On a huge downer about living in the UK at the moment [Archive]

View Full Version : On a huge downer about living in the UK at the moment

Del Lardo

12-02-2008, 01:29

I've been spending the evening seriously considering alternatives to living in the UK as despite all the positives I'm just not happy living here at the moment. I think the problem is compounded by the amount of time I spend in mainland Europe in nice hotels/areas that give me a skewed view of what nice places they are.

Anyways my main issues are (in no particular order)............

I feel like a cash cow for the government. I did some rough calculations in my head earlier and I recon that last year including VAT etc I paid over £20k in tax and I honestly can't think what I get for it. I recently had to wait 3 days for a GP appointment and our road network is a joke. oh! I get my bins collected every 2 weeks.

I pay this insane (IMO) amount of tax yet I can't (and will probably never) be able to afford a house in Cambridge. This really bothers me as I am a very object orientated person. Up until now I've been able to work hard, get promotions and buy the things I want but now it just seems that I work my arse off to maintain where I am now with no chance of buying somewhere (I would want to live) without financially crippling myself. I can't help but think that I am the first of several generations that will be screwed by the recent housing boom and I am at the pivot point (i.e. if I'd been in the position to buy 5 years ago I'd be sorted and would probably think it was the best thing ever :o)

The social care network. Before I start on this one recent posts by people like Malc have made me realise that being out of work and claiming benefits isn't the bed of roses I thought it was (and believe me mate if I could offer you a job I would just from the attitude you've shown) but for every Malc there is a lazy workshy barsteward whose Marlboro Lights and Sky TV are paid for by me! A prime example (and one that takes me back to the 2 bed central Cambridge flat comment earlier) comes from a few weeks back... I'm having my hair cut and there's a young woman next to me who spends 20 minutes describing how she got herself pregnant when her drug dealer boyfriend got sent down so she could "get one of them nice flats down York Street orf the council". Now having paid rather a lot of rent to get a room in a house close to one of them nice flats I know that they are generally filled by young women whose sense of entitlement far outways anything they will ever contribure to society.

Todays story about Firefighters getting attacked when fighting fires. Now I made a half serious half flippant post of SELOC earlier (Lotus forum) ....

I came up with a rather novel solution (though one I'm sure the majority of SELOC would approve of) while driving to Heathrow this afternoon.

Due to all the terrorism the government tells us we should be scared of there should be armed rapid responce units covering most areas. When the firecrews are attacked the rapid responce units are called in and anyone attacking a firefighter is shot on sight.

and it got a very positive response. Now I'm sure that most people who thought it was a good idea don't really like the idea of people getting shot by the Police but the government need to realise that the general public are so pissed off with the level of anti social behavior in this country that such blatantly daft ideas all of a sudden seem viable.

The strange thing is that despite all my misgivings and rants I really can't think of anywhere else in the world I want to live so we must be doing something right.

DISCLAIMER
The opinions above are what I currently believe. If they upset or offend you I ask that you try to resist the temptation to call me a rude name, count to 10 and in a polite manner tell me why you think I am wrong. Honestly I will listen and my opinions can be changed by well reasoned arguments.

Mark

12-02-2008, 02:04

LeperousDust

12-02-2008, 02:14

Del Lardo

12-02-2008, 02:30

No upset or offence. :)

Just one question though - what's the connection between not being able to afford a place of your own and tax? (I do realise us old'uns once upon a time had the benefit of MIRAS - very briefly, I should add, in my case).

PS - My tax bill is probably somewhere close to yours (don't have the figures to hand). However, I'll wager I've been paying it about 10 years more, and I'm still here. Though god knows why. :)

My point is (and I'll add in another point) that my high tax bill is what's stopping me from buying a house. IMO the 40% tax barrier was put in place to tax high earners like my father back when earning £34k was damn good as your mortgate was £400. It's now effecting people like me who are first time buyers (in the same way that stamp duty is) because the government needs so much more money from taxes. Hence one of the reasons I feel like a cash cow.

