View Full Version : Builder Problem..
Basically... had a builder round to do our driveway and back wall. He quoted us up and the drive was something like £7000 and the back wall came to £315 - slightly more than other buuut considering he was doing the front too it made sense to go with him.
He did the drive - we paid him for it - but he said to hold on to the dosh for the back wall as he was unsure when he could do it.
About 3 months later we get hold of him (after trying and trying to get the bloody wall done) and ask when is he going to do it. After a few more chase ups, he sends round a relative to do the job and pick up some of the stuff he had left here from the drive (signs and a mound of things).
The guy comes, does an okay job and when Dan rings I say it's fine (but haven't studied it). On closer inspection we find out he's not rendered behind the wall, annoyingly leaving the breeze blocks showing above the grass line.
Anyway, we wait for Dan to come for payment/contact us and he doesn't. Two months on, we have another plasterer over to do our interior bit of the house. He says to me:
"Roge did a good job of the back wall"
Me: "Ermmm a builder did it"
Him: "Christ, hope you didn't pay him!!!"
Me: "Funnily enough he hasn't asked for payment yet. Bit odd really - he was a nice chap and did an excellent job of the front but we're disappointed with the back. I don't think he wants payment!"
About 3 hours after the chap leaves... *knock knock knock*. Dans at the door. I invite him in thinking "hmmm coincidence?!?" and we have a chat and he says he's here to do the invoice.
He then tells me outstanding is £400.
I'm like... eh??!?! No! It was less! We have a bit of a titter tatter and I couldn't find his estimate but knew it was somewhere and he was saying "oh no, £375 then... £350...".
Eventually he said "the reason it's £400 was because you paid me £7000 for the drive but owed £7075... but we decided to leave it at £7075 so you could pay me a rounded figure for the back wall (£400 instead of £325 making the total quote for all of the jobs £7400)"
EH?
I said "erm... we had all the cash in a brown envelope and there certainly wasn't £400 left in it after I initially paid... and we wouldn't have given you under for the drive because we wouldn't want to owe you!!"
I then explained it was a pants job and not done to our happiness and wouldn't want to pay the full amount anyway (which he said "you said it was fine on the phone!!" so I had to say "yes but I hadn't properly checked it and it was only later on that day I saw!!")
Anyway... he's gone off in a huff and said speak to Roge. What do we do?!?!? It's his word against mine really :( Really annoyed as he was superb with the drive. Am gutted.
Verbal contracts are binding. If he wants to try and argue otherwise the onus is on him to provide proof that the terms were renegotiated from that which you have paperwork for.
CaptRugWash
10-09-2008, 15:33
/SNIP
First things first, show some pictures of the pointing he has missed out. No doubt he didn't want to bend down and did it as a favor for this other builder. Is it just the pointing? If so, buy the material, mix it up and do it.
Write the builder a letter apologizing for the mix-up and send a copy of the original quote. Tell him how delighted you were and still are with the drive-way, hence why you wanted him to do the back wall. Take pictures of the crap pointing so he can see it's a ****ty job.
Send him the payment of the initial wall quote minus the material cost for pointing it yourself. Pointing it is a piece of cake and should only take a few minutes.
It's a nasty situation to be in because you don't want to fall out with anyone, but you want the job done. You sound honest enough, so hopefully he will be reasonable and accept your offer. you paid him 7K for a driveway, it's not like you're going to fleece him for £300 on a poxy wall!
as a builder can i say ttiuwp
I'll dig out my camera and take some photos.
Where he's missed out - it's about 4 maybe 5 meters along and about a foot down. It's behind the wall with a grass bed leading up to it... we dug out down and around it purposefully so he could render down beyond the grass line so not to show the breeze blocks.
I've just called up the chap who plastered our wall today and made comments about the pooness of the back wall. He's out at the moment but his other half said he'd ring back. I figured... if I could find out from him how much it would cost for him to finish the job and find out the technicalities of why he thinks it's a not so great job, I may be able to go back to Dan and say
"OI!
a) We only owe you this amount *show scanned copy of previous quote*
b) The job done wasn't finished - look at the photos *show copies of the photos*
c) It would cost ex amount to get it finished
d) We're therefore only paying you this amount"
I don't want to fall out but equally I don't want to be conned and pay out money for a poo job.
