View Full Version : Thoughts on Suicide
I watched a documentary/film last night called The Bridge (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0799954/) Essentially it's about the Golden Gate Bridge being the suicide hot spot of the world. It followed the lives of about 10 individuals and the events that lead upto their suicide and how it effected their families. In as much as the suicide was sudden, all of the people concerned had prepared their families for a long time for the eventual day. The sad thing is that these people had no contrast in their life. They didn't see the world as full of colour and experience. Everything was a black and torturous experience. One girl for example was schizophrenic and before her death told her family it was like having a conversation with 20 or 30 people at a time and for her she wanted some peace as the drugs didn't work.
It goes without saying that some of these peoples families will be tortured for the rest of their days as they take responsibility for the death of their friend or loved one. Personally I have never contemplated suicide but I have seen at least close friend come close. I am also aware that my Mother and Mother in Law also attempted it when myself and Sarah were very young due to the very abusive relationships they were in. Sociologically we can expect the suicide rate to go up over the course of the next few years as social unrest and economic uncertainty continues.
Can there ever be a case where suicide can be justified if that is the right word.
cleanbluesky
25-09-2008, 10:34
I think suicide is linked in with depression - I think depression is designed to get an individual to withdraw from society, the problem being that if they don't then move into another social environment and OR be brought back into the same one by the people they knew - then they're likely to commit suicide. Isolation is one of the predictors of suicide and that doesn't mean that a isolated person has no contact with people, it means that they don't get the right type of contact. From my experience, a lot of people with depression withdraw - and there is also a worrying trend whereby depression is seen as an unexplainable vacation that the individual doesn't have control over.
It's a very sensitive issue that often sparks volatile debate.
It is very easy to adopt an ignorant opinion towards the subject- thrashing out and calling those who take their own lives selfish and unthoughtful: a younger and less rational me used to think in this way.
Yet after having some direct relationships with suicides, attempted suicides and depression ranging from mild to manic/bipolar I have been educated in just how very deep and severely complex this subject can get.
I have a feeling that this thread may well progress into a debate that I will find too distressing to continue taking part in, however I thought I would at least chip in with my brief thoughts :)
NB - If anyone reading this page is feeling on a low and needs some un-patronising and genuinely helpful advice then I can thoroughly recommend the Samaritans: 08457 90 90 90... Ignore your pre-conceptions of this organisation, they are a progressive and excellent source of support for those who need it most.
I don't think anyone is really qualified to judge someone who is truly suicidal unless they've been there, really truly been there. I'm not talking about the 15yr old girl who take 6 paracetamol and then phones all her mates to tell them (the bain of the ambulance services bloody lives). I mean the people that genuinely believe that either they or the people around them will be better off if they kill themselves.
I don't think it's a selfish act. It's an act bourne out of utter desolate desperation and I can only have sympathy for people who are that low. I can see how people would think it selfish, and to those they leave behind I can imagine it must be impossible to see it any other way, thay have left them behind to deal with the fallout, they have cause all this pain etc. Rightly or wrongly I see that as a by-product of one persons suffering :(
cleanbluesky
25-09-2008, 11:55
NB - If anyone reading this page is feeling on a low and needs some un-patronising and genuinely helpful advice then I can thoroughly recommend the Samaritans: 08457 90 90 90... Ignore your pre-conceptions of this organisation, they are a progressive and excellent source of support for those who need it most.
I went through training for them and I disagree, but they are excellent for phoning up and talking to - I wouldn't call them support.
cleanbluesky
25-09-2008, 11:56
I don't think anyone is really qualified to judge someone who is truly suicidal unless they've been there, really truly been there. I'm not talking about the 15yr old girl who take 6 paracetamol and then phones all her mates to tell them (the bain of the ambulance services bloody lives). I mean the people that genuinely believe that either they or the people around them will be better off if they kill themselves.
I'm not sure there is a difference - I think every suicidee would like to be rescued but some are more hopeful than others.