Mark, just as an aside, if you've been paying close on my tax bill for 10 years then you must have been in a postion 10 years ago to buy a bloody nice house and this is half my point. I earn a lot more than I ever thought I would when I left Uni but houses are far more expensive than I ever thought they'd be.

Del Lardo

12-02-2008, 02:33

I can't really add anything to what you've said but the real world scares me the more i think abou it. I'm going to leave uni with a metric (and more) ton of debt and be in a horrible situation probably unless i score horrendously lucky with a job (slim chances).

Dude, I really feel for you guys.

I have some rather strong views about student loans and peoples choice of courses but I'm going to leave that until tomorrow evening when I'm not falling asleep.

Justsomebloke

12-02-2008, 10:17

Dude.
We need the Decent hard working Law abiding people to Stay in the country Not leave.
I do understand where you are coming from though as I personally find great relief in having No assets/money etc because of some of the reasons you mention. I don't want to go into a long post about my own situation as i am quite sure you not only realise how crap it is but also know i do my best to climb out of it every single bloody day. It has to be said though that although i suffer from a lack of cash to do anything i do not suffer the stress or the appalling tax rates that workers in this country suffer.
My own suggestion to you would be to try to work your own situation better & be much more vocal publicly about how you feel. To many British people suffer in silence & we need those people to vocalise there frustration so that something is done about it. If all the decent hard working people leave our country we All will be ******.

Matblack

12-02-2008, 11:54

Yes, house prices are currently high and what you get for hard earned money is releatively low, you need to be a lot richer than you used to to afford a nice house but I'm not sure thats a reason to bring into question the existance of the social state.

Without taxes or with very low taxes countries have much higher diferentiations between the lower and higher earners, crime increases, deprevation increases and social divides open up which make for even more unpleasent living conditions for all concerned.

Capitalism is all very well but imagine a country with no social system, where if you get ill you have to pay to get better and if you can't then you die. Where you have to pay to send your kids to school. And remember because the people who are looking after you and teaching your kids have to live in the same country and they have to pay to get well and pay to get their kids taught, do you think that their services will come cheaply?

I suspect they will want to be very well paid for providing those services, right now people can afford to do these jobs because to a certain extent they are looked after by the state. My job for example is badly paid but I can reconsile that against the fact the essentials of life are paid for and if I get sick I don't need to be rich to get well. If however I lived in a capitalist state I would either have to charge for my services, meaning that rich kids got careers advice and poor kids didn't (which doesn't seem like a very good investment for this country) or I leave my job and find something better paid which means no kids get careers advice. This would be the same for all non essential but important services, they would be restricted to those who could afford them making for even greater social divides.

Your last statement is quite telling, that we must be doing something right. There are only a few countries I would rather live in, mostly the Scandinavian countries and guess what? Yep they all pay more taxes than we do in the UK :D

I could agree with you on the issue of social housing and that people who can't afford it should not be given somewhere to live for free but in your example the person involved has a child, is it appropriate that another child grows up in poverty because of the inadequacy of the parents? Thats probably a little glib and as a consiquence we do reward the parents too which is a shame. :( I'm not sure what the solution is about that.

MB

Jonny69

12-02-2008, 13:15

I have to agree with you Eldorado, I'm with you on all counts here :/

Then to add to those points how are we supposed to bring up a family, have any savings or put towards a pension? It's ridiculous frankly.

I'm not asking for much; I don't spend thousands on holidays or buy loads of stuff and I don't own a new car, nor will I be able to afford any of the above but how am I supposed to progress my life when I can't afford to? It's not even as if we're low earners, we're both on above average wages.

I'm sick of hearing people moaning how their mortgages have gone up because of the interest rate increase. Wow it's gone up from £550 a month to nearly £600 per month. Any idea what I'd do to have a mortgage that low? You're laughing frankly, no wonder you can afford the kids, their clothes and toys and your new cars, holidays and flatscreen tellies and your pension package. If I were to move next door tomorrow I doubt I'd get that place for less than £1200 per month and that's all the money gone every month, nothing left over.

