View Full Version : Has he been sacked yet ?
Could anyone have done better??
What's the difference between England and Lewis Hamilton ?
Hamilton will still have a McLaren by tomorrow afternoon ;D
Stan_Lite
21-11-2007, 23:57
Never mind, you can join us watching the rest of Europe having fun :p ;)
Never mind, you can join us watching the rest of Europe having fun :p ;)
you've had much more practice though so will be so much better at it :p;)
******* muppet :angry:
Was he on the pitch playing?
Stan_Lite
22-11-2007, 00:03
you've had much more practice though so will be so much better at it :p;)
Never a truer word spoken :D
Was he on the pitch playing?
he was responsible for the selection and tactics of those who were
Dymetrie
22-11-2007, 00:09
Who cares?
Flibster
22-11-2007, 00:30
Whats all this about?
Who cares?
Now if the footballers had got a wages cut as a result, that would have been more interesting.
he was responsible for the selection and tactics of those who were
"Hey you overpayed twats, go out there and play a game. Try and play it better than the other overpayed twats please. Score some goals if you can!"
Who cares?
I couldn't give a toss personally, I'm going to find it really funny at work tomorrow though, we've got a couple of guys who are really into their footie and they're going to be so down because our national team lost what basically amounts to an overcommercialised and overhyped game.
I'll take this as an opportunity to back away now before I offend everyone too much :)
"Hey you overpayed twats, go out there and play a game. Try and play it better than the other overpayed twats please. Score some goals if you can!"
thats really all it ought to take
At least the TV schedules won't be stuffed up to make room for it :)
Oh hang on, I don't watch tele. Need another "excuse" not to care now.
I managed to be in a pub for the whole time the game was on, with it on big teles and I didn't know the result until I got home. Quality :D
killerkebab
22-11-2007, 04:59
Now I'm not really into football, however I think the result was heavily disappointing. Still, I think this is the best thing that could possibly happen to English football. A good loss now will kick everybody in the shins and make people think twice and hopefully new players, new ideas, and new management will come in.
This is what happened to France when we didn't even qualify for Italia '90 and USA '94 and look what happened in '98! Every team needs a kick in the bollocks and this is England's time to turn around and shine. After all, England have the best players and yet they don't have the best team, this should tell everyone that something needs to change.
I read in the paper a few weeks ago that the victory in '66 was the worst thing to happen to English football, and not the best, and I agree. Since then everything has been mediocre to say the least. Everyone says 'England has been robbed' in every tournament since then, when what has really happened is England has played mediocre football, scraped victories, and when the other team scrapes a victory against England suddenly they've been robbed? Hell no.
I remember the game in Euro 2004 with England vs. France when Zidane scored twice in the closing minutes to give France the victory and everybody was saying England got robbed. The hell they did, someone should have told them defending a one nil lead for 90 minutes always ends in tears. The fact that the goals were scored at the end of the game changes nothing!
Even tonight's match was a prime example. Croatia may have 'only' attacked twice in the first half but they SCORED twice. Doesn't this tell you anything? Hell even in the second half, in the space of five minutes England won a penalty which shouldn't have been awarded, then Croatia hit the crossbar after a disastrous defensive error and then Carson saved a header which he only saved because the ball hit him, rather than the other way around. England didn't even deserve to be level after the 70th minute, let alone trailing by a single goal.
England didn't deserve to even get close to a win tonight and that isn't Mclaren's fault, it is the fault of an increasingly lax game the country is playing since its time of glory and hopefully now they'll get their acts together.
That said, it is sad that we'll go for a Euro without England in it. I believe the competition will be lacking a crucial side in this continent's football, unfortunately the rules are the rules and as such England won't be competing :(
Oooh this is football no wonder I had no idea what this was all about!! ;D
thats really all it ought to take
Well assuming he did that, because I can't imagine him telling the team to go out and not win.
If they didn't do as they were told then whose fault is it?
The person who said "Hey guys, go and win"
Or the team who played the actual game.
Now my non football oriented mind tells me that the reason we lost the game is more likely to be due to the players on the pitch, the ones who passed the ball between them, knocked it into the other teams net and let it go into their net than the person standing on the sidelines.
