GTA IV

[leowyatt]

I thought it might be a good idea to start it's own thread :)

So to kick if off I've just started reading this (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/863/863028p1.html) article on IGN and it's immense (the amount, not content). Have read if you have a spare 30 minutes, there is a follow up article on Monday.

[Davey_Pitch]

Read the first couple of pages of that yesterday, and I'm leaving the rest till I'm in work for something to do when bored. The game is shaping up incredibly well from everything I've read so far.

[Haly]

That article's massive :eek:
I'm not sure if/when I'm getting GTA4. I can never quite decide with GTA games, I've owned every single one but I always end up bored well before completing them :/
Might wait a few weeks after release as I expect there to be a fair few pre-owned by then much like with most of the new releases (Halo 3 had dozens of pre-owned copies within a week in my local store).

[petemc]

I never play the actual game. Well, I play enough to unlock everything then I go nuts. Thats probably why I loved Crackdown as it was basically go nuts and blow stuff up. I think I might try harder with GTA4. That article is stupidly large and I really wish there was a pdf version so I could easily read it. IGN's site is too busy to casually read.

[leowyatt]

What I'll do is create one long post will it all in :)

[leowyatt]

US, March 28, 2008 - Grand Theft Auto IV, coming to PS3 and 360 April 29, is arguably the most anticipated game of the year. And with good reason. Rockstar is offering gamers a chance to explore the most authentic city ever seen in a videogame, complete with compelling storyline, and a hefty multiplayer. But what went into making such a massive game? We spoke with VP of Creative, Dan Houser and Rockstar North Art Director Aaron Garbut to get an in-depth look at the creative process.

The two provided so much information we had to split the discussion into two separate pieces. Today, you'll learn about the origins of GTA IV's story, what makes Niko the best character Rockstar has ever created, learn about the new dynamic relationship system and find out what went into building Liberty City. On Monday, we'll give you the full scoop on the gameplay additions and improvements.



IGN: What is different in GTA IV's story from the previous three games?

Dan Houser: Well hopefully everything. [laughs] We imagined the world from scratch this time. We kept some of the old brands that it felt -- part of the issue is that there were so many brands. There are 400-500 fake brands in the game, so to start from scratch seemed stupid and it was a nice echo from previous games. In terms of the characters, as we were bringing up the quality of the graphics and the physics and the animation, the quality of the writing and story structure were always balanced to reflect those [things]. So if we were going for a more naturalistic style in physics or lighting, we would go with a more naturalistic style with the writing which would only work if -- the reasons we could pull that off and make the cutscenes slightly longer is because we've got such good facial animation that you can afford to be a little bit more slow-paced in them and a little more intimate with some of them. They've got to look beautiful, some of the cut scenes, and they hold the game together nicely.

In terms of how the story is structured, it's still a crime game and he's still a criminal who works for other criminals, because that's the nature of being a criminal. That's what the world we're trying to depict is, but we're trying to make some aspects more subtle and more sophisticated.


Check out the latest trailer.

I think the big things are to make Niko a more rounded character than some of the previous characters, without becoming too imposing because what I feel works well in one of these games is the biggest character is the city. The biggest character that Aaron [Garbut], the Art Director, and his crew make is this world. When I'm playing the game, I've got to feel a tight bond with the guy I'm playing as, so you've got to feel like he doesn't know things you don't know. Like if he's meeting all these people that he knows and [he's] all, "Ah this and ah that and let's go over here." Well you've never been there before, so the [connection] kind of gets broken. But at the same time if he's kind of a complete ghost with no memories or existence before that, he's a very shallow character. You can't end up relating to him.

We gave Niko more of a background, slightly more fleshed out back story than in the past, one that felt easy enough to relate to, to us. And then gave him one relationship he'd know, who is Roman, his cousin. The rest is him exploring the world as you explore the world and meeting people as you meet them.

But, I suppose the fundamental difference is just we've worked on the game for a long time now -- you know, on the GTA games -- we've still got the same guys working on the games as have always worked on them. The team's bigger but it's made up of the same core people, so we're just more experienced at doing it. We know how to do this stuff better having done it as best we could in the past, but it would be pretty boring if we hadn't improved at doing it. With better equipment and more experience, hopefully we can do a better job.

The fundamental other change, it's difficult to talk about this because people get very confused about what we're saying and to think it's multi-branching... There are plenty of sections of the story when you manipulate outcomes and have choice over the outcome as the player, some of which fundamentally change the story, but it's not like there's 10,000 different options because, again, that wouldn't make sense for the character, where he is in the world because he's fundamentally being pushed around by more powerful people. But you have plenty of good points where it makes sense logically, in terms of the choice you're given and narratively, you get to make choices and that's kind of a fun twist on a GTA game.

IGN: How radical a change is the art style from San Andreas?

Aaron Garbut: Like every other facet of the game we took this opportunity to strip things back and start again. I think there's a thread of the original style there but it's much more refined. There's a new grittiness to it and the over saturated texturing and lighting and cartoony feel is gone but we're still not aiming for realism by any means.

When you put a screen from [the first] GTA, GTA III and GTA IV next to each other I think you can trace a stylistic thread through them all and I also think that the jump in detail is similar between each. It's exciting to see how far we've come and to think how far we can still push things.


"Sometimes I get so angry, I don't know what comes over me, baby!"
IGN: What should people take away from the trailer that they might not immediately get just from a first viewing?

Houser: It's good, isn't it?

IGN: I love it. I felt like those first three trailers lead up to it. It's kind of like a big burst.

Houser: We hadn't yet got the thing [in previous trailers] that gave you the visceral quality of the action in the game. Partially because the game wasn't ready at that point. The first trailer was made and the game is running, but it's still rough. The cutscenes are coming on board by the second trailer, so we polish up a few of them to get them in there. This time we've really got action that felt like, '"This is how the game feels."

"We wanted to capture... these kinds of characters who are kind of worn out and broken and that this is their last shot, using this Eastern European guy to try and help them out of this last big hole they've dug for themselves."
We wanted it to be more about the visceral qualities of the game and action and less about story, because the last two trailers have been about setting up a story. This one's about setting up a mood -- The idea that it's actually really difficult to be a criminal today. It's easy to be a guy swindling people on the Internet, but to be a drug dealer or a mob boss or one of these other archetype criminals -- there's so much surveillance, so many ways of capturing you and so many people rat you out that it was really hard. It's like the end of an era.

We wanted to capture that idea in the game and these kinds of characters who are kind of worn out and broken and that this is their last shot, using this Eastern European guy to try and help them out of this last big hole they've dug for themselves. We wanted to capture that mood in the trailer. And then also that feeling of very, very intense action. As the bullets start to ricochet off everything, how does that feel? That's something we're getting in the game for the first time that we couldn't get in the previous games. Because you're picking your own path through it in a way you couldn't before.



IGN: One of the things that I find really interesting about it is just the idea of those kind of relationships and how they work. I've only seen two examples so far: The first is the one on the first date. After the date, I actually pulled out a bat on the girl and I got that scene where Niko's like, "I don't know what came over me, baby!" Obviously that's going to fundamentally change how she views Niko. The other one is where you get a call when you're on the date from your cousin who's in trouble, the loan sharks are after him. Where you can choose whether or not you want to stay on the date or help him out. Can you talk about how that works out, like is that going to be something we're going to see thread throughout the game, those kinds of choices?

Houser: Well, not exactly like that, because we tried to build everything for each mission, but lots of different bits and pieces like that, yeah. We wanted choices in all kinds of ways to be part of the game. In some ways, without, again, wanting to criticize games that we loved making at the time and put a $#!@load of effort in -- we spent a lot of time trying to massively overhaul what we've done in the past -- the feeling was that maybe by San Andreas that some of the missions got too linear. So one thing we wanted to do was put a lot of choice in how you did that mission. There are multiple ways of doing a mission, and then at the end of them, some of them, you have a choice, "what do you do or do you not here?" And then there are ramifications from those choices. [We're] trying to meet halfway between, trying to make the gap between the story and the non-story that always felt very defined in previous games. You're either doing a mission or you weren't, and we tried to make the distance between those a little bit closer. So, I saw this guy in a mission -- I don't want to give away too many story spoilers. If stories are going to matter in games, then not talking about them before you've played the game is quite important, but as far as trying to talk about it theoretically. There are missions where you go and you have the cutscene and there's a small character that's out of it... you can bump into later walking around the world, and talk to him then or not. And if you don't then maybe there are ramifications of doing that coming into the story.

It's trying to do a lot of little touches that are quite subtle that the player would only realize if they played through the game, but rather than it feeling like in the old game it was very much like, "well I'm doing a story, or I'm doing this or I'm doing that." [Now] it's all kind of, "you're playing as Niko in this world and here's some things you've got to do for these people you don't like, here's some other people you don't like, here's someone you just met who's a kind of bleeding heart, needs your help on the street, totally different type of character. Well go and help them." We're trying to use the nature of a game, which is wandering around this virtual space, as best we could to tell stories in a slightly different way.


If you want, you can surrender to the cops.
IGN: So is part of the hope then that if I play the game and I come up to my friend and I'm like, "oh man, this, this and this happened," and the friend is like, "oh well, something completely different happened to me." Is that something that you guys are going for?

Houser: Yeah, within reason. It's not like there's 14,000 different paths through the game at all, because again you couldn't do that at this level of production value. But yeah, there's plenty of things that if you play through the game and I play through the game, we'll have broadly similar experiences, but there's lots of twists and turns where you'll have made different choices, done different things, just randomly seen different things and there will be plenty of differences in those. Including some cutscenes -- not fundamental ones. It should feel pretty fun to the player, feel like they are manipulating the outcomes.

IGN: One of the things that I also found really surprising was just how much alternate dialogue there was. So you're with Packie, you fail a mission, and the next time you're on the mission he has something different to say. What was the decision to do that?

"There are missions where you go and you have the cutscene and there's a small character that's out of it... you can bump into later walking around the world, and talk to him then or not. And if you don't then maybe there are ramifications of doing that coming into the story."
Houser: I suppose where that came from was the idea that we want it to feel like you're the star of your own movie. That can't happen if everything feels canned. It has to feel more vibrant than that. The nature of the game is that you are going to fail missions and you are going to have to repeat them. You can't do that if you want the missions to feel tight, for there to be any progress in the game. That made sense to us and it wasn't something we would change. But then we're like, "well how do we make the sensation of repeating a mission feel less canned and less like Groundhog Day?" Well, one of those ways was that dialogue shouldn't be exactly the same. Maybe they cover similar themes, maybe they don't. There's key information in there, they're going to give you the key information, but apart from that, just do a different version. Yeah, it doubles the workload, but for the person playing the game, it makes it the experience 10 times more engaging in some ways.


IGN: Touching back on relationship stuff, when I was doing a mission with Packie, at one point a woman t-boned us, we get out of the car, she's yelling at us and Packie gets out and just shoots her. And I thought that was great, that idea that this specific character is somebody that anybody who's a threat, he's just going to take out.

Houser: Yeah, another thing, we wanted to give all of the characters more definable AI -- within reason; behaviors, things like that, and also dialogue that will match that. Some of them, when you get drunk, they'll talk to you and some of them will talk differently. Some of them will go from quite passive when they're sober to really angry drunks. Some of the angry characters are very maudlin when they're drunk. Little touches like that are kind of partnering between AI and dialogue, that again just make it feel a lot more vivid and alive and [offer] lots of things to discover.

Giving you things to discover about people seemed like an interesting thing to play with. So with the friends, for example, the more you hang out with the particular guy, they keep giving you more of their life story and their self-perception and maybe when they're drunk they give you a different version and all that stuff. So there's a lot of depth there for people that want to discover that stuff. If you're not interested, don't hang out with them. You won't get the rewards of discovering [things] about them, and you won't get the gameplay rewards that some of them give you as well.



IGN: I love Niko. He's really looks like no one I've seen in a game before, but is also a great fit in GTA IV. Was he modeled after anyone?

Garbut: Not really -- we liked track suits and strong brow lines. We played around with various Eastern European looks and ended up with him, based on lots of stills of characters in films, and photographs of guys fighting in wars in winter in the former Yugoslavia and Chechnya and so on. But the main thing was to get a character whose face could convey the emotions we wanted, and whose body type looked good when moving, with all of the new animation, without at any time seeming to be too heroic.

IGN: Having Niko come to Liberty City, which is basically a virtual version of New York, it's an immigrant story, which obviously has to be set in New York because this is where immigrants historically come first, but was it that you decided to do a re-imagined New York and then you built Niko to fit in there, or was it that you had the idea of Niko and then you said, "that's a perfect fit for doing it in Liberty City"?

Houser: I've been asked this before, but the honest answer is that I can't remember, because we don't really sit and have a conscious planning session like that. The guys who are involved make their decisions, which is me and Sam [Houser] and Leslie [Benzies] and Aaron [Garbut] at North and a few other guys get ideas bounced off them as well. I don't think we've ever once sat in a room, the four of us, and talked about that. Just over e-mail and they kind of both came together. We wanted New York because, it was much as anything, a production issue... We've never tried to do it before.

"With the friends, for example, the more you hang out with the particular guy, they keep giving you more of their life story and their self-perception and maybe when they're drunk they give you a different version and all that stuff."
Vice City was obviously Miami, San Andreas was obviously California. Liberty City [in GTA III] was not meant to be New York. It was meant to be a made-up city that had elements of New York, it had elements of Philadelphia or Boston or anywhere on the East Coast. Some elements were kind of a Detroit or a Chicago because at that point we were just trying to make a world in 3D. Figuring out things like how to do sound in 3D, how to do the radio in a kind of 3D type world -- all these things that doing them somewhere accurately didn't really seem interesting or relevant or necessary at that point. So we've never done New York, so that, to us, felt like a golden opportunity.


Bikes are back and control better than ever.
[The previous games] felt in some ways like they were alluding to an era or alluding to a set of movies. We were consciously trying to not do that this time. The last few years have not been golden eras for gangster movies, much as we love gangster films. We wanted to do something that felt fresh and felt like it was our own thing, whether it was because we felt more confident or we felt that there wasn't other interesting stuff out there or that the game was ready for it. We had the technology to make a game that could handle that stuff. So we kept looking around. Well, we don't want to do a mafia story, cause that's been done to death. We've done that to death, let alone movies and TV shows that we definitely like. We certainly have some characters like that in there but they're not going to be the center piece of the game. And so we kept trying and playing around with other ideas and we'd just done an African-American lead in San Andreas and that was fun and it was an interesting experience and we worked with a lot of fun guys in that, but we don't want to repeat that because that's going to start to be derivative. By the time of having done Liberty City Stories and Vice City Stories, feeling like we wanted something that feels so refreshed because people had been, "Okay, well let's find the real outsider, then." By the nature of these characters, they're always going to be doing things that are incredibly dangerous, because that's how you make fun missions. So it's always got to be people who feel very alienated and they'll do that stuff.

And certainly in terms of research and talking to criminal experts, they were all, "Well yeah, you know, the issue in the mob these days is that everyone's a rat. No one wants to do the hard time anymore, even if they [ever] did. A lot of that stuff's mythology anyway. The real scary characters are not born in America anymore, because life's too comfortable." So that was where we began to come up with the idea of an immigrant, and then it began to feel like, "yeah, that would be fun," because the other side of the game, exploring the world, will feel great with an immigrant because he can really look at this overblown interpretation of American culture with these fresh eyes like, "all you guys talk about is money," or, "all you guys talk about is status." Really kind of see that stuff with a new pair of eyes. So that seemed feel like, "Well that would be really fun."

So that was kind of how Niko began to take shape, and it came together more or less at the same time and fitted together very well. Slightly different conversations with broadly the same people, but they ended up being like, "Well that's great because if we want to do him, and we want to do New York, they fit together really well."

IGN: Would it be fair to say that Niko's story is not like a typical gangster story that we've seen where it's a guy who comes from nothing and he builds himself up and he's the big mob boss at the end. It's kind of on the level of Mean Streets pride where it's a very small group of guys in a mess of trouble?

