View Full Version : Abducted girl
This is prompted by a discussion on another forum principally made up of women. The general opinion seems to be that the parents are entirely to blame for this for leaving their children unattended. My understanding is that they were a roads width away from the apartment, there were baby listening devices but they were out of range. I havent read much about it to be honest, the headlines alone have made my blood run cold, especially todays saying it's likely to be sexually motivated.
Personally, I don't think what the parents did was totally unreasonable. What is it they say, hindsight is always in 20/20 vision or something, but I would have probably done the same, I don't really see it's hugely different to being out in a garden with kids upstairs asleep. There are other parents here, would you have left them?
Whether I agree with their actions or not, I can't begin to imagine the nightmare those poor people are living now, especially with every new sensational headline. Everything crossed for Madelaines quick and safe recovery.
Admiral Huddy
09-05-2007, 17:12
I disagree. Although I see your point Hotels, appartments abroad etc are completely different and with the amount of comings and goings it's difficult to pickout an individual as acting suspicious. Therefore, it's unlikely that anyone would have noticed anything. I do in this case blame the parents for acting inappropriately. They are in a strange place, plenty of strangers around.
(don't smack me for disagreeing with you will you ;) )
From the pictures I've seen, it was more than a roads width apart. But like you, I've not seen or read a whole lot about this so I might be wrong.
I don't think I'd leave my kids that distance away at their age, especially in a foreign country where I don't know the area.
The other thing that's bothering me a little is the way the parents are being treated. It seems that because they're doctors they're being given an easy ride by many. You can bet your life that if it had been Mr and Mrs Chav on the dole with 15 kids there'd have been far greater uproar.
The other things that's bothering me a little is the way the parents are being treated. It seems that because they're doctors they're being given an easy ride by many. You can bet your life that if it had been Mr and Mrs Chav on the dole with 15 kids there'd have been far greater uproar.
That's exactly what I thought.
I don't think I could leave my kids in a situation like that either, especially not in a foreign country.
I hope they manage to find the girl safe and soon.
Piggymon
09-05-2007, 17:57
If I was in the UK then I might have thought about it but abroad ? no chance .. it's an unknown entity.
At least if something happened here you'd be able to call the police right away and speak in your native tongue.
I'm not totally blaming the parents, they must be going through hell right now but I think they made a bad choice. It's not like they were in the hotel bar in the same building they were in a totally seperate part of an open complex !
Really hope they find the little one safe and sound.
I'd certainly be wary, but then I'm wary enough of my own safety never mind anyone else's. I have, for example, observed parents leaving their children while at theme parks - while at SeaWorld last week I saw one mum leave her stroller in the middle of a walkway to go off and find a rubbish bin. Nothing came of it but it's that sort of thing that scares me far more than children in an apartment.
However, would it have been any different if the parents were in the apartment asleep when their child was taken? It's a sad fact that even when at home in the UK children have been taken under those circumstances. There are plenty of sensible precations you can take, but watching over your children 24/7 whether or not on holiday would seem to be impossible.
Would I have left them? - not if there was a babysitting service or drop in creche no. I don't think they're terrible and to blame but I do think they should have been more cautious.
I'm afraid I think it would. Whoever it was knew the parents were not there - probably saw them checking and leaving the kids and came to that baby for that precise reason. The fact that there were 3 and she was the only one taken strikes me they knew who they were going for.
That's entirely possible, in fact, I agree that's the most likely situation. However, that would also suggest some element of premeditation, and if that's the case, then the parents obviously not being there was little more than a convenience (if you're that determined, you'll find a way regardless).
It may have happened anyway, but with an in-complex facility for babysitting/creche, I think they could have been more cautious, as Roberta said.
Can't disagree with that point. Facilities like that are there for good reason and they should be used.
There's a lot in this we don't know - was the person(s) responsible just looking to snatch a child at random, and if so, then why that child and not the other two, or was there some planning to this with that child in particular being the goal.
Either way I'd suggest that blaming the parents doesn't seem appropriate. How many parents here, without the benefit of hindsight, would anticipate their children being snatched while on holiday, and who is to say that a child could not have been snatched from whatever childminding facilities were provided? (I don't argue that it would be less likely, but not impossible)
Dymetrie
09-05-2007, 20:17
There was a discussion in the office today about this. Pretty much everyone is a parent (other than me of course) and everyone agreed that they wouldn't have left their child(ren) like that.
I don't know, chances are (and you can pretty much guarantee this) I'll never know.
I don't think it's completely the fault of the parents. I doubt they were bad 'we don't give a **** about our kids' parents (unlike some I have met) and feel for them as it's an absolutely disgusting situation they are now in.
