Gorden Brown is making it so easy for me [Archive]

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 19:11

When he came to (unelected) power I started thinking who I would vote for in the next election, Gordie or Dave. Now I inherently distrust Dave but seeing as in the last couple of months Gordie has doubled my car tax and now ignored a panel of experts and reclassified a drug that makes me want to giggle and watch TV to Class B massively increasing my chances of getting a criminal record should I get caught in possession which in turn would end my career as I could no longer travel to the US I think that next time round Dave will be getting my vote.

It's also good to see that the BBC is providing impartial reporting in this article entitled Split opinion on cannabis debate (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7387695.stm). That's not split opinion FFS that's two people who have both had bad experiences with a drug that for everyone I know who has taken it (30+ people) has been a very pleasurable experience.

The best bit of the article for me is
"He was smoking eight or nine ounces a week to the point where he had gone beyond using his cannabis to self medicate," said Anita.
That's like saying your husband was drinking 3 bottles of Vodka a day and ruined your lives! Of course he ****ing did he was abusing it to a stupidly high level yet Vodka is perfectly legal.

Jonny69

07-05-2008, 19:53

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 20:04

What sort of levels of abuse are you talking about for that effect? Drink half a bottle of vodka a day and see how long your brain lasts.

There is a very simple way of solving the problems associated with canabis IMO and that is to legalise it as it seems to answer most of the main issues associated with the drug.

Kids smoke it and it makes them go mad - Regulate it like alcohol so that kids cannot buy it
It is a gateway drug - Take it out of hands of dealers so that they can't tempt people with stronger drugs when they pop in to buy some weed
There is lots of crime associated with canabis - Take it out of the hands of the dealers
Skunk rots your brain - Contrary to media opinion most users I know are quite happy with weed but buy skunk because that is all that is on offer much in the same way that they would prefer to buy a pint of beer but would drink ansynth if that was all that was on offer

And last but not least they government could then tax the ****e out of it and use that money to reduce the amount of money they want for my car tax.

SidewinderINC

07-05-2008, 20:27

Justsomebloke

07-05-2008, 20:41

semi-pro waster

07-05-2008, 21:10

I'm not sure that cannabis needed to be reclassified or what it will achieve doing so other than potentially criminalising more people. I've got quite a few mates who smoke it, some very regularly and some only occasionally, of them most are still perfectly fine with only one mate finding that he got very paranoid due to the smoking.

I don't think that cannabis creates mental issues per se but I do think it is more likely to highlight issues that might already be there and perhaps would lie dormant indefinitely without a trigger factor.

I wouldn't vote Cameron over Brown on this issue but then I don't smoke cannabis and have never really been tempted to do so - I'm pretty sure I can do enough damage to myself with alcohol alone. :embarrassed: :)

//edit oh and having lived with some mates who smoked regularly you get used to getting up to find no bread, no milk and no cereals because they've got the sodding muchies.

LeperousDust

07-05-2008, 21:14

Yes but skunk dissolves your brain. Fact. I've seen plenty of my mates end up as morons because of it long term. My brother thankfully saw sense and got himself off it and stayed off but he's still an unemployed bum as a result.

That's not true, some people are just less inclined to work, or not be morons naturally, cannabis may heighten this uselessness, but they'll still be like this without it.

SidewinderINC

07-05-2008, 21:18

The best bit of the article for me is

That's like saying your husband was drinking 3 bottles of Vodka a day and ruined your lives! Of course he ****ing did he was abusing it to a stupidly high level yet Vodka is perfectly legal.

To add to my earlier post

I drank the same in pints per day as my friend had in joints per day (most days) during my second year of uni, pretty much for the whole year - He's dropped out of uni (after repeating his first year, and then not turning up to any of his second year) because he didn't ever go. He lied, stole and screwed up a load of friendships to get weed.

I was always able to get up, go to uni and pass and if I needed to stop drinking I could have done easily which I did do when my exams were on, and when I had coursework. He just didn't stop, and claimed he didn't have a problem.

Weed ruined his life, yet I've got through fine with my drinking.

I also don't see how legalising it to "stop kids getting it" would work, if they already get it now then what would stop them getting it when it's legal?

Flibster

07-05-2008, 21:37

I can't do either anymore. :(
Bollocks. :(

Bye bye Brown though.

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 21:41

I have an uncle that smoked a lot of cannabis on a regular basis, developed schizophrenia, was committed to a mental institute, became withdrawn, couldn't accept the real world, committed suicide.

I have another uncle who has the same story except he was not sent to a mental institute, still just as dead.

I'm all up for the reclassification, and all in favour of the stricter charges that will ensue if people get caught - their own fault.

That obviously sucks for your uncle and your family but IMO you could easily replace canabis with alcohol and see similary disasterous results.