So why is it that the manager is the person who gets slated? Why don't the press rip the crap out of the team who are the people who got the actual result?
I've been wondering this for a while and nobody has yet been able to give me an answer that makes sense.
Now if the footballers had got a wages cut as a result, that would have been more interesting.
Performance Related Pay
England would be broke then! ;D
And maybe at last we can have a bit of peace from the religious zealots of football fanaticism.
leowyatt
22-11-2007, 08:29
He never should have got the job in the first place, if he can't bloody help Middlesbrough how on earth is he going to help a national team.
At the end of the day - even with the team he picked, they should have done better. They showed no heart and put in a terrible performance.
Sack him and sack them. Then redistribute the savings made by not paying said players into the economy ;)
So why is it that the manager is the person who gets slated? Why don't the press rip the crap out of the team who are the people who got the actual result?
I've been wondering this for a while and nobody has yet been able to give me an answer that makes sense.
Football is about more than about just the players on the pitch. As much as I don't like the sport, there is a hefty amount of tactics behind it just like with any/most sports. The Manager of any team has to decide which players to put on the pitch, their strengths and weaknesses, who they'll instinctively work best with and which formation to use that would most take advantage of it. They have to anticipate the decisions of the opposing manager too, try to anticipate who the team will be up against on the pitch, what tactics they're going to be playing, what strengths and weaknesses there are in the other team.
The Manager sets the training plan for the team working with the coach, putting emphasis on different aspects of the game, e.g. set pieces, ball skills, general fitness and so on.
A good example from the last world cup, when Sven in his omniscience decided to play a 4-1-4-1 formation, when up until that point he'd been training and playing 4-4-2, and most players were used to that. All of a sudden Wayne Rooney was stuck way up the front with no support, waiting for players to feed him a ball so he could try and get a goal. The opposing teams knew exactly who to mark, and how to debilitate England. Keep the ball away from Rooney and things were a lot harder.
The difference between a good manager and a bad one is huge. If it wasn't you wouldn't see them earning anywhere near the amount they do, nor would you see teams desperate to hold onto the good managers. Sure a good part comes down to the players on the pitch, but if you're suddenly playing out of position under bosses orders, or are playing to specific set pieces and instructions given by the manager, there is little you can do.
England has for a long, long time been a quarter-final football team. To not even qualify for the European cup when there are still talented players on the pitch suggests something more significant is going wrong, especially when they lose to teams like Russia.
Almost as annoying however, are the people on this forum who insist on posting even though they have no opinion, or no interest in the subject. It happens in nearly every thread to do with sport or TV and it's just not necessary. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but when it's the same each time and we know what it is without even reading, it just gets boring.
I can have an opinion without any real interest in the subject, there's nowt wrong with that and I think I've hardly made any real comments about football in the past apart from stuff similar to the 'overpaid twats' bit. This is the first time I've ever gone any deeper and asked the question which I've been pondering for a number of years.
Sorry.
Lynnie_pitch nee Leigh
22-11-2007, 09:24
I told Davey last night they were going to lose. I don't claim to be a huge football fan and I can't tell you how they can improve but they need to sort it out!
Players say it means so much to them, so if they get knocked out, they don't get paid. Just give them that extra push. I don't just mean the players, I think the manager should have terms like that too!
Just gives me a bit of a meh feeling really :( :/
Matblack
22-11-2007, 09:30
Cheap firelighters at Hotukdeals.com
http://www.hotukdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1233720
MB
Dymetrie
22-11-2007, 09:41
its more the 'who cares' (sorry dym ) and the 'i dont watch football/watch tv because its rubbish' posts that just get boring because they appear in almost every thread now and add nothing except post counts.
It may come as a surprise, but I actually like football and thoroughly enjoy a good game.
Unfortunately it's been quite some time since the England team have provided us with even a half decent game.
Apologies for being caustic in my previous post.
