View Full Version : DSLR or not
I've been considering which camera to get next for about the last year, but not having holidays or the likes to go on has meant no urgency. Now, that's changed. I have under three weeks.
My last two cameras have been Sony - specifically DSC-F717 and DSC-P200. The fact that I had an F717 shows I'm not averse to big cameras, but there is of course a time and a place for compacts. The P200 is fine and I'll be keeping it, the F717 is long in the tooth and frankly, though it was top of the range in it's day, I'm generally much happier with the output from the P200.
Continuing with the theme, my next camera was going to be a DSC-H5 (Bridge camera, 12x zoom, same as the one owned by Mejinks). Three months ago I would have got it, no question. That's changed now the camera has been superceded by the DSC-H9. Unfortunately I can't wait for that, as it's not due to hit the shops until about a month after I get back. I can of course still get the H5, but now I know it's an old model, I'm not sure I want to.
So, that brings me to what else. I do have a habit of trying to push cameras as far as they will go, and sometimes beyond, with the inevitable disappointment that follows. But, given my eyesight, I'm never going to be that good and I'm usually going to be relying on the camera to do some of the work (particularly focusing). Even so, I'm definitely not averse to use of manual settings - and regularly do use them, even on the compact.
My primary use is going to be holiday shots, and for those alone I'd be happy with most cameras, but I do like going to shows, sporting events and airshows, and those are where the problems start. I've never had a camera that's produced even close to satisfactory output from airshows, and while I've done better at sporting events and shows, I know there is much room for improvement. I'll certainly be going to Busch Gardens and SeaWorld while on holiday, and I'll certainly want to be taking action shots while there.
This is what brings me well out of the compact territory. I thought a bridge camera would be a happy medium, but now I'm not so sure given their poor low light performance. This is why I've been considering a 'low-end' DSLR. Problem is, I really don't want to spend several thousand pounds on a camera and lenses. I certainly don't mind spending £600-£1,000 though, if a camera is going to satisfy my needs for more than the typical two years I'm getting out of existing cameras. Buying two non-DSLR cameras would get me well into the £600 territory so it's economically justifiable.
I've asked a similar question on other forums, but as the majority don't know me, I got the answer I expected. I need a more candid answer from those who do know me. As you know, I reserve the right to make my own decision at the end, but that doesn't mean the comments aren't welcomed or don't help me find the right decision - particularly as I have an extreme lack of knowledge in this area.
Matblack
02-04-2007, 14:27
In your situation I would not go DSLR.
Yes that are great but you MUST compose the picture via the viewfinder, there is no way to preview on the LCD.
Also to get the kind of zoom you would be looking for with a 'bridge' you are going to pay a lot of money and have a very large lens. Because of the smaller sensor on a bridge you will need a shorter lens to get a similar zoom, the zoom on the S5900 is 10x and its not a very big camera.
As for low light performance then yes a DSLR will perform better because of the larger CCD but poor light performance is also a factor of very high pixel count CCDs, the more pixel density the more noise at low light tends to be the way it works.
I bought a bridge, it gives me more flexibility than a compact, it cost £220 and I physically can't spend a lot of money buying new lens, but it will give me a chance to use a camera which feels and performs like a DSLR. If I find I am using the manual functions then I will upgrade to a DSLR in a year or so. The S5900 has the best low light performance for its price point, better than its bigger brother. Yes it has its restrictions but thats why its a 'bridge', a bridge between compacts and DSLRs and sometimes its a good idea to take the bridge rather than try to jump to the other side of the river!
MB
I've found that I tend to use the LCD for static images and the viewfinder for moving ones - the LCD just isn't fast or accurate enough for moving images. I do routinely test the viewfinder on any camera I'm considering purchasing and reject any I can't use, but it's certainly my biggest concern particularly for things like focusing where I will need (and probably not be able to see) fine detail.
I'm inclined to agree with you Matt - a bridge camera was my first choice and probably still is, but given the limitations I've hit with cameras in the past I don't want to end up being disappointed again.
Either way, this still leaves me with the 'which one?' problem. I do like cropping stuff so megapixels are good, but I also don't like noise and would like low light performance, which, as you rightly point out, is the major bane of high-megapixel sensors.
Flibster
02-04-2007, 15:28
The newer Olympus Dslr's offer live view.
E-330, E-410 and E-510 have it iirc.
I know that I could walk into my local shop and get the E-330 with the 14-45mm lens and an additional Sigma 55-200mm lens and walk out with change from £500.
