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View Full Version : Strong economy, I disagree.


Jonny69
07-05-2007, 11:22
We're led to believe that the economy is very strong in this country and on a grand scale it probably is. I'm having increasing concerns on the state of the economy on a smaller, local, more personal level.

About 10 years ago I was having a grown up chat with my dad, I hadn’t yet moved out fully and was partway through university. We were talking finances, I knew he struggled to support the family in the earlier days but by now we were quite well off in a large 5 bedroom house, 2 cars and dad’s toy in the garage. He estimated that the whole household cost about £35K per year to run which covered everything; mortgage, doing up the house, pets, food, petrol, holidays, going out, the lot. It was a good discussion and I remember it well because it gave me probably the best understanding of what life costs. Unfortunately, coupled with some basic A level maths, it has also given me an insight into how screwed up things might be in this country economically.

Around that time I was a sponsored student at Marconi. Their graduate wage was just under £17K which was considered a little under average but it was still a lot of money to bring in when retail jobs were considerably less. I worked there for a year and during holiday times and they were quite clever the way they paid us as students. Our term-time meant that when we worked a whole year we were paid exactly across two financial years, so we were paid exactly the same amount as our tax code across 6 months and thus paid no income tax. That was plenty to rent a studio flat at £35 per week and run a car.

I’m going to apply my maths bit now and get it out the way because it’s important but complicated. It’s how much something increases in price due to inflation. Inflation on average is about 5% in this country, it goes up and down but across any period of time it is 5%. That means £1 next year is £1.05, £1.1025 the next year, £1.158 the next and so on. Across a 10 year period the price of goods should have risen by a factor of approximately 1.6 (or a 60% increase) and theoretically wages should to too so that we don’t start finding everything very expensive. But have they?

Lets have a quick look at those engineering wages. Non-experienced engineers appear to be able to command a £20K starting salary fresh out of university which I make an 18% increase. According to statistics.gov.uk our wages overall were rising at about 3% in 1998 and cycling every 2 years between 3% and 4.5%. Women’s wages have gone up more than men’s but it is still below that 5% inflation. Does that mean we’re getting poorer? Not necessarily because over that period inflation has actually been quite low but we ought to factor in the housing boom as this is what appears to have screwed everything up. 5 years ago a new one bedroom flat in SE London would have set you back about £80K and the prices were rising rapidly. The same flat will now cost you closer to £190K, a whopping 137% increase.

5 years ago Person A is in a position to buy his first place. He earns £25K per year which sees about £1500 in the bank each month. He comfortably bought his own flat with the mortgage repayments coming in at about £530/month so there’s plenty left over for the rest of life like food, saving for a new car, kids in the future, pension etc. Say person B walks in today and buys the flat next door, he does exactly the same job and wages are roughly the same but to live in the same flat as the guy next door he has to find £1250 per month, way over double the mortgage for person A. Suddenly there’s nothing left to put aside for tomorrow, he can’t afford a car when there’s that much going out, he only breaks even every month, can’t afford a pension and kids? Well forget about it, no chance, there is no way he would be able to afford it.

So we have two equal guys doing the same job earning roughly the same amount but one can afford to live comfortably, go on holiday, put plenty away for later and buy a new car every few years while the other has to struggle to get by. You could argue that you need to factor in a second wage today but then you have two people struggling for the same reasons. The couple in no.32 earn the same amount as the couple in no.33 except one is loaded and the other can just about afford to live there.

So what can we do about that? Earn more, that appears to be the way forward but our economy isn’t as straightforward as that. When one earns more one gets taxed more so to actually land noticeably more in the bank one has to earn considerably more. Then to cover that doubled mortgage repayment one would have to be earning nearly double what the guy next door does to be able to lead the same lifestyle.

Say I wanted to live in the same house as my parents did when I was a kid. My dad earned £30K and the house cost £125K in the late 80’s. Mortgage would have set him back about £650 per month which was a lot then but he was earning enough to cover that. When the house was sold a couple of years ago it went for £455K, below market rate but still netting them £300K for just living there. Today the house next door is on the market at £520K and I am roughly the same age now as he was when he bought it. If I were to buy that house today I would have to be able to find nearly £4000 per month to pay the mortgage, they say that you should only spend about 1/3 of your income on rent or mortgage so I would have to be earning over 120K to be able to afford that. It’s clear then that young people will never live the same lifestyle ad their parents did and it is only set to get worse.

Is that the sign of a strong economy? I’m not convinced. But next time the young guy in the office says he has no money at the end of the month just bear that in mind, as he probably didn’t pour it all down his throat in the pub.