Houser: Kind of halfway between the two. Because the games are so long -- they are much longer than a movie -- we toyed with it just being a very small group of guys and it ended up feeling very, very narrow and boring after a while, so we need a bunch of characters. You meet a lot of people, and also that's a good motivator to moving around the map.

"You know, the issue in the mob these days is that everyone's a rat. No one wants to do the hard time anymore, even if they [ever] did... The real scary characters are not born in America anymore, because life's too comfortable."
Still, it has to work as a video game. I don't think it's a proper limitation on storytelling in the game; it's just the nature of the medium. There are things that work well in films that wouldn't work well in the game and things that work well in a book that don't work well in a film, and I think games are not yet as sophisticated a medium, but they're getting there... That's just the reality of it; it does have this special element and moving around the map is such a part of the game.

We wanted it [so] you didn't feel like you became the king of New York, the king of Liberty City. That didn't really feel like it was going to be appropriate, so we do have some characters that can give you some more spectacular missions because at the same time it still is entertainment and meant to be really fun. So they make sense as to why they're giving the more outlandish mission without being too outlandish, but [with] helicopters and that kind of stuff. [Niko's] not focused on, "I want to become the king of the city; I want to take over this place." He's got his own motivations for doing what he's doing and they just want to find an easier way of living than what they're doing at the start of the game, which is scrabbling around, driving taxis, being in debt, getting beaten up by people. That is more their motivation. They're not interested in any way with trying to be king of this world.

IGN: Do you think Niko's a character that is easier for people to empathize with than maybe some of the previous lead characters in GTA games?

Houser: I don't know, I mean... It's a balancing act, given the nature of the game. Obviously in GTA III, he didn't speak. You could completely impose yourself on him apart from when you'd say, "Well don't do that, shoot over there." The reason for that was purely that at the time there were so many new things that we were figuring out that we were like, "Jeez, let's not even think about that right now." And then, towards the end of development we were like, "Okay, this is actually how we actually do it; the way that they speak and their AI reactions to things," and we though, okay, when we do Vice City we'll put all that in, we'll figure out how to make it all work. The cinematic side of the game really [leaping] forward. But we always tried to make it fun. If the guy's an out-and-out dick, it isn't fun to play as them.

IGN: Don't make me the lead character in a GTA game. It wouldn't be fun.

Houser: Why? Oh, I get it now, but you seem like a nice chap.

IGN: No, I'm horrible.

Houser: But the other element is they also need to be reasonably hard because they are gangsters and they're doing some pretty unsavory things -- sometimes with bad motivation, sometimes with good motivation. I think with Niko, the difference is... part of it is just technology. The facial animation, and because of the definition on the model, you can just see his face responding to stuff so you understand what he's feeling and you can get a more sympathetic performance from him than you could ever in the previous games. And the actor also did a phenomenal job. It's the same guy mocapping and doing the voice, and I've watched a lot of GTA cutscenes in my time, many of them 50 to 100 times each and Niko is without a doubt my favorite character we've ever had. Hands down, no question. In some of the other games the side characters were a lot more punchy. Niko, in every scene, is more fun and magnetic. I think the guys who directed the scenes and then the actor just did a fantastic job with him. So in that way he's very relatable too.


Where's there's smoke, there's an RPG.

But it was also, I think, trying to make the story more detailed and more focused, more hi-definition will have an impact on the story. By its nature [it] will make him more sympathetic because we consider his motives a little bit more. We don't say what's wrong or right. Also, because he ends up doing a lot of nasty things for nasty people, but he also ends up doing some nasty things that have positive effects on not such nasty people.

He uses his strength -- which is being a reasonably tough bastard who doesn't know if he necessarily has much to live for -- he uses that as a positive force as well as a negative force throughout the game. He meets these kinds of damsels in distress-type characters and saves these lost girls and lost guys who need his help. So in that way, you can relate to him. On the other hand, he's a cold-hearted killer, but he's aware of that in himself. So I think he's a fun character to play as. He's not in any way soft, but you can definitely relate to aspects of his personality.



IGN: You have tons and tons of extra characters in the game that have important roles. So what's the creation process on those guys? Is it that you kind of do like a storyline first, a general storyline then you build it out or you just kind of make these guys and throw them in there and see how they fit?

Houser: Again, I'm sorry I can't give you a better answer than this because it's rather dull, but there isn't really a super-formal process because we're all used to working together and no one's really like that... We define those two things: we define the city and we define the lead character so the concept artists can begin to draw. So they have some ideas and the character artists can begin playing around with the side ideas and the map artists can begin to start the enormous and mammoth task that is building that world in that detail. They'll start looking at, "is neighborhood interesting, is that neighborhood interesting." They're looking at maps, they're looking at photographs, using knowledge, the researchers here offering input into everything and the world is taking shape that way.

On the character and story side, it's a lot more haphazard than that. We begin talking and making notes of this kind of character and this kind of storyline and this kind of twist. At the same time we've defined -- loosely -- Niko and so we begin to find some issues and so over time what became clear is that Niko was going to need some form of reason to be turning up there. That became Roman. The dream in any of this stuff is that at any level you might find the NPCs interesting enough to care about. Hopefully we've had memorable [characters] for a while, but the aim is something slightly more detailed in hi-definition for some of them to be people you can care about, so missions where you're saving them have an extra depth to them. We wanted this relationship with Roman to be... well, they couldn't quite be brothers because then they'd know each other better, because there's an element of betrayal but they needed to be really close. So cousins began to feel like a cool relationship. Niko was going to be a guy with a back story -- I don't want to go into too much detail about the back story -- he'd been in this war and has all this... He began to take shape as the guy who was running away from Europe and was trying to leave his life behind, and then Roman, we wanted him to be the opposite, which is someone who's being pulled to America because he sees it as this great land of opportunity.

So that kind of double act; Roman's a fantasist because he thinks he's at the point of breaking in and making it really big, but he's a charming guy and then Niko's very tough and a strong guy but at the same time cynical, not as good with people and a bit more awkward. And that felt like they could play off each other. So that was the kind of core relationship and then imagining the situation Roman would be in and we wanted them to be dealing with a lot of Russian and other Eastern European crooks early on in the game. Then, at the same time, we'd be talking about classic New York characters.

What we could do this time that we couldn't do in the past, using mechanics in the story a little bit differently was almost... you could think of key kinds of criminals and activity. We want to represent something that seemed like a good idea, but this idea was not off a great deal of research it was just off knowing a little bit about the city and then actually dreaming that this is actually happening. Which was this idea that you get these two African-American, uptown wanna-be player characters where one's very modern and the other's like -- we wanted this guy that was fresh out of jail who was like an early '90s drug dealer, at first big and very tough guys, but who'd been in prison for the last 15-16 years and missed out on all the ideas of bling and the obsession with consumer products. His idea of a higher life was a kind of BMW and now their idea is a penthouse and a gold painted jet. And he would just find this ridiculous, and then recently I was reading about all those old drug dealers who just got out of jail and fortunately we were on the right kind of lines.


What kind of criminal will you be?

We just started populating the map and the world, making sure Niko's got the overall quest, an overall goal and some of his past that catches up against his wishes. So he's got his own storyline and motivations which is why he's going to do this job for people. He's got a few things that keep pushing him through the map, be it Roman's gambling or some other issues that crop up, and then a bunch of other characters with their own motivations of why they let you into their own world and why they do these things.

So that was how the criminal/main story part game together, but then what we also wanted to -- we'd thought about this in the past but it just wasn't feasible on the previous machines to make it look good -- was the idea that, and I don't know if you've ever lived in New York, but part of the experience is that you walk around and you meet crazy people. We have a lot of crazy people here, and a lot of high energy characters, and they're not even necessarily sitting on the street, wearing a diaper crying crazy, but are just kind of... they might be a banker but they're incredibly high-strung and want you to know how difficult their life is.

"Roman's a fantasist because he thinks he's at the point of breaking in and making it really big, but he's a charming guy and then Niko's very tough and a strong guy but at the same time cynical, not as good with people and a bit more awkward. And that felt like they could play off each other."
We wanted to capture that element of things in the game and it gave us a chance to do a lot of characters that you wouldn't meet [since] you're a criminal so obviously you're not going to meet these people, but if wanted to capture the essence of New York in the old [GTA] days, we'd have to put that in the radio or hint at it in the way the pedestrians behaved. You could say a couple words, but you could never really release or [interact] to them. But this time around, you can walk around the world and meet people. Not tons of them, but there's a bunch of characters you can meet, and they're this range of New York personalities, some of whom you meet during story arcs, some of whom you only meet the once.

A classic one is here we are on Broadway and Houston and if you walk up to 14th Street you'll get stopped maybe five times by someone going, "Hey, man, do you like hip-hop? Buy my CD of hip-hop." We've gotta put that in the game! So you walk down the street and some guy comes up and goes, "Do you like hip-hop?" That triggers another scene, and that guy's kind of a ridiculous character but Niko's friendly to him because he doesn't know any other way to be and that leads into another mission. Lots of touches like that where you're not really looking for a mission but you stumble upon it and it smashes the difference between on-mission and off-mission, it condenses it down, but it also lets you use a lot of characters that feel very New York-esque and that you couldn't otherwise find a place for in this gangster story.

IGN: Yeah, actually, when I was walking here yesterday, I had a man run buy who was wearing a unitard -- and you know it was freezing yesterday -- and he was carrying a pair of skis and he ran into a jewelry store. And I thought, "That's New York. You can't see that anywhere else in the world."

Houser: Yeah, preachers on the street, and we wanted to capture that -- and again, that stuff you just couldn't have done it on the PS2. You can now. Not as much as you might want but there's still plenty there. You still have lots and lots of things to be discovered by wandering the streets. You can hear about them on the news in the game, and suddenly you're reacting with them.

IGN: I'd imagine one of the challenges in a game such as this is finding a way to create unique-looking pedestrians. What was the philosophy behind designing people on the street?

"We don't have a single type of lamppost, we have 30 odd variations. This idiotic level of detail and variety carries through all aspects of the game."
Garbut: We spent a lot of time driving and walking around New York, filming as much as we could then broke this down into character types based on area. It was essential to us to get the right mix of characters, dressed in the right sort of clothes. Everything needs to work in unison to create a believable world. Each area of the city needed to be distinct and characterize the real area and it needed to be populated by the right cars and the right people doing the right kind of things.

IGN: And how do their appearance change based on where you are in Liberty City?

Garbut: Each area in the city on almost a block by block basis is filled with the correct sort of pedestrians you'd expect to see there. The right ethnic mixes, the right kind of clothing, they'll be driving the kind of cars you'd expect to see there. There's a random element just as there is in a real city but we've broken down the world enough to have each area feel right. The numbers and mix of cars and characters will vary throughout the day and week. Basically it mirrors reality as much as we could make it mirror reality.



IGN: What new challenges do hi-res graphics present for an open-world game?

Garbut: The main challenge is the obvious one -- detail. We need to fill the world with so much more stuff to make it interesting. There's a huge amount of work involved with that. Our props department has created a sickening amount of variation of every conceivable object. We don't just have a bin to stick down the odd alleyway, we have hundreds of variations on rubbish, discarded couches, bits of cardboard, all of which need to be setup to break apart convincingly complete with lots of unique particles from our effects department. We don't have a single type of lamppost, we have 30 odd variations. This idiotic level of detail and variety carries through all aspects of the game.


Bridge over troubled water.
With that kind of detail and variety in the props we need something similar in the world itself. The map is massive, but it's also ridiculously dense and every area is detailed. We treated the alleyways with as much importance as the shop fronts. It's such a massive undertaking to create this level of detail over such as large area. And it impacts on every part of the art.

The increase in fidelity makes the smaller details more important. We have a design department who has spent years creating fictional companies and products. This is all tied into the in-game advertising on billboards, Internet, radio etc. Everything that would be branded is branded and it all ties together in a cohesive way from car manufacturers to headache pills.

IGN: I feel like with the use of NaturalMotion and current-gen technology, the world feels a bit more grounded. Niko moves like a real person. He walks, he isn't speeding through the world. The world feels a little more alive.

Houser: Well, it had to. I sometimes get a little frustrated when you read some of the press and people are like, "Yeah, this was what was crap about the previous games!" And I'm like, that's a little bit unfair because for their time and the hardware, the previous games were incredibly progressive and pushed the machines hard. But of course no hardware is as good as the real world, so you're always going to make compromises. That being said, we obviously felt there were plenty of things in a game where... there's obviously huge elements for improvement. Until you're doing that in exactly the way you want it, there're obviously always going to be things you want to improve, and what we set out to do was to make this first true high definition gaming experience and we broke that down into three things that we wanted to radically improve.

One was, as a pure piece of videogame design... I think that GTA was always a very clever piece of videogame design. It flows better than anything else had been able to [do] between the various modes. That was always perceived as some kind of holy grail, to combine modes, and GTA always did it effortlessly to the point where that's now became the standard way of doing it. How do you actually put an action game in an open world? That was seen as a very complicated thing to [do]. The holy grail of game design. GTA III showed you how you could do that in 3D. So obviously we don't want to throw everything away, but we did want to improve every single mechanic. Make the game flow better, make the game feel better in their hands. Video games are tactile by their nature, and for it to feel next-generation it had to feel better. We obviously had a lot more power to play with, to do a lot more of that stuff. So, lots of animations, all the new physics, the way we worked with NaturalMotion... All, that stuff was important and progressive. We wanted to redo all the targeting, redo everything mechanical, from how missions flowed into each other -- all of that side of things. So that was one aspect of it.

Another aspect was, we wanted to make a better cinematic or narrative experience. To some extent, the fact that you've now got choices in the story moves beyond cinema in a way, but the element of characters that you care about, some kind of character development, side-characters, the idea of building up -- well, it's much longer than a movie. If you watch the cutscenes back to back it's twice the length of a movie. So it kind of has to flow more like long form like a long novel or a talk series or a TV show. But you wanted something that flowed like a story, had a side story, changes, movements, but [does] the job of a game, which is to move you around the map and introduce you to the feature set of the game, but trying to make that experience better.


He ain't buying Cam'ron's latest album.
And then thirdly, we wanted to do was develop the idea of a world. The virtual world that you are exploring and the content in that and the things you've got to do in your spare time, that kind of combination of structured spare time -- things like bowling or dating, or hanging out with your friends -- some of which we kind of touched on in our previous games, we wanted to get them to hang together a lot better. And then the more passive free time, just driving around time and looking at the world, we put a lot of improvement in that.

Those kind of three ideas, the world, the story, and the pure videogame guts of it all -- we thought if we improved all those and stayed consistent, we'd have something pretty special.

IGN: Yeah, that's what gives this a different feel from San Andreas and Vice City and even GTA III is that it seems like you're more a part of that world than maybe you were before.

Houser: Definitely. That was something we were totally trying to achieve this time, and were trying to achieve as best we could in the previous games within limitations and within time budget/experience, and I can't stress enough that for me the pleasure of making these games is working with these guys. I always get a bit upset when you read articles and some relatively senior people on some teams are just like, "Yeah, I did this and I did that," and I'm like, "You never did anything!"

I'm totally focused on -- I'm just here speaking to you, but it could be any of a hundred other guys involved in the game and with GTA, it's the reason the games have kept being progressive. The reason that we do a game that is [as] ambitious as this is because we have a lot of experience and some of the best guys in the industry are on this team.

"We basically selected all the bits and pieces of New York that we thought characterized it the best. The major landmarks, the key areas. Then we filled in the blanks with a caricature of the city. It works I think because it fits with the way so many people experience New York."
The thing that I probably get the most upset about is when people go, "Well GTA's not about the graphics," And I'm like, "I don't agree with that point. It's not about hi-res graphics, as hi-res as they can be," but the worlds always looked to me -- and maybe I'm deluded in this, but they always looked to me -- lived in, in a way most people can't achieve. Couch for couch, plenty of guys can model as good a couch as you'd see in a GTA game, but what they can't do is make this whole scene look like this whole scene [motioning around room], because Aaron and the other senior artists on the team are obsessed by not how good the couch looks, but how good the room looks with everything in it. How the walls seem, dirt layers between -- little things you'll never notice consciously, but subconsciously it just makes the environment look more organic and lived in. There's a slightly chipped bit of paint and there's marks here; little things that you'll never notice but your eye just makes it feel very, very lived in and organic.