Serious question for you.

I know you don't know me particulary well but I hold down a good job, I pay a bin full of tax and apart from occasionally going over the speed limit and enjoying smoking a substance that has been growing natually for 1000s of years I am law abiding. I have never been aggressive in public or convicted of anything more serious that an SP30. Yet because of a change in the law I could loose my career and potentially end up in prison for 5 years because I enjoy a using (not the word using not abusing) a substance that makes me and my friends talk rubbish, drink tea and watch TV.

In the grand scheme of what's wrong with the UK does that make sense?

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 21:46

In my day the first drugs you got your hands on were weak which gave you a chance to build up tolerances & get used to the whole Out of your head experience leading to a more gentle intro to drug taking.
Nowadays kids first drug experience is with top draw hydroponic skunk which Rips them from there safe little world where Mummy will save them & chucks them into a Whole world of potential mental issues.
If we was talking about the hash & weed of 20 years ago I'd agree with you mate but not these days with the factorys knocking out hydro by the lorry load.

And this is my point. Get it under government control so that the stuff being sold is not stupidly high grade so that even if kids do get their hands on it it won't mess them up.

Kids will get their hands on weed regardless in the same way that they will get their hands on alcohol. If alcohol were illegal in the UK the "dealers" would be selling bottles of super strenth moonshine that would be more than capable of killing kids in one night. Alcohol is legal so kids generally go for ****e like alcopops that whilst not good for them are at least a vaguely sensible strength.

SidewinderINC

07-05-2008, 21:48

There's a lot of things that don't make sense - and a lot of laws that often work out to "harm" certain people.

However that doesn't mean they shouldn't be enforced.

"moderate" cannabis use != "moderate" alcohol consumption

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 21:50

To add to my earlier post

I drank the same in pints per day as my friend had in joints per day (most days) during my second year of uni, pretty much for the whole year - He's dropped out of uni (after repeating his first year, and then not turning up to any of his second year) because he didn't ever go. He lied, stole and screwed up a load of friendships to get weed.

I was always able to get up, go to uni and pass and if I needed to stop drinking I could have done easily which I did do when my exams were on, and when I had coursework. He just didn't stop, and claimed he didn't have a problem.

Weed ruined his life, yet I've got through fine with my drinking.

I also don't see how legalising it to "stop kids getting it" would work, if they already get it now then what would stop them getting it when it's legal?

The thing is your are talking about two totally different people. I watched friends at Uni with very similar drinking habbits to mine (i.e. heavy) **** up, lose friends one by one and eventually drop out.

On the other side of the coin I've watched a good friend smoke several spliffs a day for 4 years at Uni and walk out with a 1st Class Honours in Electronics and Computer Systems Engineering (trust me not an easy task).

Just because a drug is bad for some people doesn't mean it should be banned IMO. If that was the case then alcohol would have to be illegal in the UK as well.

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 21:52

Just as a side note I realise that this is a highly emotive subject for some people and I'm very happy/impressed at the quality of comments/answers so far. Please keep it up, whilst I may not agree with what anti drugs people are saying I want to hear it so I can better understand their point of view.

SidewinderINC

07-05-2008, 21:54

Just because a drug is bad for some people doesn't mean it should be banned IMO. If that was the case then alcohol would have to be illegal in the UK as well.

I'd wager that more people are succeptible to the negative effects of cannabis than are succeptible to the negative effects of alcohol (when taken on a like for like level, which is obviously not a scientific measure)

And regarding your post above - I agree, whilst I disagree with people that toke I can tollerate them, as long as they don't do it around me. I cannot understand the need, and never will, but accept some people do - in the exact same way as some people feel about alcohol.

Justsomebloke

07-05-2008, 22:09

Just a shame we are on a public board which restricts me from answering properly :lipsrsealed:

In my own mind I'd like All drugs legalised so i can pop round the shop & pick up whatever i fancy at the time. I do feel that an Adult who lives alone should be able to do whatever he likes in the privacy of his own home if it does not effect anybody else, i.e. Get a crap load of hard drugs & go home & get wasted all week end. In the same way if 2 adults decide they want to get together & get wasted that should be cool as well if they are in there own home. Legalising it would reduce crime & guarantee a clean supply for those that use hard drugs.

On the other hand I would batter the person that sold my grandson hard drugs. As I use my own family to benchmark how I treat others then I cannot be for a legalisation of all drugs :(

Then on the other hand I cannot stand the one sided argument alcohol users have against us which is Completely unfair.
I have Never attacked anybody whilst stoned but I cannot post publicly what i have done to people whilst drinking, Needless to say it wasn't nice or pretty.
Piss heads go out & about smashing our towns & each other up every god damn week end even damaging property on there walks home but nobody says nowt about that.
I am bad because i smoke a little weed in my own home behind closed doors & curtains, Don't make me laugh.