So what am I actually working so hard for if I can't increase my quality of life now OR later? Sure I could get that mortgage but then I can't have any furniture or a new boiler when it goes bang, or a cooker, or a bathroom suite or a bed for that matter.

Life in this country stinks at the moment.

Desmo

12-02-2008, 14:37

I'm partly in agreement. I think the taxation as it stands isn't too bad, but I do feel it is being mispent a lot of the time. But that's another full debate in itself.

Picking up on what Jonny says, I feel the same with regards to having a family and saving for our future. With a large mortgage, how are people supposed to start a family. I'd love to have kids right now but I haven't a clue how we'd be able to afford to, especially if Sinead wants to give up work. The current housing market has really taken a toll on millions of people's financial situation...it doesn't bode too well for the future IMO.

Matblack

12-02-2008, 14:48

The problem with the housing thing is supply and demand though isn't it?

I agree that house prices are too high but whats the solution? If theres a house price crash then a lot of people are going to get screwed, people have been taking out loans they can't afford for far too long, if prices come down and interests rates go up more than a few percent then there will a ton of homes repossessed.

Ideally I suppose the housing market levels out and wages go up to compensate

But these prices didn't go up on their own people have an urge to move they throw everything they have at the mortgage rather than settle for homes which are adequte and prices spiral and new buyers find it hard/ impossible to get on the ladder :( Thats not good and taxes compound that but they are a additonal irritant rather than a symptom of the problem.

MB

Goose

12-02-2008, 15:12

As mentioned already, the tax rates wouldn't be too bad if we had more to show for it.

As a single chap, I have no idea what I'm going to do over the next few years. All I can do at the moment is wait.

Desmo

12-02-2008, 15:37

Ideally I suppose the housing market levels out and wages go up to compensate.
But that's never going to happen. Wages will not treble just to compensate for higher house prices. It's unrealistic.

I guess it's a problem that can't be solved. It's like bolting the door once the horse is already out and half way across the field. It was supply and demand, but it was also the lenders being greedy, but I guess that's just business.

We're going off on a tangent as housing is only a part of the problem, but it is a bloody big part when you're talking about having money to live your life. When your mortgage takes up most of your earnings, it kind of gets in the way. But as said, if you feel your taxes are being better spent you tend not to mind so much.

It's when you see it being wasted that it gets to you and feel that things are unfair. Whilst I'm all for a benefit system, I think it's loaded too far in the wrong direction. Too much cash is being given to the wrong areas where I think that voucher systems would be better. As an example (that I've put here before), some people spend their entire life grabbing off the system but if I need help, being self employed, I get naff all.

We're breeding a whole generation of people who think that benefits are a choice in lifestyle. And that is what makes people mad, including myself. I don't proclaim to have all the answers, and I also know that not everybody chooses to be in that situation. But many do, and that is what needs sorting out.

Pheebs

12-02-2008, 16:38

Just wanted to say I got fed up of working my arse off for other organisations (namely public ones) and getting paid tuppence for it whilst the big wigs just lay back and laugh. Hence why I have started up my own business - but fortunately I am in a situation where I can do that.

The last few years when Picky was been studying his PGCE it has been a complete and utter struggle though. To be told by the council we were "below the poverty line" but could not have housing benefits/council tax deductions because we were "both under 25" annoyed me quite a bit (especially after going through mountains of paper work to claim it... I ended up going to see my local MP I was so peeved). But it wasn't so much that we didn't qualify due to our age, despite being "below the poverty line", it was being told "If you were pregnant though, you would get double your salary in benefits per month".

I was MAHOOSIVELY angry.