Race that midnight train.

IGN: How do you make GTA IV accurate to New York, but still keep it uniquely Liberty City? It can't be just about having some fictional branding in Times Square.

Garbut: We basically selected all the bits and pieces of New York that we thought characterized it the best. The major landmarks, the key areas. Then we filled in the blanks with a caricature of the city. It works I think because it fits with the way so many people experience New York. There's a familiarity I think everyone has with the city whether they have been there or not. We've seen the city so many times in so many ways in film or print that we kind of know it, it's the same way any city is remembered after visiting -- we remember the highlights, and our mind kind of fills in the blanks with the general vibe of each area. The first time I visited the city I had that same feeling of familiarity. I really felt I knew the place. So by capturing that same caricature rather than rigidly copying what is there I think we get closer to most people experience of the city.

But this is balanced with a lot of research. Rockstar is obviously based there, we have fulltime researchers and the team has visited a lot. We have so much video and photo footage and we had the researchers to fill in the blanks for us. Basically Liberty city is the best and worst bits of New York and a New York that Giuliani hadn't cleaned up.

IGN: Was it being somewhat faithful to New York ever limiting?

Garbut: We've never allowed it to be limiting. It's Liberty City first, it is a fictional place so we had license to do what we wanted. We made sure we had the key features we felt we needed to include, whether they were iconic buildings, bridges, or even areas of city. We kept it very roughly geographically accurate, keeping everything in approximately the right place. But that left us open to do whatever we wanted in between. I've never really seen the point of doing a carbon copy of a city in a game -- if you do that it's all about compromising the game for the sake of reality where it should be the other way around.

IGN: One of my co-workers who came here and was playing the multiplayer, we were doing the helicopter races and were flying around -- and he used to live in New York, lived near Ground Zero -- and he actually flew by his place and was like, "You know, I've actually seen my place in a couple other games, but honestly this the first game that almost brick-for-brick looks and seems just like my old apartment."

"You can't really do that stuff in a film, you can't really do that stuff in a book. There's no medium that can do that in a way that a game can. That's the thing that we've always been conscious about with GTA, that's why we've always loved doing open world games."
Houser: Well, hopefully! We've been doing research for a long time with these games, but we did do a lot [for GTA IV]. We had 60 artists serving here from [Rockstar] North at one point or 60 guys helping the artists for a week early on, and we have a full time team here taking requests from them. It could be anything from, "Can you go and capture this particular building, want to make sure," to just, "Can you use some time lapse photography for the way the sky looks so we can make sure the sky then looks accurate," or, "What about traffic flow?" So we got video of traffic flow. The most weird, arcane tasks; look at census data, to check we've got the racial makeup approximate for any neighborhood. We're not trying to make a brick-for-brick New York; it's supposed to be a digital re-creation.

And again, this is one of the reasons why we wanted to do a New York-based game because at least some section of the guys involved are based here and for the guys in Scotland, they can all come over here. We wanted to do something where we could really capture the essence of it, really use the nature of a game, which is giving you this kind of special environment you can explore, to do something you couldn't really do in any other medium. Basically to build you the full 3D living film set that you can explore, which is another area where I think games have an enormous power that people are just beginning to tap into.


Vigilante missions are back.

You can't really do that stuff in a film, you can't really do that stuff in a book. There's no medium that can do that in a way that a game can. That's the thing that we've always been conscious about with GTA, that's why we've always loved doing open world games, but that was something we really felt this time -- well, you know, that was the thing I was talking about with this world where we can really bring it alive in a way people haven't really seen before.

[petemc]

Damn thats a lot :) I like the multiplayer helicopters thing.

[leowyatt]

haven't even read it all myself yet :o just copied and pasted it into here ;D

[Joe 90]

look - another awesome GTA story...
http://kotaku.com/373773/gta4-hands+on-the-world-is-yours
And the game has a lot of nice touches an awful lot of nice touches that really have nothing to do with game play. When you snag a car, sometimes the door is left unlocked and you can just hop in. Other times you have to smash in the window with an elbow.

To shoot while driving you have to smash out your window. Once, while driving around a guy who was smoking pot, I smashed out the window and within seconds billowing clouds of smoke were pouring through the busted glass.

[leowyatt]

The other article on IGN went up yesterday but I haven't had chance to stick it on here :)

[Davey_Pitch]

I still haven't finished the first article yet :o

[leowyatt]

This game is going to be immense :D

[Joe 90]

I still haven't finished the first article yet :o

it was too big for me to even start :o

[petemc]

I always liked the way in GTA3 when you stole a car and drove off too quickly the door wasn't closed properly because you too buys trying to drive away. So you had to stop and close the door.

[Goose]

...or wait until a sharp corner closed it for you. In fact, just letting off the power closed the door iirc.

[Belmit]

This is going to be so good. Multiplayer should add some much needed longevity to it too - I've never felt the need to go back to any of the GTA games after completing them before.

[Davey_Pitch]

I've never completed a GTA game before. I got up to the 2nd to last mission in San Andreas but couldn't be bothered doing all the turf wars needed to start the last mission. Never really got close on any of the other games.

[Del Lardo]

Got very close in Vice City but San Andreas bored the crap outta me so I'm hoping that GTA4 is another huge step forward.

I remember sending one of my 18 year old friends into WH Smiths to buy me a copy of the original GTA ;D

[Joe 90]

I remember sending one of my 18 year old friends into WH Smiths to buy me a copy of the original GTA ;D

lol - i had to do that a couple of times for my mates... but we weren't 18 (or 15 in teh case of Resident Evil) :lipsrsealed:

when did the original GTA come out anyway?
My mum rented it for me whenever that was... ;D

[Del Lardo]

lol - i had to do that a couple of times for my mates... but we weren't 18 (or 15 in teh case of Resident Evil) :lipsrsealed:

when did the original GTA come out anyway?
My mum rented it for me whenever that was... ;D

I was 16 IIRC so 1997

[Haly]

I was going to say 97ish too, might have been early 98.
I remember showing the demo of GTA to my psychologist Uncle and he looked absolutely horrified. I think he was convinced at the time that I'd grow into a psychopath ;D

[Joe 90]

I was 16 IIRC so 1997

geeeez i was 11 :shocked:

[leowyatt]

Bastard (http://www.gamesradar.com/f/hes-finished-grand-theft-auto-iv/a-2008040412432960029/p-1)

that is all

[petemc]

****. Though he does make it sound awesome.

[leowyatt]

It does sound great. Going to head into town on my lunch on the 29th to pick up my copy.

[petemc]

25hrs gameplay if you rush. 40 if you take your time. Then theres all the online fun. Weekly games of cops n robbers etc. Its going to be soooooo tasty :D

[leowyatt]

Yeah we're going to have to schedule cops 'n robbers games :)

[leowyatt]

US, March 31, 2008 - Grand Theft Auto IV is less than a month away. Arriving on PS3 and 360 April 29, Rockstar's latest has the IGN office abuzz with excitement. While we know many of you share our heightened anticipation, we also realize many of you still have your doubts. It's going to be a few more weeks before we know if GTA IV can deliver on its promise.

Why is this the first true sequel to GTA III? How do you make a multiplayer component that still feels as free and open as the single-player of GTA? And what's Rockstar's take on downloadable content? We spoke with VP of Creative, Dan Houser and Rockstar North Art Director Aaron Garbut to get the answers.



IGN: One of the first things that I noticed when the game was announced is that you chose to call it GTA IV. Was that to say that this is kind of the first true sequel where you guys are taking as big a leap as you did from GTA 2 which was top-down to GTA III, which of course was of course 3D and open world?

Dan Houser: Yes, definitely. Exactly that. We certainly did our best to make sure that Vice City and San Andreas felt fresh and exciting, but the problem was GTA III was already pushing the hardware so hard. The improvements tended to be in production values and scale... We wanted it to feel like the transition from 2D to 3D was seismic. We wanted a transition that felt as seismic, that felt as big this time.

IGN: Do you think people outside of the industry, that the general readership, get that yet? That people understand that change yet. Or is it going to take them actually play it before they get that?

Houser: Yeah, I think they'll have to play... When you see it running, I don't think it's difficult. You go out [with Niko] and go, "Look, we can go to the cabaret, we can surf the Internet or we can do all this other [stuff]." When you start to see that, I don't think it's difficult to get your head around.

We knew this was going to be our first big game in the lifecycle, so we wanted it to be a game that if people were buying the hardware to play, they'd know why they bought the hardware... It's not a single bullet point that is easy to reduce as it was the difference between GTA 2 to GTA III, but I believe that it's still kind of obvious once you see the game being played for more than about a minute.



IGN: And I think there are subtle things, too, that you would notice when you play it. If you just walk the streets for five minutes and then get into two different cars and try to make sharp turns you get a sense of how different it is.

Houser: I think definitely if you play the game for more than 10 seconds. We always wanted a game that you can pick it up and you can have fun, control the character, control the vehicle and have fun in three seconds flat. But there is enough depth that it is still a test of skill and there is still fun to be had after hour 15, 20, 30, 100, whatever it might be. So there's going to be tons and tons of tiny things that you'll notice over time that'll make you go, "Wow, that's pretty cool; I've never seen that kind of thing before done in a game," but you still have to have that early wow. You weren't like, "Ah, it's a little bit better." It can't feel like GTA 3.5.

IGN: Yeah, it doesn't.

Houser: Well thank you. [laughter] Otherwise the last three years would've been very miserable for nothing.

IGN: How was it making GTA IV for multiple systems simultaneously?

Houser: There have been challenges with both systems. Now we're at the point where it's is looking great on both. So we feel pretty pleased about the decision. We've never done simultaneous releases before off the lead SKU. We've done like the PC and the Xbox at the same time and other things like that... It is a challenge for the technical guys on the team (which is thankfully not me -- or thankfully them). [laughter]

It's definitely a challenge keeping that stuff in line, but I think we're now at the point where it was the right decision. We're pleased about that approach. It's not like we made any significant compromises to either version by doing them. Which was always the thing we were nervous about doing in the past, that one would feel very dumbed down or that one would feel like it could've pushed the machine a little harder. We think we've pushed both machines very, very hard compared to what other people are able to do at this point in time.

IGN: GTA games on the PS2 couldn't show things at a high level of realism, just by the nature of the console. But now you have systems that can show a truer version of the world. So how do you balance the line of creating a sense of realism without making things so realistic it becomes off-putting?

Aaron Garbut: We make GTA by chucking things in as quickly as we can and refining till they are as good as we can make them. This worked in the same way. We went through a number of styles right at the start and what we ended up with grew out of that. Where something seemed out of place, it was changed or removed.

Houser: We definitely wanted to step out from cinema shadow with [GTA IV]. We wanted to do our own thing, set in place we knew very well and set in a time we knew well. As we hadn't done a contemporary game since 2001, it felt [like] enough time had passed that we could do that without repeating ourselves.

IGN: Do you think the heightened realism is going to make the anti-GTA politicians even more vocal?

Garbut: I think regardless of how the game looked or what it contained the politicians [would] be just as vocal. GTA is an easy target for politicians and journalists to pick on. It doesn't really matter what we do or don't do. It's an open experience that allows players to do as they choose in a realistic environment. As these sorts of games become more and more sophisticated and the choices and abilities open to the players increases it will become easier and easier to sensationalize a particular aspect of it and at the same time become more and more ridiculous [about it].

We're seeing it already with the drinking in the game. There is no drunk driving minigame, there's just drinking and getting drunk. Combine this with the ability to enter cars in the game and people are able to drive drunk, but that's a choice they have made based on the abilities we have made available to them. It's just as valid for them to walk home, but that doesn't make for such interesting headlines.

I seem to be ranting but my point is we don't allow what...a politician might think to be an issue. We just make a game that is as good as we can make and as beautiful as we can make. I really loathe the idea of self censorship.



IGN: One of the things we've seen in the first two years of the 360 is that even though you're paying more, most companies have upped the resolution but haven't done much more. We haven't seen a lot of games yet where I've said, "You know, graphics aside, you could never do that on a PS2 or Xbox."

Houser: Well, I certainly feel that too much... I don't really like to talk about other people's games, because I know how hard to make games... It's intimidating. Making the art at this level of resolution is intimidating. So I can understand where some of that conservatism comes from. We've chosen not to do that, but I don't blame other people for doing that. Fundamentally, if you want to expand the audience of people who are playing videogames, it can only be through evolving the medium. Other people are saying, "Well that's through making things very simple." Our approach is the opposite by saying, "No, it's through making things vibrant and alive in a way they couldn't be previously" and that will drag new people in.


Liberty City PD stands no chance.

IGN: We saw when GTA III came out that it sort of launched the idea of an open world as the new standard. You saw a lot of people copycatting what you accomplished and that became the natural thing. Now that we're heading into the new generation of consoles, open world is an obvious thing, everybody does it. It's become a standard. So what's the new thing for this generation? Is it cinematics? Is it story that's going to become the big thing? Is it AI that's going to be the big thing for this generation?

Houser: I think it's detail... As you say, in the previous generation it was doing 3D in an open world because that gave you this idea of the playing environment -- the set, all the living world, whatever you manage to achieve -- actually existing in some way. That was something that was cool that games could do, but by the limitations of the machinery, there wasn't that much detail... We were conscious [that] this will be our first big game on these new machines and we're going to have to justify in our own minds why someone's going to spend $500 to play this game.

So for us it's got to be about detail, it has to be hi-definition and that means everything has to get better. On the last generation you could fundamentally do anything that you wanted to do in a game, but you couldn't necessarily do it with that much precision and detail. And now it's making stories that are more alive, making characters that have more resonance to them and making physics. The physics is an obvious example of something that's just leapt forward.

IGN: On the detail part, I remember the very first time the game was shown to us and I saw someone drive around and one of the very first things I noticed was, "there's a pothole in the street." It's not just like, "We made streets." It's that, "We made this street and this street hasn't been cared for in a long time."

Houser: Again it's where I come back to why I think the art guys are so great on this game. That was something we were playing around with even on GTA III. You load GTA III in about three seconds you'll see newspapers blowing around and a little bit of roadwork. But you can do it infinitely better now. And it's not to say that there's no new innovations and we're just trying to redo old ideas, because we are looking at all aspects of the process and doing it a lot better than we ever did in the past. And just doing things you couldn't do previously. Detail will give the whole thing this visceral, immediate quality it couldn't have before.

We only scratched the surface of that [during] GTA III/Vice City time, but it was really interesting to us. We were like, "Wow, this is really powerful... when people postulate games are going to be the next mass form of entertainment, this is the kind of thing they're going to be able to do." You don't really realize that that's what's so cool about it. Yes you can have -- and we love -- strong narrative but you can have that inter-related to the whole experience in quite a new way. That was something we tried to keep developing, because that seemed like a very exciting idea.


Niko knows no bounds.

What we couldn't get while doing that on PS2 or Xbox 1 was a great deal of detail and a great deal of depth. You know, it was still like a road map. And now you're able to go a lot more granularly and see the guys with their heads in their hands and see tears on peoples' faces. Things like that that just gives it this kind of power and have tons and tons of variations in the conversations and the physics to match. It was keeping all of that stuff coming up to the same level. What I thought we did very well on previous games was the kind of consistency. Even on GTA III -- and we kept that going on the other ones -- it felt like an integrated front. You could be playing a side game, unlocking a safe, going on a dance, parachuting out of a plane, listening to the radio, doing a wide variety of stuff by San Andreas and it felt like one game. We always felt that was important. So if we're tonally moving, we tried to shift the whole tone up a generation this time.