I'm not sure I agree. One is asking for attention, one is looking for a way out.
cleanbluesky
25-09-2008, 12:31
I'm not sure I agree. One is asking for attention, one is looking for a way out.
Why do you think one is after attention? I knew a guy who set up a plan where he could be rescued by sending letters telling people when and where he was going to commit suicide - the problem being that the letters got caught in a postal strike, hence he went through with it.
I think that people want to be saved from suicide, therefore I don't think there is a 'cry for help', just people who are optimistic that they will be rescued. If they're not, I think they'll just go through with it.
NokkonWud
25-09-2008, 12:43
I don't think you can ever say suicide, certainly not in the mainstream usage of the word is ever the right course of action. People committing suicide because they are financially insecure, or have gotten themselves into bother is not right, never is that the right cause of action - nor those who break up in relationships are are down.
The only time I can ever understand it is if the suicide is merely a case of putting to rest illness such as people riddled with cancer or crippling physical illnesses, in those instances I can fully understand it.
The only time I can ever understand it is if the suicide is merely a case of putting to rest illness such as people riddled with cancer or crippling physical illnesses, in those instances I can fully understand it.
There are those who would argue that this isn't suicide at all, it is euthanasia - a totally separate debate with it's own considerations to take into account.
cleanbluesky
25-09-2008, 15:50
I don't think you can ever say suicide, certainly not in the mainstream usage of the word is ever the right course of action. People committing suicide because they are financially insecure, or have gotten themselves into bother is not right, never is that the right cause of action - nor those who break up in relationships are are down.
Why? Not that I'm advocating suicide, but I think its very easy to **** your life up through poor financial planning and what if a person is making the same mistake over and over again in a relationship? In other words, what if the situation is literally hopeless...
There are those who would argue that this isn't suicide at all, it is euthanasia - a totally separate debate with it's own considerations to take into account.
I thought a key difference between the two was that euthanasia directly involved another party?
I agree with pebs.
I think it isnt something someone would make a serious attempt at, unless there seemed like no other way.
But i suppose the other side of that is, that you never know what is around the corner, and sometimes things can seem a lot better in a short space of time. But if you went through with suicide you would never find that out.
Although I suppose to be in the state of mind to be considering it, the thought of things ever being better would seem an impossibility.
NokkonWud
26-09-2008, 12:15
Why? Not that I'm advocating suicide, but I think its very easy to **** your life up through poor financial planning and what if a person is making the same mistake over and over again in a relationship? In other words, what if the situation is literally hopeless...
Nothing is. Which is my point.
There are charities out there that aid in financial situations, not these that you see on TV, but actual charities that do the same things for free such as CCCS, so financially I don't believe can be a reason to commit suicide, which, certainly for any healthy human being is the ultimate act of selfishness towards their friends and family - especially those who have children.
I maintain that crippling illnesses, ones that are agonizingly painful and those that become a drain on family and friends are the only legitimate excuses - certainly from my point of view.
NokkonWud
26-09-2008, 12:16
I thought a key difference between the two was that euthanasia directly involved another party?
I also believe this is the case.
I maintain that crippling illnesses, ones that are agonizingly painful and those that become a drain on family and friends are the only legitimate excuses - certainly from my point of view.
So you're saying a mental illness can't be crippling? That because it is in the head it isn't painful? That someone in the depths of depression can't be seen as being a "drain" on others?
cleanbluesky
26-09-2008, 12:23
Nothing is. Which is my point.
There are charities out there that aid in financial situations, not these that you see on TV, but actual charities that do the same things for free such as CCCS, so financially I don't believe can be a reason to commit suicide, which, certainly for any healthy human being is the ultimate act of selfishness towards their friends and family - especially those who have children.
I maintain that crippling illnesses, ones that are agonizingly painful and those that become a drain on family and friends are the only legitimate excuses - certainly from my point of view.
