View Full Version : Vegetarianism - The Debate
This thread was created from a discussion split from another thread - Desmo
Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/
I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.
LeperousDust
22-02-2008, 23:33
Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/
I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.
Actually what i think, but you were braver than me to say it :)
Belmit, lookin' good. I really did cheap out today, mince, oinions, garlic ,chilli and a cheap sauce for my chilli con carne. But i have duck to come soon (2.50 for a breast!) *nom*! I will think of some excellent orange/plum sauce to go with... I want to get back to some "real" cooking :)
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 08:59
Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/
I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.
a real vegetarian?
wow, there was me thinking that a 'real vegetarian' was someone who avoided eating animal products AT ANY COSTS
i don't eat meat substitutes because 'omg i really miss meat and want to eat something that vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system' - i cook them because it's nice to have the option to cook a wide variety of foods - regardless of what they look like / what they are 'pretending to be'.
(another benefit to meat substitutes is that meat-eaters will often happily add them into their diet (blackstar / pheebs for 2 in this thread) and imo anything that will save a fish / chicken / pig from a plate for another day has got to be a good idea)
and what makes the food i choose to cook 'crap' - it's healthy (quorn, although by definition is a processed food is low in fat / salt) and allows me to cook a variety of meals that i couldn't just substitute in a piece of veg for the 'main ingredient'
by all means start a vegetarian cooking thread, but please don't do it because 'we vegetarians' are missing out - but rather to educate those who still think that eating things that once lived / breathed is 'ok' and that there are numerous alternatives to having 'murder' on your dinner plate :/
Actually what i think, but you were braver than me to say it :)
i don't think that the act of expressing opinions should ever have an element of bravery to it - if you believe in something - you have to be willing to state your mind and stick to it
(sorry for thread-jacking Tak - i will happily delete this is you want to stick to the topic of BDRSC)
Stan_Lite
23-02-2008, 09:19
Stuff
Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.
If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.
Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/
I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.
that post doesn't sound like you, at all, Jonny. You've always seemed more the live and let live type of guy, but you're coming across as a bit of a nobber there.
1. you don't have to get something in order for someone else to enjoy it
2. the fundamental "point in eating anything at all" is to survive. If you enjoy the stuff you eat to survive, then it's all good, regardless of whether someone else thinks it's crap.
3. I'm pretty sure you're not the authority on "real" vegetarianism
Different people are vegetarian for different reasons - either way, I don't see eating meat substitutes as hypocritical, unless you're one of those pain-in-the-ass vegetarians who thinks that eating meat substitutes as a veggie makes you a hypocrite.
I am a vegetarian because I disagree with the unethical treatment of animals that are to be eaten. And by "unethical", I don't mean "the poor animals are bred to die"; it's not as simple as that. The thing I can't stand is that animals aren't given a good life until the point that they die - I couldn't trust that what I was eating hadn't lived in a cage that was just bigger than it its entire life, or not fed a correct/decent diet, or just generally had the quality of life that I believe all living things fundamentally deserve.
I was speaking to a guy at work the other day who makes for an illustrative anecdote of the kind of meat eater I would be if I were to go back to meat now. This guy works full time with me (well, he could fire me but we're still colleagues!), but he also owns a farm. His farm allows him and his family to be all but self-sufficient. They grow all of their own vegetables and meat for consumption, and their animals are kept as pets until the point that they are to be eaten. They are loved, given names, they play with kids, live in a vast amount of space (I can't remember exactly how much, but I remember thinking "I would have a quad bike!") and generally treated like one of the family. He "would be a vegetarian if [he] couldn't live like this". The only difference between this guy and myself is I'm certain that I wouldn't have the heart to kill and eat a family member when there's perfectly viable alternatives that fit my lifestyle, and I enjoy.
So, please don't presume to know what you're talking about when you talk about proper vegetarians and their diet, when vegetarianism is (very!! I mean, some veggies eat fish and chicken!) open to interpretation and you don't really have a clue what you're talking about unless you know the individual and their reasoning. When you speak in this way, you run the risk of getting people's backs up unnecessarily, when you're not really making a valid point anyway.
Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.
If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.
everyone's entitled to their opinion. Jonny expressed his without really caring whose nose he got up, so why shouldn't anyone else? If you interpret those phrases as guilt trips then that's your inference - I know for a fact that's not the way it's supposed to come across. Some people are very passionnate about this sort of thing, and they say it like they see it. Fair enough, it's not really appropriate in a thread that's obviously going to have no consideration for vegetarians, and it does seem like crusading - but you have to wonder, would phrases like that be being bandied around if Jonny hadn't been so insensitive in the first place? Probably not.
I hate these debates. It always turns into name calling and insults so I tend never to get involved as I really can't b bothered with it all.
I've now been vegan for 14 years. I tend not to mention it unless I have to because it is my personal choice to live like this and nobody else's business. I respect other people's decision to live as they think right and hope they would afford me the same respect. Unfortunately that rarely happens so I just avoid talking about it.
Seeing as there was a question asked though, any 'pretend meat' products I tend to eat are to add protein to my diet. On the whole I don't use fake meat stuff but will occasionally for a bit of variety. I tend to simply use other sources 99% of the time.
Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.
If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.
I agree completely I'm afraid. And Jonny's point to me didn't come across as harsh IMO.
We're homosapiens, we're omnivores, we're designed to eat vegetables and meat - end of, FACT whatever thing you want to say. We're at the top of the food chain, and that's just the way it is. Heck, animals get their own back from time to time when they kill a human, we're not indestructable. We've been eating meat since the dawn of time, and we've evovled with that diet in mind.
I have couple of vegetarian friends and the reason they don't eat is because they were never brought up to eat meat, and as a result they just don't like the taste. Some others just don't like the fact that boor bambie or daisy had to die an are a bit grossed out by blood. That's fair enough.
Also people deciding they just don't want to eat meat because they just don't want to I have no issues with at all. It's a free choice. Just like I'm abstaining from alcohol at the moment, or don't smoke, it's a choice I make.
What I cannot and will not tolerate is the opinion that eating meat is wrong. What a pile of bull****. I just have no time for that at all.
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 10:55
again, sorry for derailing Taks thread - but I'm afraid on issues like this i'm like a dog with a bone (ho-ho)
Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.
If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.
it's not about 'guilt tripping' it's about how I see what you are eating - if Jonny can say that meat substitutes are 'crap' then i am surely allowed to defend them - and explain why i choose to eat them.
i think vegetarianism is a very interesting topic
meat eaters seem to think that as soon as vegetarians start to rationalize their choices - that we are guilt tripping them - if you don't think what you're doing is 'wrong' or 'morally unjust', then what is there to feel guilty about?
if we can have a sensible and reasoned discussion about omnivorous diets vs. vegetarian diets - it should be interesting, but i am sure that no one will be able to make me feel guilty about my diet choice, or even make me consider changing my mind.
i did not start a discussion with the aim to offend people, get their backs up, or even to try and change their mind - but this is an issue i am PASSIONATE about - and it would be unreasonable of others to expect me to not defend my lifestyle when it comes under criticism.