It's not the greatest camera in the world though, and it's not the best designed camera either. It's a bit boxy.
The E-410 and E-510 look much better designed.
Simon/~Flibster
No - I'm using US release dates for that very reason. SonyStyle is reporting May 11th or June 9th, depending on model. I don't know if any of the other channels will get them any quicker.
Thanks for the idea though - I was hoping. :(
I'm going to start touring the local camera shops tomorrow (even if I end up buying online I want to have the cameras in my hands first), so I'll be on MSN, in the CB, and here tonight to bounce ideas around. :)
The thing is if you bought a DSLR for £600-£1000 you will need a good telephoto for airshows. Now a good telephoto is going to cost you more than what you paid for the camera. I think a bridge camera with nice low light performance and a huge zoom would be your best bet.
Aye, that's what I suspected on the lens front. I can get an 18-135 kit lens for not much money, but what it'll be like at the telephoto end I'm not sure about, and even an average bridge camera has four times the zoom. I'm firmly back in bridge camera range.
So, that leaves the 'what to get' question. In the past I've tended to rely in places like dpreview for reviews. They tend to compare them with DSLR equipment for image quality and thus almost always rip them apart on that aspect which doesn't give me much confidence given that it's image quality I'm after.
Looking at the Fuji models, my only reluctance is with the xD cards. They do seem to tick most boxes though - e.g. RAW support (something I know the existing Sony models lack).
Other than Matt's suggestion, any others to consider? I know there's the obvious Canon S3 IS, but that's getting a bit old now.
My only thought would be that yes, alright "new" cameras are nice to have but ultimately is it going to make enough difference to you to warrant the extra cost, hassle and delay waiting for it?
I know that realistically, providing I am using the right lens for the job etc etc, a mere 6mp is still to this day absolutely fine for what I use my DSLR for, so heaven knows why you would want more pixels than that in a smaller sensor format.
Agreed. While the Canon S3 IS is "old" its not like its gone bad. My Canon 10D is about 4 years old and only 6.4mp but personally I feel that it will take a better shot than any compact on the market. I can print it to 30x20'' too. The other issue with a new camera is there won't be any reviews. You won't know if they screwed up :)
Agree with that too, nothing wrong with "old" as far as the camera itself goes, any camera is eventually going to be old.
For an experiment, I did some pricing up. Nikon D80 + grip + kit 18-135 + 70-300 VR = £1200. That gives me slightly more at both wide and telephoto than a typical bridge camera (27-450 vs 36-432), but I do understand both lenses are going to be compromises and not the best. As tempting as that is, I still suspect I'd be making a bad choice.
Yep.
Generally speaking, those 70-300 type lenses are cheap telephotos and although I believe the Nikon offering is slightly better than the Canon offering, its still not what you would want to be using at airshows tbh.
If you went DSLR, IMO you would want something like this (Canon though, thats what I know)
EOS30D, 18-55mm kit, battery grip, 100-400L and then if you wanted midrange it'd have to be a 70-200 F4/L. Really, for telephoto there is cack and then there is L glass (with a couple of exceptions).
Problem is that you are then looking at a cost in excess of £2000 all told. Yes its going to be better than a prosumer type camera by some quite considerable margin but factoring in the cost, not only in terms of money but in terms of portability and usability in everyday situations.
MB is a shining example of the latter - in the Pumphouse in Swansea he was there with his camera - it didnt attract any serious attention as a camera, he could just use it. I would imagine out and about its a similar story. You simply cannot get away with that kind of thing with a DSLR. Its immediately obvious you are there with a massive camera stood out like a sore thumb and out and about you just have to learn to deal with getting shouts of abuse from just about everyone under the age of 20 (and a good deal of those over 20!!).
Ultimately (as I am sure you know, but just for completeness here) its not a choice between image quality/zoom/features but a fundamental choice about how you want to progress with your photography as a personal development/lifestyle choice. Do you want it to be something you take along with you just in case or something you set out with to take some good pictures every time, regardless of how impractical that might be?
Having held a D200 I can't help feeling you're totally correct. I needed this thread to properly figure out the pros and cons and it's achieved that. Many thanks for the replies.
The outcome? DSLR isn't for me. There, I do listen sometimes. ;D
Now onto what Bridge camera to get. The Panasonic DMC-FZ8 is a 2007 generation camera that's already out and has reviews etc. My biggest concern with that camera is that the noise reduction tends to be hyperactive. I still like the Sony models despite them being 2006 and they score pretty well. Plus they'll hopefully drop some more in price, so maybe it is worth looking at those again (plus I have compatible batteries, filters, and memory cards already). I do know some camera retailers think of them as I do of the Panasonic though, so it does make me wonder.