So you say nothing is hopeless but also infer that painful and degenerative diseases could end in legitimate suicide...
Anyway, the 'charities' aren't going to pay your bills for you, and being in debt isn't a question of being depressed about debt until someone gives you a little attention then you're fine. It can quite easily be hopeless and whilst I agree that suicide is selfish I think that things can be hopeless and that the number of people who die penniless and isolated are testament to this
You're simplifying things Nokkon. You're assuming that a person is rational enough to know there is a solution. It's fair to say that anyone willing to jump in front of a train or hang themselves etc is NOT rational. Often people have family etc queueing up to help but they just dont see it as an option.
CBS, I'm talking about the kids who take half a dozen contraceptive pills every weekend after too many breezers because their boyfriend told them their bum DOES look big in that, and then before the last one has gone past their throat is onto the ambulance service. There are kids that do this week in week out. Im not saying they dont have a problem, but I dont have sympathy for them like I do a genuinely suicidal person.
cleanbluesky
26-09-2008, 12:33
So you're saying a mental illness can't be crippling? That because it is in the head it isn't painful? That someone in the depths of depression can't be seen as being a "drain" on others?
Someone in the depths of depression is no party, although I think thats how it works - like a test to see if the people around them value them enough to put the work in.
I'm talking in evolutionary terms here, I'm not saying depression is an act - although I've seen how depression can improve if a person is given the right attention
cleanbluesky
26-09-2008, 12:35
CBS, I'm talking about the kids who take half a dozen contraceptive pills every weekend after too many breezers because their boyfriend told them their bum DOES look big in that, and then before the last one has gone past their throat is onto the ambulance service. There are kids that do this week in week out. Im not saying they dont have a problem, but I dont have sympathy for them like I do a genuinely suicidal person.
That sounds a lot like a stereotype nor would I be surprised if that's something you've seen first hand through work
Pebs you used to work for the ambulances at one time didn't you?
Yes Vix, thats what I mean. It is a stereotype but they're all variations on a theme.
like a test to see if the people around them value them enough to put the work in.
Whilst I don't doubt that this could apply to some, if someone is really that depressed, I don't think they would be logical enough to "test" people
Someone in the depths of depression is no party, although I think thats how it works - like a test to see if the people around them value them enough to put the work in.
Depression....I have so many conflicting opinions on this, not all of them even remotely PC :( I think it's almost like suicide, there are those that have it and those that play at it. A good proportion of 'depressed' people need someone to give them a bloody good shake and tell them to get their sh*t together.
...certainly for any healthy human being is the ultimate act of selfishness towards their friends and family - especially those who have children.
I maintain that crippling illnesses, ones that are agonizingly painful and those that become a drain on family and friends are the only legitimate excuses - certainly from my point of view.
Anyone who is considering suicide surely is not at all healthy though are they? Not mentally anyway, although they may outwardly appear fine because often these are thing that people struggle with privately and don't talk about as far as i have seen. (I am of course talking about the seriously considering it, not those that do things like pebs' example.)
Amnyone who is considering it will more than likely have thought of their family I would imagine, and for them to go through with it, they must think that their family would be better off without them. If they felt they had someone to go to who cared, would they be considering it in the first place, as I imagine someone would have to feel very alone to be considering taking such a course of action.
And as others have said, in the example of depression, that can be a crippling illness too.
cleanbluesky
26-09-2008, 15:27
Whilst I don't doubt that this could apply to some, if someone is really that depressed, I don't think they would be logical enough to "test" people
I'm talking about evolution - if a person is depressed then their community might make effort to help them and they get better, if they're not worth anything to their community they top themselves... it would make evolutionary sense
I'm talking about evolution - if a person is depressed then their community might make effort to help them and they get better, if they're not worth anything to their community they top themselves... it would make evolutionary sense
Or if they contribute too much to society they feel that they cannot contribute any more and commit suicide.