I am inclined, to some extent, to blame the society we currently live in which seems to have created people who I wouldn't even class as part of the human race. I mean, I know that I'm a pretty cold, hedonistic b'stard, but stuff like this is just wrong :(
Ultimately, the people or person to blame is whoever snatched the poor mite. But I can't help but think that as her parents left her to go out for a meal they are at least partially responsible. I don't think it's a case of neglect, but not fully considering the risks.
We'll probably never know, but if the child was in her own room, she may still have been snatched if the parents were just next door. Unlikely but possible - there was the case of the girl snatched from the bath in England not too long ago.
Kell_ee001
09-05-2007, 20:30
Would I have left them? - not if there was a babysitting service or drop in creche no. I don't think they're terrible and to blame but I do think they should have been more cautious.
My thoughts exactly.
(don't smack me for disagreeing with you will you ;) )
All part of a discussion, boring if we all agree :)
I was under the impression it was just across a road, my bad for not reading up.
Parents know their own children, I know that any of mine as three year olds would have been extremely unlikely to wake up if they were well settled (and I obviously wouldnt have gone if they weren't settled). It would take a nuclear exposion to wake them now when they're asleep, so from that point of view I would have felt reasonably happy about being over a road from them in view of the appartment with very regular checks. But I wouldn't have thought about someone getting in and taking them, it just wouldn't enter my head (and still wouldn't if I'm honest. It's a 'happens to other people' scenario and would never have crossed my mind)
ran to her husband crying: "They've taken her! They've taken her!"
This is strange to me. Wouldn't a more natural reaction be "She's gone", "She's missing", "She's not in the room"?
Something is going to come to light soon enough. I'm calling shenanigans on this one.
I wouldn't leave my child alone anywhere...especially if we were in a restaurant eating...surely you would take the kids with you?
Then again it is easy for me to say as I am not a parent yet.
BB x
Janet thinks she's overprotective as there's very few people she will leave our two with. I don't.
Like Desmo said, I think there's more to this than we've been told :(
Treefrog
10-05-2007, 10:28
<snip>
I'm with you on this one Lorraine. It's one of those situations where you have to get it right every time, the bad guys only need to get it right once to put you through hell.
It is odd, I'd have thought you'd say something like 'She's gone' not 'They've taken her'......but surely if you had your suspicions about something like that, you'd be even less likely to leave your child alone? :undecided:
Admiral Huddy
10-05-2007, 14:00
May original post was wrong. I guess there is some confusion between blame and neglect.. Are they to blame? Well no, they didn't take them. Neglect? Almost certianly.
with the latest developments being they are looking for two men and a woman who are reportedly driving a UK reg vehicle - seems a bit odd, maybe they had been previously threatened that someone was going to kidnap maddy, hence the "they've taken her" comments
If this is the cases then there is seriously something wrong in that they would leave the children, but on the other hand could explain why they didn't use the baby sitting service.
Just read this out to Fay and we are both confused as in yesterdays paper they said they had an e-fit of a dark skinned male and no mention of anyone else.
Due to the law over there they don't release the e-fit which is stupid if ask you me. :undecided:
I wouldn't leave my Children alone and i wouldn't have used the babysitting service i am really overprotective but at least i know my children are safe.
I only let my Mum have my Children or Fay's mum/dad.
I let my Friends daughter take Josh to the park near us but thats a 1min walk and she's 14 and very responsible.
I wouldn't even pop next door with the baby monitor on.
I wouldn't be able to live with myself if anything ever happened to my Children because i didn't look after them properly :(
Also well spotted Desmo on the 'they've taken her' like most of you said i would have said something like Georgie/Josh have gone they aren't in their bed someones got in and taken her/him cos the windows open. Not they've taken her. I am very confused about that and the fact they think they used a uk reg car makes me very suspicious over them. I think they know more than they are letting on. :undecided:
This all reminds me horribly of the Ben Needham case.
Lom, I wouldn't have used a listening device babysitting service either. A drop in creche would have been fine for me though.
I still don't trust my 14 year old to look after my 2 youngest (9 and 10). I tried that last week for an hour when I had a physio appointment and got a call saying he'd let them out to play and they'd gone missing while I was driving home. He's a bit of a drama queen because they'd only gone into the next street! I still won't trust him with them again for a good while now though.
Blackstar
11-05-2007, 13:47
Just watching the news and the mother of Ben Needham was talking. My mum and dad had one trusted babysitter called Rhona, other than that the only other people they would trust us with when we were little was their best friends. My grandparents on my mums side both died before i was born and my dads mum is not good with children as she panics at the slightest thing.
