View Full Version : Bitten by the Mac bug!
My parents have used apples for the past year or so, and I've started to use them completely customising my profile and doing all the configs/installations I want to make it do what I want to do.
So far so good. There are still a few little things I need to investigate first before I'm convinced - but I have to say I'm loving it. I'm not going to lose the PC as it's useful to have it (and for gaming) - however I may have to lose a laptop (HP Nc6320 top spec so probably at least £500s worth of laptop) to justify the expenditure.
I'd be looking at the 2.5GHz macbook pro - I'm currently using the 17" MBP 2.33GHz and it's a great piece of kit.
Once I'm sure of the software/compatibility side of things and if I know I can shift the laptop then I'll be pretty convinced.
LeperousDust
23-03-2008, 22:10
Get out! :p
Hey it's my thread - YOU get out :p I'm not going 100% cold turkey, I'll be keeping the desktop :) It's still not definite, I'm just toying with the idea and the idea is enjoying being toyed with...
I know the feeling :D
I was originally planning to get a Macbook until I had to buy a laptop faster than planned so didn't have the funds for a Mac.
Determined to at some point though :)
The more I use them the more I like 'em. Plus they just look cool :D Once I'm sure of some of the compatibility issues I'll be putting up the laptop for sale either on ebay or somewhere (here even if people are interested) and take it from there. I'll see how I fair first - I'm going to give it more of a thorough tonking first.
Macbooks are getting better I think. My main gripe with them is the relative expense! You get an attractive, high spec laptop for approximately 1.5-2x the market rate for an equivalent non-mac. I personally couldn't justify that when the only "benefit" is OSX. Not slating OSX (although its not my cup of tea) but it does seem like a lot of money to strangle what you would normally do on a computer. Certain apps run far faster on a Mac, most notably media editing type apps which is why so many design people use them for their work but for everything else I found them to be frustrating.
I suppose the wealth of software for Macs nowadays might help you adjust faster than in years gone by etc and certainly tools like VMWare Fusion will help you when you just absolutely must run a Windows-Based application (or even dual-boot) but then once you are going down that road for more and more things, why not just get an equivalent spec laptop, pocket the difference and run Windows (or Linux, or even OSX!)
Unless of course the real reason you want one is to join in the big "I have an Apple product" circlejerk developing around the world? :p
I don't "do" fashion, or follow stereotypes or masses, I've just been using them more and more and have grown the prefer their usability over windows which i'm now getting bored of having used windows/dos for over 15 years.
Once of my machines is already running Linux, and well, it's a bore trying to get it to do things sometimes. I just fancy a change, I'll be using parallels, or crossover, or even boot camp. If you can install osx on a core duo laptop then sure I'll give that a go first. :) It's just the more i use a Mac the more I hate windows, and I'm not enough of a geek to use linux really.
Sitting on the fence here, doesn't a Linux box work just as well, Will?
Not really - I have to spend hours working out how the hell to do something simple such as play a DVD (this was a while ago), if I want to sync my phone it doesn't work, if I want to connect the wireless AND the cable (which I do sometimes) it goes bonkers, I can't trouble shoot linux - I have issues with slow wireless traffic (streaming video from my NAS box) on my windows partition it works fine, so I know it must be a driver problem - and I have no idea how to fix it - and I can't be bothered.
I mean don't get me wrong, Linux is great considering it's free - but it's just SO complicated, I just want things to "work". I'm bored of Vista, it drives me nuts and it's just not brilliant IMO. I've been using a mac for about 2 months now and it's REALLY growing on me - I'm not a geek anymore, I don't want to spend hours playing with software to make the computer boot 2s faster, I don't want to recompile a kernel or whatever just to get some benefit, I don't really understand how it all works, and I don't want to understand how it works anymore, I just don't care. I just want it to work.
Look at it this way, Damon Hill, fantastic racing driver, knows what the car's telling him, knows how to make it do what it needs to do, exploits it and gets amazing results. He doesn't need to knwo about the combustion engine, or changing compression ratios, or if it's running lean/rich, he doesn't need to have the understanding of all the electronics and mechanics of the car to achieve the best out of it, he just needs to use the bloody thing - the engineers do all the geeky stuff - he just puts their efforts into practice.
I'm bored of doing hardcore computing, I don't want to spend hours tweaking things, vista/windows is just getting on my tits now, linux is cool because it's free but it's just too complicated for a mere simpleton like me.
I'm not going to get rid of my pc anyway, this is my laptop we're talking about - which I use A LOT. I just fancy an upgrade, and I've been using the mac for a bit and I've grown to REALLY like it. I've given MS a fair go over 15 years of use, but you know what? It's taken me 2 months to fall for a mac - I think it's pretty evident how my mindscape has changed.
Look at it this way, Damon Hill, fantastic racing driver, knows what the car's telling him, knows how to make it do what it needs to do, exploits it and gets amazing results. He doesn't need to knwo about the combustion engine, or changing compression ratios, or if it's running lean/rich, he doesn't need to have the understanding of all the electronics and mechanics of the car to achieve the best out of it, he just needs to use the bloody thing - the engineers do all the geeky stuff - he just puts their efforts into practice.
Perhaps not the best example, seeing as what makes a good driver great, is his knowledge of how his car works, what needs tweaking to get it to its best etc.
Erm not really, you don't see him with a laptop plugged in and with a socket set in his hands? Yes he can say "it doesn't seem very positive on the throttle" or "the brakes seem to be pulling the left" or something like that, he can say yes there's a flat spot here or there, but he won't necessarily know how to fix it. Anyway that's a moot point the analogy stands and is solid as far as I'm concerned, my point was clear in what I was trying to say. What makes a good driver great, is being able to react and be at one with the car, have the skill to know how to exploit it, the knowledge of how it does it isn't as important. Besides this is straying from what I was trying to say :p
Each to their own, I am certainly not going to preach against any choices in this sort of thing - do whatever suits you and your uses best!