That's fair enough - I don't think you're getting people's backs up. :)
I used to work at a butchers so I'm afraid I'm never going to feel guilty about eating meat! ;D
I agree completely I'm afraid. And Jonny's point to me didn't come across as harsh IMO.
that's because you don't fit his "don't eat substitutes if you're a real vegetarian" remit. I can quite believe that as someone who's an omnivore and doesn't see the point in vegetarianism wouldn't see it as harsh. I'm not entirely sure how proud you are of being French, but for the sake of this you are very proud - it's like someone saying you're not really French because you communicate in English a lot of the time. First of all, it's nonsense, second of all, it's likely to get your back up; calling into question who you are and something you're proud of.
We're homosapiens, we're omnivores, we're designed to eat vegetables and meat - end of, FACT whatever thing you want to say. We're at the top of the food chain, and that's just the way it is. Heck, animals get their own back from time to time when they kill a human, we're not indestructable. We've been eating meat since the dawn of time, and we've evovled with that diet in mind.
It doesn't make any difference to me what people have been doing long enough to evolve. racism has been a part of our culture for years and years, and generations have been indoctrinated to think this way - does that make going against the grain and doing what you think's right a bad thing?
I have couple of vegetarian friends and the reason they don't eat is because they were never brought up to eat meat, and as a result they just don't like the taste. Some others just don't like the fact that boor bambie or daisy had to die an are a bit grossed out by blood. That's fair enough.
Also people deciding they just don't want to eat meat because they just don't want to I have no issues with at all. It's a free choice. Just like I'm abstaining from alcohol at the moment, or don't smoke, it's a choice I make.
What I cannot and will not tolerate is the opinion that eating meat is wrong. What a pile of bull****. I just have no time for that at all.
for me, eating meat is wrong by extension because of the way animals are treated (for the most part) in the farming process, so I'm afraid you'll have to tolerate it.
absolutely close my mind to your argument because you're saying 'don't tell me something I already know is incorrect', but to educate people like me that it's not ok to eat something that once lived. Ok, now my point - if I accept that you are a vegetarian, and you have made that decision and I absolutely agree that you have that right - who the hell are you to tell me that I 'need' educating on what I do or do not do? Maybe I have considered the situations that animals lived in and have made a conscious decision to continue meat eating. Therefore I do not need educating, nor do I need you to patronise me.
I didn't see that comment like that - she never said anything about "needing" to be educated, rather to educate people in vegetarian cooking - the emotive language was a little misleading, though.
This is a very subjective and personal subject. Individuals will have very strong opinions and will feel that their way is the right one - otherwise they wouldn't follow it.
This is why I choose not to debate things like this. Sort of ironic that as a meat-eater my view is to live and let live. If I believe something is wrong then I might debate it in order to change someone's mind, but when it comes to simple lifestyle choices I can't see the point in debating it. It's like trying to change someone's idea of what their favourite colour should be.
In other words, I've entered this debate to affirm that I won't be debating about it. I suck at the internet!
as I said Jasper it's subjective. Maybe you see it because you know she didn't mean it like that, or because you feel the same way about it already.
I'm trying to explain why people feel like it's 'guilt-tripping' for want of a better word, or 'patronising', I personally assume it's not meant in a patronising way but I'm pointing out how it's likely to be taken. It's bound to be emotive if Goldi feels so strongly about it and generally that's where the problems start (remember the roses?? ;D)
yeah, you just said that you'd taken it as patronising and that she had no right to tell you that you needed to be educated - I was merely pointing out in her absence that that's not how it was meant at all :)
FakeSnake
23-02-2008, 11:33
If your (GL & Jasp) choice of food lifestyle is because of the ethics of how animals are brought up, what do you feel about proper farm reared meat?
While we do buy and eat some 'mass produced' meat from the supermarkets, a lot of our meat comes from a farm about 4 miles from my house, directly from the farm shop.
I know how his animals are reared, I can see them in the fields!
if you have chosen your food lifestyle because you dont agree with killing for food, thats quite a different argument.
In other words, I've entered this debate to affirm that I won't be debating about it. I suck at the internet!
;D
Justsomebloke
23-02-2008, 11:36
Meat substitute :huh: I thought She meant a Dildo :confused:
Poor attempt to lighten the mood.
My favourite X girlf was a Full on vegan way back & she introduced me to veggie burgers & the like. Lots of her friends were veggies as well so i have been around the whole Meat is Murder thing. I always thought it was quite admirable that she would eat crap & change her lifestyle to avoid causing pain/suffering to animals but then she was a Lovely person :)
There were days when i didn't eat meat for a couple of days but i Always had to eat meat on the 3rd day, She Never once lectured me on what to eat & i Never commented negatively on her lifestyle choice. Her passion for things was what made her Special, In the world, in her group & with me :cool:
I'm not really sure what there is to 'get'? People have different levels of what they will or choose to eat, right from people who will eat anything (literally) to people who are vegetarian or vegan. I eat quite a range of food, including most meats and though I understand the (many differing) reasons for why people choose not to eat meat or animal products I don't think that is a choice I will ever make.
It is something I have thought about as I do have consideration for what I put into my body. For example I wouldnt ever have Foie Gras, for me personally it crosses a line but if anyone else wants to eat it I am ok with it. I have many vegan and vegetarian products in my kitchen, of course I get them as they taste nice, provide variety to my diet or in some cases provide an alternative to things I choose not to eat. In fact if someone made an 'alternative' Fois Gras I woudl try it as I have heard it tastes amazing.
I'm quite happy to make vegetarian or vegan meals for freinds (in fact quite often I make them for myself without realising :) ). Well made food with quality ingredients tastes good no matter what in my opinion. I occasionally use 'alternative' products, why not is just a different flavour?
Hmmm I feel I have rambled on a bit there ;D I can understand why this thread could offend though, I know if someone referred to what I ate as crap and that I should be a real omnivore it would **** me off.
I think we should bring back hinting for food. I reckon a lot of people would become vegetarian then ;)
I agree that some foods are prepared in disgraceful ways, such as foie gras - however, I will still eat it because I do very much like it. I have no justification other than it's really really nice and I enjoy it. For that I do put my hand up it is cruel and I have no defence for myself. It won't stop me though I'm afraid - I've seen them force feed geese and whilst it's a bit horrid, I can't stop thinking about the end result.
I've been up to my elbows in entrails when I did some work at a butchers/slaughter houses. It didn't phase me because to me it came across as totally natural - I even found it mildly poetic and beautiful that such an animal can provide so much nutrition for so many people. In a way it would be great if meat could be spared for the people who know about food and appreciate food - but that brings in horrible elitism which our society has enough of now. I wish meats went to butchers and not to supermarkets and weren't mass produced I really really do believe this. However in this country and the western modern world it just won't happen.
I'd love to boycott every mass produced item, but I'm afraid in this world it's just not possible, certainly not when I very much need meat as part of my diet.
Justsomebloke
23-02-2008, 11:40
Hmmm I feel I have rambled on a bit there ;D I can understand why this thread could offend though, I know if someone referred to what I ate as crap and that I should be a real omnivore it would **** me off.
:o Just realised i did that in my own post :o
My crap is not meant to mean all veggy food is crap it was just crap as in crap, my food is crap :p
Aaaaaaarrrggghhhhh I was trying to be all Mellow there an all.
Apologys to the Veggys :)
If your (GL & Jasp) choice of food lifestyle is because of the ethics of how animals are brought up, what do you feel about proper farm reared meat?
While we do buy and eat some 'mass produced' meat from the supermarkets, a lot of our meat comes from a farm about 4 miles from my house, directly from the farm shop.
