View Full Version : Cannon Fodder
Matblack
06-02-2007, 11:13
You're average soldier just can't win can they?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007060131,00.html
You are a pilot who suspects the target you have been designated is a friendly, what do you do, you could refuse to fire on it and get crucified by your superiors and possibly court marshalled or you can pull the trigger and possibly get court marshalled for a blue on blue incident. Surely this can't be right, the person who called the target has to be to blame or its put down as an honest mistake.
I'm not sure what the upshot of this incident was whether there was any action taken against anyone but one thing is for sure it highlights the lack of communication between coilliation forces and reinforces that this sort of conflict should be handled by a single command system not joint commands. Not that we should be there at all but surely if we are there we should be talking to our allies.
Stupid stupid stupid!
MB
Justsomebloke
06-02-2007, 13:07
Hardly the first time is it though.
The Yanks love to shoot friendlys even there own, they will even open up on a wooden house with American kids and women in it and that is on there own soil against there own countrymen.
I hate how trigger happy they are and how they always seem to get away with it.
In my opinion if there is any doubt at all then Don't fire. The vehicles they shot up were not even attacking anything ffs. What is clear to me is that Yank jets are flying around shooting the bejesus out of anything that moves.
It is really hard to remain friendly towards the yanks when they shoot our dudes and shoot there own women and kids.
killerkebab
06-02-2007, 16:25
Are intelligence personnel held accountable for bad intel in situations like these at all?
Looks like whoever Manilla Hotel is (Marine ATC) is the one that's screwed.
He gave under confidence an all clear to friendlies.
The pilots (IMO) are completely blameless here.
They did thier job, they did it well. It's thier ATC's and thier intel that screwed the pooch there.
I love how The Sun's labelling the pilot. I wish The Sun would just shutup shop and FO.
We showed Matty’s widow Susan the video of the attack, and she said: “Finally I am seeing my husband die at the hands of two imbeciles.” She added: “I am really grateful to The Sun for exposing this.
Wow...that's great. Bigup the sun!
http://forums.ove*************.uk/showthread.php?t=17689471
I think I'm about done over there.
Shackley is a first-rate troll, and dirtydog isn't a whiter-than-white character either.
I don't know about the involvement of UK ATCs in that situation, but otherwise you are of course factually correct. Unfortunately they have a very long history of USA-bashing on that forum.
Justsomebloke
08-02-2007, 02:03
I never posted in that thread but did post the above.
In my defence i had just watched the documentary about WACO and the branch Davidians.
No excuse though i would like to apologise to Mickey D our friendly Yankee BD member and hope he doesn't take any personal offence from my uneducated outburst/outbursts.
I have nothing against individual Americans at all or any other country it is just nice for us English to have a moan about something, we like to moan.
On a side note i had a lovely telephone conversation with this Yankee women who rang me from the states today, business of course but you can't help flirting a bit can you even if it is down the phone.
Anyways Sorry Mate :)
ps.
Whose gonna come and tell me i got his name wrong then ? Damn my borked memory ;D
Who's gonna come and tell me i got his name wrong then ? Damn my borked memory ;D
No worries mate. No apologies necessary. And you got my name correct, too!! :D
Hee, hee, hee!!! :evil:
http://forums.ove*************.uk/showpost.php?p=8727160&postcount=73
That's a sight to behold. :eek:
Hope you aren't going to leave though. At least some of us appreciate your contribution and not all of us bash the USA for the hell of it (GWB excepted).
Von Smallhausen
08-02-2007, 14:15
I have my reservations about George Bush and the forign policy of the United States as I also have reservations about the same of Tony Blair and the foreign policy of th United Kingdom.
The US military machine is the most awesome on Earth and one US supercarrier alone weighs more than our HMS' Ark Royal, Invincible and Illustrious aircraft carriers' put together. The technology they have is equally awesome but with that technology and the United Kingdom being it's closest ally then surely a transponder / recognition system can be devised to stop such incidents ?
To die at the hands of friendly fire is just tragic beyond comprehension.
The United States as a whole though, I have had two fantastic holidays there and have visited New York, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Yosemite National Park, Death Valley and San Francisco and it remains the most fascinating place I have ever been and the people were just fantastic. I hope to get there again someday.
Please don't get me wrong, if it's needed, I'll be the first to step up to the plate and bash the **** out of my own government. When it's needed.
But there are times that a lot of people take it too far and under the wrong circumstances.
I have been and always will be the champion of the underdog. I will fight tooth and nail against popular opinion if I know I'm right. But God help you if I'm fighting for you and you bite me in the ass.
Hence why I wasn't all that vocal on the subject until after Matblack posted that link with the cockpit transcript. I didn't have enough info to formulate an argument or even an opinion on it until then. But that transcript is rather damning of the ATC's and pretty much frees the pilots of any wrongdoing. They did thier job, they did it well. Disappointingly they did it on L/Cpl Hull's vehicle. Not out of malice or improper training, but due to poor intel (which there's a high chance of happening in that area).
Gotta' go, be back in a couple hours.
The US are trialing SOCOM now aren't they?
Von Smallhausen
08-02-2007, 23:14
The US are trialing SOCOM now aren't they?
Can you be more specific ?
SOCOM has a few meanings wthin the US military.
Did you see the report about this on the news last night? They interviewed a friend of the pilot and I'm expecting him to come on and stick up for the guy (who I think is pretty much blameless). Not only does he do this, he then starts slagging us off :angry:
Tells us that we should just do what we're told. Started going on about WW2 and how we should have taken our thumbs out of our mouths and done something about it. I was ****ing fuming.
****.
Justsomebloke
09-02-2007, 12:30
There are ignorant people all round the world mate it is not just confined to English forums ;)
To be honest i live by the fact that 98% are ignorant head up there arse kind of people. In my 41 years i have met about 1 in a hundred sensible people, the rest are either retarded, ignorant or just plain stupid.
I know there are ignorant people about mate. But if I'm trying to convince another country that my country's pilot is blameless, I'd try not to insult them whilst doing it :)
May I be the first to apologise for my ignorant arse of a countryman? *hangs head in shame*
No need to apologise mate. There are idiots everywhere, we have plenty ;D
Can you be more specific ?
SOCOM has a few meanings wthin the US military.
I was on about the system which identifies friendlies/eventually enemies.
I was on about the system which identifies friendlies/eventually enemies.
Oh, you mean IFF (Identify Friend or Foe)? ;)
You can have all the hi tech gadgetry in the world, but if your intel is pants (as it was in this case) you will always be worse off.
Im not saying the pilot is blameless, but why wasn't there up to date information on the position of troops? I mean we live in an age of GPS which will give you accuracy down to inches.
killerkebab
18-04-2007, 22:51
You can have all the hi tech gadgetry in the world, but if your intel is pants (as it was in this case) you will always be worse off.
Im not saying the pilot is blameless, but why wasn't there up to date information on the position of troops? I mean we live in an age of GPS which will give you accuracy down to inches.Unfortunately we don't live in an age in which we trust everyone with the locations of the troops. I assume compartmentalisation is to blame here, though I am far from an expert in military strategy :)
dirtydog
12-09-2008, 08:04
Shackley is a first-rate troll, and dirtydog isn't a whiter-than-white character either.
I don't know about the involvement of UK ATCs in that situation, but otherwise you are of course factually correct. Unfortunately they have a very long history of USA-bashing on that forum.
WTF? :huh:
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