IGN: I think that carries over into multiplayer, being able to jump in using your phone.

Houser: The phone was a great piece of design. I remember when the designers showed me that and I was visiting the office and I was like, "That's brilliant. You did an amazing job with that." We've had a phone loosely since Vice City, but really then it was just for the writers, because then we could move the story forward. It was just a good way of not always making someone have a cut-scene. It was a really good device for that, but it didn't really affect the flow or become such a great navigational tool.

We love the phone and we knew we wanted the phone and wanted to do introduce text messaging and SMSing as you call it in your country. Then they were like, "Well we should just do everything through the phone." Early on we [knew] we wanted to build out male friendships as well as girlfriends, and make the girlfriends a lot more detailed. So we use the idea [that] you can go on a mission or hang out with a friend and that felt like a good thing. When the phone came in -- that's how you were going to propel all that stuff -- suddenly it was like, "We can run the multiplayer through the phone. Just run the whole game through the phone." Even though there is a bit of the element of the breaking of the fourth wall when you start playing multiplayer through it, it feels very subtle and you barely notice it. And it's a lot better than seeing a menu at that point.

IGN: And that's one of the main differences in our world from 2001 when GTA III came out to now is that our lives are built around that phone now.

Houser: We started to see that games can do things you couldn't do in other mediums. The phone is a fine example of that. This actually replicates the sensation of being alive, at least in a city today. You couldn't do that in a movie or a book, it wouldn't really make sense. In a game, you are run by your phone in a certain level. In real life and in the game the same thing -- your phone controls you. It felt fun as that came together. It turned something that felt like a menu into something that felt very immersive and organic.



IGN: I think, actually, one of the things that changes the flow when you're in some of the missions is just having that cover system. Was it ever a concern that it might slow things down too much? How early on did that cover system evolve and become part of the game?

Houser: Well, the targeting was something that we realized we'd now have the power to be able to make it the way we wanted to make it. We'd be able to get the AI good enough to justify it. That was being worked on very, very early on. San Andreas finished in October 2004 and then the guys at North have a month off when a game finishes and then we're rolling into this. The ball starts pretty reasonably gentle. Making a game's like climbing a mountain; it gets worse and worse as the air gets thinner and thinner -- as time starts to run out.

But on the very earliest lists, we knew if we're going to go next-gen and we're going to take the time we want to improve the targeting system because that's something we can do properly now. And as soon as that began to get played with the cover system became a natural addition. So I can get the targeting and then we need to add cover and you need to make sure all the weapons work in that way, [are] the blind fire bits a lot of fun?

IGN: Oh yeah. Blind fire with an RPG may be the greatest thing ever.

Houser: When they got the art right with the RPG, it was like, "Okay, that's pretty out there." But yeah, that was earlier and then after that we went on to improving the hand-to-hand combat, the fighting. And again it was, trying to still keep the game very playable for the average [gamer]... GTA's got a broad range of people that play it and you want it to still appeal to the hardcore and yet also appeal to someone who's not a hardcore gamer by any means. I think that's the sweet spot we've always tried to hit and I think we still hit it, but it's always a danger if you focus too much on targeting as being too technical. People can't play it anymore.


Cover is a significant change from previous GTA games.

IGN: GTA IV adds verticality and a cover system. Does that affect the art process at all? Do you have to think about building the city any differently because of this?

Garbut: Our programmers wrote the climbing and cover to be very flexible. In many action games, the cover is predetermined and placed in the world in a very rigid sense. Our system dynamically finds cover wherever its available. Even if it's a moving car or crate. For the player it means there's loads of flexibility and real world common sense dictates whether a piece of cover is useable. For the artists creating the world it means that for the most part they don't need to worry about it.

Obviously in an area of map or interior where a specific fire fight takes place we get a lot more structured and consider where cover is needed. But throughout the rest of the world we just make an interesting map and leave it to the cover system and the player to use what we've built. It's not really too possible to do much else when everything is so freeform. The same city block could see firefights played out in a huge number of ways so we just let nature take its course.

We encourage the verticality in various ways, from ladders to adding entire stairwells within a lot of the lower level buildings that allow the player to reach the rooftops from inside buildings.



IGN: There's lots of hidden things in GTA IV -- well, there's always been lots of hidden things in these games. Is that stuff organic where people at Rockstar just randomly go, "You know, it might be cool if we had this in the game," and it just sort of happens? How does that work, do you guys come up with a wish list of stuff you want to throw in there and build from that?

Houser: No, it's not as loose as that. On some level yes in that we come up with a wish list of things we'd like to do, of course, and things we want to redo. San Andreas was a very, very broad game so a lot of it was like, "Well, we just want to totally redo this part." It's not like we're adding fighting, we just want to make it more responsive. Something [new] is the cabaret. You can go to a cabaret in the game. (cnt'd)

Houser(cnt'd): Unfortunately, everything is a load of work and particularly working on these machines the one thing we've found is that, just as with actors and Botox, making video games and assets is a lot more work than it used to be because things are very unforgiving. Suddenly how you move between one state and another has to be beautifully animated and everything requires beautiful camera work and every asset is a lot harder to make even if you can make a lot more of them. So we can throw ideas in the pot but everything ends up being a lot of work. Everything has to be written, everything has to be recorded, mocapped, whatever it might be.

Cabaret really works because it's New York, and because he's hanging out with a load of Russian gangsters. You go out to Brighton Beach and there's loads of supper clubs out there, that was kind of what inspired us. We had some other ideas that we were playing around with, but it would work for this character in this city. With the radio stations we always wanted to expand the concept of media, so Internet was the easy one to add.

In some ways we wanted a more focused experience than San Andreas in this game; slightly smaller world, much more detail-obsessed and that had to not just be about animation and lighting, it also had to be about activities. New York was a broad canvas in some ways... [There were things] that we might have toyed with doing like rural activities. We weren't going to put in the Catskills and have you skiing. Fun as that would have been, it wouldn't have felt right for this game.


Looks like someone got their wanted level to 4 stars.

IGN: You mentioned the Internet, and I love that idea of being able to get in a cop car and search for someone's name and see their known hideout. I love that you have a network built within the game itself.

Houser: There's a bunch of little databases like that. I mean, the police one is the obvious one. The thing that people are going to get really interested in -- particularly on the second or third play through -- is all the news media. As you play the game, you're driving around and you hear on the radio the news change. It changes tons and tons of times as the story progresses. You can go on the Internet and read the same news. And you can read it from a Left Wing perspective, a Right Wing perspective or like a centrist hysterical "the world's gonna blow up" type perspective. They all bounce off each other.

Those kind of details, where there's always going to be things to discover was something -- we wanted it to be a really fun game to play through once and then a really fun game to play through again. We noticed, particularly with San Andreas, because there's been a long gap between games, people are still playing that obsessively and making up myths for themselves and finding new weird details. We wanted to really reward that kind of long, long play. Not that you have to do it, but if you do do it, there's lots of things to still find.

IGN: There was an RPG element to San Andreas that's not in GTA IV. What was the decision to take that away or scale back from that?

Houser: I think it was just a question of time and we took that out so early... We wanted to improve the animation so much and the character changing shape would not allow us to do that. It'd be arms passing through your own stomach and that kind of stuff. You wouldn't really notice it in the previous games or you'd [be] a little more sympathetic and we didn't want to do that this time... [Niko] has things to do. Rather than doing weights he goes bowling or you go to the cabaret. We definitely wanted to put a lot of stuff into that "hanging out in the world" side of the game, but we wanted it to be more activities rather than the gym.

IGN: Are there any rules you keep in place when designing the different outfits that players can choose? Are there limits to what you offer for customization so as to keep Niko from looking like a total fool? And if not, is there any concern that allowing players to dress Niko in ridiculous outfits breaks the narrative in any way?

Garbut: While it's fun to be able to design your own look for the [character] I don't see how it can coexist with a convincing story. We've avoided a "create your own" [character] for that reason. We want to tell an amazing story, that's not possible if the [Niko] can look ridiculously out of place. I don't think Goodfellas would have been such a great film if Ray Liotta had played the entire film in a dress with a clown nose and green skin.

We keep the clothes available to the player consistent with his character. There's a great deal of variety, but he'll always look like Niko.


IGN: One of the things we notice from some of our readers is that there is a disconnect in the idea of the pure, technical visuals of something and art. The two actually exist together. I think most general consumers only see the technical part, but don't know how to consider the artistic part of it at all.

Houser: It's a complicated thing, because a videogame is constantly moving. In every way. The guy's moving, your hands are moving, the worlds moving around. You can't reduce that to a screenshot. You can't even really reduce that to a video. It's hard sometimes to reduce that to the written word, to explain what's good about something or what's missing. What's intangible that makes this experience not all that it could be. It's an area where we're like, we're focused on the experience. I don't think this an experience you could possibly have thought that you would ever have on a PS2 or Xbox 1. So if you bought one of these new machines, hopefully this is one of the games you go, "Thank God I spent that money, because this is what it's all about."

That's what we wanted; that's what we set out to make. We looked at that in lots of different ways. Everything had to get better but feel like this integrated experience. And use the power to make it more integrated, not less. The design has to be progressive. It's not like you're throwing everything away. There are still bits of the old game design definitely there. The game still feels like GTA.


In rain or sleet, Niko delivers.

IGN: Aaron, do you feel that the "art" of graphics is largely unappreciated in the GTA series?

Garbut: I think it's always been difficult to stand up technically to direct comparisons with more contained "on rails" games. We build worlds that can be interacted with in a huge number of ways, that are drawn kilometres into the distance and that can be entered and viewed from inside or from 500m in the air. We have to balance the detail you need while walking slowly about exploring, driving past at 150MPH or hovering over in a helicopter. It's always about compromise. A balance of how fast the game can run with all the stuff we want to put in it and how much we can squeeze into its memory.

We populate our worlds with a huge number of characters and vehicles and again this has always been about compromise. There's always a finite amount of power and memory for us to utilize. Do we have three incredibly detailed characters onscreen at once or do we have 50 less detailed? Similarly due to the sheer vastness of the world and the amount of stuff populating it compromises have to be made. But we've always created compelling, beautiful worlds that have a distinct style and work as a cohesive universe which is a very hard thing to get right.

I've spend countless miserable hours of my life torturing myself reading what people have to say on various forums. I've had to develop quite a thick skin to cope with it all! But I believe that you can't separate game play, art, code, audio, music or the story. People experience a game as a whole. (cnt'd)

Garbut (cnt'd):I've read so much in forums about the [crappy] graphics in GTA, but the same people will talk about spending countless hours exploring the world and getting lost in the experience. The artists here have made that world and been part of creating that experience. Every compromise that we've made in visual fidelity has been to improve that experience in some way. I think creating a world that people can get lost in with characters that people remember and identify with and making that experience so cohesive that it starts to feel like a real place is far more important than whether our characters hands had all their fingers or the number of subdivisions in our car wheels.

I think we're all part of a collective that makes an experience, creates a world, a story, and the people that inhabit it. And makes it engaging enough to keep people interested. So I suppose what I'm saying is that no, I don't think the artwork is underappreciated. I think people love it; it's just that they don't consider it to be the art.



IGN: So, you created this massive world with tons of hidden goodies that will likely take more than 100 hours to fully discover and enjoy. And then you throw in a gigantic multiplayer component.

Houser: We couldn't do that before, because the machines couldn't -- The very base thing, the very entry point was, "Can we have the world running and play multiplayer?" And you just couldn't do that before. And now you can, so it was like, "Okay, now how do we make this feel, still, like GTA and not go to the way that a lot of multiplayer games end up feeling like a costume party."

What we're trying to do, I suppose, with the whole game is give you a cinematic experience but then extend that... So it's like you're the gangster, but you're not just the gangster in the bank job, you're the gangster of the full experience. That's what the single-player is trying to be like: put you as the star of your own TV show. And I guess the way that we look at multiplayer is you can't -- and we're still trying to figure out aspects of this -- recreate the full narrative experience. Instead you can recreate aspects of that, like how you can get a really cool car chase. So Cops 'n' Crooks is a great mode because it's a felling like you and everyone are getting the gangster experience. Now obviously, it's a section of a film rather than a whole narrative, but it does give you those movie experiences.


Multiplayer is all about Cops 'n' Crooks.

IGN: Yeah, when we were bumbling around as crooks I kept thinking, "Man, it's like I'm reliving Reservoir Dogs."

Houser: Yeah, which is brilliant. That's something that, I think, multiplayer games have been crying out for. In terms of accessibility, in a lot of first-person games which tend to dominate the multiplayer arena, there's a skill set barrier to entry that I think we kind of... you still obviously have got a skill based game, but it's going to be easier for people to get in and have fun and not feel quite so intimidated [in GTA IV].

IGN: What really impressed me is that you managed to keep the idea of an open-world game in multiplayer, which is something most people seem to lose. GTA Race, in most games you'd be stuck in a car, stuck on a track. But f I want to jump out of my car, jack a new car or just shoot people or set up a road block, I am free to do what I like.

Houser: That's what I was saying where the world has to run, and then you have to design around that, because that's what the game is. You can't throw away what the core ideas of the game are just to make something. Well you can, but it's just a different game at that point. If you want to make a GTA game with multiplayer, it has to feel like GTA. It can't be, "Here's a series of side multiplayer modes that have some loose resemblance to this game." It has to feel very similar, but there's living people running around.

IGN: Why isn't there's co-op throughout the campaign? Is that something were co-op is too much of a limitation to the story?

Houser: Yeah. We toyed with it and we felt we came to a compromise by putting in a separate mode that was designed and scripted and driven with more elements than the main multiplayer but less than the main story. Off-story elements that gave you both, but if you were saying that you would have to run around, make the whole game co-op, then the single-player game would be massively compromised. And I haven't yet played a game where that wasn't the case.

IGN: Why do you think that is? Obviously co-op is going to be a big part of gaming moving forward. Do you think there is a solution and that someone will find a way to tell a good story with cooperative play?

Houser: I'm sure someone will, but I'm also sure that at the moment you can't design a level using AI and then take out the AI and use another human being and have the level perfectly balanced for both. It depends on what you want. The game is either going to work better one or the other or you have to make two separate things, which is the path we chose to go down.

IGN: In our multiplayer session we've already perfected the art of the rocket jump.

Houser: Yeah. I think that the kind of loose in the world hang out mode, long term, will have a lot of life in the multiplayer world. Early on it will be the more structured games and that will come to the fore a few months in.


Choppers exist in single-player and multiplayer.

IGN: It will be interesting to see how that evolves.

Houser: I know. What people respond to. The only thing we've really done multiplayer-wise as a company was Midnight Club. By our standards very much a genre-based game. It clearly existed in a genre, with [it being the] first ones doing the open world stuff, but it still is a racing game. We set to make a racing game that was fun and progressive, which is more genre style than we normally get into. But we found from doing the multiplayer with that that after time just the free roaming around the world, becomes very popular, even in a car.

IGN: That's kind of how the single-player works too in GTA. Your first five hours, you're following the story and at some point you say, "I'm just going to wander around" and then you get lost in the world for five days.

Houser: I think creating that experience in multiplayer, that's why we put in [a free roam] mode. It would be the same kind of thing with like, "Well we can just go and hang out there and then we decide we want to beat up our friend over there, so let's go chase him around the world." It has a nice loose structure to it. That alongside all the structured modes I think is a good balance. The multiplayer is -- we're really proud of it. It's going to be a lot of fun for us seeing what people respond to. We've done a lot of work to balance it, to make it fun, to make sure every mode works. We've got a few ideas up our sleeves for future modes, but we want people's responses to what they like and what they don't like. We've never really done that before, so we did as complete a job as we could manage. We put a lot of modes in there, because we wanted to cover all the bases. Some bits are going to be incredibly popular and some bits not and it's going to fun watching that.

IGN: And that's one of the benefits of being able to modify your game after launch with online downloads.