Blighter
26-09-2008, 15:47
I feel that if you are really ill (i.e. on a life support machine/coma/whatever where you WONT get better), then yes, suicide might be more suitable then living.
Just think, would you rather your love ones go through a month of hell on a machine that's keeping them alive, or would you rather them have a peaceful death without any pain?
cleanbluesky
26-09-2008, 16:22
Or if they contribute too much to society they feel that they cannot contribute any more and commit suicide.
I can't think of a case where that has happened, surely Edison would have suicided if that were the case
cleanbluesky
26-09-2008, 16:23
Depression....I have so many conflicting opinions on this, not all of them even remotely PC :( I think it's almost like suicide, there are those that have it and those that play at it. A good proportion of 'depressed' people need someone to give them a bloody good shake and tell them to get their sh*t together.
I wonder about this sometimes. I think all depressives need to snap-out-of-it but question is how to make them...
I can't think of a case where that has happened, surely Edison would have suicided if that were the case
In general terms it was discovered when Durkheim conducted his study into social influences on suicide. The best way to describe it would be if you have everything at your disposal and felt you could no longer offer anything to society then you would be just as likeley to commit suicide as someone who was either destitute or without any money.
Durkheim argued that economic affluence, by stimulating human desires, carries with it dangers of anomic conditions because it "deceives us into believing that we depend on ourselves only," while "poverty protects against suicide because itis a restraint in itself." Since the realization of human desires depends upon the resources at hand, the poor are restrained, and henceless prone to suffer from anomie by virtue of the fact that they possess but limited resources. "The less one has the less he is tempted to extend the range of his needs indefinitely."
Article (http://www.hewett.norfolk.sch.uk/CURRIC/soc/durkheim/durkw2.htm)
I wonder about this sometimes. I think all depressives need to snap-out-of-it but question is how to make them...
I suppose that all depends on what is making them depressed in the first place?
The only time I have ever been truly depressed, (rather than just feeling a bit sorry for myself) was due to bereavement, and that I think is because I couldn't understand how anything would ever get better, as it wasn't a situation that was going to change - if someone has died they aren't coming back. At that time if anyone had told me that tings would have worked out ok in the end, I wouldn't have believed them, and really did think that I didn't want to live with the way things were, so it seemed like it was impossible for me to snap out of it.
NokkonWud
27-09-2008, 01:18
So you're saying a mental illness can't be crippling? That because it is in the head it isn't painful? That someone in the depths of depression can't be seen as being a "drain" on others?
A mental illness is a crippling illness.
NokkonWud
27-09-2008, 01:20
So you say nothing is hopeless but also infer that painful and degenerative diseases could end in legitimate suicide...
I said nothing is hopeless in terms of financial disaster. Something as damaging as a fatal illness isn't recoverable though is it.
NokkonWud
27-09-2008, 01:22
I feel that if you are really ill (i.e. on a life support machine/coma/whatever where you WONT get better), then yes, suicide might be more suitable then living.
Just think, would you rather your love ones go through a month of hell on a machine that's keeping them alive, or would you rather them have a peaceful death without any pain?
This is what I was getting at.
I think all depressives need to snap-out-of-it but question is how to make them...
I think the above statement shows how little you indeed know about people truly suffering with a manic mental condition.
A huge issue, touched on by Pebs, is the distinguishment of depressives and people feeling sorry for themselves/feeling a bit down etc; The latter of these, in a way, make a mockery of those who have real issues.
Dude!! I thought you were studying psychotherapy!! From what I have seen you're reactions to certain topics suggests you can have very black and white point of views and no middle ground... something which any psychologist would suggest is a fatal flaw! Maybe you're just trying to get a debate going, I'm unsure, but I indeed hope you are for the sake of potential clients you have in the future!
Much of what you have said is very one tracked with regards to depression - look at Olibubbles example - depression isn't always as easy as an attention seeking must-snap-out-of-it illness! What about SAD too? It's an biochemical imbalance - nothing to do with needing to snap-out-of-it! They just literally physically can't.
