Scientology

[Daz]

Now, I should start by saying that before I saw this video I pretty much didn't give a monkeys about Scientology. I heard a few comedians tear into them a couple of times and had a giggle but that was about it. A guy I work with emailed me this along with simply 'nut job' in text.

http://www.wwtdd.com/post.phtml?pk=3383

Now, firstly, Tom Cruise can be as banana's as he likes, I dont really care, and to be fair, this may all be him being a bit fruit loopy. He goes on about driving past an accident and knowing you have to stop because you're the only one who can help them (the guy who posted the article notes that), and goes onto say they have the definitive methods of rehabilitation for criminals and drug addicts. Well, says who? And if they are definitive, why aren't you guys sharing them with everyone else? Hmm.

A quick look around wikipedia links to the below articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White

More dodgyness.

What do you know about Scientology? I'd never really given them much attention but am curious now.

[Del Lardo]

There was a fantastic episode of South Park a couple of years back which outlined the core beliefs of Scientologists and it had me laughing the whole way through as it was so stupid. The thing is that when you take the core beliefs of any religion and expose them to logic and science they end up looking daft.

The only reason that people get so pent up about Scientology is that it is a relatively new religion. IMO it's a big pile of bollox but I think that about all organised religion :)

[Mark]

Scientology is a dangerous, nasty 'religion'. It's all very well for the likes of Tom Cruise to go around extolling its 'virtues', but it's the normal people who get into trouble if the countless media stories are to be believed. There have been numerous reports of scientologists emptying the bank accounts of 'believers', forcing them apart from the rest of their families, and so forth. Laughing at them is fine, laughing at what they do isn't.

Now, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That's one really worth laughing at. ;D

[Dr. Z]

Scientology is pretty much the most ironic religion possible. Its laughable really.

[Del Lardo]

Scientology is a dangerous, nasty 'religion'. It's all very well for the likes of Tom Cruise to go around extolling its 'virtues', but it's the normal people who get into trouble if the countless media stories are to be believed. There have been numerous reports of scientologists emptying the bank accounts of 'believers', forcing them apart from the rest of their families, and so forth. Laughing at them is fine, laughing at what they do isn't.


How many Muslim women are forced to leave their family to go into an arranged marriage each year?

Have you ever seen the Christian preachers on US TV who tell their viewers.... "God has told me that unless you donate $2m in the next 30 minutes something terrible will happen" and as if by some kind of miracle they hit their targets every time.

OK these are extreme examples but **** like this happens in all religions it just so happens that the media report every little thing about Scientology because it isn't an accepted religion.

[Mark]

Yeah, I know. No religion is perfect and I don't like some of the so-called 'christian' stuff that goes on either. I think the trouble with Scientology is that its biggest advocates are well-known and do all they can to make it look 'whiter than white' and deny all knowledge of the darker side. That just doesn't wash.

[Del Lardo]

I think the trouble with Scientology is that its biggest advocates are well-known and do all they can to make it look 'whiter than white' and deny all knowledge of the darker side. That just doesn't wash.


Whenever there has been a serious charge against a religion or church the first thing they do is deny everything and try and claim to be "whiter than white". Look at how the Catholic church handled years of child abuse accusations. Just because the person denying the claims is famous doesn't make the religion any worse IMO.

It's obviously not just religions that do this (look at the number of large corporations that have been caught out) but the impression I have (and I freely admit it may be wrong) is that when they do it they use their religion to justify what they are doing as morally right.

[semi-pro waster]

What do you know about Scientology? I'd never really given them much attention but am curious now.

When the big yin of the religion has already gone on record as saying words to the effect of "if you want to make money, found a religion" then I struggle to take it overly seriously. However I'm not sure it is that 'bad' either or to put it another way, most organised groupings of people (particularly religions but it doesn't stop there) have had some shady things done in their name so I wouldn't hold up Scientology as being amongst the worst necessarily albeit I do acknowledge some of their stated policies towards 'heretics' as highlighted above leave a lot to be desired. Though they did manage to throw up a very interesting/important case in the canon of EU law with the problem of Miss Van Duyn v The Home Office.