Metalface Mark
10-09-2008, 16:22
I'll dig out my camera and take some photos.
Where he's missed out - it's about 4 maybe 5 meters along and about a foot down. It's behind the wall with a grass bed leading up to it... we dug out down and around it purposefully so he could render down beyond the grass line so not to show the breeze blocks.
I've just called up the chap who plastered our wall today and made comments about the pooness of the back wall. He's out at the moment but his other half said he'd ring back. I figured... if I could find out from him how much it would cost for him to finish the job and find out the technicalities of why he thinks it's a not so great job, I may be able to go back to Dan and say
"OI!
a) We only owe you this amount *show scanned copy of previous quote*
b) The job done wasn't finished - look at the photos *show copies of the photos*
c) It would cost ex amount to get it finished
d) We're therefore only paying you this amount"
I don't want to fall out but equally I don't want to be conned and pay out money for a poo job.
Give him the chance to fix it first before getting someone else in.
Give him the chance to fix it first before getting someone else in.
yeh you have to do this legaly anyway iirc
Piccies!
http://pheebeh.googlepages.com/wall1.jpg
http://pheebeh.googlepages.com/wall2.jpg
This one is our herb bit! We've planted stuff there because we have been waiting so long to hear from him and our plants were dying! But yeh - it should have been rendered about a foot down from the top and it's not been along the whole length.
http://pheebeh.googlepages.com/wall3.jpg
Mebbe this is clearer of non renderedness!
http://pheebeh.googlepages.com/wall4.jpg
Showing the front rendered bit - but gives a better idea of how much behind has been missed!
http://pheebeh.googlepages.com/wall6.jpg
It may look like we're being fussy as the grass will cover most of it/you can't really see the breeze blocks with plants covering them... but that's what we were quoted for and expected. And when the guy was here I asked him to do it (he confirmed it with me a couple of times)!
I will see whether he will come back and finish it but I doubt he will! :)
nice garden
will the lack of rendering affect anything?
and why is that tomato trying to escape? :cool:
Nope not really - it can be seen and is unslightly but if we let the grass grow it could cover it :)
I think it's more a matter of principle - the builder dude thinks we owe him almost £100 more than he quoted originally and the dude he sent to do it didn't even finish the job properly :) So I'm being a finicky little wotsit over it ;D
And that tomato is running away from being nommed by meeeeee! NOM NOM noM nom nom nomNOMnomnom!
Fankoo for nice garden comment - I like it muchos (and you can only see the half of it there! - the lawn needs mowing but this old darn weather won't let us :(
@ pheebs
personally i think your having a laugh tbqfh
theres nothing wrong with that job and at £400 you have a very cheap job there
pay the man his money ffs
I can understand you stance, I`m a bit of a perfectionist and I hate jobs only getting half done
whats the bits around the slabs for?
@ pheebs
personally i think your having a laugh tbqfh
theres nothing wrong with that job and at £400 you have a very cheap job there
pay the man his money ffs
lol :)
Well thank you for the opinion, but just out of curiosity if he quoted us £315 - so why should I pay him £400 for something he didn't finish properly?
That's like going to the hairdressers, having all of my hair other than the back permed and paying £200 instead of a full perm price of £100 :) (please note - I am not a girly girl and last time I had my hair cut was over a year ago so pricing may be waaaaaaaay off here ;))
We're going to fill the gap around the slabs with granite chippings :D (once we've cleaned the slabs that is - they're the filth!)
cleanbluesky
10-09-2008, 17:04
Anyway... he's gone off in a huff and said speak to Roge. What do we do?!?!? It's his word against mine really :( Really annoyed as he was superb with the drive. Am gutted.
1) You're at fault for telling him it was 'fine' then changing your mind and not telling him.
2) You've agreed on an invoice for both jobs, check what you've agreed then pay what you've agreed
3) Just DO whatever you WANT to do, rather than look to others to approve your actions.
cleanbluesky
10-09-2008, 17:05
lol :)
Well thank you for the opinion, but just out of curiosity if he quoted us £315 - so why should I pay him £400 for something he didn't finish properly?
You shouldn't, but why are you looking for people to agree with you unless you doubt the situation yourself?
lol :)
Well thank you for the opinion, but just out of curiosity if he quoted us £315 - so why should I pay him £400 for something he didn't finish properly?