I am all for helping those who are struggling... but it's so so SO frustrating when you know that there are so many people claiming benefits fraudulently, or just taking advantage of the system because they cba. When I was in the bobby I saw hundreds of these types around (and hundreds is not an exaggeration). Okay, I didn't know all of their situations 100%, but it was quite evident they were lazy baskets who just lived off benefits and criminal activities... and that annoyed the heck out of me. Not only were these monsters wrecking other peoples lives by tormenting them/smashing up cars/being anti social/other "small" criminal acts... but they were living off our hard earned monies! And no doubt still are! RAGH! I say we send the lot of them to Australia again! ;)

Equally on the other side of the equation I have seen benefits helping people who are putting their all into life. I knew a girl once who got herself into a poo relationship and had 2 kiddies. The whole thing broke down, he took everything she had other than the kids, she hadn't worked for years and was completely at a loss. However, thanks to the government, she managed to get herself a decent home (albeit having to wait for it for a long time) and a part time job... and was able to carry on independently, without a massive massive struggle. It wasn't easy, but it could have been harder. So for people like those I thank God we have such a system else she would have been ruined.

So yeh. I see both sides but I don't understand at all why on Earth the government don't act harder on these yobs that ruin it all.

If I had the ability, I would change a number of things instantly in this little place:

1. Those families who are solely living off benefits would be given their full entitlement up until they decide to have more than 2 kids. They drop another one out of their foof - they don't get any extra. (Yes okay, you could say this is a bit China-esque and unfair on the new born child but I think it's the only way to stop majority of people getting up the duff all the bloody time and not getting off their arses to find work as "they have children and can't". Grr.)

2. Driving age for scooters would be 18 too. After working in schools and being a scooter driver myself at 16 - I don't think 16 years old is mature enough.

3. Immigrants. I would have a thresh hold on immigrants per year (and a tight one at that). I couldn't say what figure wise as I'm not in the know but once the limits hit, doors closed until next year.

4. PC-ness. I would bring back Christmas lights and allow for people to wear crosses to their work place and such. I would never EVER allow for any Christian act to not go ahead/have it's name changed or whatever because it "could offend" people who are of other religions.

(please don't think I'm being racist or anything, I just think we open ourselves too much to other countries and are walked over far too easily. We need to sort ourselves out first before helping others as such. We should learn to respect other religions and minorities and they too should respect our working and way of life. We shouldn't have to change for anyone (unless of course we were in their country and then I would happily oblige to any of their customs))

So yeh. I don't know if I went off at a tangent... but those are the main things that bother me about living in England.

If I'm honest though I think we're lucky. I think we have it easy in comparison to other countries. I do, however, think it could be much better.

iCraig

12-02-2008, 17:28

We all have ideas on what should be done, and a lot of them make so much sense it sometimes makes the mind boggles on why they aren't even entertained let alone implemented.

For me, I understand taxes are an important part of the economy and are required, however you only have to look at how much an average person with a car is taxed to sit back and think "this is taking the piss"

OK, so you go to work and you put in your hard graft. You're paid your wages. Immediately those wages are taxed. So what next? Well, the money you've just been taxed on is about to be taxed again. You buy a car and immediately you're taxed on using the roads. Next, insurance. So the wages you've already been taxed on and then spent some purchasing some tax now you have to pay another tax, insurance premium tax. Usually ~10% of the premium. All sorted? Not quite, go and fill up your car, and you now have to pay an inflated tax on every litre of fuel you drop in.

My solution? Abolish road tax. Add the cost of road maintenance onto fuel duty. That way it's a fair tax. Those who use the roads the most are taxed the most, those who travel about 5 miles a week are taxed less. That's fair IMO because your road tax figure is then relevant to how much you use the roads.

Don't even get me started on benefits. ****ing incapacity benefit? A.k.a you're too fat and lazy to get a job so you claim incapacity. Tossers abusing the system and the government stand by and let them. The money given should be flat loan, no interest on it and the time to pay back made flexible, if they die, it's written off, but it would suck some money back from these greedy slobs.

Basically have it so if some fat whale starts claiming incapacity benefit, they're told straight. You will be paid your giro each month but under the following conditions. You lose the weight and get a job. There's no time limit, it's done in your own pace, but reviews are put in place to show you're doing it. If you're not doing it, the benefit is cut. Once they're back on their feet and working, they pay back the money they took as benefits bit by bit. A tiny DD each month until it's all paid back. Similar to uni loans, once you're earning X amount, you can afford to pay back X amount per month until the debt is cleared. Just put me in charge.