Linux is trying hard, its almost there now really. I mean compared to how it used to be its infinitely better. Your only problems come when you have something slightly different to the norm when it comes to hardware and stuff like that. In comparison, Apple have it much easier because they restrict what hardware you can and cant run it on so that they dont have to bother with any drivers. Until the intel macs arrived, getting hardware that actually worked properly with a Mac was a nightmare!
I have Linux on my laptop and that is all I have with me at the moment and I haven't once missed Windows, there is nothing that I want to do at the moment that I can't and I don't have my VirtualBoxed XP VM running at all. EDIT: and that was after maybe 2 hours of setting up, I would spend longer on a Windows box finding / downloading apps!
OSX can be installed on any CPU with SSE3 - certainly give it a go before chucking a perfectly good laptop :) Not legal but then I don't suppose anyone will mind terribly ;)
I don't know why anyone would hate Windows though, sure its what you are used to etc but hate? No reason to hate what is actually a fantastic OS!
I wouldn't be opposed to trying it on my laptop, if I could find out how to install it. Legalities are at my discretion to observe or not - I have mac OS x discs here but they won't boot on a non apple computer I don't think....
Hate is probably too strong a word, I started using microsoft stuff whilst you were still at primary school (just having a friendly poke mate don't get grumpy ;)) and I've grown up with it and am very competent using it - however I'm getting a little bit jaded and bored of it and just fancy a change.
If I had your savvy and skill I'd choose Linux in a heartbeat - but I'm not interested in learning to be a Linux god - it's just too complicated for me. I've installed and got most of the stuff working on Linux, it's just not THAT simple to do things when you don't know how to hell to do it - I love Linux and I wish I was more of a geek to be able to use it. However I don't care about geeky stuff anymore, I have more important things to worry about in my life, I don't spend hours fiddling with the computer, I just want to use it to do my work.
I just fancy a change that's all - this is not a MS slating thread, this is not a Linux is **** thread either, in fact I love Linux - I'm just not skilled enough to use it - I have an IT helpdesk at work that I can use. As I said, I've been using a mac extensively for 2 months now and it just REALLY works for me. Just like some people like blondes and other brunnettes - each to their own.
I mean Durz, if I had the time you've dedicated to being a bit of a Linux expert I think it would be a no brainer - but it's just not for me unfortunately :(
Funnily enough, I too started using MS products while I was in primary school :p ;)
I wouldn't call myself a Linux "expert" either, not by any stretch, Sure I know more than the average Linux newcomer etc and I learn fast but there are people here that know lots more than me, they just perhaps don't look into the darker/newer corners of what it can do. :shrug:
If you fancy a change, have the money and like OSX enough to completely replace any other OS, get a Mac. Personally I would rather spend the same money and get the better-specced Vaio model that is competing with the Air (and I don't particularly like Sony stuff) but there is probably something "pure" about running OSX on a Mac. Their trackpad technology on the new ones is pretty sweet, for a start :)
Theres numerous blog entries out there showing that Apple kit really isn't that expensive. Sure you can get cheap PC's but there is a reason why you pay for a Mac and thats because its a complete package that, as many will say, just works. Now I have a degree in Sofware Engineering. I've built many computers and been your classic geek since about the age of 6. I was coding on my C64 at 6 and I did that for about 20 years before finding photography. I found that once I gave up computers as a hobby I just didn't care about them. Ugh at the latest driver revision for every tiny bit of hardware. Keeping everything up to date just because I'm *that* geeky and need to be running the latest version. After swapping lifestyles I just stopped caring, and thats why I love the Mac because it does just work. People will say its not that hard keeping a Windows box up to date, and its not. I did it for years. It is, however, really nice not having to do that.
If you use a Mac for a while you'll love the little things. The things that aren't advertised. Quicksilver (http://youtube.com/watch?v=l5cnTxnDtEY) will change the way you use a computer and you'll hate anyone who doesn't have it, and there is nothing in any way that comes close to it on Windows. It integrates with everything. Growl for event notifications so you can customize how you get told about all those little events like when a download is done, when someone sends you an msn, when someone twitters, all sorts. Skitch for screenshots. I didn't really do screenshots before I got Skitch. Its so quick. Apple + shift + 1, draw a box around whatever then I hit upload and it lastly copy link. Within 30 seconds I've got a link to something I just screenshotted. I can also add text, arrows and whatever. Time Machine for backing up is great. Plug in ext usb drive and it'll perform hourly backups of whatevers updated. It won't popup telling you theres no drive to backup to if you unplug it. As they say, it just works. I love that when I plug in my iPod it copies my new music, music I love, new podcasts, all my photos, contacts, events in iCal (including calendars I've subscribed to online) and stuff is all there. Just by plugging it in. Its that level of design that you get with Apple, and 3rd party developers. They seem to take pride in the OS and make sure that their apps don't just offer good features but also look good.
Now I know a lot of people think "Apple, pfft. Fashionable trend whore computer that fanboys own." I'm hardly fashionable and just to point out that I'm not a fanboy there are issues. Apple's Aperture was a mess. Very sluggish program. I wouldn't say the OS itself is really any faster than my old Windows box. A mate of mine with a Mac Pro and 8gb of ram said that he still finds it beachballs now and then. Beachballing is the classic busy pointer while your app is off chatting up girls. Lightroom isn't any faster. Photoshop isn't. iTunes isn't. I didn't switch for the speed, I switched for the little things. Its the little things that keep people using Linux or Windows. I mean they all basically do the same thing. They're all using a standard WIMP interface. What I love about OSX is the level of customization I get without descending into editing txt files like on Linux. I love that the programs I used daily on Windows, Photoshop and Lightroom, all work fine.
In the 2 years or so that I've been using a Mac I've never had a compatibility issue with Windows. Top OSX apps (http://osx.iusethis.com/top) to get an idea of whats out there. I'd say go for it. If you really need anything on Windows run Parallels. Switch :)
leowyatt
24-03-2008, 00:50
Will, if you want to try before you buy look at osx86.org, that should be a good starting point, oh and welcome to the fold :D
Yeah I'm looking into osx86.org at the moment. :)
I have a high end laptop already Durz, so I'm not bothered about Vaios which I hate! :p I will try the "free" ;) Osx installation thingies I've found and see how I get on with it on a more day to day basis. As I said I'm not going to rid myself of my PC as it's a pretty decent box and I love COD4 too much :p Just the laptop for now. Though the mac mini we've got here is pretty cool too.