Nutcase
07-05-2007, 12:29
Can't say I disgree with anything you've said. Almost the same position as you (except it was my dad, not me that was a marc apprentice!).

LeperousDust
07-05-2007, 13:13
This is going to concern me in a few years, and yes i entirely agree with what you say...
I seem to remember my dad saying he bought his first house (they've only moved once thereafter) in cash :shocked: For about 19k, hey it was 40 years ago though, but still!

Matblack
07-05-2007, 13:49
We have to remember that there is more to the economy than house prices, the issue with this country is that we only have a finite and limited amount of room for new housing so house prices are likely to increase.

What we don't have is enough affordable housing. I forsee a Tokyo style situation evolving where people live in much smaller housing and younger people have to moderate their expectations of a first house and the government have to start implementing/ suplementing the building of affordable housing. If this doesn't happen I can see a big reduction on home ownership in the UK and a huge rise in renting. :(

MB

Fayshun
07-05-2007, 13:57
I laugh when they build 200k "Starter" homes.

Actually I cry...

Von Smallhausen
07-05-2007, 14:01
And thank you Gordon Brown for high taxation and the abolition of mortgage tax relief as well as tax relief on other things.

It is appreciated.

Matblack
07-05-2007, 14:09
But surely the housing market is a supply and demand market removed from the economy, the fact that there is so much competition for property just shows how much money there is in the economy.

Unfortunatly the way we structure our families these days (people staying single longer and spliting up) we need more and more housing and whilst people CAN afford the asking prices for property the prices will continue to rise.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I don't think the issues are due to problems with the economy. :/

MB

Jonny69
07-05-2007, 14:25
I was actually shocked at how much the population had grown since I was a kid. It was about 52 million when I was at school and today it's someting like 62 million. That goes a long way to explain where all these people have come from when the population is up by a fifth. That alone will put some serious strain on the housing situation.

Mark
07-05-2007, 14:29
Matt's right - while demand continues to exceed supply in the housing market, prices are only going in one direction - up. The problem we have is that a lot of that demand is coming from buy-to-let and people buying up places to sell on at a profit. Case in point around here - our little development has 44 houses/flats, and I know one couple owns at least three of them so far. Why? Because it's an investment and I'll bet the rental costs cover most of the mortgage payments anyway.

Mark
07-05-2007, 14:45
Yeah, true, it isn't nearly as good as it once was, but I'll bet a lot of those buy-to-let types are still holding on to the property they got 5 years ago as at least in the majority of cases prices are still going up faster than inflation.

I'm expecting a few interest rate rises on the near horizon, and although it'll take a few months for those to 'bite', we might see something of a reversal. I feel sorry for those who stretched themselves to near breaking point and don't have fixed rate mortages. This year is likely to hurt - lots.

Del Lardo
07-05-2007, 14:45
I remember reading an article in The Times a few years back which went into quite a lot of detail of how my generation will be the first one in many generations to be worse off than their parents.

Thinking back to when I left school I never thought at the age of 26 I'd be earning enough to be coughing up 40% tax but equally so I never thought that getting on the housing market would be so difficult. I freely admit that this isn't just down to the cost but also due to me wanting to run a sports car and prefering to rent in a nice area to buying in a **** area. Despite this the fact that my first properly that I hope to buy in a years time will be close on £180k for a similar flat to one my mate bought back in 1999 for £80k and that I find really hard to stomach. It seems that increasingly in the UK there are people who are well on the property ladder (and I freely admit that many of them will have worked very hard to stay on it) who as a result are in the position to start buying 2nd and 3rd homes to rent out. This puts first time buyers such as myself in an increasingly difficult situation as we are forced to fork out more and more money to keep up with people who are in a more financially stable situation.

Jonny69
07-05-2007, 15:50
And yes, while there is demand prices will go up. But there must come a point when people just can't afford to buy anymore. And what happens then? I mean, i'd like to see the figures for how many people in their 30's now were first time buyers in their twenties, and how many are now.

PS.. shouldn't this be in the serious forum?
Well this is me now, I can't afford to buy and I actually earn quite a lot. I'm at a stage in my life when I really should be thinking about starting a family but I can't afford to and I don't have anywhere permanent to live. However say I was on the breadline with no job and no education I'd have a local authority place handed to me on a plate. That's screwed up in my opinion, it's like being penalised for trying. The sad fact is most people my age who have bought recently have either had some serious help from their folks or inherited.

Oo yes, serious forum, good point...

I remember reading an article in The Times a few years back which went into quite a lot of detail of how my generation will be the first one in many generations to be worse off than their parents.
Yup I saw that one. Kind of amused me a bit when I read it at the time but it's actually turning into a horrible reality.

