semi-pro waster
02-03-2007, 17:28
I think my main problem with Macs and Mac OS stems from when I was in school which was several years ago admittedly, I'm sure it has improved greatly but it always felt like style over substance and that too much was hidden away from me although partly no doubt due to school policies.
Basically like I say, irrational prejudice which is why I normally don't try to persuade people against Macs, they are good at what they do, I just don't like them. :)
Yes I used to feel the same. I hated macs owing to my experience at school. The whole "lack of control" thing. But I've now gone past the stage of wanting to change every bit of it. I think Mac OSX is now fairly customisable and looks funky as hell. Furthermore it has widgets, which frankly are a work of genius.
When you get your Mac, install CoD2 and then try and aim down the sight.
Then report back ;)
Furthermore it has widgets, which frankly are a work of genius.
You mean like Windows has had for a few years now and recently been bought by Yahoo? :p
http://widgets.yahoo.com/
Well I don't play computer games much anymore, if I did, I'd use my XP box :p
You mean like Windows has had for a few years now and recently been bought by Yahoo? :p
http://widgets.yahoo.com/
Oooh I didn't know that! Bah, still the Mac does it better ;) As I said though I couldn't live without XP at least for a few years anyway. :)
Oooh I didn't know that! Bah, still the Mac does it better ;)
Course it does ;) :p
Handy site there though :)
Yeah definitely, thanks. :)
Np :)
Oh and for the record, I'm not a mac hater :p Just can't resist being devil's advocate :embarassed:
You're a naughty girl, that's all Jen. A very naughty girl... :p
I can be :cool: Depends who asks ;)
Regarding the 'simplicity' of OS X, the interesting thing is that Vista tries to bestow the same simplicity on the PC world. Only, as the article points out, it fails, miserably.
I've used Vista, and will probably have to continue to use it, as we're supposed to be supporting it at work (though we don't right now, even though we claim we do), but it'll be locked away inside a VMWare virtual machine, and there it'll stay.
Mohinder
02-03-2007, 18:42
Regarding the 'simplicity' of OS X, the interesting thing is that Vista tries to bestow the same simplicity on the PC world. Only, as the article points out, it fails, miserably.
Exactly. People sometimes try and act like the simplicity of the OS is a bad thing, and I really don't know how that works... well, it doesn't.
Mac OS just might as well not be there, allowing you to better concentrate on your work. I don't know why some people seem to think it's really cool for everything to be more work than it should be. That's just stupid.
They might as well say 'hah, you use your legs as they are? I put myself in leg irons before I walk anywhere, that makes me much more leet'
semi-pro waster
02-03-2007, 19:10
Exactly. People sometimes try and act like the simplicity of the OS is a bad thing, and I really don't know how that works... well, it doesn't.
Mac OS just might as well not be there, allowing you to better concentrate on your work. I don't know why some people seem to think it's really cool for everything to be more work than it should be. That's just stupid.
I wasn't actually talking about OS X if it was my comments that prompted the posts by you and Mark, I've only used it very briefly when browsing on a Macbook which is why I specifically said that it was a long time ago that I had used a Mac (OS 8 and 9 I think).
I don't see how XP is more work than it should be, it just works 99% of the time but I still feel like I have more control over what the OS does currently than I ever did when using Mac OS. Vista is trying to simplify also as noted, I'm not sure that it is step forward for me personally although I think it will get more users than ever before due to the simplicity (providing it works). I am probably one of the few who still have fond memories of Windows 98 which was probably the last Microsoft OS that went to work on the explicit understanding that you can do anything you want (more or less) but if you knacker it, you've had your chips.
I'm happy to accept I am in a minority on this one but like I've said it is an unreasoning prejudice, nothing more and nothing less.
I still use the command prompt on Windows. And I do exactly the same on OS X as well. Trust me, the first thing I do on any new XP install is pin the command prompt shortcut to the start menu. I'll do the same on Vista too, closely followed by re-enabling the run box. Simplicity be damned.