PEte - that's EXACTLY how I feel about it. And thanks for some of your input it's really helped. :)
Durz - you're more of an expert than most people I know, and fortunately you have the time and interest in learning how to be better at it, I don't, I just don't have the patience or the time. :)
From my experiences of Macs so far it has just been really pleasant. I've even just managed to sync my windows mobile telephone to it! :cool: I've got prallels running on a trial period, and boot camp - and it just works so nicely. So far I've been able to do all the things I need to do, edit documents, do emails, customise folders and file locations organise the OS in such a way as to make it more efficient for me, and it's just gets on with it and I don't have to worry about it either. Like Pete says, I just don;'t care about computers enough to worry about what's going on I just want to use it with minimal fiddling.
There is no denying that a lot of Mac users are extremely fanboyish. Its an inescapable trait of an awful lot of the people that talk about them on the internet.
That aside, your point about using them for any length of time - I have one in the Shock studio (G3 iMac) and its awful to use for the things I use a computer for. Its the little things that I want to be able to do that I just cant on a mac, for whatever reason.
An example would be where a DHCP server gives out a lease with no default gateway information. Its unix-based, so I really ought to be able to set it but no, as far as I could tell after about 40 minutes of trying, it cannot be done. If I cannot customise something as basic (to me) as that, its not useful. I suppose it might be possible and I just don't know the OS well enough, but if thats the case why is it so counter-intuitive to do things that are just slightly outside the box?
The Tagline "Think Different" is an interesting one, because in my (comparatively limited) experience of Macs, they force you to learn a new way of doing everything for relatively little gain apart from these tiny customisations - fair enough if thats your thing, but you're not thinking differently - chances are everyone who becomes a Mac "power user" uses exactly the same tools in almost exactly the same way, just like on Windows.
Oh and fwiw, PC and Mac are the same thing bar a chip that tells the OS that its actually a Mac so it doesn't bugger itself :p x86 ftw ;)
leowyatt
24-03-2008, 09:45
I agree with what Pete said here. I bought my iBook because I'm tired of having to play around with the hardware, drivers, etc. I want something that will simply work when I switch it on and do what I need it to do. I have to say though that yes macs are a little more expensive than PCs but with the software I'm happy to pay the extra price. One example of excellent software is iLife, you don't get anything like that with Vista/XP.
My boss at work has always been a PC person. When I bought my iBook, I took it into work to show him. He couldn't get his head round why I'd pay more for something when a normal windows laptop would do exactly the same for less and why you would buy an iMac when a £400 Windows desktop machine would suffice. Christmas last year he went out and bought himself an 20" iMac and is now championing macs to everyone he knows. His favourite statement is "it just works" which is does.
What OS are you running on the G3 iMac? Surely if you look in system preferences and then network everything you need is there? Admittedly if you're using OS9 then things are a little different but if you put anything like Panther on there then the system because so much more useful.
Oh and fwiw, PC and Mac are the same thing bar a chip that tells the OS that its actually a Mac so it doesn't bugger itself :p x86 ftw ;)
It happened 2 years ago, get over it :p There was a report once about Vista or XP running faster on a top Macbook Pro than any other laptop. People who buy Mac's buy them because they want a well designed box with an OS that'll just work and let them enjoy using the tool for their job. The brilliantly done backlit keyboard that knows when to come on and goes off when you're not typing. The magnetic power cord so you don't yank your computer off the table. Built-in webcam nicely hidden away so its not intrusive. Oooh quicklook too. Quickly preview any file by hitting space. Quicker than double clicking it. Previews everything from pdfs to mp3s to avis. Anyways, I'm surprised no-ones thrown the right click thing in yet ;)
gayer :p
bi actually. :rolleyes: :p
you can always rely on me to be constructive :D
actually I worked for an Apple dealer from about 1984 to 1998 as the first Macs came out ( the 128 then the 512 and the plus ) we were the first folks ( I think ) to design hard disks for Macs ( even before Apple sold them ) and used to sell modified Mac plusses with internal SCSI disks
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c369/wilko1974/135801266_6f5ea6e102_o.gif
Jeebus, that pic brings back some memories :D
Jeebus, that pic brings back some memories :D
Daleks ? ;D
How many Daleks do you know that say "Hello"? ;D
:confused:
lost me there :D
It's on the screen in the Mac picture :p
ah , wondering if anyone remembers the old mac game "daleks" :)
I'm at work currently building a Mac-in-dell (http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?showtopic=45994&st=146) using a Dell D620 laptop. It's a shame that's not a build specificially for a Toshiba laptop or else I'd have called it a Mac-in-tosh which I think is quite a natty name.
Question to the OSX fanboys in this thread:
If OSX is so fantastic, why cant you buy it?
@Feek - Make sure you've got the integrated Intel graphics, and not the Quadro NVS add-on if you're going to do that. :)
@DRZ - because Apple only support their own hardware, not the eleventy million combinations of arcane and confusing hardware that Windows supposedly has to work with (and all-too-often doesn't). In short, OS X is good for Macs.
PS - I don't qualify as a fanboy. Horses for courses. :)
@Feek - Make sure you've got the integrated Intel graphics, and not the Quadro NVS add-on if you're going to do that. :)
@DRZ - because Apple only support their own hardware, not the eleventy million combinations of arcane and confusing hardware that Windows supposedly has to work with (and all-too-often doesn't). In short, OS X is good for Macs.
PS - I don't qualify as a fanboy. Horses for courses. :)
;) Good that you can concentrate on how pretty your pop-ups are when you don't have to worry about it working or not. :p
Question to the OSX fanboys in this thread:
If OSX is so fantastic, why cant you buy it?