On the topic though, I think it's nigh-on impossible to generalise whether suicide/euthanasia is morally and ethically right. Personally, I would consider certain situations to be acceptable (such as those with terminal illnesses and who has wished for their life to be ended prematurely to stop their and their familes/friends prolonged suffering). But, this is just my opinion and to be frank, it would depend on the individual situation itself.
Personally, I could never ever commit suicide unless I only had a short time to live and was aware that my death would be slow and painful. Watching my Nanny die of cancer is an example where I would have asked to pull the plug. She actively didn't take drugs towards the end because she just wanted to pass on quicker due to the pain. There was nothing we can do and her last week in hospital she was incapacitated, couldn't do anything without being in pain (even though she was dosed to the high hills on morphine)... and it was horrendous for her and sadly for us too. From where she couldn't drink her tongue had dried out and ulcerated too - all she could do was blink at us.
So yeh... through severe terminal illness I would quite possibly turn to suicide. I don't think I could ever pop any pills/jump off a cliff though. In my eyes there are too many good people in this world who have lost their lives involuntarily and to me it seems unfair to take my own knowing these people would have given anything to live on.
cleanbluesky
27-09-2008, 10:24
I think the above statement shows how little you indeed know about people truly suffering with a manic mental condition.
It demonstrates how willing some are to accept the standard answers on depression, as many are, through lack of their own personal experience.
Dude!! I thought you were studying psychotherapy!! From what I have seen you're reactions to certain topics suggests you can have very black and white point of views and no middle ground... something which any psychologist would suggest is a fatal flaw! Maybe you're just trying to get a debate going, I'm unsure, but I indeed hope you are for the sake of potential clients you have in the future!
Hahaha, remind me to criticise your cards ;D
Much of what you have said is very one tracked with regards to depression - look at Olibubbles example - depression isn't always as easy as an attention seeking must-snap-out-of-it illness! What about SAD too? It's an biochemical imbalance - nothing to do with needing to snap-out-of-it! They just literally physically can't.
What you underestimate is how little 'experts' actually know about depression - the 'chemical imbalance' is often touted as if it explained anything but its far more complex than that and whilst it IS true that some psychologists do consider depression to be a chemical imbalance, and there is evidence that neurotransmitter uptake can influence depression, it is just one angle and by no means an authoritative explanation of depression. If the only way of treating depression were the chemical kosh then we'd be in trouble - at the moment antidepressants are a popular treatment for financial and political reasons but the government are moving away from that and I hope we will see more non-drug help for people in the future.
I don't think there is any one approach although 'snapping out of it' is often a good expression as a depressed person can change their mood without their circumstances changing - the right experience can change their mood a lot. Hence why I think suicide may be an evolutionary mechanism designed so that people whose communities wont rescue/help them will remove themselves from the gene pool - which is pretty bad considering how easy it is to get isolated in this big society of ours. Saying its a chemical imbalance may only be treating a symptom, and not the cause of depression. It is better possible to get better, but its a near mystery to exactly what works with any predictability.
You are the master of your own destiny.
That's a bit simplistic though isn't it ;)
We don't always have the control we think we will. I have a close family member who I thought was one of the strongest minded people I know. Something major happened in their life and they changed, very depressed, bed-ridden, had the strangest thoughts that other family members were against them. It was only with some family help and time that they pulled through it. But left to their own devices? Not sure what would have happened. It took some time but looking at them now you'd never have known.
Ultimately I believe your life, your choice.
However, so much depends on the individual case. There is a strong link with depression which has the power to distort a person's rationality and obliterate any hope for the future. Anyone who has viewed someone close to them go through this would disagree with these feelings and in a lot of cases so too would that person after/between bouts of depression.
Any justified decision to me would have to be a rational one that had been considered over time and after considering other options.