Houser: Yeah. We're actually consciously not a focus-testing company. This is different to that... We definitely look at message boards, but we don't sit there scouring for this is the thing that everyone likes. We try and make games people haven't yet thought of. Stuff where people aren't going, "Oh, we should have that." Because then, well, that's not going to be amazing then is it? Our job is making things people haven't even thought of yet. In multiplayer, you're asking the player to be enough a part of the experience that you've got to see what people like.

IGN: One of the other big pushes for this generation is downloadable content. I know you probably can't talk about the downloadable content for GTA IV, but in general what is your view of extending the life of game through downloadable content?

Houser: Don't sell things that aren't worth selling. We've always focused on value for money. We're very conscious that games are a very expensive media product. A book costs about 12 bucks, movie tickets are like 10 bucks on Fandango, CDs -- if people even buy them anymore -- are $12 and a game's like 60 bucks. So we've always been conscious of it's a big financial outlay.

We can't guarantee people will love any of our games, but we do our utmost to ensure they will know they have been lovingly put together. The production values are high. We'll lovingly select every single song in every single game. We'll be throwing out one's we like because it doesn't quite match the tone in the game. We try out every voice. We try to make sure the voice of everyone acting stands out. If the guy's got a crap voice, we ditch the actor. We really try and do that stuff with attention to detail. Every mission, every mechanic -- we focus on the fact that it's a big commitment for someone to spend a bunch of money and a number of hours of their life [playing] this. We can't guarantee they're going to love it, but we can guarantee that they're going to know it wasn't us just trying to rip money out of their wallet without giving anything back.

Now in terms of how that relates to downloadable stuff, the business model is still very, very loose. Often in games it seems to mature as a business before it's matured as an art form. And I think that's an area where there's a danger of that happening, so our approach is going to be for everything: If we're going to sell it, we're going to make sure it's worth buying. And make sure it doesn't unbalance the game or make the game unplayable for everyone online in the multiplayer environment. And in the single-player environment when adding stuff there, make sure it's worth whatever money someone's paying for it.


Rockstar won't discuss DLC plans... yet.

IGN: And I assume also to make sure it feels like a natural extension of the game as well, so that it doesn't feel artificial?

Houser: Oh yeah... In general, if it's a very tight story game, as opposed to an open world game, there's often nothing you can really add. Add an extra level. Why? It's done. It's a story. With an open world game there's a little more maneuverability there, but we're super conscious that we want the games to be treated as serious medium. We take it very seriously. We love what we do. It's up to you guys to say if it's art or not. We try really hard. We're not in it just to go, "Here's an extra way of making a dollar." That's going to make all the people who already spent $60, half of them feel redundant. If there's anything that we're selling, we want it to be useful for people.

The game that you buy on the disc is the game. The extra stuff doesn't exist yet, but it exists in our heads... It's cool stuff. It doesn't undermine the individual game.

IGN: There's already a lot there for your $60.

Houser: The multiplayer game alone is a huge thing. The single-player game is enormous and other stuff you can, if you want to explore in the world, there's a $#!@-load of stuff there as well... There seems to be this weird idea that single-player games can get shorter. They can get more expensive and shorter. I don't understand that approach. It's not our approach.

[petemc]

God I can't wait :D That first hour of "Wow! omg! hahahaha no way!" Learning the roads and toying with the engine.

[leowyatt]

aye can't wait either, Kitten will have killed me and buried me in the garden before launch day ;D

[Belmit]

I don't think it's fair to judge a GTA game on just the campaign missions in terms of gaming hours; for the previous games I've spent more time getting the jumps/secret packages/emergency service/taxi achievements than playing the actual story. I'm guessing this may edge out Oblivion for me on time spent playing!

[leowyatt]

When playing saints row I almost left all the main missions to the end as I wanted to enjoy playing them not keep being distracted by all the side mission stuff. Though I think with this the first 3-4 hours will be spent just exploring and getting used to the game. Haven't really played a GTA game since no 2.

[Wossi]

I have booked the week beginning 28th off work so will have nothing else to do but play this :D I can't wait and hopefully gameplay will send it out a day early as normal.

[leowyatt]

Grand Theft Auto IV

More hands-on time with the one, the only, GTA IV

by: Tristan Ogilvie 07/04/2008

We’ve already given you our hands-on impressions of GTA IV once, but everyone has a different experience with this game, so we thought we’d given you a second opinion on this epic release. Read on…

There’s no denying that Grand Theft Auto IV looks the absolute business. We’ve been lucky enough to see it a number of times since its official unveiling back in the early part of 2007, and it’s only impressed us more with each glimpse. But that’s just it – up until now we’ve only been able to take it in with our eyes and ears. It’s like we’ve been stalking it, hiding in its bushes and watching it go about its business but unable to use our hands to rummage around through its garbage and uh… break into its house and smell its hairbrush…

Perhaps a better analogy would be that GTA IV has been like the classic convertible your dad keeps in the garage, consistently polishing it in front of you but never allowing you to get behind the wheel. Something within your reach that you want so badly, but you just can’t have it. Well this month dad went away for the weekend and left the keys on the kitchen counter, and we gave this beast a damn good thrashing.

Welcome home
To get us acquainted with the new controls, Rockstar handed us the controller and threw us out onto the streets of the new Liberty City. Initially everything felt very familiar as the GTA fundamentals are still in place – A sprints, X jumps and Y gets in and out of cars. But once we started beating up hapless pedestrians (as you do), the overhauled control system promised by Rockstar really became apparent.

Inspired perhaps by both The Warriors and Bully, you now have many more melee attacks at your disposal in GTA IV. By holding down the left trigger you can lock onto an enemy (or innocent), and then use the four face buttons to perform combinations of punches, kicks, counters and grabs. Niko’s moves are quick and deadly, like Jason Bourne’s, and he can even perform swift disarming manoeuvres.

A disgruntled bum emerged from a nearby alley during our bystander beat-down and came at us with a knife – but with a quick tap of A to dodge his attack and a follow-up press of X to snatch the weapon away from him, we were quickly carving him up with his own blade.

Naturally all of this excessive violence against innocents attracted the attention of the cops – who screeched onto the scene with their sirens blaring and tyres still spinning as they poured out of the cars and surrounded us with their guns levelled. Interestingly enough, Niko automatically puts his hands up when confronted at close range by the cops, and you’re then given a few seconds to decide whether you want to stay and surrender, and get ‘busted’, or make a run for it.

We chose to leg it – gaining a second star on our wanted level in the process as an instant penalty for resisting arrest – and hopped into a nearby convertible to speed off down the road.

Evading the cops in GTA IV is a matter of escaping their flashing search radius on your map and remaining out of their sight for a short period of time until your wanted level subsides. We’re not sure how intense the heat gets on the higher wanted levels, as we were only able to push it up to three stars during our hands-on. At any rate, after a heart-stopping stretch of cat-and-mouse – GTA IV generates in realtime a level of explosive car chase action that would take director Michael Bay a $300 million dollar budget to produce – our car was beaten up to the point that it broke down completely.

Note that it didn’t explode – cars can and will explode in GTA IV, but it’s also possible to wreck your transmission completely and leave you stuck on the side of the road struggling with the starter motor. Perhaps you can use your mobile phone to call for roadside assistance?

Jamaican me crazy
Targeting controls have never been GTA’s strength. While they progressed to a passable level from GTA III to San Andreas, they haven’t exactly set standards within the third-person genre. But things have most certainly changed with GTA IV, which takes the best elements of both Gears of War and Crackdown and merges them into one very fluid and versatile system.
During a mission called ‘Jamaican Heat’, we got our first taste of GTA IV’s gunplay, as we were tasked with providing cover for the spliff-smoking Little Jacob while he performed a drug deal with three gangsters in an alley. From the elevated position of a nearby rooftop we were able to pick off each of the gangsters after they tried to doublecross Little Jacob, by using the left trigger to lock-on to each enemy and affecting subtle movements of the right thumbstick to target each part of their bodies (a la Crackdown).

Headshots are instant kills, but you can also shoot the legs out from beneath opponents to make them trip and fall off ledges and so on. Big flicks of the thumbstick switches the lock-on between enemies, and depressing the left trigger only halfway down allows you to ‘free-aim’ with the right stick, in case you want to shoot a car’s tyres out, for example.

Good aim isn’t the only crucial element for shooting success, the use of cover is also massively important if you want to survive. Everything in your environment can be used as cover, whether it’s a car, a low wall, shipyard cargo container or park bench. We learnt the basics of GTA IV’s cover system in a second mission, also with Little Jacob, called ‘Concrete Jungle’, but before we get to the cover itself, we have to describe one of the most awesome moments that occurred during our time with the game.

Yet again one of Little Jacob’s deals went south, only this time the gangsters fled out the back entrance of a building – where we were parked in one of cousin Roman’s taxi cabs ready to pounce. We hit the gas and floored it towards the running goons, pinning the first two against a wall and killing them instantly, but allowing the third to make a getaway down a nearby side street.

We wheeled the car around and gave chase, tapping the Left Bumper to shatter the driver’s side window with Niko’s elbow and allowing us to use our pistol to fire a few shots (also with LB). Eventually we caught up to him, hitting him at full speed front-on with the car and causing him to roll up onto the bonnet, directly into our pistol’s sight, at which point we reflexively shot him at point blank range in the skull. SPLAT! Describing that short passage of gameplay as intense would be like saying that GTA IV is “just another GTA game”. A total understatement!

Run for cover
But back to the cover system. Later in that same mission, we drove back to drug den of the gang Little Jacob had been dealing with, in order to teach them a lesson in business etiquette. Kicking open the door of their brownstone apartment building, we then tapped RB in order to bind Niko to the cover of the doorway. From there, you have the option of either blind firing in order to remain relatively out of sight, or popping out from cover if you want to be more accurate with your shots. Moving between cover is simple; you either double tap RB at the edge of cover to skip across to an adjacent piece of cover, or just aim the targeting reticule at a piece of cover and press RB to move to it.

With the first two gangbangers down, and with Little Jacob covering us from the other side of the doorway, we quickly ducked into the apartment building and slid feet-first into cover behind a beaten up old couch. During the gunfight with the remaining goons we noticed a surprising amount of destructibility in the building’s interior, as parts of the walls fragmented from wayward shots and the garbage littering the kitchen table erupted into the air as the bullets continued to fly.

With a tap of X Niko vaulted over the couch in order to finish off the weakened enemies, once and for all, at point blank. It’s worth mentioning that when you’re out of cover and in the open, you’re not a sitting duck as you can still perform evasive rolls from side to side with a combination of X and the left thumbstick.

Get up, stand up
In the final mission of our hands-on, dubbed ‘Harbouring a Grudge’, we were exposed to both the climbing controls and a classic GTA-style getaway chase across the city. Along with a drunken wisecracking companion known as Packie McGreary, we headed down to the harbour side in order to perform the heist of a bunch of prescription drugs being offloaded at the docks. Using X to jump up and climb, and the left thumbstick to shimmy along hand-over-hand Tomb Raider-style, we followed Packie up the side of a shipyard warehouse, navigating ventilation ducts and an enormous billboard on our way to the roof.

While the climbing controls might not exactly be Assassin’s Creed-fluid, they’re definitely more realistic given that Niko isn’t a Spider-Man-esque hitman from the Third Crusades, and certainly if something looks climbable in GTA IV, you can get up on it.

From the vantage point of the warehouse roof we were able to plot our attack on the numerous goons guarding the shipment below. Thus we scrambled back down to hide behind an enormous shipping container as Packie opened fire on the enemies from his sniping position above. With Packie providing the cover, we systematically took down the 20 or so guards as their return fire thundered forcefully into the steel container covering us, almost rattling the surround sound speakers in Rockstar’s demo room right out of their wall hooks.

Wounded enemies beg for their lives, or scramble desperately to get back behind cover in order to avoid copping a finishing bullet in the back. Blasting an enemy right off a jetty and watching them splash into the harbour is also pretty damned cool.

With the goons taken care of, we jumped behind the wheel of a delivery truck laden with the prescription meds. With Packie in the passenger seat we sped out onto the streets of Liberty City, attracting the attention of the law as we steamrolled through traffic lobbing grenades out of the window in order to take out the remaining mobsters giving chase. You can change weapons while you’re in-car with a tap of the X button to cycle through the pistol, Uzi and your grenades. Like firing one of the guns, the grenades are tossed behind you with a press of the LB button in order to leave a trail of carnage in your wake.

Unfortunately for us – with all the heat on us from the cop cars and helicopters as our wanted level edged up into three stars – we exploded completely mere inches from our destination, and our hands-on was over.

Of course the good news is that we’ll all be playing the game in just over a month’s time. On April 29th the biggest game of the year/console generation/decade/EVER!!! will be upon us, and we’ll all be indulging in arguably the first example of true, high definition, next generation gameplay. Miss this and you may as well give up on videogames for good.

On the next page we’ll take you through a few of the other little titbits we noticed during our time with GTA IV.

Live and let die
A fourth mission was shown to us during our hands-on with the game, but unfortunately it was strictly eyes-on only while a Rockstar representative took the controls. Titled ‘To Live and Die in Albany’, the mission followed on from the ‘Truck Hustle’ task detailed in last month’s issue. Escaping from the feds with the truckload of stolen drugs, Niko and his two cohorts endured a lengthy chase across the city, before getting out on foot for a Heat-style shootout down an alley (complete with duffle bag hanging from Niko’s shoulders) and finally taking down a police chopper with an RPG.

We’ve witnessed few things as gloriously violent in videogames as a rocket tearing through a helicopter in GTA IV – in this case the resulting blast tore the police chopper completely in half, the broken tail rotor landing about 50 metres apart from the burnt-out fuselage on the ground below.

Break it down
While you can’t exactly raze entire buildings to the ground (that we know of), there’s nonetheless a great deal of environmental destruction in GTA IV. It’s all based on real world principals as well, so tacky wooden panelling in the low rent apartments will fragment and shatter when shot at, whereas steel containers like the one pictured are merely pockmarked by your bullets. You can even shoot the doors on cargo trucks so that they spill their contents all over the street – might come in handy if you want to create some obstacles for anyone chasing you.

Things of beauty
We really need to stress that none of the screenshots on these pages have been retouched, and none of them have been taken from cutscenes – they’re all in-game, baby. Stunning, aren’t they? Along with the high level of detail lavished on absolutely every object in the game’s environment, the lighting effects are also absolutely exquisite. Often you feel like taking in the sights from the backseat of a cab – which you can totally do if you want – cruising through the streets of Liberty City bathed in a late afternoon glow. Then of course, you can get back to the sweet, sweet lawbreaking.

[Davey_Pitch]

Isn't it the 29th yet?!

[leowyatt]

Isn't it the 29th yet?!

Nope. it's not :(

Just spoke to HMV and they say the game is going to retail at £49.99 so I'm stuck with that at the moment as the voucher is for there and I can't pre-order anywhere else anymore as they have stopped taking pre-orders :'(

[Belmit]

Is that in store? It's £39.99 on their website. Sucks!

And it wants to be the 29th. It really does.

[leowyatt]

Is that in store? It's £39.99 on their website. Sucks!

And it wants to be the 29th. It really does.

Well the store price and online are different. The guy I spoke to who said my pre-order is still placed with them said the computer was telling him a launch price of £49.99 but said that could change on launch day. So I guess I'm just going to have to wait and see.

[petemc]

Multiplayer info...http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=130970

Rockstar shed a little light on the GTA Race mode as well, which simply requires you get to the finish line as fast as possible. The entire world and its contents are available for use, so you can pinch a noisy moped to distract your opponents, or just pick up a bazooka and blow them up.

Hahahaha :D

[petemc]

Hmmm. I haven't yet pre-ordered the game and the reports about Game not being able to cover the pre-orders is a bit worrying.

[leowyatt]

I've just placed my pre-order with amazon.co.uk so I'll wait and see what they do. If I get it from them I'll not bother with HMV or if you want my HMV order you would be welcome to it Pete.