[Goose]

I'm sure in 400 years time, they will have changed to be much like religions of today (according to the patterns of religion over time anyway!).

[Dymetrie]

"A woman must not make a sound when giving birth as it unduly affects the child"...

I rest my case in disliking Scientology as much as other religions.

It's slightly more supid.

[Mark]

Whenever there has been a serious charge against a religion or church the first thing they do is deny everything and try and claim to be "whiter than white". Look at how the Catholic church handled years of child abuse accusations. Just because the person denying the claims is famous doesn't make the religion any worse IMO.
With the exception that in this case it's those who instigated the religion and 'wrote the rules' making the denials (see comment about heretics). I'm not going to deny that atrocities happened or still happen in other religions but can you pin that on the origins of the religion or on misguided acts by its followers?

OK, so I admit I'm a little biased, and probably fallen for some of the hype, but still.

[Del Lardo]

With the exception that in this case it's those who instigated the religion and 'wrote the rules' making the denials (see comment about heretics). I'm not going to deny that atrocities happened or still happen in other religions but can you pin that on the origins of the religion or on misguided acts by its followers?

You make a very good point. I agree that the people making the rules doing these things is worse than misguided acts but I can't help but look back at the last 2000 years of human history and see what damage has been done by these misguided acts.

IIRC you are a Christian and as such we will have very different views on this subject but I am really enjoying discussing the subject with you. I was brought up as a Christian and my mothers side of the family is very religious so I can see the positives of religion but I really struggle to offset them against what I percieve to be the negative side.

[Dymetrie]

can you pin that on the origins of the religion or on misguided acts by its followers?

In my opinion then this is the most important point about all religions.

Is it the word or the teaching which is at fault?

[Mark]

Here's just one example of what's wrong. Of course it's only one report and I'm sure there are others that might express a different opinion, but there you go...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Abbc.co.uk+%2Bpanorama+%2Bscientolo gy

Video is low quality but there's also a transcript and various articles, criticisms, etc.

IIRC you are a Christian and as such we will have very different views on this subject but I am really enjoying discussing the subject with you. I was brought up as a Christian and my mothers side of the family is very religious so I can see the positives of religion but I really struggle to offset them against what I percieve to be the negative side.
I should point out that I do not see myself as particularly religious. I do go to church very occasionally though (a few times a year up to last year but aiming for once a month now) so I guess that makes me more religious than some. And yes, it's a C of E church.

[Del Lardo]

Here's just one example of what's wrong. Of course it's only one report and I'm sure there are others that might express a different opinion, but there you go...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Abbc.co.uk+%2Bpanorama+%2Bscientolo gy

Video is low quality but there's also a transcript and various articles, criticisms, etc.


I should point out that I do not see myself as particularly religious. I do go to church very occasionally though (a few times a year up to last year but aiming for once a month now) so I guess that makes me more religious than some. And yes, it's a C of E church.


I have no doubt that the Scientologist do some completely messed up stuff that is in no way acceptable but I can't help but looking at what other major religions have done in the last 2000 years and think that a bit of harrasment is a lot better than genocide. Now maybe I'm being very unfair and judging them on what they have done rather than what they are doing now but as far as I am concerned religion is to blame for a lot of the VERY bad things that are going on in the world at the moment.

There are also situations from my life that make it very hard for me to ever accept organised religion despite my mothers best attempts to make me a Christian. Infact thinking about it I suspect that my mothers attempts to make me a Christian could be behind my dislike or organised religion as around aged 8 I decided I didn't believe a word of it yet she forced me to go to Church every Sunday until I turned 16 at which point she gave me a choice. To this day I'm astounded that she though I'd say "yes please" as I'd spent the previous 8 years trying to avoid the place.*


Anyways..... interesting to hear that you don't consider yourself particulary religious yet you still go to Church and would like to go more this year. What makes you want to go and what to you get from the experience?