I have been trying to think of examples I could understand/justify and I think it they would relate to quality of life; your own e.g. a long-term medical condition, or your effect on the quality of life of those around you e.g. you were aware you had a personality disorder (psychopath, rapist, paedophile) that cannot be effectively treated or controlled.
What disturbs me with the second example above is the closeness to possible justifications for capital and other non-rehabilitative criminal punishments.
On the subject of depression one of the best written sources I have come across is a book called 'Depression and how to survive it' by Antony Clare (psychiatrist) and Spike Milligan (manic depressive). It is case specific but provides insight to both other sufferers themselves and to those close to them wishing to understand better.
Hahaha, remind me to criticise your cards ;D
Please do :) If I don't receive criticism I cannot improve my product and sales ethic :)
Stuff ( I did read it :D)
You're a funny man! You've just kind of proved my point! I agree with you fully about depression and that the human brain is so incredibly complex it's almost impossible to impose one solution to all and say "well this is a chemical imbalance" and "this is because they need this attention". And the whole anti depressants and what not being a political and funding thing - I should imagine it does have some form of influence indeedy. I personally hate them and think they're dished out too readily and are often a short term solution which often results in a long term problem (note are often - not always - I think the right people and circumstances they will suit the individual and provide a solution). It's always going to be individual but... do you agree that in *some* people their depression *may* in fact be caused by some kind of chemical imbalance of which they have little - or no control over what so ever? If you do agree with this statement then the general theory of depression being attention seeking and requiring people to "snap out of it" is.. well... redundant :)
Generalising when referring individual behavioral issues is ludicrous! And you should know that studying psychotherapy :)
As for the evolutionary theory... it's a good one but once again I think it fails to explain all. You just cannot generalise!! If you do it's a very narrow minded way of thinking!
In simplistic and most probably patronising terms it's like saying "all these eggs in this basket have one yolk". You may be right, but you'd only know if you cracked each one open individually to see.
cleanbluesky
29-09-2008, 10:19
It's always going to be individual but... do you agree that in *some* people their depression *may* in fact be caused by some kind of chemical imbalance of which they have little - or no control over what so ever? If you do agree with this statement then the general theory of depression being attention seeking and requiring people to "snap out of it" is.. well... redundant :)
I don't know, and I'd rather stick to that position until I find some evidence either way. There have been lots of 'depression from nowhere' diagnosis in the past and the latest 'chemical imbalance' idea is no different from the idea of endogenous depression or perhaps demonic posession.
What exactly is the value of a 'depression from nowhere' attitude, it often seems like an excuse to lock people away...
Generalising when referring individual behavioral issues is ludicrous! And you should know that studying psychotherapy :)
Shut it.
As for the evolutionary theory... it's a good one but once again I think it fails to explain all. You just cannot generalise!! If you do it's a very narrow minded way of thinking!
In simplistic and most probably patronising terms it's like saying "all these eggs in this basket have one yolk". You may be right, but you'd only know if you cracked each one open individually to see.
I think that the first thing you should do is generalise, and if that doesn't work then find an individual solution. I'm not gonna pretend that everything is vague and individual when it isn't, even if many would like to believe we are beautiful and unique snowflakes, WE AREN'T. There are simple solutions to a lot of cases (simple meaning obvious, rather than not requiring hard work) they should be tried first.
What alternatives are there to generalising? Walking around in a constant state of stupor without the desire to predict anything?
Generalising is good to an extent BUT it should be accepted there will be differences and not tar everyone with the same brush! It's quite simple!
I think you're just trying to be a pain in the bum CBS and cause more debates over not a lot :)
If you want to believe that people with depression can simply "snap out of it" and/or are only looking for attention and that there is no chance of some depression being physical AND chose to generalise and ignore other factors, you go right ahead mate :) Seems to be an incredibly narrow viewpoint!
If you want to believe that people with depression can simply "snap out of it" and/or are only looking for attention and that there is no chance of some depression being physical AND chose to generalise and ignore other factors, you go right ahead mate :) Seems to be an incredibly narrow viewpoint!