I don't think i would have left my children without anyone looking after them, especially if there were sevices avalible. Looking in on them every so often leaves a lot of time for anything to happen.
The whole thing with Maddie is very strange, there are a lot of things that make me think something isn't right about it. The police don't seem to be handling it very well and just now on the news they are saying that there has been sightings of people acting strangely that match descripitons of people that could have been seen with the little girl but nothing has been done about it.
As Pebbles has said, as a parent you know your child/children. I would not leave Megan in a hotel room by herself, I wouldnt be able to trust her. And I just wouldnt feel comfortable leaving her. I'm not sure if I'd leave her with the hotel's babysitting service, she would be a nightmare to settle if she wasnt already fast asleep, and she suffers with night terrors occasionally. Despite these things, I still wouldnt feel comfortable leaving her in a room by herself.
They obviously felt comfortable leaving the children in the room and checking on them.
Did anyone see the news special on itv the other night? The detective that was in charge of the Jamie Bulger case and a criminal psychologist reckon it must be a paedophile or group of them that had been watching the family and chose Madeline :(
I agree that the Mother saying 'They've taken her' does seem extremely odd :\ And in the press conference saying 'Please dont scare her', poor mite will probably already've been petrified :(
I hope they find this little girl well and alive, and that she isnt too traumatised by this nightmare :(
I cant remember his name Kitten :(
I dont know why, but I get the feeling this little girl is still alive, perhaps it's just wishful thinking :(
I don't think she's coming home. Don't mean to look on the bad side but how many kids actually come home after 9 days? i don't know any. :(
There's been the odd rare case, I recall a kid in America reappearing a few years after being kidnapped and he seemed to be physically unharmed which was particularly odd really.
Personally I doubt they're going to find her now though, she might not even be in the country anymore.
At this stage I guesss they're relying on one of the people involved being tempted by the reward.
I just can't begin to imagine what the parents are going through :(
I'm with the majority on this one, i would never leave my kids alone at that age regardless of how far away i was. I'm pretty sure there are laws about that in the UK although that isnt the reason for me not leaving them. Jodie and i specifically havent gone anywhere nice on holiday since we've had kids as we don't want to be stuck in a room from 7 onwards. I'm not sure why people see it as more acceptable when abroad when really that's probably the worst time to leave them, unfamiliar dwelling / surroundings etc.
Although not to blame for the girl going missing the parents have a large part to play in it and if it was me i couldnt live with myself knowing it could have been so easily avoided.
The poor girl is almost certainly dead now in my mind :(, as soon as the media coverage became as large as it is it would be stupid to keep hold of her.
Although not to blame for the girl going missing the parents have a large part to play in it and if it was me i couldnt live with myself knowing it could have been so easily avoided.
They probably have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their lives. I think I'm mostly upset at the vitriole being directed at these people rather than feeling they were right in leaving her (which having seen a plan of the complex I don't). I wouldn't wish what they are going through on anyone and I fail to see how all the 'they were asking for it' comments have any useful bearing on the situation.
The poor girl is almost certainly dead now in my mind :(, as soon as the media coverage became as large as it is it would be stupid to keep hold of her.
A bit of me hopes that she is :( The lack of ransom demands etc means the likely alternative is too unthinkable.
Piggymon
23-05-2007, 21:25
I'm probably a cold heartless person but I've really had enough of all of this now.
It is very sad that this little girl has gone missing but thousands of children go missing every year and they don't get celebrities jumping on the bandwagon and cricket teams wearing yellow ribbons for them.
I really do hope she is found safe and well but dear god I am sick of all this media coverage and I feel I can't speak out about it incase I am branded a bitch :/
You won't be branded that way by me - I agree with you.
I can understand the parents wanting to milk the media for all it's worth, but there is such a thing as compassion fatigue, and it's clearly starting to set in in this case.
Agreed, the poor parents of the little boy who went missing last year must be absolutely gutted as no one heard anything of him.
An 11 year old girl went missing a few days ago too, not sure what happened there. Only heard one report about it on the radio and that was that :undecided:
I really do hope she is found safe and well but dear god I am sick of all this media coverage and I feel I can't speak out about it incase I am branded a bitch :/
Nope not at all. You're not the only one I've heard this from. I've seen large discussions on other forums and while everyone really does hope the girl comes back alive they do hate the way the media has blown this up. I've had emails from people sending me a jpg wanted ad, people on MySpace have her image as their avatar, people on ebay selling little hearts with proceeds going to the fund and I even saw her face on a Bit Torrent news site. I heard that over 5,000 children were kidnapped for child sex rings last year or something. Why aren't their faces on bit torrent sites, or on the Sun? Why don't celebs donate to that? How many parents must there be out there wondering where their 2.5 million reward is for their kid? Why isn't Beckham out looking for their lost child? 1 person goes missing and a story to market. 5,000 and thats just statistics.
