Enough is enough!

[Matblack]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6227978.stm

I'm fed up to the back teeth of having British servicemen killed in a war which the United Nations doesn't support. Isn't it time we got out and or shared some of the burden with other countries? And if other countries believe that its not their war then why is it ours?

If staying in Iraq makes us somehow safer here then I am a Dutchman, it just doesn't make sense!

Bring our troops home :(

MB

[Matblack]

MB your sig is nasty to us with small screens :(

Good sentiment though, agreed 100% that we shouldn't be there, but if we're going to go in and invade regardless of what the UN says, how the hell can we just bugger off and leave them to deal with it? We should never have invaded in the first place but now we have it's our responsibility to sort it out.

We invaded. Other countries didn't. That's why it's 'our war'.

Yep, so we need to get the bloody place handed over and get the hell out or admit we've lost and get the hell out, if we are adament we're going to sort it out then we'll be there to the end of time. Even Bush can't decide when it will be a victory http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Play/17152/1/TDS-Bush-IraqSuccess.wmv/ ;)

MB

[Mark]

Even Bush can't decide when it will be a victory
That's because it won't. Period. In fact it has every chance of turning into another Vietnam.

Blair won't pull us out (he's only got five days left in office anyway). Gordon won't either because he signed up for the whole '45 minutes' stuff and now he's got to live with it, like Blair.

So, unless we have a General Election, you can safely forget about a UK pull-out unless the US do it first. There are a couple of options here for a US pull-out:

Bush sees out his term and the next guy pulls the lot out.
Too many US troops die and it actually does turn into another Vietnam.
They try to find the exit route with the least amount of egg on people's faces.

Option 3 is the most likely now, but Bush hasn't got a clue (what's new). Look at what's happened in Gaza - the US pushed hard for democratic elections and got themselves a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority. So, they ostracised the Palestinian Authority in the hope that Hamas would either accept Israel or curl up and die. Neither happened and they now have total control of Gaza. Nice one Dubya. Notice how the talk of democracy in the Mid East has quietly been swept under the Oval Office rug.

Anyway, I don't support the Stop the War Coalition because they advocate getting out at any cost. If we did that, it's short-term gain for long-term pain. No-one with a penchant for despotic behaviour would take us seriously (Iran and N.Korea spring to mind).

So yes, I want our troops out, but not at any cost.

[Matblack]

That's because it won't. Period. In fact it has every chance of turning into another Vietnam.

Blair won't pull us out (he's only got five days left in office anyway). Gordon won't either because he signed up for the whole '45 minutes' stuff and now he's got to live with it, like Blair.

So, unless we have a General Election, you can safely forget about a UK pull-out unless the US do it first. There are a couple of options here for a US pull-out:

Bush sees out his term and the next guy pulls the lot out.
Too many US troops die and it actually does turn into another Vietnam.
They try to find the exit route with the least amount of egg on people's faces.
Option 3 is the most likely now, but Bush hasn't got a clue (what's new). Look at what's happened in Gaza - the US pushed hard for democratic elections and got themselves a Hamas-led Palestinian Authority. So, they ostracised the Palestinian Authority in the hope that Hamas would either accept Israel or curl up and die. Neither happened and they now have total control of Gaza. Nice one Dubya. Notice how the talk of democracy in the Mid East has quietly been swept under the Oval Office rug.

Anyway, I don't support the Stop the War Coalition because they advocate getting out at any cost. If we did that, it's short-term gain for long-term pain. No-one with a penchant for despotic behaviour would take us seriously (Iran and N.Korea spring to mind).

So yes, I want our troops out, but not at any cost.

Errrr yeah, the Bush can't decide thing was a joke, watch the link ;)

General election won't make a jot of difference the torys won't do it and New Labour won't and the Lib Dems (bless them) don't stand an earthly chance. We aren't going to get out unless we cut loose or the US decide to pull out and then we meekly follow them. As for the whole Iran/ North Korea will walk all over us rhetoric, neither of those two countries could blow up a paper bag let alone threaten the West. The only threat we face is from terrorism and making Iraq into a model democracy with streets paved with gold won't stop that happening because now its seen as a legitimate weapon by certain groups it will always happen, no war on terror will stop it and it was never going to.

MB

[Mark]

Errrr yeah, the Bush can't decide thing was a joke, watch the link ;)
Thing is though, whether or not you meant it as a joke, it's probably true. :)

As for the General Election, that depends how much of an issue Iraq becomes between now and then. It might push one of the parties in the desired direction. Then again, it might not.

Iran/N.Korea can't do a great deal now, but there's enough 'lost' Russian technology floating around somewhere that for all we know they might, sooner than later, be at least able to make a mess of the neighbourhood (as if it wasn't in a big enough mess already). As for hitting Europe/the US, I concur at least for the time being.

[Stan_Lite]

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment.

The site your sig links to MB, makes several claims regarding death tolls for the Iraq war e.g.


Please join us to make sure that Blair’s last day in office is marked by his true legacy: up to one million killed in Iraq, over four million Iraqis – one in seven of the population – now refugees and 151 British soldiers killed in an illegal and unnecessary war.

An article from the Independant paints a slightly different picture:

The study, conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and the Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, estimated that 655,000 more Iraqis had died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. The study estimated that 601,027 of those deaths were from violence.

The researchers, reflecting the inherent uncertainties in such extrapolations, said they were 95 per cent certain that the real number of deaths lay somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636.

The conclusion, based on interviews and not a body count, was disputed by some experts,

So, from 1 million, we may come down as low as 392,979 - whilst this is still a horrendous number, it is nowhere near 1,000,000. If the stopwar posse want us to petition for them, maybe it would be better if they told the truth rather than follow the same path as the man they purport to despise.

I detest sites run by pressure groups like the one your sig links to. The war is a bad enough thing and one of the main points of contention regarding Britain's involvement in this war is Blair's dishonesty.

How can your protest group hope to gain the trust of the British public when they are at least as guilty of shading the truth as Blair - if not more so?

Don't tell me lies to turn me against a liar.

Stan :)