That's like going to the hairdressers, having all of my hair other than the back permed and paying £200 instead of a full perm price of £100 :) (please note - I am not a girly girl and last time I had my hair cut was over a year ago so pricing may be waaaaaaaay off here ;))
right just had another read and look at the photos
can i ask how long the wall is looks about 6 meters total and 1 meter high ? and did he do it in a day ?
did he charge you £400 for rendering this wall including materials ?
what cost £7k on you drive? i presume it was block paving? what was the area ?
1) You're at fault for telling him it was 'fine' then changing your mind and not telling him.
I accept that, but I did call him and leave a message to get back to me (about it and monies wise) and he hasn't contacted me until today :)
2) You've agreed on an invoice for both jobs, check what you've agreed then pay what you've agreed
Yup I have the invoices - he's saying we owe more though hence why I was confuddled!
3) Just DO whatever you WANT to do, rather than look to others to approve your actions.
ooOOoo tetchy :p So much for discussing things with people online and looking for reassurance! I've learned today from this thread I should let him try and finish the job prior to anything else - so that's one thing I've got out of it :)
I like you CBS. You're a very Love Hate person! :p
right just had another read and look at the photos
So what do you think of the job then? I think it's unfinished and the guy shouldn't be paid until it's done properly and for the agreed amount, no more, no less.
Typical builders IME.
well i want to know the answers to my questions tbh and i feel my initial post was more of a knee jerk reaction
i am thinking that she has been ripped off tbh but would like to know what the £7k covered
Hang on Luke! My measurements are POO!
The drive is actually... I'll find a piccie... it's tarmac buuut there was a hell of alot of excavation. He was in fact one of the cheapest - one stoopido quote being £17000! Haw dee haw haw! It's a HUGE drive too (stupido council planning permission people forcing us to make it enormous!) but yeh, it's awesome. Couldn't have asked for a better job.
This was it before (bad perspective - it's a really high up http://roger.picton.googlepages.com/drivebegin.jpg
This is it done:
http://roger.picton.googlepages.com/drive5.jpg
The wall length... I really don't know! It's about a meter in height yeh! The guy was here for about 5 hours one day (though during this time he went and bought the materials which took him fooooooorever (well an hour or two) and then spent about 30mins tidying away stuff Dan had left from the driveway) and about 6 hours the next (including packing up time which took him over an hour and an hour maybe hour and a half out for lunch)
I don't know whether that's good or bad or what :) All I know quote wise he was really good - the back wall was a little more (£20 odd) than others but we figured it made sense having him do it with him doing the front :)
*edit* you can't see the bank in that initial piccie either - it's to the right and ENORMOUS! Tis where the fence is now :) But yeh... stupid amount of clearing!
Honestly don't think we've been conned quote wise for either. We had plenty done and did our research and all in all he was either cheaper or on parr than others.
You shouldn't, but why are you looking for people to agree with you unless you doubt the situation yourself?
Is she looking for agreement? or is she looking for friendly advice from friends over a tricky situation? :confused:
We're newbie house owners (well, 2 years experience)and are feeling our way around the DIY and rent-a-guy market so advice from people with more experience has been sought. Personally I figured £315 was a great price, but as hes been a pain in the backside to get in contact over the last 5 months and the job has not been completed as quoted - I dont see your point to be valid in any way - other than saying "its fine from what I can see" over the phone being a mistake but hardly a crime.
As I said, it's black and white. The price was agreed, the job was unfinished, he should finish the job and only then should he get paid, strictly the agreed amount.
As I said, it's black and white. The price was agreed, the job was unfinished, he should finish the job and only then should he get paid, strictly the agreed amount.
I think this is a plan batman!
*lets hope he's not going to kick up a fuss over finishing the job*
*edit* Fankoo! :D
i dunno tbh
for me i think the moaning about the back not rendered is very picky as it will be green with mold and moss in a years time
If he said he was going to do the rendering on the back, he should have done it whether he thought it seemed picky or not.
If he said he was going to do the rendering on the back, he should have done it whether he thought it seemed picky or not.
tbh id have just rubbed some mud over the back
Justsomebloke
10-09-2008, 18:26
Here's my take with Smileys.