I agree with this.
I think though, that when people do just get over depression without any treatement, probably throught their circumstances changing, and things like their lifestyle, which might have been having a negative effect on their state of mind before, that people can sometimes see this as a thing of "oh see, you just needed to pull yourself together, there was nothing wrong with you at all".
That is just what i have seen though and is just my opinion :)
cleanbluesky
29-09-2008, 11:20
Generalising is good to an extent BUT it should be accepted there will be differences and not tar everyone with the same brush! It's quite simple!
Again, tar is rarely useful as a treatment for mental health.
The question is, how do you treat people who cant afford individual treatment. The NHS may be putting money into therapy but 6 sessions of CBT isn't much and I'm betting it will only be offered in support of standardised treatments.
I think you're just trying to be a pain in the bum CBS and cause more debates over not a lot :)
Acquiesce then.
If you want to believe that people with depression can simply "snap out of it" and/or are only looking for attention and that there is no chance of some depression being physical AND chose to generalise and ignore other factors, you go right ahead mate :) Seems to be an incredibly narrow viewpoint!
Snap out of it is a brilliant term to describe it, because that's what people do - slowly. Ask any ex depressive how they were cured, and they wont be able to tell you. The reason for this is its mostly unconcious, so finding whatever will make that unconcious change and 'snap out' of their depression can be useful.
You've now spent several posts picking me up on what is essentially, a turn of phrase.
cleanbluesky
29-09-2008, 11:22
"oh see, you just needed to pull yourself together, there was nothing wrong with you at all".
That is just what i have seen though and is just my opinion :)
I don't agree with 'pulling yourself together' because I don't think an individual can do it on their own - certainly not quickly.
I don't agree with 'pulling yourself together' because I don't think an individual can do it on their own - certainly not quickly.
you dont think someone can help themselves out of depression? :huh:
Slightly OT but relevant to any social subject in debate, I have just reminded myself of something my psychology professor used to frequently inform us students:
Each topic is like a statue in the middle of a room. Every theory/solution/bit of information you come across are like lights dotted around the room. If you look at one bit of information, it will only light up one part of the statue giving you a small abstract part to look at and leaving the bigger picture in the dark. The more information and guidance you take into consideration, more of the statue will be lit up.
Very rarely is the statue ever fully revealed as there are always some shadows lurking uncovered, but being as open minded as possible is the essence of being a good psychologist.
Very wise man.
cleanbluesky
29-09-2008, 11:28
you dont think someone can help themselves out of depression? :huh:
Not harsh 'clinical' depression, and isolation can often lead to depression. I think a change of circumstances can bring a lift from depression, although lots of depressed people lack the energy or strategy to change their circumstances.
Not harsh 'clinical' depression, and isolation can often lead to depression. I think a change of circumstances can bring a lift from depression, although lots of depressed people lack the energy or strategy to change their circumstances.
I think it is perfectly possible for even extremely depressed people to help themselves out of it, but i think it takes a lot of work, so is not a case of "snapping out of it" as such, but realising that if they dont do something, that nothing will ever get better.
chumpychops
29-09-2008, 11:49
Slightly OT but relevant to any social subject in debate, I have just reminded myself of something my psychology professor used to frequently inform us students:
Each topic is like a statue in the middle of a room. Every theory/solution/bit of information you come across are like lights dotted around the room. If you look at one bit of information, it will only light up one part of the statue giving you a small abstract part to look at and leaving the bigger picture in the dark. The more information and guidance you take into consideration, more of the statue will be lit up.
Very rarely is the statue ever fully revealed as there are always some shadows lurking uncovered, but being as open minded as possible is the essence of being a good psychologist.
Very wise man.
CBS thinks he has night vision goggles though....
Again, tar is rarely useful as a treatment for mental health.
The question is, how do you treat people who cant afford individual treatment. The NHS may be putting money into therapy but 6 sessions of CBT isn't much and I'm betting it will only be offered in support of standardised treatments.