L Ron wrote that 75 million years ago an intergalactic space alien lord called Xenu kidnapped Thetans to earth, dumped them in volcanoes and blew them up with atomic bombs

Bringing back some classic South Park moments. IIRC the episode ended with Stan/Kyle shouting "sue me, go on I dare you, sue me"








*having just re-read this paragraph it makes my mother sound like some evil religious bat which she isn't. Despite my genuine dislike and distrust of organised religion I still have a perverse sence of respect for people who are religious because I've seen the good it can do.

[Mark]

but I can't help but looking at what other major religions have done in the last 2000 years
but as far as I am concerned religion is to blame for a lot of the VERY bad things that are going on in the world at the moment.
These are both very valid points and I completely agree with you. People have, do, and will continue to do very bad things, either claiming (misguidedly) religious grounds or using the position granted to them as a result of religion. Catholic Priests and Bishops commiting unspeakable acts against children, Muslim 'Fundamentalists' wishing death on anyone who doesn't follow Sharia law. Need I go on? But how many of these seem to permeate the entire structure of the religion. Does the Pope condone those unspeakable acts? Do moderate Muslim leaders condone Fundamentalist acts? I don't think so. Does Tom Cruise and his ilk condone the acts commited against so-called heretics aginst Scientology. I don't know but given comments in the OP video and the BBC one I've seen nothing that would make me say no.

I am not trying to compare individual acts commited in the name of Scientology to those in the name of Islam or any other religion. Indeed anyone who wished to argue that case would have a hard time arguing that those in the name of Islam were not worse. However, comparing the religion as a whole and what one might consider 'normal' in each, the pendulum can easily swing the other way.

There are also situations from my life that make it very hard for me to ever accept organised religion despite my mothers best attempts to make me a Christian.
A very valid point and one I think contributes. I don't think anyone should ever attempt to make someone believe. Persuade, perhaps, but no further. In the end someone either believes or they do not. If they do not, then that's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned. I know a lot of people don't think that way though.

What makes you want to go and what to you get from the experience?
Not really a religious thing actually - though there's been an apt sermon or two and that's certainly been thought provoking. My main incentive was simply to get up, do something, and interact with people, rather than sitting on my butt on my own all day. :)

[Pheebs]

Some aspects in Scientology seem great, others seem completely and utterly poopy and loony!

For example, I have met a good handful of rehabilitated drug addicts (previously were on the likes of Herion and Crack but had been clean for 5 years odd) who did this through the practices of Dianetics. Impressive I felt, and even more so to see them putting so much effort into helping others rehabilitate (not through preaching but as listening ears and help lines). However, as pointed out by Dymmy boy, this big pile of doggy doo doos about birth is just a distant echo of the kind of codswallop that dribbled from the mouth of Freud (who I respect and admire greatly but think things were taken a bit too literal!) All I can say is that it is quite evident the founder of the religion is a man! What a nincompoop!

I would like to say that it rings very many "cult" bells in my head, but I feel most religions do.

Take Christianity. Despite professing to be a Christian myself, I find attending a weekly mass whereby the same words and phrases are repeated, generally in a monotoned and unnatural way, is extremely cult like. It really worries me that people do this... I actually have found myself in Church a few times and looked around to see everyone looking zombified! It was terrifying! Not only that but at my Nannies funeral I was REALLY peeved off to be told I was a sinner and we all were sinners and we had to repent our sins as we're not worthy. I nearly gave the silly priest a knuckle sandwich! How dare he!