Here ya go (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mac-OS-X-Leopard-1-User/dp/B000FK88JK/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1206545715&sr=8-1). :p
If OSX is so fantastic, why cant you buy it?
Eh? It's in the store to buy right now. Or am I missing your point?
Should have known that someone would misinterpret what I meant knowing full well what I meant ;)
I've still got no idea what you're talking about ;D
@DRZ - because Apple only support their own hardware, not the eleventy million combinations of arcane and confusing hardware that Windows supposedly has to work with (and all-too-often doesn't). In short, OS X is good for Macs.
Yet the BSD its based on is compatible with huge swathes of architectures and hardware.
Yet the BSD its based on is compatible with huge swathes of architectures and hardware.
Theres a difference between compatible and knowing the exact hardware inside your laptop.
For me this whole debate basically rests on 1 thing. Adobe. Adobe do not write native apps for Linux so instantly its not an OS I'll use. I don't care how good it is. No Photoshop / Lightroom, no install. Do *NOT* suggest the gimp :p Its completely different to Lightroom and totally unsuitable for me. So basically its Windows or OSX. I've been using Windows since 3.11 and its boring really. Vista is lots of flashing things without polish. Out the two OSX is nicer to use on a daily basis. Its not faster, and its not able to make the perfect round of toast. It just suits my lifestyle and has apps I know I'd miss if I had to go back to Windows. So its more expensive, but so are SE & Nokia phones over some crappy Samsung or Motorola and you pay the extra because the phone is nicer to use.
And because it gives what people wants...
I've never said that OSX isnt good at what it does, but people tend to put OSX on this pedestal as the single greatest OS ever to grace computing. Ultimately, I couldn't give a stuff which OS people use but macevangelists or indeed fanboys of anything at all really bug me.
There are pros and cons for everything, and that includes OSX...
But of course. Windows was obviously a good OS or I wouldn't have used it for over 10 years. OSX is "better" for what I do now. I don't really think anyone is being overly fanboyish here. I know I've seen a lot worse. The funny thing though is, and no offence intended, but popping into a thread saying "If OSX is so good how come you can't buy it." sorta seems a bit, well silly. I'm guessing your point was how come you can't buy it for any PC since its basically x86 with some snooty line of code that looks for the iDongle in the hardware. You could easily say if Linux was so good how come we all aren't using it, since its free n all. People are happy to buy Windows over downloading a Linux iso because it does what they need. I'm happy to buy a Mac because it does what I need in a nicer way to Windows.
I'm obviously preaching to the converted, but I'll say it anyway - asking why people buy OS X, or even why they buy Windows, is really the wrong question anyway, since the vast majority get 'given' (as in included in the price) one or the other with the hardware they buy.
I'd like to use OSX as I've never had the pleasure.
I may badger Kitten and Leo to see if I can have a go with their Mac.
I'm obviously preaching to the converted, but I'll say it anyway - asking why people buy OS X, or even why they buy Windows, is really the wrong question anyway, since the vast majority get 'given' (as in included in the price) one or the other with the hardware they buy.
But only because Apple make it that way. If OSX was a real choice for the average man on the street you WOULD see PCs coming with either no OS (unlikely) or the choice of the two. Sadly it isn't, and so its confined to the specialist user that is prepared to fork out for the specific hardware required to run it. At some stage in the process, an operating system is purchased, pedanticism or not.
People DO buy operating systems, many people have gone out and bought Vista (I did, others on here I believe have, many on OcUK have etc etc).
The funny thing though is, and no offence intended, but popping into a thread saying "If OSX is so good how come you can't buy it." sorta seems a bit, well silly. I'm guessing your point was how come you can't buy it for any PC since its basically x86 with some snooty line of code that looks for the iDongle in the hardware.
My point was that if Apple were as convinced about the qualities of their OSs as their vast fanboy base is, why isnt it on general sale to anyone regardless of hardware? I believe the fact of the matter is that they cant - in order for them to maintain this faux moral high ground about everything "just working" simply wouldn't be the case if they didn't have a cast-iron grip over every facet of what hardware it is expected to interact with.
I know it probably reads differently because you've got an OSX-shaped axe to grind but I honestly do not have a problem with this OS, why would I? I have a 'problem' with the attitudes of the bulk of people that use them when it comes to anyone that dare compare it to anything else, or dare say that people buy Apple products generally as fashion accessories (which is true, look at the iPod and iPhone for clear examples of "its a crap product compared to the rest of the market but I just have to have one")
I dont get the Linux comparisons - I completely 'get' why its not ready for the desktop, I have never said otherwise. Its almost there and people are starting to recognise that. My parents ran Ubuntu happily for ages before they realised it wasn't Windows, which is a pretty good sign. The sad fact is that the vast bulk of software is coded for Windows and that really is the thorn in the side of Linux at the moment. OSX has Adobe to thank for its success, without them, would you be using a Mac right now? Thats all it will take for a Linux to really gain ground.
look at the iPod and iPhone for clear examples of "its a crap product compared to the rest of the market but I just have to have one")
Sorry - just had to focus on those points. The Ipod certainly isn't crap.
I've had one for three-four years and it has been awesome and I don't own any other mac bits and I don't show it off.
It sounds good and plays the music I put on.
Compared to the rest of the market? You telling me for real that you couldn't have got a better audio device for the same or less money?
Not which works as well for me, no. I've tried the Zen and a couple of other devices, ipods really do work really well at what they do and the interface is simple, easy and effective. I'm not a fanboy, but I do like their products I think they're very cleverly marketed and well market researched.