I know how his animals are reared, I can see them in the fields!
if you have chosen your food lifestyle because you dont agree with killing for food, thats quite a different argument.
see my giant post at the start :)
In short - I love animals and I don't like the thought of them being killed to be eaten (this is an important bit to me: ) whilst I can survive on a substitute
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 11:46
oooh too many people to reply to!
in response to the comments I made about Jonnys idea for a veggie thread - i thought he meant a vegetarian recipe thread - not a debating thread.
my point was that although i can't 'learn' anything from a '10 things to do with your steak' thread - everyone can benefit from a ' how to make vegetables interesting' discussion :) there are plenty of tasty ways for meat eaters to incorporate vege alternatives into their diets - but it doesn't really work the other way around!
as for the issue about guilt tripping - emotive language is only used because it is how i feel about the issue, if you started a thread on Catholicism (?!omg) i'd probably be as vocal. :/
i wouldn't eat animals, even if we reared them ourselves, because for me - bringing up a 'family' couldn't end with me eating them :o as Jasper has said, eating meat is not a necessity - no mater how well reared and cared for the animals were - i don't think i could bring myself to eat them. like it's been mentioned - the fact that we are so taken away from the process of animal rearing / slaughter is one of the reasons so many people haven't gone veggie - i'm sure if we had to ring our own chickens neck - it might but a few more souls off!
i was not brought up vegetarian - i ate meat until i was about 10. my parents, grandma and brother all eat meat, Jasper ate meat when we started dating - and continued to do so for about a year after we met (i didn't coerce him into stopping - it was his decision, honest!) i can't ever imagine going back to eating meat, not even after a reasoned and considered debate!
It's not a necessity for you, but it is for a lot of people - I think we're all agreed on that :) However personal issues a side, meat is a staple part of a human's diet no matter what your personal views are. :) And it's jolly good for you too - well the good stuff, not that mass produced horrid battery hen stuff :(
Oh I forgot to say, Jasper mentioned someone who reaered their own food ethically. I must admit I would be only too happy to pay a premium for ethically reared meat. Where possible I try to buy meat that is reared in a more ethical way. In my opinion you get what you pay for and it is quite easy to tell the difference.
As for hunting for food, personally I wouldn't have issue with it. What I personally find odd is that some people seem to want to detach themselves from where their food comes from. Seeing people being all squeamish about it when they see it up close - how on earth did they think it got to their plate? anyway that's another subject :)
Oh I forgot to say, Jasper mentioned someone who reaered their own food ethically. I must admit I would be only too happy to pay a premium for ethically reared meat. Where possible I try to buy meat that is reared in a more ethical way. In my opinion you get what you pay for and it is quite easy to tell the difference.
As for hunting for food, personally I wouldn't have issue with it. What I personally find odd is that some people seem to want to detach themselves from where their food comes from. Seeing people being all squeamish about it when they see it up close - how on earth did they think it got to their plate? anyway that's another subject :)
Tell me about it. I hate kids/adults who go "eeeewwwwww" at meat being prepared or slaughtered. If you didn't realise where the food has come from you don't deserve to eat it :angry: I love food, and I love good quality food. I like you would happily (and I do now) pay for the better cuts of meat sourced from butchers that I trust. It does taste better, it is better for you and it's not filled with all sorts of water and crap that the mass production brings. I am anti all this cheap meat - I think that is a crime.
People need educating - hence why I hate fast food and things like that.
Live and let live :) Eat what you want, believe what you want. Just don't push it on me and I don't care what you do. Which is also my exact same opinion of religion funnily enough :D
That's aimed at everyone btw, before anyone takes it personally :p
:o Just realised i did that in my own post :o
My crap is not meant to mean all veggy food is crap it was just crap as in crap, my food is crap :p
Aaaaaaarrrggghhhhh I was trying to be all Mellow there an all.
Apologys to the Veggys :)
Loves ya Malc. Your ex sounds a bit like me to be honest. You should see the trouble I have killing headlice when the kids come back swarming with them! I know they're pests and I do the job but I just feel so WRONG!
I thought you were very mellow indeed!
And just as a side note to this, I was brought up in the country where we raised rabbits and goats and ate them. I feel that coming home to Debbie sandwiches may have contributed to me becoming a veggie when I left home!
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 12:04
Tell me about it. I hate kids/adults who go "eeeewwwwww" at meat being prepared or slaughtered. If you didn't realise where the food has come from you don't deserve to eat it.
on that issue, we have exactly the same opinion, if 'little timmy' has a faceless burger or sausage put in front of him - he won't know where it has come from - he won't know what goes into the manufacturing process and he won't have a choice about whether or not to eat it. if we educated everyone about food, we'd be a much healthier society
Out of interest, if you're living on the poverty line, how do you manage to have the healthiest lifestyle (as an omnivore) you can have without cheap meat? You'd be forcing people into vegetarianism, no?
Not everyone can afford the best cuts unfortunately.
i hate the concept of the £2 chicken - we don't need meat every day. if there is going to be a market for meat (which i am sure there unfortunately always will be) animals should be reared healthily, well fed, well looked after, and then sold for a reasonable price.
in living memory (my grandma talks about this a lot), meat was a 'treat' - you'd have the sunday joint, left overs from that as a cottage pie, then the occasional bit of bacon, sausage or offal from the butcher. vegetables were a more staple part of the diet
we had no childhood obesity - no crazy food scares.
if people are choosing to eat meat - imo they should at least do it responsibly
Heh for most of my childhood meat was a huge treat so it's a lot more recent than your grandmother :D
My parents often would have a chicken for Sunday roast, turn it into chicken burgers for another meal and a chicken pie for a 2 day meal.
Luckily we have more money now but meat still tends to be 3 times a week at most, simply because we've got into the habit now of using other stuff well to make a tasty meal.
Out of interest, if you're living on the poverty line, how do you manage to have the healthiest lifestyle (as an omnivore) you can have without cheap meat? You'd be forcing people into vegetarianism, no?
Not everyone can afford the best cuts unfortunately.
That's a toughy. From a business point of view mass production is the most effective way of producing stock cheaply. You get a high yield return as a result so it makes sense. So I can't counter that.....
However - in "Will's utopia world" (tm) ;) the cost of good quality meat would not be high. It would be available to every one and I'd love to get rid of mass production of meat and certainly get rid of processed meat. Subsidise it somehow - I don't know how though - remember this is a utopia ;)
There is no answer to that question, it's the world we live in, unfortunately as I said it will cause this elitism which is already present and it's not fair, I think everyone should have the right to eat good quality food. I'm not going to dictate what people should and shouldn't be doing - it would be too harsh to say if you can't afford it be a vegetarian or eat something other than meat... That's not fair. As I said everyone should have the right and access to affordable GOOD quality food.
It's never going to happen in this country or in a lot of the western countries. A lot of hte places I've been, the super markets sell tins and houseware stuff, etc... but don't really sell much meat, but the butcher is "in house" and you buy your ham and so on from there - and it's cheap! It's so so much cheaper than having to pay the manufacturing costs and putting up polluting factories that you just don't need.