7k for that Drive :shocked:
It wants to be ******** well footed for that & I would want to be able to park a Tank or my Jumbo jet on it during a heatwave & expect No sinkage. If I could do that then maybe it'd be worth 7 large.
Back bit for 325 seems about right & if a dude misses a bit then he brings that in on the Snagging Before final payment.
I'd just pay him & hold back 100 quid for Snagging, Perfectly reasonable in the building trade. That way He'll probably say Crap Sorry love didn't know I'd missed a bit I've got some of that in the van or I'll nip down the road for a bit & bring it in now, He gets on & does it & you pay him off JD.
I'd phone him again an say a Little Sorry for getting your knickers in a twist & ask politely whether he could pop back & bring that last bit in. Don't threaten him or owt, A better approach would be to mention that you wouldn't be able to get that stuff (Render) & don't really have a clue etc. Mentioning how pleased you are with the overall job will help an all.
Not about kissing arse just keeping on the right side of people to get the best from them :)
tbh id have just rubbed some mud over the back
LOL! I hope you're joking!
Here's my take with Smileys.
7k for that Drive :shocked:
It wants to be ******** well footed for that & I would want to be able to park a Tank or my Jumbo jet on it during a heatwave & expect No sinkage. If I could do that then maybe it'd be worth 7 large.
Back bit for 325 seems about right & if a dude misses a bit then he brings that in on the Snagging Before final payment.
I'd just pay him & hold back 100 quid for Snagging, Perfectly reasonable in the building trade. That way He'll probably say Crap Sorry love didn't know I'd missed a bit I've got some of that in the van or I'll nip down the road for a bit & bring it in now, He gets on & does it & you pay him off JD.
I'd phone him again an say a Little Sorry for getting your knickers in a twist & ask politely whether he could pop back & bring that last bit in. Don't threaten him or owt, A better approach would be to mention that you wouldn't be able to get that stuff (Render) & don't really have a clue etc. Mentioning how pleased you are with the overall job will help an all.
Not about kissing arse just keeping on the right side of people to get the best from them :)
I've been suuuuuuuuuper polite so far other than my *shock horror* face of him trying to charge us an extra £100 more than the original quote (well... £400 not £315 :) So hopefully he's not fuddy with me for being wude as... as of yet I haven't been! (I'm a bit pants at being rude to people like that though equally when they step the line I start put on my serious hat)
As for the driveway - trust me - it's reasonably priced! I think you could probably park a jumbo on it. It's HUGE! I mean... look at the nissan on it! It looks like a micro machine! ;D
LOL! I hope you're joking!
nope, and i'd have charged you a grand
TinkerBell
10-09-2008, 18:51
nope, and i'd have charged you a grand
Would it have been an equally dodgy job as the one he did on the back. Since you seem to think that the back is perfectly alright!!
Pheebs, I think you are doing exactly what most reasonable and sensible people would. You ask for a job to be done in a certain way, you get quoted for that job. The job should be done exactly how you asked, not partly done and then asking for more money!! I think that is down right cheeky.
nope, and i'd have charged you a grand
Then you'd have ripped her off.
Are you serious about rubbing mud into the bricks to make it look finished? :(
nah i'd have rendered it with mud and painted it with powderd milk
i'm ****ing joking ;)
nah i'd have rendered it with mud and painted it with powderd milk
i'm ****ing joking ;)
Well, you never turned up to do my garage door :evil: :D
Well, you never turned up to do my garage door :evil: :D
no because i talked you into getting a specialist firm to do it and not be a cheap arse :D
did you get it done btw ??
no because i talked you into getting a specialist firm to do it and not be a cheap arse :D
Oops, yes you did :o :cool:
did you get it done btw ??
Not yet - I've got to take some time off work so I can be at home for the quote and for the work to be done.
tbh id have just rubbed some mud over the back
Makes mental note to never hire this cowboy ;D
Makes mental note to never hire this cowboy ;D
I`m not even sure if he was talking about the wall :confused:
That's a bit pants Pheebs :( I haven't really got any advice to help other than stand by your convictions and don't let yourself get ripped off, but if you need some muscle you know where I am ;)
My parents had a charlatan do some work round at theirs, needless to say I turned up and the guy soon decided to change his mind - still I don't know why people don't take responsibility for their obligations :/
I`m not even sure if he was talking about the wall :confused:
Have you read the thread? It's about builders rendering walls and stuff :p
Have you read the thread? It's about builders rendering walls and stuff :p
it was a bit of innuendo but now ive read it again its quite poor :(
for the record i am one of the neatest and conscientious joiners you'll ever meet
and i'm cheap and pretty talented even if i do say so myself :)
for the record i am one of the neatest and conscientious joiners you'll ever meet
and i'm cheap and pretty talented even if i do say so myself :)
After this thread, you'll always be a cowboy to me :p
Anyway, back on topic...