[Del Lardo]

I think I'm going to be in the US on launch day so will buy a copy across there to save myself a few £££.

[leowyatt]

don't think it will work on here mate.

[Del Lardo]

Will be on PS3 which is region free IIRC

[leowyatt]

ah I see my bad, thought it was on the 360.

[Del Lardo]

ah I see my bad, thought it was on the 360.

Nope, selling my 360. Got pissed off with it after it died for the 4th time since I got it just after launch.

[Davey_Pitch]

Hmmm. I haven't yet pre-ordered the game and the reports about Game not being able to cover the pre-orders is a bit worrying.
What reports? I've pre-ordered from there and they'd better get it to me on release, I won't be happy if they don't.

[petemc]

This one. http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=130982

[Davey_Pitch]

Ah, that only applies to the standard edition apparantly. I've pre-ordered the limited edition so I'll hopefully have no problems :)

[Joe 90]

Nope. it's not :(

Just spoke to HMV and they say the game is going to retail at £49.99 so I'm stuck with that at the moment as the voucher is for there and I can't pre-order anywhere else anymore as they have stopped taking pre-orders :'(

my special edition pre order is only £59 :p;D

[leowyatt]

my special edition pre order is only £59 :p;D

I know but I don't want the special edition I want to spend 39.99 on the game! I think I've got amazon ok as the delivery date is stated at the 29th :)

[Davey_Pitch]

my special edition pre order is only £59 :p;D
Mine was only £50 :p

[leowyatt]

yeah but that is because you have vouchers, etc :p

[Joe 90]

Mine was only £50 :p

:'(

mine is £59.98... ah well - still a bargain imo.

[leowyatt]

Can't decide whether it is fake or not.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5651/gta4ef8.jpg

[Joe 90]

looks real to me.

git.

although that upper right edge looks like its got a lot of silver... i.e. maybe a diy disk cover... :/
well if it is fake, plenty of efforts gone into that.

[leowyatt]

Loving the tash thogh ;D

[leowyatt]

2 new videos have been released. Liberty City Gun Club is one thing I'm certainly going to try out :D

[leowyatt]

Not long to go now *breathes*

*counts to ten*

Does that mean I get to live then? ;D :party2:

[leowyatt]

Got scans on this months OXM Gta IV review. Will get them up here shortly, will stick simple links up as they are enormous!

Here we go

Page 1 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-1.jpg)
Page 2 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-2.jpg)
Page 3 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-3.jpg)
Page 4 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-4.jpg)
Page 5 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-5.jpg)
Page 6 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-6.jpg)
Page 7 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-7.jpg)
Page 8 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-8.jpg)
Page 9 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/OXM-REVIEW-9.jpg)

[Joe 90]

wow - page 1 rocks...

/onward!


omfg - this sounds awesome now. especially this online stats stuff :D

[Belmit]

The 'orbs' bit intrigues me...

[Joe 90]

The 'orbs' bit intrigues me...

indeed it does - what could it be if you can hear it, and it fits in to a modern city and makes you want to search for more :confused:

[leowyatt]

a ringing mobile phone?

[Belmit]

Norks!

[Joe 90]

a ringing mobile phone?

yeah i thought abt that. i guess it could be... people's lost phones... each time you get a better model... :/ maybe.

[Joe 90]

a ringing mobile phone?

yeah i thought abt that. i guess it could be... people's lost phones... each time you get a different model... maybe.

[leowyatt]

Norks!

I don't think Norks make a sound when they're not moving around so they would be difficult to hear :p


yeah i thought abt that. i guess it could be... people's lost phones... each time you get a better model... :/ maybe.

I think you only upgrade your phone once so I'm not sure if you'd get a mobile phone more that you'd collect them. Then again the sound we hear might not be linked to the item in any way. Less than 2 weeks to go so we'll find out soon enough.

[leowyatt]

The HUD has been revealed and I like it :)

http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/hud1.png

http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/hud2.jpg

[Davey_Pitch]

God damn that explosion looks good, and it's only a still image! If they look that good in the game I'll be blowing **** up just to see more of them :D

Edit: No health system?

[leowyatt]

God damn that explosion looks good, and it's only a still image! If they look that good in the game I'll be blowing **** up just to see more of them :D

Edit: No health system?

Look at the mini map more closely ;)

Green - health
Blue - armor

:D

[Belmit]

God this looks good. The way the buildings melt into the background in the distance reminds me of other atmospheric games like in Thief when you went up on the rooftops. I wonder how long it'll be before we can't tell the difference visually between a game and real life.

[petemc]

You know what they really needed for this game? B&W. A mode where you can play the game in gritty film noir black and white. It is New York after all. You can see it in that second shot. There's a hint of colour but the way the lighting works its so suited for B&W. I might just break my HDTV to do that ;)

[Joe 90]

omfg.

/needs time machine.

[leowyatt]

You know what they really needed for this game? B&W. A mode where you can play the game in gritty film noir black and white. It is New York after all. You can see it in that second shot. There's a hint of colour but the way the lighting works its so suited for B&W. I might just break my HDTV to do that ;)

Don't think it would work that well in B&W :( you need colour for various things and explosions wouldn't look as impressive :p

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/203626.html

[petemc]

You're right, as a game it probably wouldn't work. However, I'd still love to see it that way from a purely photographic point of view. Cut scenes n such. Just cos I'm a b&w nut :D

[Belmit]

It would be great if they could make certain things have colour though, like all fire, blood, eyes, hair, that sort of thing. Proper Frank Miller style!

[Davey_Pitch]

GTA IV: Sin City :D

[leowyatt]

GTA IV: Sin City :D

Well with the strip clubs (private dances) and prostitutes (3 level service) I'd say it already is ;D

[Desmo]

Hhhhmmmm, still got enough birthday money left over to grab another game. Could this be it?

[leowyatt]

you know you want to ;)

[petemc]

Want to, no. He has to :)

[leowyatt]

True, you have to buy it Jamie, this is the game you need to buy! Just think of the MP fun we can have!

[Desmo]

Yeah, I saw those MP modes, sounds great to me :D

[Belmit]

I reckon this'll be the game that gets me properly into multiplayer on the Xbox. Hope there's a good range of achievements too.

[Davey_Pitch]

Hope there's a good range of achievements too.

There is, this is the rumoured list but I'm 99% sure it's right.....

Off the Boat 5G
Complete the first mission.

One Hundred and Eighty 10G
In a darts game score 180 with 3 darts.

Pool Shark 10G
Beat a friend at pool.

King of QUB3D 15G
Beat the High Score in QUB3D

Finish Him 15G
Complete 10 melee counters in 4 minutes

Genetically Superior 25G
Come first in 20 singleplayer street races.

Wheelie Rider 30G
Do a wheelie lasting at least 500 feet on a motorbike.

Gobble Gobble 10G
Score 3 strikes in a row, a turkey, in 10-pin bowling.

Driving Mr. Bellic 10G
Unlock the special ability of taxi.

Rolled Over 30G
Do 5 car rolls in a row from one crash.

Walk Free 50G
Lose a 4 star wanted rating by outrunning the cops.

Courier Service 10G
Complete all 10 package delivery jobs.

Retail Therapy 10G
Unlock the special ability of buying guns from a friend.

Chain Reaction 20G
You must blow up 10 vehicles in 10 seconds.

One Man Army 40G
Survive 5 minutes on 6 star wanted level.

Lowest Point 5G
Complete mission "Roman's Sorrow".

Over Fulfilled 10G
Complete all 10 Exotic Export orders.

Manhunt 15G
Complete the most wanted side missions from the police computer.

Cleaned the Mean Streets 20G
Capture 20 criminals through the police computer.

Fed The Fish 5G
Complete the mission "Uncle Vlad".

It'll Cost Ya 5G
Complete a taxi ride without skipping from one island to another.

Sightseer 5G
Fly on all helicopter tours of Liberty City.

Warm Coffee 5G
Successfully date a girl to be invited into her house.

That's How We Roll! 10G
Unlock the special ability of helicopter.

Half Million 55G
Reach a balance of $500,000.

Impossible Trinity 10G
Complete mission "Museum Piece".

Full Exploration 20G
Unlock all the islands.

You Got The Message 20G
Deliver all 30 cars ordered through text message.

Dare Devil 30G
Complete 100% of the unique stunt jumps.

Assassin's Greed 20G
Complete all 9 assassin missions.

Endangered Species 50G
Collect every hidden package in the game.

Under the Radar 40G
Fly underneath the main bridges in the game that cross water with a helicopter.

Dial B For Bomb 10G
Unlock the special ability of phoning for a bomb to be placed.

Gracefully Taken 10G
Complete mission "I'll Take Her".

Liberty City (5) 20G
After meeting all possible friends, the ones left alive all like you above 90%.

No More Strangers 5G
Meet all random characters.

That Special Someone 10G
Complete mission "That Special Someone".

You Won! 60G
Complete the final mission.

Liberty City Minute 30G
Complete the story missions in less than 30 hours.

Key To The City 100G
Achieve 100% in "Game progress" statistic.

Teamplayer 10G
Kill 5 players who are not in your team, in any ranked multiplayer team game.

Cut Your Teeth 5G
Earn a personal rank promotion in multiplayer

Join The Midnight Club 10G
Win a ranked multiplayer race without damaging your vehicle too much and with damaged enabled.

Fly The Co-op 15G
Beat our time in ranked versions of "Deal Breaker", "Hangman's NOOSE" and "Bomb da Base II".

Take It For The Team 10G
Be on the winning team in all ranked multiplayer team games.

Top Of The Food Chain 10G
Kill 20 players with a pistol in a ranked multiplayer deathmatch.

Top The Midnight Club 20G
Come first in 20 different ranked standard multiplayer races.

Wanted 20G
Achieve the highest personal rank in multiplayer.

Auf Wiedersehen Petrovic 30G
Win all ranked multiplayer variations, all races and "Cops 'n Crooks", as both sides.

Let Sleeping Rockstars Lie 10G

Kill a Rockstar developer in a ranked multiplayer match.

[petemc]

Kill a Rockstar developer in a ranked multiplayer match.

Thats going to be a pain to get. I need a spare 360 so I can play the game randomly since I have a time share plan with my parents and the HDTV.

[Davey_Pitch]

Thats going to be a pain to get. I need a spare 360 so I can play the game randomly since I have a time share plan with my parents and the HDTV.
I'm hoping it's one the viral achievements, so that I can kill someone who killed the developer, and still get the achievement. That's the way I always think they should be done.

[Desmo]

Has to be. What are the chances of people actually playing against a developer?

Is there a good/best place to pre-order this now?

[petemc]

I'd say nowhere tbh. Game are saying they might not be able to fully supply their pre-order list. I'm going to wing it. I'll see whats going down at local stores, any 12am launches etc.

[leowyatt]

Desmo get yourself down to a local 24 hr supermarket at midnight and I'm sure you'll be ok ;) I shall be doing the same.

[Desmo]

Well I'll be in no major rush so as long as I can pick it up for £40 somewhere in town then I'll be happy.

[leowyatt]

The problem is most of the usual places can't fulfill their pre-orders so are highly unlikely to sell them to normal shop goers.

[Joe 90]

Tesco Direct did have some in last week. not sure now.

[Daz]

I've been trying to avoid the hype for this. I know I'm gonna get it, but if I could hold off for a while, I'd save some monies.

However, Rockstar are doing something right. The closer we're getting to the end of the month the more I want it :|

[leowyatt]

Hehe I've not really got caught up in the hype as such, but from what I've read and seen the game is a must have :)

I'd put money on we seeing you playing it on the 29th Daz :p

[Daz]

I've been gaming a lot recently while I've been milking lovefilm... Dee might kill me :D

[leowyatt]

haha it'll be worse when GTA comes out.

[Haly]

Think I'll have to stick this on the rental list. It'd be a bit pricey to buy at the moment. And I guess it'll be quite a while till there's any price drop. Having spent a while reading through things, I am wanting it now though, doh!

[leowyatt]

To be honest Jen if money is tight, rental is the way to go on this :) you can batter through the single player and join in on MP but get it when you have some spare cash.

Only reason I'm not renting is the HMV gift card I got for Christmas.

[Davey_Pitch]

Think I'll have to stick this on the rental list. It'd be a bit pricey to buy at the moment. And I guess it'll be quite a while till there's any price drop. Having spent a while reading through things, I am wanting it now though, doh!
Best save your money for now Jen. With it being as popular as it'll be I bet the game rental companies will get a ton of copies in. If you put it at the top of your list you may get it quite quickly :)

[Haly]

Yeah I will do, hopefully it won't take too long to get. :)

[leowyatt]

I had bioshock and Army of 2 within 3-4 days of release from Swap Game :D

Admittedly I didn't have anything else on my list :o

[Haly]

Nice :)
My 3 month free trial ends next month but I'm hoping I can use another free trial voucher for a bit. Save a few pennies.

[leowyatt]

This a love film voucher? We have several of the 3 month ones, you're welcome to them, can email the code or what-not.

[Davey_Pitch]

I wouldn't say no to a code :o

[leowyatt]

I wouldn't say no to a code :o

No worries I'll find the golden card thingies tonight.

[Haly]

Yeah they are :) Mine doesn't run out till 14th May iirc (must remember to cancel it!) but if you've still got one spare then, it'd be really useful if you could :)

[leowyatt]

Yeah no problem, will get them tonight, they should be in the top drawer of the entertainment centre. I'll put them aside and when you want them let me know. I'll probably give Davey his tonight so he can get his trial setup.

[Haly]

Thanks :)

[Davey_Pitch]

Was just thinking Jen, I'll likely blast through the GTA story as fast as possible (I know what I'm like with games like that, I've 100%'d Bully in 26 hours), so if you don't get it as a rental and don't mind waiting a week you could always loan my copy. The online side of it doesn't appeal that much and I've still got too many games to get through :o

[Haly]

That'd be really nice if you could :) Don't rush it just for me though!

That reminds me, I'll have to blitz through Bully. Was good fun when I played it all day last weekend.

[Davey_Pitch]

Bully is excellent, I really enjoyed it. It's the first Rockstar game I've actually got all 100% on, and only one bit of it was tedious (the final few bits and pieces). One bit of advice I'll give is that when you get access to the Yearbook, take pictures of everyone you meet. It took me ages to find them all again at the end as I didn't take any pictures through the storyline. :)

[Daz]

Thats on its way to me now so I'll remember that!

[Haly]

Will do :) I haven't got too far in it yet so be a good thing to throw myself into later on.

[leowyatt]

Just read about the Comedy Club and looking forward to visiting it in the game. Have found out 1 comedian who has done a few routines for the game.

[Davey_Pitch]

Thats on its way to me now so I'll remember that!
I think it's an easy 1000, but you'll need a guide if you want to get the whole lot as there's a lot to do for 100% that isn't covered by the achievements (ie, an achievement is to get 250 items of clothing, but you need to get over 330 for it to count towards 100% completion) :)

[Desmo]

I've not read anything about GTA (even in this thread) but once I'd read the article leo scanned in, I can't wait for this now. Not played GTA for quite a while and this one just looks like there's so much to do it's unreal :)

[leowyatt]

Rockstar social club is now open for registrations.

[petemc]

Registered. Seems theres nothing to do but register.

[Joe 90]

/goes to reg

ffs, just activated and now i can't sign in!?!?!

[leowyatt]

Oh any anyone worrying about a delay you'll be pleased to know that it's gone gold \o/

[Daz]

'Sorry, you may not register with this site. Please see our privacy policy.'

:dunno:

I'll try again later.

[leowyatt]

strange :( you want me to try and register for you? I've got the screen up now :)

[Daz]

Nah, I'll just chalk it up to a glitch in the matrix for now :)

[Desmo]

I registered earlier on. Don't know what it does though ;D

Also just checked the opening times of the Sainsburys down the road. They open at 7am so will pop down there on release day and try my luck.

[leowyatt]

It's used to track your in game stats :) not sure how it does it yet.