An opinion is an opinion, it's easily ignored if people want to ignore it. A subject always has more than one side of a story. I agree (and I'm guilty of this too) that a one off 2 word comment doesn't help but anyone's opinion is allowed and accepted on this forum, but a debated comment like Feek's is unconditionally and unequivocally acceptable. I understand the frustration maybe that some people are excited about certain things that other's aren't, if someone makes a negative comment, either try and address the issues and convince the person that it's not that bad, or just ignore the negative comment. People will judge people, you can't help it, so comments are just the same they will happen. There is a bit of snob in all of us - it's life.
Matblack
22-11-2007, 09:53
I don't like it much, but I did watch it and thought it was OK-ish, the come back was certainly exciting starting with the penalty and I also though the Crouch goal showed a lot of skill but I have trouble getting really excited about football in general.
Feek I think the manager plays quite a big part in creating a team who will work well together, I presume its all about compatibility, bit like a chef choosing ingredients, if you cock up the mix then certain ingredients won't work well together, he certainly seemed to choose a lot of untested ingredients but all the nice stuff was out of season (injured) so I think he was a bit limited.
I do regret how much publicity football gets though, there are so many other sports which are just as worthy for funding and/ or publicity but even when our athletes continuously compete and often win at the highest level our papers only seem to be interested in Beckham's latest tattoo and if we can repeat the '66 victory :(
MB
Admiral Huddy
22-11-2007, 09:58
To be perfectly honest, all though sacking him seems to be the obvious answer, it's like sticking a plaster on an infected wound. The damage is much deeper.
The problem that English football faces is the abundance of foreign players now playing in the premiership and the the lack of English players breaking through both here and abroad. The selection is becoming more and more restricted.
When you look at Germans, Italians, etc.. their top players are present in their respective domestic leagues and leagues abroad. English players don't have the same amount of exposure and presence.. I think theis was illustrated by the fact that brought on two Tottenham subsitutes for Englands front line.
We have to allow more English players in at the top end or last nights dissapointment will only become a common occurance.
Dymetrie
22-11-2007, 10:05
I agree (and I'm guilty of this too) that a one off 2 word comment doesn't help.
To be fair, the opening post was a 2 word comment, one of which was starred out :p
He's just being given a swift kick out of his job as I post this. Scapegoat tbh.
He's just being given a swift kick out of his job as I post this. Scapegoat tbh.
Not really, he played an inexperienced goalkeeper in an extremely important match, and then tried a tactic he hadn't really experimented with before. Important matches are crap times to experiment.
The team played crap and they should be ashamed of themselves because they could, and have, done so much better. But on the tactics side of thing, they should have been a lot better organised.
Edit: £2.5m pay off for getting fired....no wonder he did his job so crap.
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 11:09
He's just being given a swift kick out of his job as I post this. Scapegoat tbh.
Not really. He simply wasn't good enough.
Admiral Huddy
22-11-2007, 11:09
No he's not a scapegoat.. he didn't have the greatest reputation or record .. He got Middlesborough to a Uefa cup final in that's it really. His appointment was always a but naff.. Some heads sould fall at the FA HQ too.. but as I said before, some changes need to be made to the English football at club level for things to improve. Stop paying average players like Lampard, Gerrad etc world class wages might be a good start...
Scapegoat obviously wasn't the word I was looking for, not sure what was, and I'm going to butt out as I know very little about the game - don't even know the result except that we lost.
Kitten, you're absolutely right in my case - I shouldn't have posted here. Sorry.
In my opinion....
Football is no longer a sport, hasn't been for years. It's a business. If teams could find a way of making the same money without playing a game, they would. No support for home grown players as it's easier to buy in overseas talent. And what players there are, as fantastically overpaid and don't appear to have to answer to poor performances.
That's why I have such a cynical view of the sport.
And I shall also back out from the thread, as true enough, it's not the place for that kind of rant :o
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 11:30
Stop paying average players like Lampard, Gerrad etc world class wages might be a good start...
Lampard and Gerrard *are* world class players, when they're playing for their clubs, I don't think anyone can deny that. It's obvious however that their games are very similar and that they have real trouble working together. We need a manager to come in and do one of two things....
1) Find a system that suits them both and gets the best out of both of them.
2) Have the balls to drop one of them and play them alongside a holding midfielder, having the other on the bench as an impact substitute.