I know it probably reads differently because you've got an OSX-shaped axe to grind but I honestly do not have a problem with this OS, why would I? I have a 'problem' with the attitudes of the bulk of people that use them when it comes to anyone that dare compare it to anything else, or dare say that people buy Apple products generally as fashion accessories (which is true, look at the iPod and iPhone for clear examples of "its a crap product compared to the rest of the market but I just have to have one")
I'm sorry but once you start saying things like that you've just become yet another "Anti-Apple" fanboy type. "Oh god its just a fashion accessory. Its so rubbish. You're all sheep. Baaaaa silly white sheep." Let me think. Amount of times I've thought "Do these shoes go with my iPod?" That'd be none simply because its not a fashion accessory. Pros n cons remember. Yes there are better sounding audio players out there, and which ones work perfectly with iTunes, iPhoto, iCal, have email, wifi, and Apple's UI design? Yet another half decent Apple thread descends into madness full of stupid cliches and stereotypes. Now if anyone needs me I'll be painting my self white so hot girls can touch me and carry me around as a fashion accessory ;)
(which is true, look at the iPod and iPhone for clear examples of "its a crap product compared to the rest of the market but I just have to have one")
The old ones maybe, the iPod Touch dicks on everything else i've used from a great height in most departments.
when I got my first ipod, the alternatives were few, far between and horrendously expensive (i had a 128k which cost me around £120 quid) which held far less songs and was far less fluid than the pod.
The i-pod was revolutionary when it came out, and yes competitors have brought out versions that work differently, so to some better. Purists will still love the i-pod for it's fluidity and its style. This goes hand in hand for me with the functionality, it certainly doesn't outweigh it.
My current model is the 8gig video ipod that I got for around £90. I really do not believe there is a better alternative out there that is so hassle free.
I think Durz you have to understand that the 'attitudes' you speak of here
come as a direct result of the way you put your arguments across. As you've said in the quote, you have a problem with the way people react when you put your point across, then you reiterate hat your point is correct. So really, you don't like people getting an attitude with you when you put your point forward, they explain their reasons and you still keep coming back and arguing - are you suprised people get the hump when you argue with their opinion? It's their opinion, not yours - maybe you could learn to accept that and not argue with it and you might find people annoy you less.
I get annoyed when I tell people why I use Macs and they come back with 'you could do this with this, or that, or that - you don't have to use a mac'. I really don't care. I've used them for years and will continue to do so until it doesn't do for me what I need it to.
You ask a question, you get an answer. I'm not asking you to show me the way and I'm not asking you to argue or agree with my point of view. I'm answering your question, I didn't ask you to point out the flaws in it.
Back to the attitude issue, you might find that people find it quite annoying when they have something that they really like and really enjoy because they do - for whatever reason, and someone comes along and insists that their choice is crap, their ipod is rubbish, their machine of choice is an overpriced toy for fanboys who prefer style over function - do you really wonder why people have an attitude with you?
Pretty much everyone here has answered you and told you why they use Macs but you're still arguing.... or at least still debating....
Until other people turned the tone of the thread on its head I think that I was being pretty kind to OSX, it was only when responding to points that other people made that things nose-dived.
Yeah, I do think that some Apple products aren't as good as the competition and yes, you can get better but thats not being agressive, derisory or anything like that, I just can't understand the following they have - looking at it objectively for a moment, why would anyone want an iPhone when it lacks 'basic' features and costs the earth for it?! The iPod has a horrendously flawed output stage which is audible (to me, for the music I listen to) despite an innovative control system. I turn on my MP3 player, hit play, put it in my pocket and forget about it - so the UI isn't all that.
The iPod Touch is kind of a hybrid device and the stuff it does makes it a fantastic device, but thats because its more than an MP3 player despite the iPod tag (imo).
Oh and for the love of god, I do not have a U in my handle.
Do you want these toys back or can I keep them? I haven't even seen your handle :p
*sigh*
No toys were hurt in the making of that post. Sat here with a smile.
It does annoy me though.
Well I started the thread mainly as I was sharing my excitement at potentially starting to use a Mac - I didn't want this thread to be turned into an apple vs everything else - it's obvious some people aren't interested in entertaining the idea of other products just as some people are sick of others - but I didn't want this to be the case.
Can we just say horses for courses? Some people think macs kick ass, some people don't "get" them, and let it be at that?
Yes, the audio output stages on most - certainly the older - iPods are not the best in the business, and their headphones certainly aren't, but save for the headphones which are easily and relatively cheaply replaced is the average man on the street who hasn't had the benefit of high-end audio experience, acoustic chambers and whatever else really going to notice, especially when they're playing an inherently lossy file format anyway? Even WAV and FLAC are lossy if you want to be that pedantic about it (not that the iPod supports them). :)
Average guy on the street isn't going to have any clue with some of the hoops some of us (myself included) go through to get the best quality CD rips. While I admit I think I can hear a quality improvement with my new rips I suspect it's just placebo. My hearing really isn't that good.
Yes, Apple do go a lot for design. Yes, you pay a premium for that and the brand, and yes, fanboys lap it up. All that said, you don't achieve the success that the iPod has on the back purely of design. Apple got in first with the best end-to-end experience with iTunes and the iPod, and like it or not, the rest of the market had to play catch-up.
If you don't care for Apple's products, that's fine with me - don't buy them. I don't particularly like iPods either due to their closed nature, which is why I've never bought one - though I'll admit to at least a small hankering after an iTouch (note - not the iPhone). However, not that I accuse you of doing this even though you did use the word, please don't go around telling everyone else they made crap choices. They just made different choices, for different reasons.
*snip*.
I really need to start making things painfully clear don't I? I am not specifically talking about anybody here, or their choices. I didn't say anyone made a crap choice, nor did I say I don't care for Apple products. I am talking generally, about the general view of the general public.
You don't have to have the best or even a good product to have a big or the biggest market share. McDonalds, Vauxhall (by and large), Sony, Bose....
Thats my point. They get lauded as the be all and end all by people who largely don't know better (which I will be forced no doubt into explicitly stating is nobody in this thread).
You know, the iPod Touch might well prove to be the single best Apple product ever made! If it could phone people (discounting VOIP here) it would walk all over the iPhone...
Well I started the thread mainly as I was sharing my excitement at potentially starting to use a Mac - I didn't want this thread to be turned into an apple vs everything else - it's obvious some people aren't interested in entertaining the idea of other products just as some people are sick of others - but I didn't want this to be the case.