Just one of those situations where I cannot be one side or the other. I want to be able to smoke a little weed without the threat of a court appearance but i don't want kids having access to hard drugs.

S'pose I would have to go with legalising it widespread & then controlling its quality & amounts being sold.
At least this way we could tax it & off set the losses that the non smoking culture has taken away from the coffers.

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 22:21

Then on the other hand I cannot stand the one sided argument alcohol users have against us which is Completely unfair.
I have Never attacked anybody whilst stoned but I cannot post publicly what i have done to people whilst drinking, Needless to say it wasn't nice or pretty.
Piss heads go out & about smashing our towns & each other up every god damn week end even damaging property on there walks home but nobody says nowt about that.
I am bad because i smoke a little weed in my own home behind closed doors & curtains, Don't make me laugh.

Malc, you've pretty much just summed up one of my main objections to weed being illegal while alcohol remains legal (for the record I think they should both be legal).

For me Mike Skinner does one of the best jobs of pointing out the sheer level of hipocracy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwDRBm-qbQI

Del Lardo

07-05-2008, 22:27

I'd wager that more people are succeptible to the negative effects of cannabis than are succeptible to the negative effects of alcohol (when taken on a like for like level, which is obviously not a scientific measure)

tbh I'd happily wager the other way but to be perfectly honest I have nothing more than anicdotal evidence and media reports to go on at the moment. Think how many violent assault are a result of alcohol on a weekend and how many people have done things that have seriously effected their career as a result of a night out on the piss with their collegues.

SidewinderINC

07-05-2008, 22:34

tbh I'd happily wager the other way but to be perfectly honest I have nothing more than anicdotal evidence and media reports to go on at the moment. Think how many violent assault are a result of alcohol on a weekend and how many people have done things that have seriously effected their career as a result of a night out on the piss with their collegues.

I see which way you're going there, and I totally agree in that case.

I was more referring to the long term mental/social problems of the self rather than to others.

Pheebs

08-05-2008, 07:20

I think smoking ANY substance should be illegal.

As for Cannabis to band B though... not sure. There's obviously some reasoning behind it.

Wossi

08-05-2008, 09:23

A few years back I used to go round a mates house and get stoned every night. The worst thing we ever did was eat re-heated McDonalds. While drunk we did try to steal a tree. The thing about getting stoned is that you can never be bothered to actually do anything, except for maybe reaching the crisps and attempting to eat them.

I've said for many years that weed should be legal, that way the government can make sure that it's safer than buying from dealers. As others have pointed out, alcohol can be far worse.

Jonny69

08-05-2008, 10:34

That's not true, some people are just less inclined to work, or not be morons naturally, cannabis may heighten this uselessness, but they'll still be like this without it.
Well there is a degree of this but everyone I know who has been smoking it long term has ended up seriously affected by it. Everyone else who quit after university or whenever have been fine. It ruined plenty of exceptionally intelligent people at university who could have had big futures but they chose to sit around and get lean every day instead.

LeperousDust

08-05-2008, 12:30

I think its still a question of abuse, and the the type of person that's susceptible to cannabis. I've got a friend who is the complete opposite (well i obviously don't know for sure yet becuase i haven't finished uni :p but...) she smokes a *lot* the mind boggles me how much she spends actually, but i digress, she's revising a hell of a lot more than me now, and is guaranteed to do much better, just like last year, in her exams. She's totally dedicated, yet very laid back about it (funny that!). So it very much depends on the person, again like some people go over the top on lots of other things...

Oh and Del Lardo you've got me hooked on the streets again, got all the albums on in a playlist now :p Some quality tunes and lyrics :)

Joe 90

08-05-2008, 12:32

lets bring this back OT... Gordon really is a Tw@

Garp

08-05-2008, 12:50

Do you honestly think the Tories will re-grade cannabis? Not a hope in hell, it won't hold water with a good part of the core Tory voters.
Your only hope is the lib dems on that front.

Justsomebloke

08-05-2008, 13:18

lets bring this back OT... Gordon really is a Tw@

Although this seems true I cannot help but think that he really wants to be a good prime minister. I get the sense that he feels as if he has something to prove & means to be a Good Prime minister. Whether he has the nowse to be a good PM is another thing but I do believe that his intentions are honourable.
This does not mean i will or won't vote for him at all & is just an observation.

Davey_Pitch

08-05-2008, 13:26

I think smoking ANY substance should be illegal.

Same here, I also think every drug should be illegal and stay that way. Given that I don't smoke and barely drink though, I admit to having a fairly limited view on it which is why I try not to get dragged into arguments/discussions about it.