If there's such a thing as a control freak where Windows is concerned, I'm probably a model case.
On the surface, Vista "feels" absolutely miles quicker than XP on the same hardware. I have an XP box sat next to my Vista box and I genuinely prefer Vista.
Initially I didnt think it would be that great but it suprised me. I have had the odd blip with hardware, but no great difficulty resolving it unlike certain problems I have had under Linux etc. I dont see why so many people need to scream and shout about it.
If it works for you, great. If you prefer something else, use that.
Re-enable the run menu? Its windows+r, for those who use the keyboard ;) Why press more keys/use the mouse?
Ah, well then, since I use Windows+R anyway, I'm sorted.
Vista has been slower for me. Every time. Most of that is probably down to buggy RC builds and using it in crippled VMs though. I've not had chance to install the final version yet.
Well in the last version of VMWare I installed, it did say the longhorn support was experimental! So combining that with your RC builds of Vista, its no surprise it wasnt as smooth as it could have been!
Install a final build properly and have a play before you give it down the banks :)
I have a full copy of ultimate that I have on my testbed at work - it's "ok" - I'll be happier in 6 months down the line I think when it's more supported and it's been fixed more. However I am in no rush to move to it as I was to move from 98 to XP. However it took a lot of arm twisting to move from 2000 to XP.
However it took a lot of arm twisting to move from 2000 to XP.
I still have two boxes here running Windows 2000 with no need to upgrade.
But I've been bitten by the Vista bug, I'm really enthusiastic about it, and yes, I have seen it and played with it. Seemed much smoother and nicer than FisherPrice Windows. Sorry. Windows XP!
I still have two boxes running Windows NT (I think Microsoft might want to shoot me). :)
I suspect that as a result of the office changes I'll be inheriting new hardware and retiring these two though.
I've got clients still with NT4 server :eek:
The final build of Vista is miles faster than the RC's Mark, even in VM. Though it really does need physical hardware, it still doesnt virtualise as well as any other OS I've tried (under VMWare, Xen or qemu).
Aye. I've been running XP in a VM most of the week, and it's perfectly useable. That's my benchmark really.
I have moved the VMs onto the laptop though, which probably counts for a fair bit, even though the laptop is only a year newer.
Is the 64bit edition worth getting for 64bit enabled CPUs?
PeterNem
03-03-2007, 16:19
I've been running Vista Ultimate (32bit version) at home for a month or so now (*hugs MSDN subscription*).
I would have gone for the 64 bit version, but my understanding is that it will not let you install a driver that is unsigned by WHQL, which at this early stage of it's life would probably lead to problems with drivers (particularly for wireless adapters and the suchlike).
The 32 bit version warns you that a driver is unsigned but lets you just click on anyway.
I still have two boxes running Windows NT (I think Microsoft might want to shoot me). :)
A certain large retail bank that I am doing some work for still have some NT4 kit. I think the figure quoted was that so far they've paid MS £40m to continue supporting it for them. I think it's a pretty safe bet that they're looking at migrating it to something that still has support!
Well, NT4 was well used in ATMs a few years ago. NatWest in particular. Lloyds were somewhat behind the curve as well, with IBM PS/2 machines in branches until at least a few years ago. :eek:
I had access to a very large percentage of the back office code for a certain retail bank a few years ago. I had to sign NDA for that, so I'm not going to say which one. :)
I would have gone for the 64 bit version, but my understanding is that it will not let you install a driver that is unsigned by WHQL
I believe it can be done, but you have to use a menu option at startup (F8 jobbie), and you'd need to select it every time you boot... so not convenient really.
Will, only if you're sure all your hardware is both supported in 64bit, and Vista. Otherwise not, because you'll be waiting for a while.
I don't think you even need to do that. When I install Nvidia beta drivers it just warns you when you install them and asks if you want to stop the installation or continue.
Daz, I'm not bothered about 64bit version really, this is just for my own edification really rather than actually using it for myself. :)
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