However in the UK, Europe in general, and other big western countries, owing to the sheer number of people and the need for supply of slices of ham for example, it's always going to be in businesses best interests to provide cheap mass produced food. :( I'm a hypocrite as I do buy meat from Waitrose (though not all the time) it is a convenience but I do try and make the efforts to source higher quality sources. I actually worked out that 6 slices of ham from my butcher costs as much as supermarket stuff, and it hasn't been injected with water to put the price up! ;)
The problem is there are fewer and fewer butchers/delis around now as the supermarkets have a monopoly :( I wish they did it like other countries, and small businesses were supported and made available to the populous.
It's an impossible problem to beat unfortunately and you're entirely right, it would bring on a fascism which we just don't need. As I said there is already an uncessary elitism in this country, let alone the world that it just wouldn't help.
It's just galling that something as simple as meat has to be rendered into such an artificial process. Good ol' commercialism eh?!
on that issue, we have exactly the same opinion, if 'little timmy' has a faceless burger or sausage put in front of him - he won't know where it has come from - he won't know what goes into the manufacturing process and he won't have a choice about whether or not to eat it. if we educated everyone about food, we'd be a much healthier society
i hate the concept of the £2 chicken - we don't need meat every day. if there is going to be a market for meat (which i am sure there unfortunately always will be) animals should be reared healthily, well fed, well looked after, and then sold for a reasonable price.
in living memory (my grandma talks about this a lot), meat was a 'treat' - you'd have the sunday joint, left overs from that as a cottage pie, then the occasional bit of bacon, sausage or offal from the butcher. vegetables were a more staple part of the diet
we had no childhood obesity - no crazy food scares.
if people are choosing to eat meat - imo they should at least do it responsibly
Here we see eye to eye - well if I stoop a little ;) :D
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 12:16
Kitten - i appreciate that there are many complex reasons why we didn't have childhood obesity and 'food scares' then - (and not all of them good reasons, as you have pointed out) what i am saying is that meat (and cheap, poorly reared, bad quality, fatty, over processed readily available meat at that) is one of the reasons why we have them now
i am in no way suggesting that they were better off, just that we could be a lot healthier by making only tiny changes to the meat industry
Kitten - i appreciate that there are many complex reasons why we didn't have childhood obesity and 'food scares' then - (and not all of them good reasons, as you have pointed out) what i am saying is that meat (and cheap, poorly reared, bad quality, fatty, over processed readily available meat at that) is one of the reasons why we have them now
i am in no way suggesting that they were better off, just that we could be a lot healthier by making only tiny changes to the meat industry
Yup - spot on.
Stan_Lite
23-02-2008, 12:35
we could be a lot healthier by making only tiny changes to the meat industry
Amen to that.
Like Will, I prefer to get my meat from a family butcher as the meat is less likely to be mass produced and will probably be reared somewhere fairly local where you can check to see how ethically the livestock is reared. Most family butchers will have certificates and will gladly tell you where their produce comes from.
Trouble is, as Will said, there aren't that many around and I've not got around to finding one nearby yet (although I did have a bit of luck on the interweb recently and will have a look at the place when I get back). I also prefer to buy my basic veg requirements (especially root vegetables) from the local butcher as these also tend to be sourced locally and are usually nice and fresh.
It is somewhat unfair that the best quality produce is usually the most expensive, meaning that the poorest people are forced to buy the poorest quality produce. I enjoy meat and eat it most days, which I know isn't healthy for someone as sedentary as me but :dunno: Luckily I can afford the better quality stuff so I'm in a better position than some.
I want to live in Will's food Utopia :)
On the subject of vegetarianism. Like Kitten, I'm a lapsed veggie but I think that was more of a fashion statement than any real conviction as I soon went back to meat after I left college. During the 2 years I didn't eat meat, I took it seriously but I was never entirely comfortable with it. I would try to tell myself that my flatmates' sausages were wrong and that I was doing the right thing but at the back of my mind was always the thought "I bet those taste nice".
Ooooookay... looks like I have a pretty deep hole to dig myself out of here :o
First up I'd had a few beers last night and I was on the offensive but not out to offend. I saw my new thread and went oh my god what have I started, I don't even remember doing this...
I'll explain my comment first. I don't agree with meat substitutes, they are pretending to be something they aren't and by referring to them as crap I was actually lumping them in with most pre-prepared manufactured rubbish. Lets face it, using that stuff is a bit of a cop out, especially when there is so much tasty stuff out there to eat instead. My intention was to start a veggie cooking thread but this tread has conveniently got the bit of the thread out the way that would have inevitably occured - the veggies vs carnivores debate - so this is actually a good thing :D
A bit of background. I have nothing against vegetarianism or veganism, I sometimes wonder when folk let their health suffer as a result but it's their choice not mine. I don't like having the 'meat is murder opinion' forced on me but it rarely happens because, lets face it, it's normally from teenagers having their vegetarian fad or hippies living in fields in clothes made from used hemp sacks.
I do care about where my meat products come from and I do care that it is used to the maximum. I would prefer it if my meat came from a known trusted source but it's difficult for that to happen and as a result I have given up non-free range chicken along with the bandwagon and I generally only eat meat that is difficult to battery farm. I get irritated when meat eaters are squeamish around meat or handling it and when they refuse to utilise the whole animal.
I cook veggie meals at least 5 times a week and my meat consumption is arranged around that unless I feel like a meaty blowout. It's healthier and I can afford to have a little of a very good thing and really enjoy it rather than big plate of something disappointing and mediocre.
The whole budget thing is rubbish in my opinion. Yes it will limit how much meat you eat but I can get 5 meals out of a small chicken or whatever bird so even if it costs £7 it still represents value for money to me. Once it costs what it costs you tend to care about it a bit more and use it up properly rather than throwing half of it away. I cannot believe the number of people that don't pick a chicken carcass clean. I can understand not making a stock but the pickings make another meal for me. Even worse, some people only eat the breasts and thrown the rest in the bin!!! The dark meat is not fatty, it is on a battery farmed chicken but on a normal bird it's less fatty than the breasts on a battery chicken.
Last point because it looks like I didn't mention it, my girlfriend who I live with is veggie and has introduced me to many many non-brown veggie foods I didn't know existed (hence no excuses for Quorn roast ;) ) so keep an eye out for my veggie cooking thread and if anyone starts it for me this time I'll kill 'em :D
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 13:13
Maybe if you were a single mum with 5 kids you'd feel differently. 1 small chicken at £7 is probably not enough to give all of you one meal. It's easy to say when you've only got yourself to feed from it :)
but that's the whole point - why feed children rubbish that you wouldn't particularly want to eat yourself?
if anything it is MORE applicable to the single mum with 5 kids to feed on a tight budget - when the vegetarian options will work out cheaper (farm shop vegetables, fresh eggs, pasta etc etc) and a lot more healthily for the children.
although i am very vocal on the ethics of vegetarianism - it is also about the health issue :)
(oh and thanks for your reply jonny :) if you read the thread - i thought you were on about a veggie cooking thread too, i know your gf is veggie - and as such you'd have a wealth of tasty ideas for meals - although i agree that quorn isn't the epitome of veggie fine dining - it's nice to have a readily available, easy to cook and healthy source of protein for those of us who don't eat the animal kind)
so keep an eye out for my veggie cooking thread and if anyone starts it for me this time I'll kill 'em :D
Hurry up then :p
I have to admit to being a bit of a noob when it comes to fresh veg - at home my dad did it, then my nan mainly used tins. With Mic not being a huge fan of veggies, its left me being...well...basically being thick.