We also lack strength in depth. This may be because the reserve players simply aren't good enough, or it may be because they don't play at international level enough. I personally think players like Lescott and Bridge are good enough for international level (though they were poor last night), but they could do with more experience to help them play to their club form more often. We pretty much know our best players, so why not play the fringe players from the start in friendlies, instead of giving them 45 minutes (at most) which isn't generally enough for them.
I'm happy McClaren has gone. We need someone like Mourinho to come in and take over. He's not afraid to make difficult decisions that leave star players on the bench. He's not afraid to change things early in the game if the situation demands it (like after 20 minutes last night). He deals with the media brilliantly, something our National manager needs to do. And he'd have the support of the nation, which is vital for an England manager.
Grr how bloody frustrating and ultimately disappointing. Once we got to 2-2 I thought we may have had a chance of holding on for the draw, if only we could play like Italy and just shut up shop for the last 15 minutes and keep the ball.
Glad Mclaren is gone though, his short term as England manager will be defined by terrible decision-making and inept tactics, no excuse really, the only times we've played well has been when selection has been forced by injury/suspensions, his 'bold' decisions have back-fired every time.
Dunno who would do a better job though, quite depressing really.
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 11:36
the only times we've played well has been when selection has been forced by injury/suspensions, his 'bold' decisions have back-fired every time.
Aye, was thinking the same thing, like when injuries forced McClaren to pick Barry and Heskey and we actually played well for a change.
Pretty gutted about the loss, the tournament just wont be the same next year without being able to shout for any of the home nations let alone England. McLaren should have gone, he has to live and die by his decisions and the calls he's made during the qualifying campaign haven't been the right ones. And indeed like Rich said, we played better when the decisions were almost taken out of his hands through injuries.
So many times last night I said out loud 'take Lampard off', not because he's a bad player, but because he and Gerrard dont work well together, and with Gerrard holding the vice captaincy the decision is made for you. Carson was a horrible choice, it's fair enough if you have no faith in Robinson, but why not play your number 2 keeper instead of a youth making his competitive debut.
Add in the lack of motivation and drive (which although the players have a lot to answer for here, ultimately the coach has to do something about this) and his often questionable tactics and I dont see how he could stay.
Bring on Jose tbh.
They need to do like the did in the rugby, bring an outsider in like Clive Woodward to the rugby team - and do a shake up. Ditch some players, bring in new ones, change the routine etc...
They're still overpaid muppets but at least it might make it more interesting and all the religious* people might start becoming less violent.
* - the hypocrisy that a lot of fans aren't religious yet football is taken more seriously than orthodox religions
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 12:08
* - the hypocrisy that a lot of fans aren't religious yet football is taken more seriously than orthodox religions
To some people football is more important than any religion. It certainly is to me.
Thing is, who on earth would want the England job?
The whole English football scene is rotten, the media is full of wannabe managers and pundits who all want to pick the team and are ready to heap scorn on any manager that dares do something different, the ridiculous prejudice against 'foreign' management. The FA is useless, taking an age to come to any decision and preferring to hide behind the players and managers rather than support them. The ridiculous situation where the players in the top teams pick up 'injuries' before friendles so rendering the whole concept of friendlies utterly useless and removing any chance of having a settled team playing together for several games, with the FA just rolling over and ta The fact that the players can't seem to keep the ball in any pressure situation, not to mention the inevitable bottling when it comes to penalties.
We need a strong character as a manager who is willing to take on the Premiership 'elite' managers, who will tell the media in no uncertain terms where to shove it and will cause some ripples within the FA. Mourinho, Lippi or someone who has been at the top would be fantastic, unfortunately we'll probably get someone like Allardyce and continue our run of utter mediocrity.
To some people football is more important than any religion. It certainly is to me.
Exactly - that's the hypocrisy. These same people are more religious about football than religious people are about religion, yet they dismiss religion and tend to be the ones that are aggressive and ignorant to other faiths. :)
Get rid of the chairman and all the head honchos and start from scratch I reckon.