Hope she's found :(
Admiral Huddy
24-05-2007, 11:28
The saddest thing about this story, as predicted, is that as time goes on without any news on the girl’s whereabouts then the media and public interest will be gradually being pushed out of the papers and minds respectively.
The press have had their field day of sensational "breaking headline" news and the public of their over reacted, hypercritical concerns. Tomorrow there is a new story.
What is sad about this, is that the parents must have thought with all the media and public support, then the outcome come must be positive. That's not happening and the back off must be a kick in the face for them as they have filled them with false hope. As people and media give up and start to loose interest (which they are), the parents are left to pick up the pieces. That must be quite hurtful. I know what i'm trying to say.. .difficult to put into words.. :(
The cynic in me can't help but wonder if it wasn't one of the parents? I really shouldn't think that way at all, but its happened so many times now its becoming my first reaction when I see a media circus kidnap case.
I would never leave my children alone in a hotel room in a million years. The least of my concerns would be abduction, I would mostly be worried about them waking up to find themselves alone and be scared, hurt themselves, manage to wander off etc. It isn't the same as being in the garden at all imo. They were quite far from the children from what I've seen. Is it acceptable for someone to leave their kids at home in bed asleep while they pop down the local pub? I don't think so and if that happened then I'm sure the parents would be in trouble.
As Cliff said it's a situation that could have been avoided but wasn't. If I was so intent on going out for dinner whist on holiday without my children I would have hired a babysitter but they chose not to. Leaving children that are so young alone is alien to me.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,70131-1283158,00.html
Traces of Madeleine's blood found in the Mcann's hire car and the unreleased DNA results on blood found in the apartment seem to have caused Mrs Mcann to become a formal suspect in the case and will be subjected to more probing questions about her daughter's disappearance.
An interesting development, one can only wonder now what the hell happened to the poor girl. I'm still saying the Mcanns are innocent till proven guilty but it isn't looking good at the moment.
I'm surprised it's taken so long, there's been a nagging doubt in my mind right since the beginning about this and if it turns out it is the parents, it won't be the first time it's happened.
Imagine what a callous woman she'd be if she really did have something to do with it yet duped the media and the public so much :/
Either way, hopefully I'll find out what's happened to the poor kid soon enough.
Edit: Feek I've had the same nagging doubt, something just doesn't quite add up, at least not from what we're told through the media.
Admiral Huddy
07-09-2007, 14:24
Looking at her on Sky news, she walks away from the car with a slight smirk.. I'm sorry, but each time she's been on the TV she has never looked remorseful. I know that life goes on and all that but i've never seen her look upset. When chapters aren't closed it's makes "getting on with things" a little harder. I'd be in pieces and wouldn't settle until I knew either way.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6983604.stm
Justine McGuinness said officers believed that traces of Madeleine's blood were in the McCanns' car, hired 25 days after she vanished.
25 days after?! Good God, that's not looking very innocent for someone in that family.
The entire case has seemed dodgy as hell to me from the very beginning. Couldn't help but think one or both parents involved. Trying to remain open minded isn't easy...
leowyatt
07-09-2007, 18:59
Kitten here:
I suspect the Portugese police have realised how badly they've handled the entire case and are now shifting attention and suspicion back onto the parents to shed the blame from their own incompetent backs.
The thing that has been getting to me about the whole thing is that the mother said they've taken her they've taken her.
Its just very strange as i'm sure i would say Josh/Georgie has gone they aren't there they aren't in the room. well that sort of thing.
I have a disagreement with my dad over them leaving the kids and doing 30min checks on them.
He thinks that it was ok and they could see the room (i don't think they could) and that they was checking on them every 30mins blah blah.
My view is they are in a strange country and if they woke up just after they did the 30min check then they would be alone for another 30mins scared and wanting mummy or daddy.
I find it strange that they would risk that or not even think about the poor kids waking up.
I really hope she's alive but i really doubt it :( still got a lil hope for the poor girl and i hope whoever has taken her gets caught.
The father has now been named as another formal suspect.
I think police are going to need to charge or release Kate soon but from the family's comments it seems the police are planning to charge her (and perhaps subsequently Gerry) with the accidental death of Madeleine.
The entire investigation and search for a missing girl has ended, the police now seem to be focused on only charging the killer so it makes you wonder what evidence they have that warrants this sudden u-turn.