When I made my stew before someone suggested adding leeks, and I am completely ashamed to admit that I wouldn't know how to prepare one :o (well - I might be able to muddle thru it, but because I wasn't sure, I just avoided it instead)
Some nice basic "how to prepare" and then some "and here's what you can do with it" threads would be great :)
LeperousDust
23-02-2008, 14:14
Hurry up then :p
I have to admit to being a bit of a noob when it comes to fresh veg - at home my dad did it, then my nan mainly used tins. With Mic not being a huge fan of veggies, its left me being...well...basically being thick.
When I made my stew before someone suggested adding leeks, and I am completely ashamed to admit that I wouldn't know how to prepare one :o (well - I might be able to muddle thru it, but because I wasn't sure, I just avoided it instead)
Some nice basic "how to prepare" and then some "and here's what you can do with it" threads would be great :)
I wouldn't say theres always a correct way to prepare veggies, i choose whatever i like the taste of, looks different, is cheap, looks nice etc... I chop it up how i see fit... Either skin, top/tail, cube, slice, chose on (or more) of those depending on what bits look tastiest and most edible!
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 14:37
It's very easy to only look at things from your own point of view (not yours specifically, I mean just from the view of the individual) and to say that the budget issue is rubbish and that cheap chicken should be banned. It's not that simple though.
but..
I've already said that imo vegetarianism is by far the better option on a budget (that's not the debate I don't think).
what benefits, in real terms, do the children get on a cheap meat diet?
if the cheap meat option wasn't available, other alternatives would have to be found.
this shouldn't be made into an issue of class, social status, or wealth - it is purely a dietary discussion. vegetarian food is often healthier and cheaper - whatever your economic status, you can make your money go further with veggie food and still have a healthy and complete diet.
SidewinderINC
23-02-2008, 14:46
this shouldn't be made into an issue of class, social status, or wealth - it is purely a dietary discussion. vegetarian food is often healthier and cheaper - whatever your economic status, you can make your money go further with veggie food and still have a healthy and complete diet.
Haven't you contradicted yourself there?
You've said it should be purely dietary and then gone to say "you can make vegetarian food go further on the same budget" which is a wealth issue.
Vegetarian food (when you know how to work with raw ingredients) is cheaper yes, but if not then you pay through the nose for it.
And the "vegetarian food is often healthier and cheaper" statement, again is a budget thing, becuase if you can buy good meat then there is no reason to suggest that it is less healthy than a vegetarian option.
Maybe they should bring in ration cards for the "poorer" families to be able to have access to good cuts of meat at least once a week? The way I see it, is can you afford NOT to spend a bit more on quality food? You are what you eat, if you eat crap your body will respond in like. Touch wood I've never had so much as a cold in my life (no word of a lie I promise you) I have never been ill (bar the occasional hang over), yes it could be genes but also I firmly believe is because we are quite snobby about good quality food in my family. We aren't that well off not by any means, but at the same time we don't believe in eating **** food. Not only for the taste but for the quality and nourishment of it.
If they made the better quality foods more accessible, got rid of mass farming and battery farming, the prices would eventually drop. If we stopped developing on farm land gave the farmers more support and subsidy we'd have a turn around. It's bloody megalith corporations and commercialism and convenience ergo laziness that comes into play. We're too clever for our own good.
Maybe the poorer who are on income support people should be banned from having sky tv/smoking etc... but offered the chance to buy good quality food with "food tokens." Then again this starts towards socialism/communism (which IMO in a utopia works really well).
goldilocks
23-02-2008, 15:34
i just wrote a huuuuuge long post and then realised that it probably made me come across like a Class A Arse, and as passionate as i am on this issue, i don't want to sound like a stuck record.
i think we just have to agree to disagree on this.
not the best outcome to an argument - but then why does there need to be a resolution?
i will never eat meat, and in my opinion if people are going to choose to eat meat then it should be ethically sourced...
but if this is not an option for some people - then who am i to say they can't have it?
(though in reality i will still continue to glare at people with cheap meat in their trollies)
it's an interesting discussion :)
(though in reality i will still continue to glare at people with cheap meat in their trollies)
S'ok - I'll still glare back ;)
Though it has to be said that expensive meat is not always necessarily well sourced. It's hard to prove that the meat has been ethically reared.
SidewinderINC
23-02-2008, 16:11
Though it has to be said that expensive meat is not always necessarily well sourced. It's hard to prove that the meat has been ethically reared.
<probably asking for trouble posting this in a veggie thread but here goes>
http://www.farmerschoice.net/
That's where we (Read: my mum) used to buy our good cuts of meat from :)
I haven't gotten round to setting up an account yet though since moving in to my new place, I can afford it though.
Eat what you want, believe what you want. Just don't push it on me and I don't care what you do.
Spot on. I have no issue with vegetarian or vegans whatsoever for the most part. It's their body, their money, and their ethics. It's totally up to them what they consume, BUT in as much respect it's up to me what I consume as well.
This affects both parties because on either side you have people pushing their opinion on human food into the faces of others. I've been harassed by vegetarians before, telling me I'm scum for eating meat and it's unnatural. The human body isn't designed to process meat, yadda yadda yadda. Meat eaters are just as bad. They push their opinion in the face of others too; You are malnourished if you don't eat meat. There's things in meat you can't get anywhere else, and other such nonsense. These extreme views don't do either lifestyle any favours.
We're very diverse and opinionated, and as such, we should respect each other's choices for their lifestyle. Simple as that.
Just a heads up: two packs of free range chicken legs and thighs (4) are on offer for £3 in M&S, £5 if you wanted to go for the organic version. That's 6 portions for me, 4 thighs and two lots of 2 drumsticks. I have no doubt they are going to be exceptionally tasty compared to two packs of battery farmed breasts (8) for £5.99 in Sainsburys, it's just a cheaper cut of a premium product.
Fantastic. Thanks Johnny. I don't have issues sourcing fresh, local beef/lamb etc., but chicken can be a problem, especially as me & Leon have agreed that unethical chicken is off the menu for good :)
Justsomebloke
24-02-2008, 18:53
I feel that coming home to Debbie sandwiches may have contributed to me becoming a veggie when I left home!
;D;D
semi-pro waster
24-02-2008, 23:26
I'm probably a bit late in joining this but as it is a thread on vegetarianism I can't quite leave it alone although I've probably said most of it before anyway.
I'm vegetarian and have been since I was about 4 or 5, it was my decision and not down to parental pressure - while my mum has been vegetarian from before I was born she used to cook meat for me and would never have forced me not to eat meat. I always find it rather amusing when people tell me how unhealthy I must be as a vegetarian or that I'm not getting enough of foodstuff X in my diet, I'm fortunate enough to be one of the healthiest people I know - while I can't say for certain that I wouldn't be healthier as an omnivore it is difficult for me to see how. One of the things I will probably never understand though is when people ask me "so you're vegetarian, does that mean you eat fish?". :confused:
I don't like meat substitutes much because I don't like the taste/texture of meat but lots of people assume that I must since I'm 'missing out', oddly enough I've never felt like that, I've been vegetarian so long that it doesn't even occur to me most of the time. However if people want to become a vegetarian on ethical grounds or whatever and find that a meat substitute helps them in their choice then I've obviously got no issues with it. Such things don't appeal to me but nor does a lot of what people do so I'm not about to worry about it.