[leowyatt]

Have a listen to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qi_2Xbg0Mh4&eurl=http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6859238) it's really funny. Watch out for swearies :D

[Desmo]

Hahahaha, superb :D

[petemc]

Awesome :D

[leowyatt]

Nah Sainsbury's isn't in the game. Nothing from real life is as they'd get sued. So they just make funnier versions of real-life things.

[petemc]

The constant playing of the gta4 ad is making me hate the game. I must have seen it 10 times today.

[Davey_Pitch]

It's a crap ad really. I want to see shootouts and car chases and explosions, not Niko walking around. Only 8 days left now! :D

[LeperousDust]

Crap, really want this now, hmmmm need and xbox first... I'll have to work out a cheap way to get an xbox since i probably wont use it much apart from gta'ing (i say that now :p).

[Del Lardo]

Crap, really want this now, hmmmm need and xbox first... I'll have to work out a cheap way to get an xbox since i probably wont use it much apart from gta'ing (i say that now :p).

Mine will be up for sale when it gets back from MS if you can wait a couple of weeks.

[leowyatt]

The constant playing of the gta4 ad is making me hate the game. I must have seen it 10 times today.

I haven't actually seen it once yet :p

[Desmo]

It would have been too easy to fill the ad with gunfights, explosions and other stuff. I think they've got it right :)

[leowyatt]

It would have been too easy to fill the ad with gunfights, explosions and other stuff. I think they've got it right :)

I saw a good point raised the other day. Has so many people ever actually pre-ordered/planned to buy a game before without ever actually seeing any gameplay footage?

There is 0 actual in-game footage been shown of GTAIV just lots of videos about various characters.

[LeperousDust]

Mine will be up for sale when it gets back from MS if you can wait a couple of weeks.

Thats very kind of you, but at present unless its a ridiculous price, my budget won't stretch :p :D Flat stuff, insurance hitting me at once this week. Things are tight anyways, i'm just dreaming of getting hold of one for GTA atm its much cheaper ;D

[Davey_Pitch]

Is your phone contract up for renewal at all Alex? You could get a free 360 with a new phone probably :)

[leowyatt]

Is your phone contract up for renewal at all Alex? You could get a free 360 with a new phone probably :)

Here is the link :)
http://shop.carphonewarehouse.com/pay-monthly/xbox-360--arcade/

Also if you HAVE to get one of these :p
http://shop.carphonewarehouse.com/pay-monthly/free-sony-playstation-3/

[Haly]

In the past I've found e2save and onestopphoneshop have better deals than the CPW site despite them being the same thing. :)

[leowyatt]

Ah I see, was just posting where I remember seeing some deals recently and it's where we got our Wii from :)

[Haly]

They're still decent deals :) Just thought I'd throw a few more options into the mix.

[leowyatt]

Cool :)

[Belmit]

Yay! Take my money!

Dear Customer

Grand Theft Auto IV is nearly here!

Thank you for your order for Grand Theft Auto IV. The highly anticipated GTA IV is due to be with you on Tuesday 29th April. To make sure that we get this title to everyone who ordered it for release day we have had to start our picking and packing process earlier than we would for our normal pre-orders. As a result, we may look to authorise your credit/debit card from tomorrow.

Kind regards

Customer Services

Oh cock it! Just reading that I've realised I have an Apple training day all day Wednesday the 30th. Back late evening. Hurrumph.

[Davey_Pitch]

I got the same email, hopefully it'll get to me on Monday as I don't think I've got much planned for that night :)

[leowyatt]

Sorry to disappoint guys but you won't be getting ANY copies on Monday.

[LeperousDust]

Is your phone contract up for renewal at all Alex? You could get a free 360 with a new phone probably :)

It's not anytime soon, and they're not deals as such anyways, i usually renew my phone as just a contract only sim, i end up paying £5 per month for what would essentially be a 20/25 per month contract. At present i get 25% off then a further £10 off, i buy a phone when i want one when it comes out cheap off ebay :) So that wouldn't work for me, but i could do the same and grab an xbox (albeit next year ;D).

[petemc]

Sorry to disappoint guys but you won't be getting ANY copies on Monday.

Thats quitter talk. If theres a large enough group of us they'll have to surrender their copies of GTA4 to us. Who's with me?

[leowyatt]

hehehe :p

Seems the places all signed a agreements not to post anything before Monday.

[Haly]

Come Tuesday, you are all gits :p

[leowyatt]

Yeah but less than 7 days later you'll be revelling in the GTA goodness ;D

[Davey_Pitch]

Yeah but less than 7 days later you'll be revelling in the GTA goodness ;D
Indeed, I fully intend to destroy the game inside a week, especially at the weekend when I've intentionally made sure I have nothing to do. Lynnie has already been warned ;D

[leowyatt]

US, April 21, 2008 - Grand Theft Auto IV is just a week away. To prep you for one of the most anticipated games of all time, IGN is bringing you a week's worth of features. Liberty City is perhaps the most important element of GTA IV. Without the level of detail and the atmosphere of Liberty City, the rest of the game might not have been as great a success. So we begin our week of GTA coverage with a discussion with Rockstar North Art Director Aaron Garbut about the creation of Liberty City.


The setting of every GTA game has been crucial in dictating the tone and the mood of the game experience -- why did you decide to base the game in Liberty City for GTA IV?

Aaron Garbut: Liberty City was our first attempt at a fully realized 3D city many years ago, at the time simply making an open world that can be interacted with in so many ways was a challenge. We had a lot to learn and we were making it all up as we went. I think [the original] Liberty City was a great world to play about in and it was a great experience for us to make, but it wasn't New York. While loosely based on New York it had elements of many other cities and was as much a generic American city with a Manhattan-esque skyline in the middle.

http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/grand-theft-auto-iv-1.jpg
The city's bridges are closed down due to terrorist threats at the start of GTA IV.

Rockstar is based in New York and over the years many of us have been over from Edinburgh numerous times. We all knew what an amazing, diverse, vibrant, cinematic city it is. And the guys in the New York office lived that every day. I think because we really felt that we had never properly based one of our GTA cities on New York it seemed like now would be a good time to do that. And since we were hoping to push the detail, variety and life, for lack of a better word, to such a degree it seemed that basing the game in a city so synonymous with these things was a great fit.

In GTA IV, Liberty City is much closer to New York than it was in GTA III. What prompted the decision to go for a more faithful representation?

Garbut: We've moved slowly in that direction through each Grand Theft Auto. In GTA III, Liberty City was very much its own place. It obviously had elements of New York along with other cities but there were no landmarks and nothing deliberately recognizable. In Vice City, and then more so in San Andreas, we started to take real landmarks and mix them in to our versions of the city. I think this is just us continuing down that path we had already started on. It's one of the reasons we felt comfortable redoing Liberty City. We spend years of our lives making these worlds we don't want to retread old ground and "up-res" something we had already done, that would be soul destroying. By going back to basics, throwing away the original Liberty City and building an entirely new city based on New York we were able to keep it fresh for ourselves and by extension for the people that will play it.

Apart from the name, was anything retained from the old version of Liberty City or did you start fresh?

Garbut: There's nothing that links them other than name and general feel. We started from scratch. Looking to New York itself as a basis and reference point, not to our old work. There might be a few references to GTAIII our artists have slipped in there but that's all they are, it's a completely reinvented, fresh take on Liberty City as New York, rather than Liberty City as an American metropolis. It's important to stress though that we never limited ourselves in keeping faithful to the real city. We treated Liberty as a separate place just as we had in the past. It's a distilled, exaggerated New York, a caricature of a city and not a brick for brick recreation. We exaggerated the best and worst bits, twisted the real city to suit our needs and left out whatever we felt wasn't necessary.


How large is this Liberty City compared to the version in GTA III?

Garbut: In terms of pure landmass its roughly three times as big. But it's far more dense, varied and detailed. I didn't actually realize how much more dense and detailed until I reminded myself just now by overlaying the two maps. There is so much more of everything in GTAIV.

The architecture in the game is stunning, particularly the skyscrapers of Algonquin and the level of detail in building design is mind-boggling. Do you have any architects working on your team?

Garbut: We have a broad cross-section of backgrounds on the art team, architects among them. But every artist has a great eye for both detail and the bigger picture. The same artists model the buildings, lay out the city and place the props. Everyone on the team has dedicated a large part of their lives over the past three years to create as detailed a city as possible, and every one of them has taken a great deal of pride in making their own part of the game as unique, crafted and beautiful as they could.

Every building looks different, every street corner has its own unique feel, even the textures on the road surfaces look different. How did you collect all the source material that must have been involved?

Garbut: First, we flew the entire team out to spend some time in New York at the start of the project, we do this at the start of each GTA. The guys in the New York office did an amazing job of organizing this so we could see all the best and worst parts of the city. Again we do this for every GTA, we take the research very seriously and I think we all have numerous stories of the weird or scary things that we end up seeing and experiencing or the bizarre places we end up. For those who hadn't been it is also a chance to get a feel for the place.

We took around a quarter of a million photos and a silly amount of video footage. We spent another year or so working up the city based on this research then about a year or so ago we flew a smaller group across for more research. We also had a full time research team based in New York to handle our numerous little requests for particular details – anything from ethnic breakdowns of particular areas to photos of certain interior types or videos of traffic patterns. I have 20 DVDs of traffic flows at random junctions at various times of the day sitting on my desk here as an example, and a few hours of footage of a night in a Russian supper club. They also sent across various reports, census data, even information on drainage, sewage, electrical and other infrastructure. Some of this is obviously superfluous in some respects, but it's important to start everyone thinking about how something works so they can build with that in mind.

http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/grand-theft-auto-iv-2.jpg
What we wouldn't give for an upskirt shot of the Statue of Happiness.

I keep seeing game worlds of sprawling futuristic metropolis or whatever and the first thing that occurs to me is where the hell do people buy milk, where do they get a cup of coffee? It's too easy to get lost in the aesthetics of something and forget to think in those terms. How does it work? How do these people live their lives? Where do they eat? Where do they work? How do they get home? Where do they park their cars? When you start thinking along those lines it gets easier to work on something of this scale. It's emulating life so you have to imagine living in the world you are making.

How do you fit so much detail for such a large city onto a single disc?

Garbut:We have some very sophisticated compression algorithms that are working some black magic on the data. We're used to squeezing a lot onto a disk.

Every street in the game has a name. What prompted the decision to go into that much detail?

Garbut: Detail was a bit of a mantra across every aspect of the project. Our goal was to distill GTA down into its core elements and add an intense amount of detail and finesse. Whether graphical or otherwise.

The billboard scattered throughout the city really add to the sense of realism, particularly as they tie in with radio ads and the Internet. At what stage do the billboards get designed and who comes up with the ideas?

Garbut: The billboards themselves come fairly late in the day, maybe six months ago. But the design department has been working intensely for years creating hundreds of brands and products. The ideas come from all over the place from the designers themselves, from Dan and Lazlow in New York, from environment artists. From email threads. Anywhere, really. But they integrate completely with the rest of the artwork even to the point where you'll probably not notice, but it's there and it adds to the subtlety and the feel of Liberty City as a real place.

The character artists would use clothing and sports branding on the characters, shop windows contain branding at a minute detail for items they are selling in a corner shop window or on a larger scale the shop fitting, logos and coloring. You'll see branding for oil companies on barrels, gas stations and gas attendants clothing and then when you visit some of the more industrial areas of the map you'll see the same branding on industrial facilities. We even created history in the branding with older variations on old painted ads fading on the side of old buildings. You'll see virtual artists advertised outside galleries, see some of their work through the window and then see other examples in some of the homes you'll get inside. Tiny businesses, dry cleaners for example will have a store on a certain street, and you will see their van driving around the area.

http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/grand-theft-auto-iv-3.jpg
There's great variety in the pedestrians you pass in the streets.

There are stickers, graffiti, posters, signage, billboards, adds on the internet, phone numbers to call, company cars and vans, products, tv shows, films, radio shows, theatres, fashion, jewelry, food, drink, sweets, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals, businesses, perfume, institutions, law firms, banks, credit cards, garages, warehouses, car dealers, city services, shops, airlines, travel agents, sports teams and brands, the list goes on and on. And they are referenced and cross-referenced in as many ways as we can over as many types of media and situations as we can think of.

There's a real sense of diverse neighborhoods in the game, which is very close to the real New York. How did you go about capturing that feeling of diversity?

Garbut: Attention to detail and research firstly. It came from seeing the places first hand and experiencing them, and from taking enough photos to capture that experience. Some of the diversity comes from each artist having a lot of ownership over their own areas of the world. That's been a conscious thing since GTA III. Generally we create a road network and leave it to each of the artists to do what they want with their bit of the world. Obviously some key features need to be included and sometimes for various reasons a little bit of swapping about occurs but generally each bit of the world belongs to a certain artist. I think that ownership leads to diversity.

The pedestrians help to really bring the city alive. How much research went into capturing the right look for them all?

Garbut: Like everything else, a lot. The character department trawled through some of the countless photos that were taken and created mood boards for each area that collected images of what we felt were representative people from those areas. This was balanced by census data to give us ethnic mixes for each area.

When did you start designing the look for the peds? Did you worry about having to reflect changing fashions as the development process advanced?

Garbut: We started designing the look of the peds at the beginning of the project along with everything else. We were very conscious of fashion throughout this and all the previous GTA games. We've had discussions for years about things that to other companies would seem ridiculously insignificant, and maybe they are, but I think when all these tiny details add up they create something unique. We were never specifically worried about fashion changing on us. I think we managed to keep up with it. We have got a really current look to the characters that I think captures this moment in time very well. The character artists have done a fantastic job with this.

How many different character models are there for the people of Liberty City?

Garbut: Again, a lot! They are created in packs that contain various top and bottom half's along with specific props, hats, swappable faces and clothes, textures, etc. That way the same ped pack can create a huge amount of distinctive people. You can populate a street with a single ped pack and it appears to be filled with unique people and we have a good amount loaded at once. On top of them we have a large number of more unique characters for specific purposes, and on top of them we have a huge amount of story characters or secondary characters that help move the plot along or are used in missions. There is an exponential increase in character variation and detail over previous GTAs. I doubt there are many games that have this level of variety.

I heard peds talking in a wide variety of languages across the city, lots of Chinese in Chinatown, Russian in Hove Beach etc. How many different languages are represented in the game?

Garbut: One of the things I love most about New York is the amazing mix of people. We tried to capture this visually and for this to work as well as it needed to and to set the correct vibe of each area we had to do it audibly too. Its one of the many distinctive things about New York, as you walk down the street you'll see so many nationalities, hear so many languages and accents. So wherever it was appropriate we do that in Liberty.

What was the biggest challenge for you in designing Liberty City and its inhabitants?

Garbut:The scale. The sheer size of the city at the detail and density that we've aimed for is a massive undertaking. Similarly with the detail we've put into our characters and vehicles, the way we've added detail to the interactions with them whether that's through animation, AI, physics, audio or script -- simply creating all this stuff was a huge job. When you start thinking about keeping a consistency across that, whether that is a consistent look, a consistent feel, or even just a consistent level of detail or quality it gets to be an even more difficult job.

http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/grand-theft-auto-iv-4.jpg
Name these famous NYC landmarks.

What single design feature are you most proud of?

Garbut: Not one particular thing -- the opposite, really. I love the cohesiveness of the entire experience. It feels to me like a real place. The "living, breathing city" phrase gets bandied about a lot, but I think this feels more vibrant and alive than anything I've experienced in a game. When you have that feeling, and you are standing on top of a skyscraper with the world sprawled out beneath you and you know you can climb down and visit every inch that you can see and that it will all feel as vibrant, varied and detailed as the area you are in, I think that's pretty special.

[Davey_Pitch]

One week to go, woot!