They just want closure (the Portuguese police) as it's really an embarrassment and has become an international negative focus for the country - Some people say it's the family trying to cover up a tragic incident/accident - but surely you wouldn't go to such lengths?! Why make up such a story? And why would they harm her and only her if they have other kids too?
There's something fishy going on - I don't like it.
I don't know what to think :(
killerkebab
08-09-2007, 22:02
I don't know what to think :(Don't think anything. As heartless as this may seem, it really isn't and shouldn't be of any concern to us.
Right?
Yes and no.
I think anyone with young children will have considered what would happen if one of theirs happened to go missing - and not through their own fault. This case just keeps popping back to the front pages, bringing those thoughts back.
There's definitely something fishy going on, and I can't put my finger on it. I think both sides are playing games. How can the parents be proclaimed totally innocent one day and arguidos the next? The Portuguese Police have almost draconian (by our standards) press restrictions, so we know they're not telling us much. I also think the parents are hiding behind these restrictions when it suits them and speaking to the press when it doesn't. I suspect we may never get to the truth in this one.
There's definitely something fishy going on, and I can't put my finger on it. I think both sides are playing games. How can the parents be proclaimed totally innocent one day and arguidos the next? The Portuguese Police have almost draconian (by our standards) press restrictions, so we know they're not telling us much. I also think the parents are hiding behind these restrictions when it suits them and speaking to the press when it doesn't. I suspect we may never get to the truth in this one.
T'is what i am thinking too Mark.
Its so frustrating seeing how the police other there are dealing with this case. Its so different to how British police would deal with it.
I've never really been one for speculating, but I will say that I'm not sure I believe either parent killed the girl - accidentally or otherwise - simply because I dont believe they could have hid and/or disposed of a body under all that media and police scrutiny.
How heavy was the media spotlight at the start of the investigation? I don't believe I began to notice the case much until at least a few weeks or so into the case. The hire car admittedly was much later and would be hard for them to go off on a drive without people knowing. They kept blogs etc on their movement. Sky News especially have pretty much been following them around watching them pee so unless the police can prove the Mcanns went AWOL I don't think the police have much to charge them on to be honest.
The DNA evidence is alleged and you have the trouble of cross contamination with it anyway, so if that's all they have on them, I can't see them being found guilty.
Given the Portuguese Police lack of evidence preservation and issues taking DNA samples (most of them had to be re-done), I suspect the defence lawyers will be able to destroy any prosecution case that isn't watertight (at least they would under UK law).
This is interesting.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1283987,00.html?f=rss
"What I have difficulty in understanding is they would have killed her and stored her body for at least 25 days and left no evidence.
"At the very least the body would have started to decompose, especially in a hot country. And there was a huge risk of someone finding that body."
He believes the answer to the case may lie in the disappearance of an eight-year-old Portuguese girl in 2004.
Joana Cipriano vanished from a village just seven miles from Praia da Luz, where Madeleine disappeared.
Neither body has been found.
Joana's mother and uncle were jailed for her murder, but five police officers have now been accused of forcing false confessions out of them.
Mr Williams-Thomas believes that because of the huge doubts over the convictions, whoever abducted Joana is more than likely to be behind Madeleine's disappearance.
Sound familiar?
Necropost - I know there's mention in the Shannon thread, but this seemed like a better place.
The veil slips...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7343985.stm
Slurs or not, I'd be doing everything possible to help find a missing child. You can't decide not to help just because you're getting the wrong kind of publicity, regardless of who you think 'leaked' it.
I've resisted believing the various conspiracy theories, but this will do them no favours at all. There's something they are clearly not telling us. I don't know what it is, but it smells bad. :/
Fin.
That's all folks. No evidence anyone did anything. I'm surprised there's nothing along the lines of child abandonment or somesuch but nope - case shelved.
Chuckles
22-07-2008, 18:16
Fin.
That's all folks. No evidence anyone did anything. I'm surprised there's nothing along the lines of child abandonment or somesuch but nope - case shelved.
Not until next year appearance on "I'm a celebrity get me out of here anyway.
When they arrived in Britain, Ant and Dec said 'Now let's have a look at your funniest moments...'
The other thing that's bothering me a little is the way the parents are being treated. It seems that because they're doctors they're being given an easy ride by many. You can bet your life that if it had been Mr and Mrs Chav on the dole with 15 kids there'd have been far greater uproar.
I have to disagree with that. The media might be giving them a slightly easier ride. But because they are doctors, the general public seems to be giving them a much rough rider.
Not initially though. At first almost everyone was on their side and it was only after the case dragged on and on and they became media whores that the masses turned against them.
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