At the end of that rather disjointed mess, my view is definitely of the live and let live variety. I don't really care what you eat, what you believe or what you do - live your life and leave me free to enjoy mine. That doesn't mean I don't want to talk about it as I do like a good debate on most subjects but I always try not to take it seriously, it just isn't worth it.
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 05:26
I was wondering how easy the long term vegetarians found sourcing ingredients for cooking etc. Do you have lists of stuff which you know contain no animal derived ingredients/additives or do you have to stand in supermarkets reading labels a lot?
I know when I did it for 2 years (we're talking mid 80s here :o), I was constantly frustrated by reading labels to discover that many of my favourite foods contained animal products. Finding biscuits was a nightmare as most of my favourites were made with animal fat. I remember writing to McVities and asking if they had thought of replacing the animal fat in some of their ranges with vegetable alternatives. They wrote a polite letter back and said, yes they'd thought about it but had no intentions of doing it - basically, up "yours veggie freak".
Also, how about restaurants, do you tend to go to vegetarian restaurants or do mainstream restaurants offer a decent variety of vegetarian food?
Basically, I was curious as to whether things have improved any, 20 odd years on from my experiences? I would like to think things would be better now and you would have more choice but it's not really something I've paid any attention to since I went back to eating meat.
One of the things I will probably never understand though is when people ask me "so you're vegetarian, does that mean you eat fish?". :confused:
Probably because a surprising amount of people who claim to be vegetarian say they eat fish. I really don't understand it either. A fish is as much an animal as a pig or a chicken. It always makes me feel like saying "so... you're not a vegetarian then are you", but I usually just keep quiet because it's far more trouble than it's worth to mention anything.
SidewinderINC
25-02-2008, 08:48
I was wondering how easy the long term vegetarians found sourcing ingredients for cooking etc. Do you have lists of stuff which you know contain no animal derived ingredients/additives or do you have to stand in supermarkets reading labels a lot?
I'd like to hear semi-pro wasters viewpoint on this, as he is a vegetarian for the reason of just not liking the taste of meat/just not wanting it. not some ethical "meat is murder" reason.
Stan, I became veggie 21 years ago but vegan 14 years ago and have never had any trouble eating out anywhere or buying food.
Things have definitely got easier due to a lot more products having a veggie or vegan stamp on them so a lot of the time I just have to look for the veggie symbol and check the allergy warning to discover if I can eat it. You'd be very surprised just how many vegan products you use every day without realising it.
I have never been to a restaurant that didn't offer jacket potato and salad as an option and seeing as that is one of my favourite meals I'm sorted! I also tend to eat in chinese and indian restaurants where both serve a lot of vegetable options so again I'm catered for.
Also due to a more health conscious food industry in the last 20 years use of animal fat has been reduced in a lot of products. I remember buying bread that had it in once! These days most indian restaurants use vegetable ghee rather than dairy and more veg oil is used in mass production so that companies can claim their product is lower in saturated fat.
It has definitely improved with most supermarkets/restaurants offering veggie options and clearer ingredient listing on goods.
goldilocks
25-02-2008, 09:22
I was wondering how easy the long term vegetarians found sourcing ingredients for cooking etc. Do you have lists of stuff which you know contain no animal derived ingredients/additives or do you have to stand in supermarkets reading labels a lot? .....
Also, how about restaurants, do you tend to go to vegetarian restaurants or do mainstream restaurants offer a decent variety of vegetarian food?
wellllllll... there are certain things we know we can have - the staple foods we buy every week. the difficult items as you mentioned are baked goods, and also cheeses.
if we're buying something new, or even just switching brands - it does involve a bit of lable reading - i probably annoy people in the supermarkets.
things that you would maybe presume to be vegetarian quite often aren't - why bother having a 'meat free cheese and onion slice' that still has non-veggie cheese in?
through my job i get quite a lot of chocolates / biscuits given to me, and it's awful not being able to eat most of them. i stick to green and blacks / cadbury / hotel chocolate - where i know they'll be labeled as veggie friendly if i can eat them.
i'm still boycotting mars - even though their products are 'technically' suitable for veggies - as they applied for veg society status and didn't get it due to the fact that they only use battery farmed eggs.
anything with red food colouring in is also difficult - we can't have anything with E120 in. other sneaky ingredient we have to look out for is 'whey'.
beer / wine is also pretty tough - Jasper is fine because 99.9% of cider is veggie, but lagers and wines are more difficult.
grolsch = veggie, stella = not veggie - if this wasn't something you actively looked into, why would you presume their ingredients would be that different?
luckily there is a fantastic site (this fantastic site here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html)) that jasper has saved on his phone for such emergencies :D
the other really difficult thing is when you are offered food / drink / even just a biscuit at someone elses house - it's often easier to turn them down that say 'can i read the box' - :p
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 09:55
Stan, I became veggie 21 years ago but vegan 14 years ago and have never had any trouble eating out anywhere or buying food.
Things have definitely got easier due to a lot more products having a veggie or vegan stamp on them so a lot of the time I just have to look for the veggie symbol and check the allergy warning to discover if I can eat it. You'd be very surprised just how many vegan products you use every day without realising it.
I have never been to a restaurant that didn't offer jacket potato and salad as an option and seeing as that is one of my favourite meals I'm sorted! I also tend to eat in chinese and indian restaurants where both serve a lot of vegetable options so again I'm catered for.
It has definitely improved with most supermarkets/restaurants offering veggie options and clearer ingredient listing on goods.
I would imagine clear labelling in supermarkets would make a huge difference when shopping. I know when I was veggie, there was little or no clear labelling and I spent many an hour in supermarkets reading labels and throwing products back on shelves in disgust as I discovered yet another of my favourites was off-limits.
Having baked spuds and salad as one of your favourite meals would come in very handy as a Vegan in restaurants I would think :D
wellllllll... there are certain things we know we can have - the staple foods we buy every week. the difficult items as you mentioned are baked goods, and also cheeses.
if we're buying something new, or even just switching brands - it does involve a bit of lable reading - i probably annoy people in the supermarkets.
things that you would maybe presume to be vegetarian quite often aren't - why bother having a 'meat free cheese and onion slice' that still has non-veggie cheese in?
beer / wine is also pretty tough - Jasper is fine because 99.9% of cider is veggie, but lagers and wines are more difficult.
grolsch = veggie, stella = not veggie - if this wasn't something you actively looked into, why would you presume their ingredients would be that different?
luckily there is a fantastic site (this fantastic site here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html)) that jasper has saved on his phone for such emergencies :D
Being a cheese lover, I was always sorely disappointed with the lack of veggie cheese when I was veggie - there were only 2 or 3 kinds that I could find made with vegetable rennet at the time and they weren't always readily available. I would imagine it's a bit better now. As mentioned above, I spent a lot of time annoying people in supermarkets reading labels due to the lack of clear labelling at the time :D
I never even thought to check alcohol, it never occured to me that animal products would be used to make it. Being a student at the time, I would probably have been most upset to discover this :p
Why is whey considered non vegetarian out of interest? I consume large quantities of it as a supplement for my training.
The rennet they use in processing the whey is often from a non vegetarian source.