Can we just say horses for courses? Some people think macs kick ass, some people don't "get" them, and let it be at that?
If you are referring to me there (which you blatantly are as I seem to be the only person here with the stones to stand up to this blatant fanboy parade :p ;)) then I'll have you know I have wanted a Mac Mini for ages and I would buy a Macbook Pro tomorrow if they weren't so damned expensive (and I had the money).
Of course, I would remove that piece of **** excuse of an operating system and install a proper one, but there we go ;) :p :D
You know, the iPod Touch might well prove to be the single best Apple product ever made! If it could phone people (discounting VOIP here) it would walk all over the iPhone...
How so?
They're by and large the same thing, just the iPhone has more features and gets its software updates for free...
If the iTouch could phone people it'd just be a slightly less crippled iPhone.
Or are you referring purely to the expense of it compared to an iPhone?
How so?
They're by and large the same thing, just the iPhone has more features and gets its software updates for free...
If the iTouch could phone people it'd just be a slightly less crippled iPhone.
Or are you referring purely to the expense of it compared to an iPhone?
The iPhone needs that something to make up for its pitfalls, the iTouch does almost everything a good PDA phone can do, if the two merged at a sane price then it would be attractive...
I really need to start making things painfully clear don't I? I am not specifically talking about anybody here, or their choices. I didn't say anyone made a crap choice, nor did I say I don't care for Apple products. I am talking generally, about the general view of the general public.
You don't have to have the best or even a good product to have a big or the biggest market share. McDonalds, Vauxhall (by and large), Sony, Bose....
Thats my point. They get lauded as the be all and end all by people who largely don't know better (which I will be forced no doubt into explicitly stating is nobody in this thread).
You know, the iPod Touch might well prove to be the single best Apple product ever made! If it could phone people (discounting VOIP here) it would walk all over the iPhone...
If you are referring to me there (which you blatantly are as I seem to be the only person here with the stones to stand up to this blatant fanboy parade :p ;)) then I'll have you know I have wanted a Mac Mini for ages and I would buy a Macbook Pro tomorrow if they weren't so damned expensive (and I had the money).
Of course, I would remove that piece of **** excuse of an operating system and install a proper one, but there we go ;) :p :D
:p
No mate I wasn't singling anyone out - I was just talking about the riling in general that seems to be happening in my thread :p Besides I agreed with most of what you said early on in the thread. :)
Until other people turned the tone of the thread on its head I think that I was being pretty kind to OSX, it was only when responding to points that other people made that things nose-dived.
Yeah, I do think that some Apple products aren't as good as the competition and yes, you can get better but thats not being agressive, derisory or anything like that, I just can't understand the following they have - looking at it objectively for a moment, why would anyone want an iPhone when it lacks 'basic' features and costs the earth for it?! The iPod has a horrendously flawed output stage which is audible (to me, for the music I listen to) despite an innovative control system. I turn on my MP3 player, hit play, put it in my pocket and forget about it - so the UI isn't all that.
The iPod Touch is kind of a hybrid device and the stuff it does makes it a fantastic device, but thats because its more than an MP3 player despite the iPod tag (imo).
Oh and for the love of god, I do not have a U in my handle.
Hang on...I'll get my oscilloscope out and try to tell the difference between players.
As has been said - the Ipod is good. It plays everything I throw at it, it lasts ages and has good audio quality.
I'm not about to go testing frequency responses and such like.
The iPhone needs that something to make up for its pitfalls, the iTouch does almost everything a good PDA phone can do, if the two merged at a sane price then it would be attractive...
Perhaps that something will come in the next software update from the SDK, along with all the Exchange compatibility things.
Hang on...I'll get my oscilloscope out and try to tell the difference between players.
As has been said - the Ipod is good. It plays everything I throw at it, it lasts ages and has good audio quality.
I'm not about to go testing frequency responses and such like.
Use your ears, they are better than any oscilloscope. The difference, to me at least (and many others) is clear as day.
Its not about the numbers (although they are there to be tested if you want to be that anal) but about the music. Music sounds noticeably better to me on my iAudio X5 and so thats the better player for me. If you prefer to have a shiny wheel interface or you prefer a glossy finish on the front then thats cool with me, whatever makes you happy :)
FWIW your iPod doesn't play anywhere near the full gamut of available audio formats either, but thats not really the point :)
Blackstar
27-03-2008, 01:45
My favourite apple moment...
Picture the scene, i'm in the car with Petemc and Leo.
Them talking - "....Everyone has an Ipod...."
Me - "I don't" :p
Awww. ;D
And yeah, DRZ is right. iPods won't play FLAC, OGG, WAV, or even, heaven forbid, WMA, but as he so aptly put it, that isn't the point.
I just wish the battery in my X5 wasn't failing on me less than a year after purchase. :'(
And yeah, DRZ is right. iPods won't play FLAC, OGG, WAV, or even, heaven forbid, WMA, but as he so aptly put it, that isn't the point.
They will play WAV :p
Damn. Foiled again. What on earth was Steve Jobs thinking?
;D
Until other people turned the tone of the thread on its head I think that I was being pretty kind to OSX, it was only when responding to points that other people made that things nose-dived.
From what I saw the thread was doing fine till you dropped by to ask (practically bait) the "fanboys" here why you can't buy OSX. Then it got silly. IMHO the Mac users here aren't the hardcore fanboys you hate so don't treat us like it. Just as you hate the hardcore fanboys I also hate those people who label Mac users as fashion whores. I take offense at being told that all my decisions are simply because someone on the front of GQ has a Mac. I bought an old G3 to try OSX to see if I liked it. Then I bought a Mac Mini and tried using it as my daily machine. After about a year or two I was confident and happy enough with OSX that I bought a Macbook Pro and haven't looked back. I've also pointed out many times in this thread that my Mac isn't any faster or better than a normal PC I just prefer it. Originally I never saw a need for an iPod either, but now really enjoy owning one. I don't make quick decisions, I make informed ones that work for me. So you'll forgive me for getting annoyed when I see the same old cliches and stereotypes being thrown around yet another Mac thread where I'm trying to post my honest views on the subject.