Anyway, I believe that bits of different world religions are superb and have good intentions. Not all parts though, but hey, nothings perfect :) If people are level headed enough to know where to draw the line that's fab. If they wanna go along with the whole craziness then there's plenty of people and literature to convince them not to - I would say it's their choice inevitably but I mean this for Scientology. I understand that many other people are forced into religions without any say and for them I feel sorry. I am glad I live in a society which accepts what decisions I make and gives me the opportunity to choose.

I could go on. But I won't. Because master chef is on now :) good thread - as suggested by kitten probably best off in the serious section though! :)

[Matblack]

I've read quite a bit about Scientology I'll bullet point what puts me off

Dianetics was writen by a science ficton author in the the 70s with no source material or devine intervention i.e. he made it up. Admitedly he 'made it up' to provide background to a valid self help technique that he had invented and it is this which provides the material to get people off drugs etc. I have no beef with Dianetic except its links to Scientology.

Akin to some other religions Scientology advocates 'removal', if an indoctrinated member has people around him that try to talk 'sense' into him then the church will remove him and forbit contact with people from his past. The church do not want their members talking about their beliefs and entering into discussion. This is quite a common theme, a lot of Scientology is secret, members do not discuss the faith unless its one on one with the indoctrinated, ideas are introduced gradually as members atain various 'levels'. Most members of faiths will discuss their relegions because they feel they are right and can argue their corner, the basis of Scientology is so absurd that this just isn't feisable, you talk about thetans with someone who doesn't already have some belief and they will laugh in your face.

Have you read about what there guys believe? Zoltan, Thetans, Volcanos, its classic science fiction. I wonder why?

Covert recruitment to get people indoctrinated isn't something which I agree with, a lot of people with real issues are introduced to Dianetics as a form of help or are groomed by use of an electronic testing device which tells them their potential. They start a course of Dianetics and after a while they are introduced to Scientology.

Lastly, its a load of old balls.

MB

[Desmo]

Scientology is a pretty cool name though :cool:

[Belmit]

I don't understand the awards and stuff they get. It's like getting a gold star in school. Tom Cruise is the teacher's pet that all the other Scientologists probably hate.

[Matblack]

Lots of info here

http://www.xenu.net/

Fascinating stuff I've read a lot of it, if you want to educate yourselves on Scientology this is a good place to start.

MB

[SidewinderINC]

The only reason that people get so pent up about Scientology is that it is a relatively new religion. IMO it's a big pile of bollox but I think that about all organised religion :)

I completely agree, Scientology gets the brunt of most jokes becuase people haven't been brought up knowing what it is.
If Christianity or any other "Major" religion was only started recently we would all laugh at the concepts it attempted to put across.



They had a load of the e-Meters and guys selling the books and attempting to sign people up and give them readings in portsmouth market when I was there last.

[Dymetrie]

If Christianity or any other "Major" religion was only started recently we would all laugh at the concepts it attempted to put across.

I laugh at most major religions anyway :D

[Mark]

Yup, I've been 'educating' myself recently. My argument against Scientology was a bit weak earlier in this thread. It isn't now.

Dianetics background (as pointed out by MB, and I also have no problem with this part if it genuinely helps people, rather than as a tool used to indoctrinate people), removals, treatment afforded those who wish to leave, attempted suppression of information (admittedly they have every right to defend copyright), unwillingness to engage in coherant discussion of their beliefs, and so forth.

Add to that the fact that attainment of 'levels' is primarily by financial means (i.e. in order to attain the 'knowledge' of Scientology, you have to pay for it, and boy do they ever want you to pay - you thought salesmen were persuasive, think again). Sums involved typically amount to tens of thousands of pounds, and where do these funds come from? Often loans, mortgages, etc. No wonder there are reports of people ending up destitute as a result.

Of course, the whole Xenu/Thetans/volcanoes thing has L Ron Hubbard's sci-fi background stamped all over it, but if people want to believe that, then so be it. I won't even object if people go join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (a blatantly made-up and harmless pseudo-religion used to prove a point with various US School Boards who had a penchant for Intelligent Design).