Matblack

12-02-2008, 17:53

Fat Rant

Thin people are lazy too http://www.dcbachelor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/fatbanana.gif

MB

Fayshun

12-02-2008, 17:54

Thin people are lazy too http://www.dcbachelor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/fatbanana.gif

MB

But inside every fat person, there's a thin person. With a lot of room.

Matblack

12-02-2008, 17:56

We could start the whole fat Vs thin thing but if we do and anyone disagrees with me I'm going to track them down and eat them and I don't mean in a good way!

MB

Desmo

12-02-2008, 18:02

Thin people are lazy too http://www.dcbachelor.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/fatbanana.gif

No wai :eek:

Matblack

12-02-2008, 18:08

Tru Dat

Or maybe they are just fat because they get paid so much they can afford a lot of food even after they pay their tax, because they are so ****ing rich

MB

iCraig

12-02-2008, 18:12

There are genuinely incapacitated people claiming those benefits, some are fat, some are thin and some are even black! :eek:

It's the ones who abuse the system. They rake the benefits in because "there's no way I can work in my condition" and that pisses me off if they're milking it (e.g: they say they can't work, but they're down the bookies everyday though) or if it's self-inflicted and have no interest in sorting themselves out.

Matblack

12-02-2008, 18:13

iCraig

12-02-2008, 18:36

I haven't, all sorts of people abuse the system and they get away with it because the government are too soft.

Dymetrie

12-02-2008, 18:37

Don't worry Craig, MB's just accusing you of being fattist when we all know....

*runs away from the Jimmy Carr joke*

iCraig

12-02-2008, 18:39

Well, I'm not going to sugar coat the truth.

Because he'd just eat that too.

*flees* :p

Matblack

12-02-2008, 18:43

Read the last 2 paragraphs of post 14; I'm not going to debate you, this is a very small point but as a fat person I do find it irritating.

MB

Dymetrie

12-02-2008, 18:50

Sorry Matt, I do completely agree with you but was trying to make the thread a bit more lighthearted.

Plus I feel you missed the point of Craig's follow up thread (which you quoted) which first stated that there are all kinds of people who genuinely need incapacity benefit and there are all kinds of people who abuse it.

The problem lies in the fact that there are far too many people that abuse what began as a very fair and altruistic system back in the late 40s/early 50s. But due to the changes in society and the further rise of capitalism then it's making it harder for genuine people to get the help they need, whereas those who fraudulently claim are finding more and more ways of doing so.

iCraig

12-02-2008, 18:50

I'm not having a go at fat people in general; just the stereotype of those who eat themselves into oblivion and then get people like you and me to pay for them because they then physically cannot go to work any more. There are other types of "abusers" but those are the ones I hear of the most and the ones I picked as my example.

Fayshun

12-02-2008, 18:53

In my biased straw poll of scroungers and the great unwashed, most of the long term unemployed I come across in custody are thin, they spend all of their benefits on class A drugs. And then go out on the rob to get more money for more drugs.

Stan_Lite

13-02-2008, 05:41

I understand the thing about incapacity benefit but think a better example than fatties could be used (probably because I'm one - albeit, borderline like Matt).

When I lived back home in Shetland, I lived next door to a guy who was paid incapacity benefit because he couldn't work due to being an alcoholic. I was on a lowish wage at the time and this guy was better off than I was (and I was working 45-50 hours a week) at mine and your expense, simply because he hadn't the self control not to drink. When you see things like that you wonder why you bother.

I don't have the answers but part of it would be to stop wasting the taxpayers money so much. If people see their taxes being put to good use, they are less likely to grumble about having to pay them. I don't think taxes in this country are too high but I do think the revenue could be utilised much more effectively.

I don't think leaving the country is the answer. I get this quite a lot in my job - a lot of the brits I meet at work have moved abroad and many of them try to persuade me that I should do the same. Why should I do that? I like the UK, all my friends and family are here. It's not too bad a country in itself - it has it's problems, like every country. Leaving would only be running away from the problems in your country of birth to the problems you would encounter living in another country.