Yes you're right, with regards to treatment, the only way to effectively treat a person is to categorise them using a number of medical tests (which will always have flaws) and then treat them according to that general category. Sadly this doesn't work with everyone but it's the best they can do.
Note... some people with SAD who have extremely happy lifestyle during the summery months but not so during winter occasions have been successfully treated with drugs, thus correcting their chemical imbalance meaning it was namely a physical problem they had little control over. I am sure some of these people may have had some kind of placebo affect to but I have no doubt that there are a large majority who have been "cured" through drugs alone.
Acquiesce then.
I with you or you with I? As said I agree without protest to a lot of what you are saying BUT am saying there's much more to it than what you insist on.
Snap out of it is a brilliant term to describe it, because that's what people do - slowly. Ask any ex depressive how they were cured, and they wont be able to tell you. The reason for this is its mostly unconcious, so finding whatever will make that unconcious change and 'snap out' of their depression can be useful.
You've now spent several posts picking me up on what is essentially, a turn of phrase.
You say "ask any ex depressive" as if you have asked them all and seem to know what everyones reaction will be. This, my friend, is very ignorant :) I doubt muchly you have had the opportunity to ask every ex depressive how they were cured and I am certain you are not omniscient (despite coming across that you feel you are!)
I think you may use what you study and have learned as biblical. You should be more open minded and accept that, although you know a lot, the knowledge you have is a drop in the ocean and needs to be combined with others to make any sensible usage and judgement! I'm still debating as to whether you are or whether you're just playing a game in this thread :)
CBS thinks he has night vision goggles though....
ROFFLECOPTERS!
cleanbluesky
29-09-2008, 13:33
Yes you're right, with regards to treatment, the only way to effectively treat a person is to categorise them using a number of medical tests (which will always have flaws) and then treat them according to that general category. Sadly this doesn't work with everyone but it's the best they can do.
I disagree. I think tests are often useless to the patient and they have been used as a way of medicine attempting to medicalise social care, and therefore acrue extra funding and authority. A mental health disorder is unlike most medical ones as it is generally diagnosed socially, whereby a person's behavior is measured against 'norms' rather than measuring the normal function of an organ. If psychiatrists have 'evidence' in the shape of made up medical questionnaires, then they can justify set treatments etc. etc.
Treatment for mental health problems should be almost entirely individual, and will therefore cost an enormous amount of money.
Note... some people with SAD who have extremely happy lifestyle during the summery months but not so during winter occasions have been successfully treated with drugs, thus correcting their chemical imbalance meaning it was namely a physical problem they had little control over. I am sure some of these people may have had some kind of placebo affect to but I have no doubt that there are a large majority who have been "cured" through drugs alone.
That's a vague claim with serious consequences - it also seems to skew slightly from your earlier comment about how you dislike drug therapy.
I with you or you with I? As said I agree without protest to a lot of what you are saying BUT am saying there's much more to it than what you insist on.
I'm not trying to simplfy and you'll also notice that I think we should withold judgement on a lot of things until there is more evidence.
You say "ask any ex depressive" as if you have asked them all and seem to know what everyones reaction will be. This, my friend, is very ignorant :) I doubt muchly you have had the opportunity to ask every ex depressive how they were cured and I am certain you are not omniscient (despite coming across that you feel you are!)
I've asked them all. I've also canvassed 9/10 cats.
I think you may use what you study and have learned as biblical. You should be more open minded and accept that, although you know a lot, the knowledge you have is a drop in the ocean and needs to be combined with others to make any sensible usage and judgement! I'm still debating as to whether you are or whether you're just playing a game in this thread :)
I think its a good idea to assume ignorance on mental health topics, simply because so many people claim answers when they do not have them. Hence why many of my comments have been questioning how it does work than actually stating anything.
Thanks for staying in this thread so long if you're in doubt. It's my charm isn't it...
ROFFLECOPTERS!
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