Exactly - that's the hypocrisy. These same people are more religious about football than religious people are about religion, yet they dismiss religion and tend to be the ones that are aggressive and ignorant to other faiths. :)
Go go sweeping generalisation there ;)
In my opinion....
Football is no longer a sport, hasn't been for years. It's a business. If teams could find a way of making the same money without playing a game, they would. No support for home grown players as it's easier to buy in overseas talent. And what players there are, as fantastically overpaid and don't appear to have to answer to poor performances.
That's why I have such a cynical view of the sport.
And I shall also back out from the thread, as true enough, it's not the place for that kind of rant :o
You're right though IMO. It's one of the reason I've lost total interest in what goes on in football now. I used to play every weekend for 10year running. Would watch all the games for club and national teams, but now, I don't give a rats arse :/
Nutcase is spot on - That's why I lost interest in F1 a few years ago, it's just the same, one huge business.
Admiral Huddy
22-11-2007, 12:44
..snip...
I'm going to disagree with you here because although they are great players (and I'd be happy to see them at spurs) they are not world class players and certianly don't warrant the salary/price tag that goes with it.
There are too many English players at all levels that are highly overrated and as I've said, top overseas clubs would rather spend their money on worthy players that work hard at half the rate. I'm concerned that we don't see the english presence abroad like we should. We need to introduce more english players into top flight football both here and abroad.
I do agree that McClaren was a bad appointment and should have gone months ago but whatever manager comes in, he is still presented with the same problems.. limited player choice and that's not going to improve overnight.
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 12:48
I'm going to disagree with you here because although they are great players (and I'd be happy to see them at spurs) they are not world class players and certianly don't warrant the salary/price tag that goes with it.
Considering how Steven Gerrard has so often won games for Liverpool on his own, including the Champs League final against AC Milan, I don't see how people can argue against him. Everyone has an opinion though, it's what makes arguing about football so much fun :)
Admiral Huddy
22-11-2007, 12:59
..it's what makes arguing about football so much fun :)Absolutely .. Another beer ;)
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 13:02
I think O'Neill is our best option at the moment.
Dear god no. As talented as MO'N seems to be, he hasn't really pushed Villa on the way I thought he would have done. I'd much rather we bring in a foreign manager with fresh tactics and ideas. If we can't get Jose, someone like Capello, Hiddink, Scolari, or Lippi will do nicely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourinho
José Mário dos Santos Félix Mourinho, GOIH (pron. IPA /ʒu'zɛ mo'ɾiɲu/) (born 26 January 1963 in Setúbal), is a Portuguese football manager. He is soon to be named England National Manager after leaving Chelsea on 20 September 2007.
;D
Why is it his fault? Surely it's the crap players that are to blame?
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 13:19
Why is it his fault? Surely it's the crap players that are to blame?
Poor tactics, wrong team selection, poor motivational skills, lack of leadership, no ability to strategize properly. Yes the team are also to blame, but he deserves as much blame, if not more.
Obviously I know **** all about football but I'm seeing it as an outsider - but to me they don't seem top class. I'm comparing it our other athletes, rugby stars and so on... They are in my opinion not worth the money they get paid. If they played for the passion like the lesser paid athletes in the UK they'd do better. They are resting on their laurels and know they don't have to give their 100% as they're pretty much guaranteed a job. Top class players that deserve the wage shouldn't be getting that much. Heck even the most successful businessmen and woman that work their arses off hardly make even £1m a year and contribute a lot more to society. Sure there are some footballers that give their money to good causes, but most of it is publicity related.
They're playing for money, not for the passion.
Go go sweeping generalisation there ;)
Not really no. :)
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 13:26
Not really no. :)
You don't think so?
Exactly - that's the hypocrisy. These same people are more religious about football than religious people are about religion, yet they dismiss religion and tend to be the ones that are aggressive and ignorant to other faiths. :)
You seem to be suggesting there that anyone who cares more for football than religion is dismissive of all religion and aggressive and ignorant. I'm one of the people who care more for football than religion, as is Kitten and others. Are you suggesting that we're dismissive and aggressive?
leowyatt
22-11-2007, 13:28
From someone who was once religious I'll admit I now care more about my football and rugby teams than I do about religion. So am I still dismissive and aggressive?