Info here if you're really interested!
http://www.vegsoc.org/info/cheese.html#manu
goldilocks
25-02-2008, 11:25
Why is whey considered non vegetarian out of interest? I consume large quantities of it as a supplement for my training.
i worked in holland and barrett for about 4 years as a student - where there whey protein supplements used to contain animal fats - most are now suitable for vegetarians
(oh yes, something i was thinking about last night is the limited number of medications we can take as they have gelatin in the tablets / capsules... and i also out of choice would not have a live vaccine which had been animal derived - vegetarianism - it's not all about meat!)
I was going to say - the one I get it from is veggie friendly. :) Thanks for the info though, and to you too Dawn. :)
When we go to restaurants it's limiting where we can go. I do have to compromise on where I want to go, especially when we're on holiday. Luckily she's not too fussy with dairy, cheese etc which makes things easier.
(oh yes, something i was thinking about last night is the limited number of medications we can take as they have gelatin in the tablets / capsules... and i also out of choice would not have a live vaccine which had been animal derived - vegetarianism - it's not all about meat!)
Not much choice for mine though, she's type 1 diabetic. Insulin comes from pigs as far as I know.
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 11:49
Not much choice for mine though, she's type 1 diabetic. Insulin comes from pigs as far as I know.
I read this and thought to myself that I'd heard something to the contrary so I had a bit of a Google and found this site (http://www.mydr.com.au/default.asp?Article=3345).
Today, most insulins are produced using genetic engineering technology, whereby yeast or bacteria in the laboratory are modified to produce human insulin.
I'm not sure how this would work for veggies as yeast and bacteria are living organisms - they may not be killing the organisms but I'm unsure how altering them to produce insulin would fit in with the ethical aspect of vegetarianism/veganism.
You have to draw a line somewhere though. If you pick things apart enough I'm sure it could almost be proved that nothing is truly vegetarian.
You have to draw a line somewhere though. If you pick things apart enough I'm sure it could almost be proved that nothing is truly vegetarian.
True. Even photographs are made by using gelatine at a stage in the process. It is virtually impossible to eliminate all animal products from your life 100% and it's about finding a level which you are comfortable with.
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 12:37
When I was Googling for the insulin information, one of the sites I looked at was a Vegan forum. They were discussing animal derived insulin there and the consensus was that you do what you can to eliminate any animal derived products from your life but it's almost impossible to eliminate everything and still lead a healthy (as in medicines - not diet) and relatively "normal" life. Pretty much what Roberta is saying.
At the end of the day, we do what we can to survive and there has to be a limit to how far we make sacrifices to satisfy our lifestyle choices.
I once dated a vegetarian.. didn't really make much difference and he was strictly no meat that was it and had quorn substitutes.. another one of my friends was a veg at school and kept referring to 'pig in a roll' and wouldn't eat Lozzas because of the 'crushed beetles wings'.
To which I replied they all tasted delicious! :D
Interestingly, both of the above mentioned are now meat eaters. I don't think they could be arsed as both their partners are meateaters.
Now, I am a fussy eater... to the point that all business lunches were pushed in my direction to be organised... but now Beatrice is here and she's not only vegetarian, but she doesn't eat ANYTHING!!! Its ridiculous...
We were in Bristol for a meeting in the office there and we went to Tapas... there were vegetarian options but she 'couldn't eat them'.
I'm sorry, but I find it incredibly frustrating... its your choice to not eat x,y,z so you should be able to either be prepared to cater for yourself or try different things.
Don't get me started on her though... she doesn't like the food/weather/shoes/doctors/dentists here... God knows why she moved to this country.
Oh... and I have another friend who drinks those protein shakes because she doesn't get it from any food... surely thats not right?
Will she start growing muscles like Will?! Lol!!! ;D
/monday morning waffle
BB x
Protein shakes are a supplement i.e. you're supposed to have it in addition to the regular protein you get from nutritious food. People building muscle need more of it to feed muscle growth (and repair) so they will supplement their diet with it. I use it occasionally post-workout if I have done weights, or equivalent exercises.
Using it to replace regular protein probably isn't good in the long term, but you can get by.
Those shakes smell gross :(
I think Rob takes them sometimes... but not Creatine ones because apparently that makes your Johnson shrink! ;D
BB x
I read this and thought to myself that I'd heard something to the contrary so I had a bit of a Google and found this site (http://www.mydr.com.au/default.asp?Article=3345)
We determined hers wasn't synthetic and it appeared that most insulin in this country is the cheaper animal derived variety because the NHS won't pay out for anything more expensive than it has to. It's the same situation with her Crohn's disease medication - there's a number of medicines out there that will let her lead a perfectly normal life but the NHS won't pay for them so she has to settle for an outdated medication which leaves her with cramps and a number of very serious side effects later in life. It's pathetic really, but that's a different bugbear of mine.
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 13:02
We determined hers wasn't synthetic and it appeared that most insulin in this country is the cheaper animal derived variety because the NHS won't pay out for anything more expensive than it has to. It's the same situation with her Crohn's disease medication - there's a number of medicines out there that will let her lead a perfectly normal life but the NHS won't pay for them so she has to settle for an outdated medication which leaves her with cramps and a number of very serious side effects later in life. It's pathetic really, but that's a different bugbear of mine.
NHS? Cheapskates? :shocked: Why doesn't that surprise me :rolleyes:
Vegetarians? I've **** 'em...
/helpful comment
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 13:37
I never knew that about the states - probably because most of the Americans I know through work are full-blooded rednecks who eat raw deer or bears they've killed themselves (slight exaggeration - but only slight).
Is it the case that there is a higher percentage of the population who are vegetarians or is it because they are simply better catered for, do you think? Never having been there, I'm not familiar with attitudes towards alternative lifestyles. I would imagine it varies from state to state.
In contrast to the wide range of products you can get in the US, my mum had a hell of a time trying to find a chicken that wasn't 'Enhanced with broth'. Essentially it means pumped full of salty water to make it plumper and more (artificially) flavoursome. In the end the only one she could find that wasn't enhanced in any way was bred by Mormons IIRC.
Whilst the US gives far more options for foods that are free of certain ingredients, or suitable for people with intolerances/differing ethical standpoints, she also found that fresh vegetables were extremely limited. The ends she had to go to to find a red pepper were absurd. Although you don't really notice it, if you go to a restaurant you'll probably find that most meals don't have more than one kind of vegetable, if any at all. When my mum invited friends round for Sunday dinner they were shocked to find three different types of vegetables on their plates (she usually does a minimum of five). The closest type of meal to a traditional British Sunday roast is probably a Thanksgiving meal, but even if you look at the more typical ingredients you can definitely see an absence of veg. Plenty of meat, stuffing, potato, breads etc. but not much more than corn and green beans by way of vegetables. Maybe peas and carrots, but then this is a once a year thing!
I'm sure this is not a country-wide thing, but it seems to be normal for the vast majority. My last Christmas dinner had ten different veg in it - I'd be amazed if the average US diner could name ten veg that would go with a meat and gravy dinner.
leowyatt
25-02-2008, 14:03
she also found that fresh vegetables were extremely limited.
Growing methods aside the local safeway veg department is massive I mean enormous so not sure where she was based :confused:
Northern Kentucky, just over the border from Cincinatti, OH, where my dad worked. Most of the supermarkets nearby seemed only to have a token effort for veg. When you say local where are you referring to?