List of candidates courtesy Steve's Digicams...
Canon Powershot S3 IS*
Panasonic DMC-FZ50*
Nikon Coolpix S10*
Sony Cybershot H5*
Kodak Easyshare Z612*
Panasonic DMC-FZ7/FZ8*
Fujifilm FinePix S6000fd
Sony Cybershot H2*
Olympus SP-510UZ
Kodak Easyshare P712*
* = has image stabilisation, which I think is a good idea.
and out and about you just have to learn to deal with getting shouts of abuse from just about everyone under the age of 20 (and a good deal of those over 20!!).
People will shout abuse at you just for having a camera?
People will shout abuse at you just for having a camera?
Yep. Shouts of "paedo" and whatnot abound with disappointing regularity :(
I think it's more a case of him being DRZ and having a camera. ;)
But he wouldn't know that ;D
I know more about being me than you think :p
I'm going to go hold a D80 in my hands tomorrow. I'm still far more inclined to not get one, but I'd like to at least hold/play with one before turning it down. I've also been reading more reviews and getting more depressed by comments about noise even in low ISO (whether or not the outcome is a Highly Recommended) - silly me.
People will shout abuse at you just for having a camera?
I've had shouts of "Pedo!", beer thrown in my face, a salad from a car (?!?!), stones thrown at me, and one girl said I was stalking her. I haven't had anything major in a few months though, which is nice. Honestly, who throws a salad?
Haha. That would be ok :)
I behaved. Having held a D40, D80 and a 400D in my hands, I decided I should behave. ;)
I now have beside me one Canon S3 IS.
Congrats :) If you need compact flash cards goto Play (http://play.com). San Disk cards are dirt cheap. Ultra 2 would be fine for the S3.
The S3 takes SD cards dude. :)
I got a 2GB SD card for £20, so I'll not complain. Generic, but seems to be fast enough to handle continuous shots.
PS - Yes, I know I could have got it cheaper both online and duty free, but I'd rather have two weeks to play with it and learn what it can/can't do than learn while on holiday and get the inevitable missed shots that would result (e.g. it took me 5 minutes to realise that you have to actually pull the flash up by hand ;D)
Results are fantastic from the test pictures I've looked at so far.
But I found a stuck pixel. :/
Results are fantastic from the test pictures I've looked at so far.
But I found a stuck pixel. :/
Do a sensor clean, that fixed mine. What it is when you do a sensor clean is the camera resets the pixels in the sensors and sort of reboot them again. Give that a go.
Flibster
04-04-2007, 23:50
I've had shouts of "Pedo!", beer thrown in my face, a salad from a car (?!?!), stones thrown at me, and one girl said I was stalking her. I haven't had anything major in a few months though, which is nice. Honestly, who throws a salad?
While taking some photo's of a local church, I had a pimped black 15year old BMW 318 - blacked out windows drive slowly past, one of the windows wind down, a glass bottle thrown at me and a shout of "Racist white c**t"
All for taking a photo of a church.
Most I get at the moment though is "What the **** are you doing on the floor?"
Simon/~Flibster
Do a sensor clean, that fixed mine. What it is when you do a sensor clean is the camera resets the pixels in the sensors and sort of reboot them again. Give that a go.
I have no idea how to do that. It's going back to the shop in an hour or so anyway.
Shop agreed to replace the camera pretty much without question, so all is good. Just got to wait for them to get one in now (meanwhile I've kept the faulty one for more practice time).
Tysonator
07-04-2007, 13:58
is the camera you were after released in the States yet?? You might be able to get it there ahead of it's UK release and cheaper too. That's what happened with my Canon 400D (or rebel xti!) :p
I love my 400D, I have spent a few years pondering wether or not to get a DSLR, oh boy have I cained using it !
How much did you get the 400D in the USA ?
leowyatt
07-04-2007, 15:39
Kitten got it for just over £400 (iirc) shortly before it was available in the UK :) cheapest we could find in comparison for the same kit was £650. :)
Tysonator
09-04-2007, 21:12
Kitten got it for just over £400 (iirc) shortly before it was available in the UK :) cheapest we could find in comparison for the same kit was £650. :)
That is an amazing price, I can not believe how much we pay in the UK for electical items !