Matblack
22-11-2007, 13:52
I care more about football then religion
and I ****ing hate football :D
MB
He's my auntie's brother in law, he's useless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourinho
;D
Someone at/in Bristol Uni's physics department having a laugh.
[12:52:59 pgraydon@hogwarts ~]$ host 137.222.53.27
27.53.222.137.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer pys-support12.pys.bris.ac.uk.
p.s. yes my pc at work is called hogwarts.
Creature
22-11-2007, 13:57
Aye, was thinking the same thing, like when injuries forced McClaren to pick Barry and Heskey and we actually played well for a change.That's because they were trying to prove their point. Maybe we should constantly injure our key players, then the back-up can show them how it's done...
I care more about football then religion
and I ****ing hate football :D
I laughed!
I'm going to bite my lip and concede as I don't want to upset anyone.
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 14:20
I'm going to bite my lip and concede as I don't want to upset anyone.
No need to bite your lip Will, we're all friends here :)
leowyatt
22-11-2007, 14:21
I'm going to bite my lip and concede as I don't want to upset anyone.
you've already offended us no need to hold back now :p
The team are not blameless, but ultimately the blame lies with the manager.
Is that the case? Who appointed the manager? Is it their fault for employing someone who obviously wasn't fit for the job?
Is that the case? Who appointed the manager? Is it their fault for employing someone who obviously wasn't fit for the job?
Partly, yes. But nobody can sack them ;D
Davey_Pitch
22-11-2007, 15:38
Who was it?
The FA and their Board, not quite sure who it's members are. You're right that some of the blame lies with them as well for appointing someone who very obviously wasn't good enough for the job (IMO).
Don't stop there - why not include the monarchy as well. :p :D
Poor tactics, wrong team selection, poor motivational skills, lack of leadership, no ability to strategize properly. Yes the team are also to blame, but he deserves as much blame, if not more.
If they were good players they would know better surely and rise to the opportunity.
semi-pro waster
22-11-2007, 18:57
If they were good players they would know better surely and rise to the opportunity.
But if a player chooses not to follow the tactics set out for them they risk never playing for the national team again. Now you can argue that is no bad thing given a muppet is/was/probably will be again manager but it isn't something that most sportsmen want to do. A couple will and may even retire from international football because of their feelings (Roy Keane et al) but most won't and fewer still will have both the guts and wherewithal to actually play their own game and make themselves 'undroppable'.
I think part of the problem for appointing a prospective England manager is that aside from financial the risks definitely outweigh the benefits, if you are a world class manager there is little enough incentive to risk your reputation in a team that hasn't performed to its potential in quite a few years. Individually England have some excellent players but there does seem to be a distinct problem getting them to gel and that will almost always stop a team.
I didn't watch last nights game (my interest basically stopped when Scotlands did) but it is certainly unfortunate that none of the Home Nations have made it through. If anyone wants to join me down the pub supporting a random team you are more than welcome though, I'm thinking the Czech Republic might be a good punt. :)
Justsomebloke
22-11-2007, 19:15
Of course McClaren was to blame.
He is the Manager/Coach, Top boy, the Boss & the buck stops There.
You do not play a system that your players are uncomfortable with. You do Not play a Young keeper who lacks International experience in a critical game. The defence starts from the keeper & if the defenders have no confidence in him they Won't go forward & occupy the space behind your half way line. This leaves masses of room for the opposition to put balls & men in.
It doesn't matter who you are there are still just 11 guys against 11 guys. What makes the difference is the players state of minds & a Useless uncharismatic bloke like McClaren just is not capable of rising the players to the standard they need to be at.
Personally i would Never pay a footballer Anything for Losing a game, NOWT.
Players shouldn't be paid for playing for England anyways only there expenses should be covered. As we do pay them then they should only receive cash when they Win. Like a Win Bonus.
I want Jose to manage England as i feel he has the character to install the belief back into England players.
As for others comments on Football i will say this. I would Never belittle or slag off another friends interest/hobby that effects there emotions. Some of us feel the loss inside & it Hurts. If you don't respect our football then at least respect US.
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