I didn't drop by, I was already significantly involved in the thread.
A genuine question too, and I stand by the point I made. Apple need to release it as a product in its own right, after all their platform is no longer different so thats no excuse :p Only then can OSX users judge others for their use of an alternative OS ;)
I have only posted my opinions and judgements of the available tech based on my values and never said otherwise.
Yes I know. You opened with the classic Mac = fashion accessory cliche :p I don't see why they need to release osx to everyone. If anything MS need to make IE availabe on osx and nix more than apple need to release osx. what will it prove? Linux is free and yet doesn't have a giant % of the desktop market. Before you say its not a desktop os its being used that way by plenty I'm sure. I know a few osx users jumped to ubuntu. My old uni considered using Linux as the main desktop os back in 1999. 9 years on and its still not ready as a desktop os?
I was running a Unix-like OS on a Mac circa 1991 - ten years before OS X made that official. I even self-compiled an X11 install for it and used it as a development desktop. Using a one-button mouse on a graphical system designed for three was certainly interesting. :)
As I've said before - horses for courses. I own a Mac but use it more to experiment on. Save for Parallels, I've never purchased a single Mac application (nor downloaded one illegaly), which demonstrates how much I use mine (though it's always switched on and always running iTunes for podcasting and whatnot).
Use your ears, they are better than any oscilloscope. The difference, to me at least (and many others) is clear as day.
Its not about the numbers (although they are there to be tested if you want to be that anal) but about the music. Music sounds noticeably better to me on my iAudio X5 and so thats the better player for me. If you prefer to have a shiny wheel interface or you prefer a glossy finish on the front then thats cool with me, whatever makes you happy :)
FWIW your iPod doesn't play anywhere near the full gamut of available audio formats either, but thats not really the point :)
No I don't prefer to have a shiny wheel. It just works. The battery lasts ages, the screen is nice and it sounds GOOD.
Theres a difference between compatible and knowing the exact hardware inside your laptop.
For me this whole debate basically rests on 1 thing. Adobe. Adobe do not write native apps for Linux so instantly its not an OS I'll use. I don't care how good it is. No Photoshop / Lightroom, no install. Do *NOT* suggest the gimp :p Its completely different to Lightroom and totally unsuitable for me. So basically its Windows or OSX. I've been using Windows since 3.11 and its boring really. Vista is lots of flashing things without polish. Out the two OSX is nicer to use on a daily basis. Its not faster, and its not able to make the perfect round of toast. It just suits my lifestyle and has apps I know I'd miss if I had to go back to Windows. So its more expensive, but so are SE & Nokia phones over some crappy Samsung or Motorola and you pay the extra because the phone is nicer to use.
Definitely no arguments there from me. Vista is a big waste of time.. possibly the first time I've regretted installing an OS from the first week, and looked forward to downgrading next time I could be arsed (which I've done.) Thankfully image editing is not part of my daily job or I'd be continually thwarted by GIMPs quirks and sheer non-user friendliness in places. I had to do something as simple as stitch a series of photos together the other day at work and that took me about 10x longer than it would have done in Paint Shop Pro or Photoshop, but as I'm Linux bound at work that's all I had to use.
My point about BSD is not that folks should use Linux (BSD != Linux), its that OSX, by being BSD, should be very easy for Apple to release to run on PC architecture, opening up a huge market for them. The fact that you can actually install OSX on normal PCs through a few small hacks proves that. Apple could even do it with a "Guaranteed Hardware" list and state that whilst OSX may run on other hardware, you're on your own. With such a large open source technical community out there that have solid knowledge on BSD, it wouldn't take long for the community to get hardware working on it either.
Yes I know. You opened with the classic Mac = fashion accessory cliche :p
No, with tongue firmly in cheek I joked with Will.
Climb down, sonny.
I don't see why they need to release osx to everyone. If anything MS need to make IE availabe on osx and nix more than apple need to release osx. what will it prove? Linux is free and yet doesn't have a giant % of the desktop market. Before you say its not a desktop os its being used that way by plenty I'm sure. I know a few osx users jumped to ubuntu. My old uni considered using Linux as the main desktop os back in 1999. 9 years on and its still not ready as a desktop os?
Because until they release OSX to everyone, you can't fairly compare it to anything else.
There is a gulf of difference between a paid-for piece of software and one developed by people in their spare time when it comes to timescales. Considering its origins and the way it is developed, Linux is awe-inspiring. Its not a company, its a load of amateurs around the world doing things very, very well. It supports more hardware / platforms than any other OS I can think of off the top of my head, and can be configured to be just as pretty as OSX if thats your poison. Software support is getting better - Just like OSX would be dead and buried without 3rd party apps, that is all that is holding Linux back at the moment - and there is no real reason for it! It wont be that long now. Usability is getting better for the man in the street to pick it up. Wall-Mart are selling Linux-based PCs etc etc.
leowyatt
27-03-2008, 11:38
The fact that you can actually install OSX on normal PCs through a few small hacks proves that.
You actually need to buy specific hardware to get it to run on normal PCs. You can install it on any machine but I can guarantee alot of the hardware won't work. You need to buy the hardware that is found in any mac and install it on that machine when built.
I'm happy for the OS to be restricted to specific hardware because I know it will work, I'm also happy to pay the extra for the machine because I get the whole package, hardware and software.
End of the day Drz you will always champion Linux and others here (myself included) will champion OSX.
No, with tongue firmly in cheek I joked with Will.
Climb down, sonny.
Yes I'm well aware that you were joking with Will, hence my :p. Don't sonny me sonny jim. ;)
Because until they release OSX to everyone, you can't fairly compare it to anything else.
Its just an operating system that runs on x86 hardware. Just like Vista, XP, Linux, BeOS.
Have to say I agree with DRZ on the OS X front. Because it works with a limited set of hardware, it can be appear to be more stable. I wonder how it would cope in the big bad world of unlimited hardware combinations?