[leowyatt]

aye by this time next week I should have played some of the game, assuming I can swing a copy from my local Asda :D

[Haly]

Indeed, I fully intend to destroy the game inside a week, especially at the weekend when I've intentionally made sure I have nothing to do. Lynnie has already been warned ;D

I'll cross my fingers you do :D But don't want you rushing it for me :p

[Joe 90]

hehehe :p

Seems the places all signed a agreements not to post anything before Monday.

nnnoooooooooooooooooooooooo :'(

i've got monday off work, but not tuesday :'(

and now my flatmates will no doubt miss the post man... :angry:
(hope its royal mail who have the code to our door)

[leowyatt]

nnnoooooooooooooooooooooooo :'(


If anyone is caught selling the game early then they will be barred from selling any future, rockstar, sony, etc games :(

I think midnight Tuesday is the best bet for all of us.

[petemc]

I really want to play the original GTA but theres no OSX version :( I just need to play GTA! I could play Vice City on the PS2 I guess but I don't really want to step into the 3D GTA universe till next week. *twitches*

[leowyatt]

I really want to play the original GTA but theres no OSX version :( I just need to play GTA! I could play Vice City on the PS2 I guess but I don't really want to step into the 3D GTA universe till next week. *twitches*

Hang on do you have an Intel mac?

[Davey_Pitch]

I'll cross my fingers you do :D But don't want you rushing it for me :p
I won't be rushing it but I reckon I'll put in between 30-40 hours in a week, so that should be well enough to get the storyline finished. I won't bother trying to find everything (assuming the usual hidden packages are there) until much later as I've got other games that still need playing :)

[Joe 90]

I really want to play the original GTA
i've been wanting to play them old school ones. maybe i'll push my quad core to them intense graphics when i get it setup later ;D

[leowyatt]

You can download them for free :) I actually downloaded number 1 the other day, will install it and play it during my lunch hour I think :thumbsup:

[petemc]

Hang on do you have an Intel mac?

I do, but I only have 2gb free. Not enough space to install Parallels & XP. I guess I could go into the next room and use the XP machine but thats far too easy :D

[leowyatt]

ah I wasn't sure if you could just run the app straight from OSX without installing all the bumpf.

[petemc]

Ah. Hmm maybe with Crossover. I forgot. I shall play. I just want to run over religious people and blow **** up :D I could play Crackdown but I've played that to death.

[Joe 90]

You can download them for free :) I actually downloaded number 1 the other day, will install it and play it during my lunch hour I think :thumbsup:

thats the most amazing thing evar!!!

/will leech whilst i go get my sandwich then play on my lunch, relieve this building stress level!!!! :angry:

[leowyatt]

it's install I just don't have any time at the moment to play it :(

[leowyatt]

Seems it's being sold on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GRAND-THEFT-AUTO-4-AVAILABLE-NOW-XBOX-360-PS3-GTA-4_W0QQitemZ280220161203QQihZ018QQcategoryZ32837QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) early :p

Gameplay footage out!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piCbOD_kEMs

[LeperousDust]

£135!!!! Jesus!

[leowyatt]

Oh gameplay footage, skip to 6 minutes in if you want miss the title sequence, I did :) I'm also watching the footage without sound :)

[LeperousDust]

Wow, looking forward to this, i'm gonna have to get myself an xBox somehow, boohoo ;D:D;D

//Edit: I hadn't seen the title sequence anyways, quite enjoyed it! The game looks like it has immense potential! I've not read much on it really...
The sound it pretty good, quite a bit of good banter going on between the characters, rockstar have done themselves proud!

[leowyatt]

Right, video was pulled but I managed to download a copy and you an find it here (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/videoplayback.mp4)

[Desmo]

Nice one :D

Watching it in a tick.

[leowyatt]

Got a couple more saved, but YouTube are taking them down very very quickly.

[Belmit]

Unf!

Dear Mr Beaumont,

I am delighted to let you know that your Preorder for Grand Theft Auto IV Special Edition is now being processed. The order will be despatched by your chosen delivery method in time to reach you for the day of release.

And unf again!

[Del Lardo]

mmm, looks like there's no point in me buying this game straight away as I have a GF who hasn't seen me in 2 weeks followed by a travel schedule from hell. Still at least I can save myself a few ££ and try and pick up a 2nd hand copy :(

[Davey_Pitch]

Unf!



And unf again!
Unf for me as well, got the same email :D

[Haly]

It's been leaked somewhere, and I've already noticed 1 friend on my friends list playing it. Can't view the achievements yet though.

[LeperousDust]

I don't keep up with games per se, but does this leaking happen all the time? I used to remember when games only ever got pushed back by months, never finished early, what the fudge is going on :p?

[Haly]

I think most big games get leaked now. Although there's usually attempts to stop it. Same with films really.

[LeperousDust]

But by leaked is that the illegal way (which has always happened) or retailers selling early? Also if it is the illegal way i thought the xbox was a PITA and a big risk to chip/hack?

[Haly]

It's the illegal way. And they're easy enough to chip.

[Daz]

The risk comes from Xbox Live bannage. If they catch you (and they're pretty good at it by all accounts), your console is banned from Live, which is basically the heart and soul of the thing. Not worth it these days imo.

[Haly]

I know a fair few people who have seperate consoles for XBL and just playing the games though.
Depends if you're fussed about the achievements then, if you just want to play the game, might as well.

[Davey_Pitch]

The risk comes from Xbox Live bannage. If they catch you (and they're pretty good at it by all accounts), your console is banned from Live, which is basically the heart and soul of the thing. Not worth it these days imo.
Agreed. I'll have a spare 360 when mine gets fixed, and though it'll be tempting to get it chipped. I'd value my account too much to risk doing anything which may mean it gets banned in the future.

[petemc]

I wonder how Rockstar will respond to the leak? Years ago they did a PR stunt whereby they stuck copies of GTA onto a billboard and say "Steal this." Now that people are stealing it its kinda funny.

[leowyatt]

Right I've managed to get the files online so here they are. The quality is pants and some aren't very long but it gives you an idea of gameplay.

Good video but it plays rather fast (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/speedy.mp4)

Fun with the cops (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/copsnrobbers.flv)

Fun in a red jeep (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/redjeep.flv)

We can watch TV! (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/tvfootage.mp4)

[Creature]

Don't know why, but all of a sudden I think I want this, despite not really enjoying the other GTA's.

Hmmmmmm.

[petemc]

hahahaha physics ftw :D

[leowyatt]

Better quality vid here (http://gamingdeity.com/video-1.mp4)!

[Desmo]

I don't normally get excited about games, but this one looks pretty immense :D

[leowyatt]

bit late to the party :p

[Desmo]

I've not been following the hype at all so only been looking the last week or so at some of the reviews and now videos. Can't wait now :D

[Desmo]

Nice ad :D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2102/2432558416_25a37a7ed5_b.jpg

[Joe 90]

:eek: my plans for the weekend have changed so i've switched my days holiday from monday to tuesday :eek:
gta day all day! :D

[petemc]

Subtle ad. Whats it for? :D

[leowyatt]

Expect some more videos online shortly.

[LeperousDust]

Wow this is turning out to be a spectacular launch!

I'm definately looking into xbox's now. Play have got an xbox (premium) and GTA for £200, seem a good deal but i dont really want the premium. I'd be happy with the arcade. Bu the arcade is about £150 everywhere and factor in GTA i've spend £200. I can't seem to find any deals regarding the arcade. And before you ask yes i'd normally buy second hand,and i've already looked on ebay, but my brothers RROD'ed and i've seen multiple on here go, i'd rather not risk that tbh :(

[leowyatt]

Dude, get the premium! You won't regret it, you get lots of good stuff with the premium. The arcade isn't as good. Or when it was the core is wasn't.

[Joe 90]

I'd be happy with the arcade

lies. nobody would be happy with the arcade. its crap. for £200 you can't avoid that deal.

[Desmo]

Yep, I'd go Premium over Arcade too. There's too much missing and for £40 difference including the game you can't go wrong.

[Haly]

I'm assuming the HD will be essential for DLC too, so for that reason alone I'd go for that even if you only ever plan on playing GTA4 :)

[Matblack]

Has to be the premium to be honest, the HD is pretty esential for all sorts of things, you can't get replays on some of the driving games without it and you can't store DLC

MB

[Davey_Pitch]

I'm assuming the HD will be essential for DLC too, so for that reason alone I'd go for that even if you only ever plan on playing GTA4 :)
Agreed, the Arcade pack is aimed only at the really casual gamers, families and such. If you'll likely get the GTA DLC in the future then I reckon the hard drive will be essential, so a Premium is the minimum you need to get.

[leowyatt]

Rain Effects (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/rain_effects.mp4)
hick....stagger...hick! (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/drunkongta.mp4)
Gameplay 1 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/gtagameplay.mp4)
Gameplay 2 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/gtagameplay1.mp4)
Gameplay 3 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/gtagameplay2.mp4)
Gameplay 4 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/gtagameplay3.mp4)
Gameplay 5 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/gtagameplay5.mp4)
Gameplay 6 (http://www.badasszebedee.com/images/gtaiv/gtagameplay6.mp4)

[LeperousDust]

Fair enough premium it is then! I now need to find it at a lot less than £200 :p Thats a staggering amount i can't afford! :D Leo these videos are fantastic really getting me in the mood to buy, are you on commision per chance?

[petemc]

I've placed an embargo on new GTA4 stuff. Its so close now. I want it to be surprising and fresh when I play it. However I'm so wanting to click those links :D

[leowyatt]

Fair enough premium it is then! I now need to find it at a lot less than £200 :p Thats a staggering amount i can't afford! :D Leo these videos are fantastic really getting me in the mood to buy, are you on commision per chance?

Nope just driving Kitten up the wall with all the GTA IV stuff ;D

[Desmo]

Those vids are great :D

[Joe 90]

snip

nice server... 10000kb/s download ftw ;D

[Joe 90]

oh ffs. just had to update card details on shopto - their 'test transaction' process keeps sayin my cards been refused but hsbc said that its worked 4 times. ffs.

in other news, i hear adsa in rochdale has sold out of GTA IV already.

[Davey_Pitch]

My order is on it's way, fingers crossed for Monday delivery :)

[leowyatt]

i keep hearing supermarkets are selling them early but none I've tried will sell me any :( bastards! :p

My HMV pre-order is being picked up for me on Tuesday, but might try a supermarket at midnight and see if I can get a copy there. If I can get one I'll just forget my pre-order at HMV, unless anyone here would would it?

[Joe 90]

yeah i just went to tesco over the road and it didn't have owt on the shelves :(

can't belive shopto don't man the phones on a saturday!!!!!! need to sort my stuff out - i need my preorder!

[Davey_Pitch]

It's been reviewed by IGN.com.....

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/869/869381p1.html

Final score: 10 :eek:

[leowyatt]

Mark - do you want a copy from our local asda if I get one??

[petemc]

I've also been hearing reports about Asda. Theres a HUGE thread on Eurogamers about it (http://www.eurogamer.net/forum_thread_posts.php?forum_id=1&thread_id=111916&start=1410). 48 pages and the short answer is that no-one has broken the street date. At least none of the big stores had last I read it.

[leowyatt]

Check out the thread on avforums. People have photos with a receipt and some are from asda.

[Creature]

I've been thinking of phoning up the local stores, but I have no idea what to say on the phone =/

Quite looking forward to this now, may even have to be midnight at blockbusters.

[petemc]

Check out the thread on avforums. People have photos with a receipt and some are from asda.

Hmmmm. I am tempted to try my locals simply because I'm worried that if they are selling them early they could run out by Tuesday.

I've been thinking of phoning up the local stores, but I have no idea what to say on the phone =/

"What oh. I have been pondificating over the purchasing of one of your copies of that there Grand Theft Automatic. I say old boy, what would be the chance of aquiring said audio visual stimulant?"

[Creature]

I'm so tempted to try that :D

[petemc]

Record it if you do :D

[Creature]

Bah, nothing at one, and the guy's gone home at t'other.

May try Tesco's

[Joe 90]

Mark - do you want a copy from our local asda if I get one??

me?!? i'd love a copy with the farse that is shopto causing me issues.

[leowyatt]

Well if I get one and HMV don't sell my pre-order we can arrange you to get it.

[Joe 90]

sweet news. thanks. you been to asda today?

[leowyatt]

yeah, asda, morrisons, nothing doing.

[Joe 90]

ah well :(

i'm still hoping that shopto will send my special edition pack out on monday and it'll be with me on tuesday!

[leowyatt]

I could even see the 360 copies of gta in morrions :(

[Joe 90]

:eek: did you ask for one?

[leowyatt]

do bears crap in the woods?

[Joe 90]

lol, but what did they say - "its not available until tuesday"?

[Desmo]

I had a wander around town yesterday to see if I'd have any luck (although I wasn't expecting anything). Game, Zavvi, Sainsburys and Tesco didn't even have anything on display. I went in to Woolworths and they had loads of cases on display and I got a bit excited until I noticed a "released on Tuesday 29th" logo in the top corner. I pushed my luck and asked but was told none in stock.

[petemc]

I heard a similar story about Woolies. A guy nearly got one but when the lady opened the drawer there was none in yet. I tried my local Asda just now but they were closed. They have some nerve being close when I want to blag GTA *shakes fist*

[leowyatt]

lol, but what did they say - "its not available until tuesday"?

yeah pretty much, they were behind shutters too :(

[petemc]

£34.99 in Asda according to Hot UK Deals. I'm definitely going to my local at 12am. Jeez that sounds bad. I remember queuing outside Game for Zelda on the N64 at 8am because I was worried about getting a copy. Store didn't open till 9am. There was a queue too. Now I'm waiting outside Asda!? I bet I leave with GTA4, munchies and so much coke that I'll be diabetic by the time I finish the game. Oh and of course new jeans from George ;)

[leowyatt]

When Harry Potter was released at our local asda the queues were enormous. I'm just hoping there won't be a big queue. I'm not too fussed if I don't get a copy as I'll have one tuesday night but it's worth a try.

[petemc]

I have no pre-orders. I just know I'll be dashing around the super markets at 12am :D I have Tesco, Asda and Sainburys all within 5 mins of me, but I don't think they're 24hr ones. I'm not sure whether they'll be open or not. Its an extra drive to get to the 24hr ones.

[leowyatt]

Do you want me and rob to keep an eye out for a copy for you? I'm going to try and get one myself so I can keep my HMV pre-order. I think Mark is after the 1 copy if I can get it, but if I can get an extra one I'll do my best.

[Joe 90]

Do you want me and rob to keep an eye out for a copy for you? I'm going to try and get one myself so I can keep my HMV pre-order. I think Mark is after the 1 copy if I can get it, but if I can get an extra one I'll do my best.

Think i'll be alright now dude - thanks anyway...
whoooooo just had another shopto email tellin me payment had failed, although this time my attempt to update my details didn't fail, so hopefully alls well and i'll get my special ed on tuesday. just hope they refund all these £1 transactions now!!

:D \o/

[leowyatt]

Ok mate cool. Pete do you want the copy if I can get it? You could pick it up from my office on the Tuesday if you're about. If you don't want it I'll just not bother going to asda at midnight :D

[Chuckles]

Just got a PS3. Do you reckon this is worth getting on PS3 or 360?

[petemc]

I think I might be ok. I'm going to try Asda at 12am and if that fails I know that theres Game at the Pyramids in Birkenhead that won't be open till 9am. They never do 12am launches so they'll have copies I hope. If not, HMV next door, Gamestation round the corner and Dixons too. Its never *that* busy at 9am there. I've always get my games without issue.

[Joe 90]

Just got a PS3. Do you reckon this is worth getting on PS3 or 360?

the masses, and me included say 360.

better online experience, better options for the future.

the ps3 has its 1080p, but i'd rather have the online features.

[Daz]

It's the DLC that MS help will sell it to you. They paid (supposedly) $50mil for a couple of additional episodes and some exclusive online modes that wont be on the PS3.

[Veteran Tyke]

The exclusive content is rumoured to be pretty big, I've heard Vice City size, but nothing concrete yet.

[Daz]

Aye, I did read that they might be cities in their own right. Which would be cool.