Pheebs, what a crappy situation! I would withold the money until the job is finished to a standard that you are happy with hun.
And as for the extra money, pffft forget it! I wouldnt pay him anymore than the quote he gave hun.
for the record i am one of the neatest and conscientious joiners you'll ever meet
and i'm cheap and pretty talented even if i do say so myself :)
You should post some of that stuff you did - it wasn't half bad :cool:
A Place of Light
11-09-2008, 00:21
There's a good reason why the building trade has a "cowboy" image, even in this day and age. It's because there are a significant number of "cowboys" working in the industry.
As far as I'm concerned, if the OP wanted the wall sandblasted with crushed Kit-Kats.....and the builder was made aware of this request before tendering a quote.....then that's what should've been done.
Regardless of being picky or certain things being a waste of time, the customer is paying the bill and it's for the tradesman to do what he's been tasked to do......not his version of what the customer wanted.
A Place of Light
11-09-2008, 00:24
And £7k for the driveway?
Jesus, that's a lot of moolah.
And £7k for the driveway?
Jesus, that's a lot of moolah.
thats what i thought tbh
its only a bit of digging off type 1 stone, some edeging slabs and cement, basecoat and tarmac. skips cost like £100 each to get rid of muck, a machine and driver is £150-£200 round here, per day
i'd have thought £4k would have done it no problem
APOL! You're who I have been mistaken for over here!? Crazyness!
Trust me on the quote. We had plenty and there was a lot more than just a "bit of earth". That was the costly bit. Skips would have been filled in a jiffy - we needed proper full on HGV lorries relaying back and forth to be filled (took two to three days of solid clearing to get it down to the level it was required to be). The cost of dumping earth down here is extortionate too - and then you have the problem with the rubble and hedge (you had to take it half way to blooming cornwall to be dumped as others wouldn't take the quantity of it we had here). (We did check this out too and they weren't joshing :( )
He really laid on a good job though. I have never seen so much hardcore in my life - and the amount of tarmac that went down... well I hope like hell nothing needs to be dug up ever again! The driveway is quite literally huge. You could easily fit 6 cars on it - if not seven (once again not our fault - we had to meet the councils criteria)
The lowest quote I think we had was just a smidgen under 7k. As said, one company said 17k (ho ho ho!) and another couple of people were putting it in around 8 - 9k.
I know there's lots of cowboys out there (I mean... common the 17k guy either saw a young girl and thought "ha ha! We'll pull the wool over her eyes!" or just didn't want the job (after ringing them and saying "are you joking?!" I think the latter :)) but the two chaps we wittled it down to I made calls on and checked pricing against and it was sound.
Still... I agree... 7k is a hellish amount of dosh. It was half our share money we'd been paying into for 3 years :( BoooO! Still. It's awesome.
... unlike the back wall ;)
*waits patiently for phonecall prior to contacting Dan*
I have never seen so much hardcore in my life
You should look in the boxes under my bed and in the hidden folders on my computer ;D
Riiight...
Decided to speak to the plastering dude just to find out his reasoning why he thought it was a pants job so if when I spoke to Dan he said "you don't know what you're talking about" I could say "ermm... but this has been said".
Anyway. Plasterers comments:
1. The top had not been evenly aligned. Apparently the chap should have used some apparatus to make the rounded top even buuut instead he did some guess work.
2. At the end of the last layer, the dude should have waited for the stuff to have partially dried and then sponged it down to make it smooth. He apparently has not waiting and done it when it was still wet - making the wall unsmooth and scratchy.
3. He didn't finish off up to the edge of the wall properly (was all splodgey - Picky actually had to fill in in places with cork (??!) or something as there were gaps)
I asked him how much it would cost to do behind the wall where the guy missed off and he quoted £75.