Mark, what do you plan on doing with the DSC-F717?
Mark, what do you plan on doing with the DSC-F717?
I have no plans for it right now. Why? :)
I had the older 515 which I thought was an amazing camera and took amazing pictures.
I have no plans for it right now. Why? :)
Well, my Samsung Digimax 240 is in dire need of a replacement upgrade....
If you ever think on selling it, please let me know in advance so I can plan the bank robbery to pay for it!! :evil:
I'll test it out at some point ASAP and decide if I can part with it. If I come to the conclusion that I can, then I'm heading stateside fairly soon, which would save a bunch on shipping and import fees. I might also be after a favour from a US resident who can order stuff online imminently which might offset that bank robbery as well.
Tysonator
10-04-2007, 21:36
I know, it's stupid. Drives me mad every time we visit the States just how cheap stuff is in comparison.
Next time I go I will have a shopping list ready.
We have not been again as with all extra security it was too much to put up with. When I go on holiday I just want to go, not stand around waiting in ques !
Sorry moan over !
Mark, you can ask Harib0. I have no problem neing the go-between for US orders for you folks.
We didn't have the absolute best time with that order because of a misquote on the weight from the original order point. They said the item was 11 pounds, turned out to be something like 24. Which of course sent the postal rate from my house to the UK out the roof. Which meant the order went parcel post instead of Priority mail, taking almost a month to get there instead of the two weeks it was supposed to.
But I am not adverse to being a drop-shipper for anyone on these forums. It's very easy for me to take something, put it in a different box, and ship it as "used" and "gift" status, which does away with a certain tarrif upon entry to the country.
Hey, it's not quite lying!! If I take the item out of its original box and put one fingerprint on it, it can no longer be considered new now, can it? ;)
I was originally going to have to order from a US-only company (I suspect they'd dislike a non-US credit card). However, I've since found the same item at Amazon, and I already have an account with them. Now I just have to check if I can ship directly to the hotel. If I can, I will. Well, the goods are only of use in the United States and Canada, so I'll not be importing anything of value, right? ;D
I'll certainly bear it in mind for the future though.
Tysonator
11-04-2007, 12:19
What R the rules on shipping from the States ?
Is there an import levy to pay ?
Is the limit some think like £147 ?
£28, or thereabouts, unless it's a gift and customs don't get suspicious.
After that, it's 21% (more if you're unlucky), plus a processing charge (depends on the shipping company).
Don't forget warranty issues. Canon lenses have a worldwide warranty but the cameras don't. I'm glad I got my 30D in the UK as it did break and is in for repairs under the warranty.
I'm not sure if that's true (doesn't match what I was told). What I was told is that if you're a UK resident and buy a UK spec Canon camera from a UK shop, you're covered for breakdown worldwide. If, however, you buy a Canon camera from another country (hello Pixmania), then you might be in for problems.
My S3 IS was a UK spec, so it's in for exchange this afternoon.
Tysonator
11-04-2007, 14:01
I was interested in the import duty on goods, do they appile to mailed / shipped items, and if so how do Inland Revenue customs charge you ?
Warreanty is a big issue will goods purchased aboard and that is a big problem. I like buying CD's & DVD's in the states as there is little to go wrong.
Tysonator
11-04-2007, 20:07
It's unlikely to be an issue for me. I have a US registered address that the item 'lives at' so I'm not too worried ;)
Are you live over in Blighty ?
It's called having family 'over there'. ;)
Import duties apply to imported items - doesn't matter how they get into the country. In the case of posted items, HMRC give the bill to the shipping company and they give it to you (with a handling charge added on top).
Tysonator
12-04-2007, 21:03
It's called having family 'over there'. ;)
Import duties apply to imported items - doesn't matter how they get into the country. In the case of posted items, HMRC give the bill to the shipping company and they give it to you (with a handling charge added on top).
OK, next time I am off to states then I will be careful what I might post back;)
S3 IS exchanged today. Haven't tested for dead pixels yet, but at least it's not showing the same fault the old S3 IS had.
ROFL - I just discovered that there's a whisky shop hidden in the back of the camera shop where I got my S3. There's even a sign up outside and I totally missed it...
http://www.thedramroom.co.uk/
:eek:
Tysonator
21-05-2007, 21:19
I have been using my Canon EOS D400 alot now, a really love using it. Best thing I have purchase in years.
Has any one been on the Canon Seminars ?
vBulletin® v3.7.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.