Zirax
07-05-2007, 18:22
Yup I saw that one. Kind of amused me a bit when I read it at the time but it's actually turning into a horrible reality.

I saw that article and there was a follow up one recently essentially saying:- the current generation of 20ish's are more worse off than their parents, they are the most stressed with both work/student loans/getting a house.

It took a long time for my dad to actually see how bad things are around here. For months he was saying "there is a house for 200k". Yes.... but I can't get a full mortgage on that. In the end my solution was to move in with my sister as by the time I catch up to the market with todays prices.... in a year or so it will be out of reach again.

My dad really can't believe this situation as I earn more than him and yet what I could afford is an awful council flat/house either in Melbourne or off springfield park road (really bad areas). It came down to me sitting down with my folks and showing them the market.... "Would you live in these areas?"
"No"
"Would you like me living there?"
"No"
After crunching raw numbers they all began understanding what is going on. He almost fell of his chair at what our three bed mid terrace is worth, its just insane.

To give you an idea of where I am just moving to, over the road there is a four bed house that looks rather :/ Price.... £275k!! sweet mother :shocked:

edit: In Leeds there are loads of flats sitting empty where the owners have never moved in. They are all sold to people who will sit and wait for their value to increase.

Pebs
07-05-2007, 19:25
I was in the same position. Despite the fact I paid £500 per month rent and a mortgage would have seen me paying around £300-£350 (at the time), they insisted that because I was on a single income and only earned around £45k per year, that I couldn't afford it. Showing them 4 years of rent payments didn't make a bit of difference. Now £45 wouldn't buy me the bathroom in the house I wanted.

...and now they'll offer mortgages for 4x 5x 7x annual incomes!

I'm going to be looking for a mortgage provider to lend me the best part of £202k to take over this place. Best case scenario I'll have an job income of around £24k but my solicitor thinks its doable. Ridiculous!

I'm going to be in the horrible position of relying in my parents estate to see me through my old age.

Fayshun
07-05-2007, 19:28
Me and Lom will probably never be able to afford a mortgage.

Unless we move to Beruit.

:(

Piggymon
07-05-2007, 21:38
I really do feel for people trying to get on the property ladder recently and then also feel very lucky that we are in the postion we are.

I own 60% of Piggypad in Swansea which is worth about £120K and I have a £50K mortgage on it - this is currently rented out to a nice Polish couple and the rent just about covers my mortgage.

Pigmo Pad is worth approx £180/190K and even with the re-mortgage to do it up our mortgage has gone up to £126K so we still have a nice chunk of equity to play with.

A few years ago I got off the property ladder and nearly didn't get back on ! Jamie bought PigmoPad just as it went on the market at a knock down price because of all the work to do.... if it wasn't for us both being lucky with our houses we wouldn't be in the nice position we are in today.

I bought a 3 bed terrace house in Swansea about 7 years ago for £35K. I then split with my partner at the time and though sheer stubborness I bought him out and re-mortgaged for £50k. I couldn't really afford to do so and by burrying my head in the sand I racked up about £30K worth debt - things were very bleak.

My parents had a newsagents at the time and on their property was a small warehouse which was a property in it's own right.

My parents house was on the market at this time but I sold up my place with £25K to spare after paying the mortgage back and planned to use this money to convert the warehouse into Piggypad. My parents would then sign it over to me and I would get a mortgage on it to clear my debts, it would also be a very nice nest egg for them and we would own it 50/50.

Whilst we were waiting for planning permission to convert my parents got an offer on their place, at the full asking price and it had to include the warehouse. I insisted they took it and started looking around to see what I could get .. I was almost in tears :'(

I'd left a nice, roomy 3 bed terrace house and I now had the prospect of living in a pokey, crappy 1 bed flat in not very nice areas :/

Luckily for me the house sale went through and we carrried on as planned. If it wasn't for this lucky situation I would have been off the property ladder with zero hope of getting back on being on my own.

Crikey, bit of a brain dump there .. sorry :embarassed:

Nutcase
08-05-2007, 07:50
There's absolutely no way I could have got my flat without massive help from my parents.

They must have REALLY wanted me out :embarassed:

Jonny69
08-05-2007, 09:06
I totally miswrote that what I was trying to say was that I was on £15k so I was offered x3 that which was £45k per year. Christ, if I'd been on 45k per year I'd have been laughing ;D
There was me thinking about coming round with choccies, flowers and a guitar to sweeten you up.

Gold digger? Me? :D

BBx
08-05-2007, 09:25
OMG I'm not even going to say what I am paying... London is depressing! :/ but this is where my life is atm and I am happy :) so I am not about to embark on a whinge :)

All I will say is that this thread is too serious for GD :p

BB x