Sooo I rang up Dan... and thanked him muchly for the drive way but said I was gutted about the quality of the wall at the back. I explained to him the problems we had (it wasn't a finished job and what was done wasn't done to a great standard - explained what I was told above) and then said to him I found the quote and it was £315. He still said we're outstanding £85 from the driveway but I know for a fact I would never ever owe people money if I had it. Never. And we had a whole envelope of cash so there would have been no reason for me to pay him up front full for the drive.
So yeh. He got arsey, said we owed him £400, I said it's deffo £315 - which we wouldn't be paying because of the quality it's done to and the fact it's unfinished. I gave him an opportunity to come and finish it - he's not interested.
Eventually he asked how much we'd be willing to pay and I said £200 tops - but hadn't discussed this yet with Picky. He eventually said we'd have to agree to disagree and that he'd want the money next week.
To finish off I tried to say how chuffed we were with the drive and how sorry it's ended like this. I said nothing could be better with the front drive - then remembered that one of the CATV drain top things got cracked when he reversed a lorry over it to dig out all our drive. Sooo said "Oh yeh... everything was perfect but I'm still concerned about the CATV drain cover thing... it's cracked".
He denied it entirely. Said it was like it before. Then said "they're as strong as anything it won't break anymore, but we didn't do it" and I was like "well how else did it crack if you didn't do it?!?! You're lorry man said he'd forgotton the metal covers they put over them if they're going over the top of them and should he go back and you said no it will be fine!!!"
Argh!
Well I hope we don't get the council popping round and charging us for a cracked CATV cover now. I will go ballistic at Dan.
Meh. Stupid builders.
*fully expects her fence to be rammed down tomorrow despite doing all she could to be polite*
:(
Davey_Pitch
11-09-2008, 15:53
Sounds like you did all you could Pheebs. You had the invoice, you had an independant guy tell you exactly what was wrong, and if the original builder doesn't want to finish the job properly, pay him the £200 and get someone else in to finish it properly. Just remember to not suggest him to anyone if they ask you for a good builder! :)
Hehehe :) Well we *ahem* picky *ahem* can shove some plastering stuff behind the wall if we need it... but tbh I think I will try and grow wee bushy plants and things behind it to hide it! Only people who look super closely will see it meaning we will be the only ones that know about it :)....
... well. And all of you lot!
When you come down here for BBQs anyone who mentions it won't get Pickys special sausage and my baps!
Sounds like you did all you could Pheebs. You had the invoice, you had an independant guy tell you exactly what was wrong, and if the original builder doesn't want to finish the job properly, pay him the £200 and get someone else in to finish it properly. Just remember to not suggest him to anyone if they ask you for a good builder! :)
What he said :) Pity it was such a hassle though :(
A Place of Light
11-09-2008, 19:35
APOL! You're who I have been mistaken for over here!? Crazyness!
Really?
Howcome?
I've got better legs than you, lol.
A Place of Light
11-09-2008, 19:40
@ Pheebs.
I'd suggest the trading standards angle. But drop it into conversation first before you jump in with both feet and inform them. Gauge his response, and if he doesn't seem too phased slip in a reference to the small claims court if needed.
Be firm, but let him think he's leading the discussion as people tend to be more likely to compromise if they, from their own perspective, haven't lost face.
Hi Pheebs,
Working in Architecture I have often had issues with construction teams, tradesmen and contractors- ranging from pay conflicts to serious cases of workplace negligence.
When dealing with non-contractual business, such as your case, there is a notable level of difficulty in enforcing any legal prowess, and from scanning this thread I would say your verbal negotiations are indeed at an end.
However, it would in my opinion be worthwhile getting in contact with the Federation of Master Builders (FMB) & the Good Builders Guide Tradesman Directory. In addition to these you may wish to contact the National House Building Council depending upon whether or not this chap was a Builder or simply a handyman type.
The feedback system available with these organisations are vital in weeding out the troublesome and problematic tradesman and builders in the UK- with more and more publicity and policies coming into effect that use the recommendation of such websites- it is important that both positive and negative information is reported about workers.
I know this certainly isn't going to help you with your unfinished wall and cracked cover but your input could certainly be the piece of information that stops someone else in future recieving the same hassle.
:)
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