Justsomebloke

08-05-2008, 13:41

You really need to open up on subjects like this mate as how else will people like myself understand your point of view.
I can honestly say that i think everybody has a habit of some kind whether it be Drink, drugs, Smoking. Are you telling me you take no thing at all ?
If so I am intrigued as to why you haven't tried them & if you have tried them why you don't use them etc.
Makes me sound like a pusher or pro drugs/substances but i am not. For me i think it is quite understandable why i have taken drugs all my life but then others would say it would be more of a reason not to take drugs. We are all so complex & individual i always enjoy talking with opposites.
Only purely out of interest & not having the chance to ask anybody else though :)

Davey_Pitch

08-05-2008, 14:15

You really need to open up on subjects like this mate as how else will people like myself understand your point of view.
I can honestly say that i think everybody has a habit of some kind whether it be Drink, drugs, Smoking. Are you telling me you take no thing at all ?
If so I am intrigued as to why you haven't tried them & if you have tried them why you don't use them etc.

Yup, never smoked a cig in my life, never done drugs, don't really drink that often (though I can manage a skinfull if I want to). For me there's just no appeal. I'm a happy person and see no reason at all why I should potentially risk my health (as there's no such thing as a risk-free drug) for a high I feel pretty naturally.

If I do have a "habit" as you put it, then I guess it would be games. They can chill me out and make me happy in a way drugs do for other people I suspect, though I don't get withdrawal if I'm away from them for a while, something I know can be a problem with some narcotics.

Flibster

08-05-2008, 14:45

Same here, I also think every drug should be illegal and stay that way. Given that I don't smoke and barely drink though, I admit to having a fairly limited view on it which is why I try not to get dragged into arguments/discussions about it.

Caffine?

Davey_Pitch

08-05-2008, 15:09

Caffine?
What about it? If you're asking if I drink it, only the small amounts that are in Pepsi/Coke, I don't drink coffee. I don't think it should be banned if that's what you're asking.

Flibster

08-05-2008, 15:11

But caffine is a drug....
An addictive one at that.

Davey_Pitch

08-05-2008, 15:18

Perhaps, but I'm sure you understood that when I mentioned drugs I was on about narcotics such as cocaine, heroin and the like, not stuff like caffine.

Del Lardo

08-05-2008, 15:42

I think smoking ANY substance should be illegal.

As for Cannabis to band B though... not sure. There's obviously some reasoning behind it.

Is it just the smoking or is it the drug use? Couple of my friends turn all their weed into butter and put a lump in a mug of hot chocolate. Takes longer for the high to hit but you get hte endorphines from the chocolate in the mean time ;D

LeperousDust

08-05-2008, 17:19

Flibster

08-05-2008, 17:24

Perhaps, but I'm sure you understood that when I mentioned drugs I was on about narcotics such as cocaine, heroin and the like, not stuff like caffine.

So it's just the untaxed drugs then?

Davey_Pitch

08-05-2008, 18:55

So it's just the untaxed drugs then?
Given that untaxed drugs covers everything illegal, I'd say yes, and add cigarettes into the mix as well. I'd be happy with that.

Chuckles

08-05-2008, 20:10

What difference does it make whether cannabis is harmful to the individual or not? Do you really want a government ciminalising you for taking something that won't harm anyone but yourself? I'd rather make my own decisions as to what I can or can't do with my own body.

Don't vote for "Call me Dave" on the basis of reclassifying cannabis though! He has no policies other than "Not being Gordon Brown".

Why don't you consider voting LD who actually have some fairly decent policies and sensible views on self ownership?

Davey_Pitch

08-05-2008, 20:16

What difference does it make whether cannabis is harmful to the individual or not? Do you really want a government ciminalising you for taking something that won't harm anyone but yourself? I'd rather make my own decisions as to what I can or can't do with my own body.

Couldn't you make that same argument about every drug though? Do you want to legalise the whole lot?

Chuckles

08-05-2008, 20:16

When he came to (unelected) power....

Remember that we don't vote for presidents. In 2005 you would have voted for your choice of MP to represent your constituency in Parliament. In turn, the Labour Party membership elect their choice of leader. The two things are not synonymous. Furthermore, Tony Blair made it clear well before he resigned that he would be stepping down during that term and they party still received the required mandate in 2005.

Chuckles

08-05-2008, 20:18

Couldn't you make that same argument about every drug though? Do you want to legalise the whole lot?

Yup.

LeperousDust

08-05-2008, 20:27

Couldn't you make that same argument about every drug though? Do you want to legalise the whole lot?

Tbh that would make most sense, and heavily tax the major ones, so we can milk the dependants, a bit like we do with cigarettes and petrol now ;D

Legalised drugs would be better in the long long term, implications in the interim and society readdress' its views would be horrendous though...