No religion is perfect and all have their atrocities. Scientology may well meet many of the requirements of a religion, I don't see it as one personally - it's a money-making pyramid scheme and a very effective one. The German Government, it seems, agrees with me. I wonder how many insiders they had when they got their US tax-exempt status.

I rest my case.

[SidewinderINC]

I laugh at most major religions anyway :D

Me too ;D

[Matblack]

Me too ;D

Ohhh shhhhhh, no ones laughing at you.

Well, probably not :sniggers:

MB

[SidewinderINC]

Everybody laughs at me ;) Just getting my own back :p

[Daz]

Lots of info here

http://www.xenu.net/

Fascinating stuff I've read a lot of it, if you want to educate yourselves on Scientology this is a good place to start.

MB
Thanks for that, lots of info there :) I've enjoyed reading peoples comments here too.

[Matblack]

It looks like Project Chanology is escalating to a physical manifestation!

There are going to be a number of protests outside known CoS HQs on the 10th of Feb.

It seems like this has escalated not because of any real hatred of the CoS but because of the strong arm tactics they used to get the Tom Cruise video off the internet, very strange but it make some interesting reading http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/PROJECT_CHANOLOGY

I know ae is a know vehicle for rubbish but is seems that the protests they are talking about are real, this is also a ymtd regarding scientology which make interesting watching but I'm not going to link to it because it has a couple of pics which aren't going to appeal to a lot of people (dead bodies)

MB

[karbon]

a glasgow based forum im on are planning to wander through to edinburgh to sit about outside the CoS place there.

[LeperousDust]

Wahey, thats down the road from me, i may go have a gander :D:D I think this is turning out to be pretty strange but interesting none-the-less

[karbon]

they'll be the drunken degenerate looking ones. should be easy to spot. keep your distance, some of them have hygene issues.

[Joe 90]

There was a fantastic episode of South Park a couple of years back which outlined the core beliefs of Scientologists and it had me laughing the whole way through as it was so stupid.

that was a fantastic episode :cool:

[LeperousDust]

Well if this is to go ahead, its tomorrow.... I'm gonna pop down and have a nose but i don't really plan to hide my identity etc, so probably won't be partaking per se. That and i can't be arsed to faff around on their wiki and try and work out the "rules".

[SidewinderINC]

Just been invited to the london one... don't have a mask or anything.. Is it time to unleash T-shirt Ninja!

[SidewinderINC]

Well it was pretty busy in london today! must have been around 500 or more people!

Got there for 11 then we moved on to another location at 2, all in all a great day even though I wasn't very key to the protesting.

here's 3 pics..

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9763/10020801yx6.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8017/10020803ko9.jpg

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/7482/10020802vh7.jpg



And now the small video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3G5yZjUlg8

One of the guys was dancing like a moron and the people surround him are all photographers that just ran from everywhere in the crowd to take pictures.

[Matblack]

Well done SINC, I'd like to have gone but had prior engagements

Lots of nice piccys here :)

http://deathboy.livejournal.com/1082404.html

MB

[Daz]

That's a funny read, the most internets protest I've ever seen! 'Long cat is loooooooooong'!

[SidewinderINC]

Well done SINC, I'd like to have gone but had prior engagements

Lots of nice piccys here :)

http://deathboy.livejournal.com/1082404.html

MB

I was told "don't take any ID, remember a mask (I didn't have one in time so had to go as T-shirt Ninja) and be as cautious as you can if you have to show your face.

so I didn't take my good camera, next time (Saturday 15th march) I'll be taking my video camera.

[Matblack]

More here
http://picasaweb.google.com/Kettlesquid/AnonymousVisitsScientologyLondon

MB

[SidewinderINC]

I can see the two signs that we had in loads of the pictures, but you can't see me in any of them.

http://picasaweb.google.com/Kettlesquid/AnonymousVisitsScientologyLondon/photo#5165489571265155074

The two signs bottom right that have big black edges :)