The only meat I trust in the US is beef. They have AMAZING beef.
In Cali they know what veggies are too and have a really good selection of fruit and veg over there. It's great and so easy to have a good balanced diet over there. No wonder most of the Californian's are fit :)
Is that the one with the crushed beetles in? I avoid red foods because of that too. Drive Leo mad pulling out all the red smarties ;D
I'll do you a swap for my oranges :p
BB x
Yuck, orange smarties taste funny :p
semi-pro waster
25-02-2008, 19:55
I'd like to hear semi-pro wasters viewpoint on this, as he is a vegetarian for the reason of just not liking the taste of meat/just not wanting it. not some ethical "meat is murder" reason.
Sorry, only just getting back to this topic.
I could justify my vegetarianism on ethical grounds as I don't like the way many animals are treated in the food process or that a vegetarian diet is more efficient in terms of use of acreage/energy input to energy output but there isn't really any point. It is a personal choice and I would never wish to deny others the same right to choose, I might politely suggest that considering where their meat is coming from is an option because as consumers there is a certain amount of power but that would be as far as it would ever go - and that is only if I was asked, otherwise I tend not to express any opinion, quite a few of my friends have been rather surprised, if not outright shocked that I'm vegetarian because I try not to make a big deal out of it*.
As for sourcing vegetarian friendly ingredients, it has got a lot easier in the past 10-20 years I believe and is seen as less of an odd choice although I do still get a few comments. I am however less careful than some, because I don't think of being vegetarian as a major issue and it isn't specifically from an ethical stance I do occasionally eat sweets with gelatine in (while I try to get ones without animal products in, sometimes it isn't possible). Another way I could 'justify' it to myself is that gelatine and indeed rennet could be simply byproducts of the meat industry so I should not be contributing to any additional animals deaths - it isn't quite that simple but there you go, I'm stricter than some and less strict than others.
*Slightly embarrassing story time of the first and last time I'd deliberately made an issue of it - when I was about 5 or 6 I went to a neighbours barbeque and they were having fish which was absolutely stinking, I rather stupidly asked if I could just move away from the table as the smell was putting me off my meal and promptly got the piss taken out of me because I wasn't even thinking about how rude that might have appeared. Although even then I was trying not to inconvenience other people, I wanted to move myself rather than upset anyone else but ended up inadvertently making an issue of it anyway. :o
leowyatt
25-02-2008, 20:02
Northern Kentucky, just over the border from Cincinatti, OH, where my dad worked. Most of the supermarkets nearby seemed only to have a token effort for veg. When you say local where are you referring to?
I would have thought they'd have a good veg selection :confused:
Stan_Lite
25-02-2008, 20:07
Talking of slightly embarrassing moments. When I was a veggie, most of my favourite dishes invloved various types of beans - I'm sure you can all see where there is going :D
I have many recollections of trouser gas based hilarity and I can assure you my wedding didn't escape the fury of my favourite Adzuki, mung bean and mushroom casserole ;D
Well I've no idea what backwater stores my mum was shopping in then!
I've read the whole of this thread and there are some very interesting points. I care not what other people eat and I generally won't take the piss out of anyone for their eating habits. Live and let live, I say.
I'm a confirmed carnivore. I've never been one for veg and salads simply because I don't like the feel, texture and taste of them as they crunch away in their greeness in my mouth. I'm getting better and will eat some now, but still not a lot.
From what I read in here I also guess I'm pretty much alone in really not giving a toss about where my meat comes from, how it has been bred and how it's been looked after. My logic is that I'm going to eat it, so I really don't care what's been done to it in life. Battery farming doesn't bother me, foie gras, yum, etc etc etc.
When buying meat, I'll see what looks nice. If I'm shopping to a budget then I'll buy what I can afford. We're not especially well off and Mrs. Feek makes do with what we can afford to buy and it's very often convenient to buy the cheap crap nuggets, twizzlers and package stuff simply for the time factor. She's healthy, the kids are healthy and even though I'm massively overweight *and working on it* I have my regular checkups and all the figures, blood stats, lung checks etc are all much better than the 'average' for my age.
If I had to hunt to get meat then I'd be out there in my hunter-gatherer hat and coat stalking!
Vaultingslinky
27-02-2008, 15:37
I often eat vegetarian meals, and enjoy them they are easy to cook, very tasty and cheap to make. however I also enjoy meat greatly and miss it when I haven't eaten it for a couple of days, and its much harder to get 'cheap' varied sources of protein in my opinion.
I strongly dislike vegetarians that feel it is their duty to convert others. Especially as many are misinformed or have many glaring conflicts in their arguments. For example drinking milk goes against the whole idea of 'moral' vegetarianism as the milking cows have to give birth in order to start lactating. Male calves/calves which aren't viable for milk production are discarded, or turned into veal.
Now this isn't a problem for vegetarians that (a) are so purely because they dislike the taste/smell/texture of meat or (b) are so for moral reasons, and are doing their best to reduce their impact on animal cruelty.
However for those vegetarians that feel the need to impose their views on others, or feel that its wrong to eat meat, they must completely fulfil their own mantra. I.e. no pharmaceuticals, cosmetics, leather products, dairy, or meat (for a short list). Because all these processes involve 'cruelty' to animals. Most 'intelligent' people that would be open to debate probably have made a conscious decision on whether to eat meat or not, and everyone else probably wouldn't be open to debate and so argument is futile.
For the record I am against unnecessary animal cruelty, battery farming and the like, and raising awareness of these processes is important as many don't know how the cheap meat has arrived on their plate. These issues do not go hand in hand with vegetarianism though, and I am fully in support of animal testing. I am of the opinion of any one against animal testing is either misinformed or is opposed to just about every drug ever produced, and most of the advances we have seen in Biological and Medical Sciences.
Vegetarian or not, everyone should eat their vegetables. For they are good for you and they are tasty..................
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/Muban/boatdrink/1190824831354ja1.gif
I find some random stuff on my HDD :D
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! That's awesome :D:D:D:D
Stan_Lite
01-03-2008, 08:24
Looks like the wee fella's enjoying that :D - clever chap, broccoli is yummy :cool:
One more benefit of vegetarianism I've just discovered - if you undercook a carrot you'll be fine. Undercook a chicken breast and you'll have to force yourself to be sick seven or eight times to prevent food poisoning. My throat hurts.
Something is wrong with the oven. 25 minutes should have been plenty.
Edit: How do people cope with eating disorders? It feels like I've swallowed a cheese grater. Could never take it up full time...
SidewinderINC
03-03-2008, 22:20
How undercooked was it?
The ends were fine, then I got to the thick bit and the centre was actually raw. To be honest there wasn't a whole lot left at that point though, hence not chancing it.
:p
For future reference, being sick as a preventative measure is highly unlikely to stop any food poisoning as by that time any bacteria would be comfortably ensconced and being sick is never going to empty your entire stomach contents! - although it might provide some peace of mind I wouldn't recommend it! Also bear in mind the bacteria which cause food poisoning are quite fragile (i.e. salmonella killed at c.85C) so if it's hot to touch, even if not 'cooked', then it's probably ok. :)
But I had fun, that's the important thing!
Would it not decrease the risk at all? I am of course no biology expert but I would have thought a small dose of bacteria would be better than a large one?
vBulletin® v3.7.4, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.