Not very well at all. :)
But then again, does that really matter? It's quite possible to run Windows and Linux on a Mac, so if you want to do a comparison, you have a platform on which to do it.
PS - Windows runs pretty well save for some very specific Mac hardware quirks. Haven't tried Linux.
But then again, does that really matter? It's quite possible to run Windows and Linux on a Mac, so if you want to do a comparison, you have a platform on which to do it.
Exactly. I don't want to sound too fanboyish but it seems a silly point to score in the epic battle of this vs that. Linux is better because it was designed with multiple hardware configs in mind. If it doesn't work with something you, or some beardy bloke writes the driver for it and away you go. OSX fails at something it wasn't designed to do? Well thats like saying my Corsa is rubbish as a track car unless we do lots of things to it to make it work that way. (Yes I know it'll still be rubbish as a track car because its a Corsa ;))
I think the point DRZ is making though is that everybody praises how stable it is and they give ALL credit to the OS, whereas it's actually an OS/hardware combination.
Yeah it is, but that works both ways - blaming the hardware for an OS fault is just as bad as blaming the OS for crap hardware.
I think I've said all along that Apple are good at the total package. Take part of that away and it soon falls apart like a house of cards.
I must confess I've lost the plot (if there was a plot) with this thread, so I'm not sure where this is going. :)
There is that and as Leo said, its a good package that imho is worth spending that little extra on.
I think the point DRZ is making though is that everybody praises how stable it is and they give ALL credit to the OS, whereas it's actually an OS/hardware combination.
Indeed, it'd be pretty poor on Apple's part if they were only coding for a few different specific hardware combinations and couldn't make it stable.
I must confess I've lost the plot (if there was a plot) with this thread, so I'm not sure where this is going. :)
Me too, and I still can't believe no-ones said you can't right click on a Mac ;) I think there's enough info here for Will to make a decision. I bet he sticks with Windows just to avoid the daily fun of being a Mac user on the internet ;)
Me too, and I still can't believe no-ones said you can't right click on a Mac ;)
Please, use a real mouse. :p ;D
Apple's persistance with one-button mice is one area that does get on my nerves, along with the arcane and completely unnatural keyboard combinations they sometimes like to use. Why insist on requiring two buttons to do a job when one is perfectly acceptable?
Please, use a real mouse. :p ;D
Apple's persistance with one-button mice is one area that does get on my nerves, along with the arcane and completely unnatural keyboard combinations they sometimes like to use. Why insist on requiring two buttons to do a job when one is perfectly acceptable?
Which keyboard combos? Its funny because thats their exact reason for the one button mouse. Give users 2 button to push and they won't know when to use one or t'other. Give them one and they know when to push it. I think all the new mice are Mighty Mice now which can be set to be 2 button or 1.
Exactly. I don't want to sound too fanboyish but it seems a silly point to score in the epic battle of this vs that. Linux is better because it was designed with multiple hardware configs in mind. If it doesn't work with something you, or some beardy bloke writes the driver for it and away you go. OSX fails at something it wasn't designed to do? Well thats like saying my Corsa is rubbish as a track car unless we do lots of things to it to make it work that way. (Yes I know it'll still be rubbish as a track car because its a Corsa ;))
Actually a better analogy would be like Vauxhall releasing the Corsa, but you can only use it if you drive it on Vauxhall-approved roads and use Vauxhall-specific petrol lest it break horribly. :p
Oh I'm still very keen on getting a mac. I like the fact that they're written the software specifically for bits of hardware, that's what makes it so great. Unfortunately windows has it's work cut out owing to all the hybrid machines out there! So in it's defence windows does a stonking job of compiling a big database of drivers and making sure that 9/10 times it works perfectly or with minimal detrimental affects to performance etc... Linux is getting there, and if it wasn't for the fact that you have to be quite technically minded and have the patience of a saint, and be a bit of a geek to use it I'd use it as a main OS - at the moment it's used as a free "different" OS just because. It's still a ballache to use at times if ever anything breaks on it :p However it's no different to other computer issues really - I just don't know how to do stuff with it - it does look pretty though, and all in all just "works" too. I just wish I was a geek (well I don't actually) enough to be able to play with it with little effort - I just don't have the time, patience or energy.
End of the day Drz you will always champion Linux and others here (myself included) will champion OSX.
Actually, I champion common sense. Linux isn't for anyone that doesn't have spare time, OSX is for people that are prepared to pay for it (and the associated hardware required) in return for specific benefits, Windows is for everybody else :p
Aha - looks like some consensus is emerging. Makes perfect sense to me. :)
Actually, I champion common sense. Linux isn't for anyone that doesn't have spare time, OSX is for people that are prepared to pay for it (and the associated hardware required) in return for specific benefits, Windows is for everybody else :p
I'd agree with that. Well basically it's because it's what I've also been saying! :D
Mohinder
27-03-2008, 23:25
Please, use a real mouse. :p ;D
Apple's persistance with one-button mice is one area that does get on my nerves, along with the arcane and completely unnatural keyboard combinations they sometimes like to use. Why insist on requiring two buttons to do a job when one is perfectly acceptable?
All the macs that come with mice currently come with mice that have four buttons. Left, right, squeeze (which is, in fairness, the worst idea for a mouse button ever) and the mouse ball on the top is a button too.
The laptops, you either tap with two fingers, or hold two fingers on the trackpad and click the mouse button, to get a right click.
So :p yah boo sucks
Chuckles
28-03-2008, 01:16
A lot of Apple hardware is from extremes. Their latest keyboard (same as the one I'm typing on now) is fantastic - Probably the best one I've ever used. However that mighty mouse thing is awful.
Mohinder
28-03-2008, 02:26
I really like the wired mighty mouse, I've never had a problem with them. The bluetooth ones, however, are awful. It's totally the wrong shape for a heavyish wireless mouse... it's like a really heavy bar of soap! And the right click doesn't work properly. Gash.
http://img.skitch.com/20080328-xi31qs166hmwy6nkju9afcdjea.jpg
Three days it took me!
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