View Full Version : So sad
AboveTheSalt
06-10-2008, 20:50
This torn and twisted wreck below is all that remains of a family car after the fatal motorway collision with a Range Rover being driven by a professional footballer.
While the Toyota Previa driven by Philip Peak is barely recognisable as a car, the one driven by Plymouth Argle goalkeeper Luke McCormick appears more or less intact.
Mr Peak's sons Ben, aged eight, and Arron, ten, died in the crash. The 37-year-old remains seriously injured. (Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1025020/Pictured-The-professional-footballers-car-family-vehicle-collided--leaving-children-dead.html)Lives ended and lives ruined :'(
And, just so people understand why this was posted...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7654430.stm
Not really sure what to say. How do you decide what is a fair sentence for actions that have lead directly to the death of two children?
TinkerBell
06-10-2008, 21:51
My god, that is sooo sad :( Just makes you think what could happen, your whole life could fall apart when you least expect it.
Just awful :( There's no way those parents can ever recover from something like this. I wish when they put people in prison, the sentence length actually meant something.
Things like this make me so angry. I can't really say anything.
That CCTV footage is shocking.
When will they introduce a "breathaliser key" that won't start your car if you're over limit/been drinking. :(
if only things were that simple eh?
Von Smallhausen
07-10-2008, 14:33
A guilty plea before trial means the judge is obliged to give a reduced setnence.
Had he went not guilty and been convicted, the sentence would likely have been in double figures.
That CCTV footage is shocking.
When will they introduce a "breathaliser key" that won't start your car if you're over limit/been drinking. :(
if only things were that simple eh?
Such things exist, not in key form but still one that you have to blow into before your key will work. http://www.alcohol-breathalyzers.com/ALS21_article.asp
Just awful :( There's no way those parents can ever recover from something like this.
There's not much hope for the footballer recovering from it either. This will haunt him. So much so that it could be considered punishment in itself.
He made a mistake, he admitted it. We all make mistakes.
That CCTV footage is shocking.
When will they introduce a "breathaliser key" that won't start your car if you're over limit/been drinking. :(
if only things were that simple eh?
Easy to circumvent though, just get a sober mate to blow into it for you for example?
AboveTheSalt
07-10-2008, 17:11
Such things exist, not in key form but still one that you have to blow into before your key will work. http://www.alcohol-breathalyzers.com/ALS21_article.aspI would have thought that it should be possible to implement software that using the EMS & ABS could monitor activity through the brake, accelerator and steering; record a typical pattern for each journey; turn that into an average and compare it with the current driving pattern? This might also help to detect people falling asleep at the wheel.
Quite what such a system would do if it detected abnormal behaviour I'm not sure, perhaps sound the horn, flash the hazard warning lights and sound a loud buzzer inside the car :dunno:
Frankly, it is long past time that speed-limiters were fitted in all new cars; the guy was reported to be doing something like 90 mph :angry:
poor kids :(
did anyone catch that motorway police program on BBC1 yesterday?
at the end they were called to a pile up where a 44 ton truck had ploughed into stationary cars on the motorway , the first car was crushed like a tin can and thrown down and embankment, some how a 15 yr old boy survived and got out with only cuts and as he was being helped by someone then narrator or police officer said the boy was unaware that his mother and aunt who were also in the car had been killed instantly :(
Easy to circumvent though, just get a sober mate to blow into it for you for example?
Sure, but the advantage there is that drink driving would require two people to make such a judgement call. One who is sober (and should know better) and one who is drunk (and shouldn't have got so, knowing there was a chance they'd need to drive)
Frankly, it is long past time that speed-limiters were fitted in all new cars; the guy was reported to be doing something like 90 mph :angry:
A whole 90mph? I'm surprised there wasn't a veritable ocean of dead children piling up for miles behind him
A whole 90mph? I'm surprised there wasn't a veritable ocean of dead children piling up for miles behind him
I have to say I agree. The speed limits in this country are ridiculous. It's all relative to the situation and needs to be analysed at the time of the incident. I think the main contributing factor is that the driver was a tool, he was over the limit and driving beyond his capability owing to his state of mind. No doubt the speed added to the devastation in this case, but speed on it's own is not the main contributing factor in this instance. It's the driver's decision and he made that call to drive.
There's not much hope for the footballer recovering from it either. This will haunt him. So much so that it could be considered punishment in itself.
He made a mistake, he admitted it. We all make mistakes.
He was found to be twice the limit for alcohol consumption. Sorry, no sympathy for him whatsoever. There is absolutely zero excuse in my eyes for drink driving. No, I've never ever done it and no I never ever will, not even the morning after. I don't see how "everyone makes mistakes" can be given as an excuse when it comes to drink driving.
Oh I killed someone today. Oops. I just accidently pushed him down some stairs.... ah well, **** happens! I made a mistake!
Seriously, you've got to take responsibility for your actions, there was no mistake here. Drink driving is almost in my eyes murder - yes he'll feel awful, but I have no sympathy for him at all.
People don't realise that driving a car is a huge responsibility - you're driving over a tonnes worth of metal carrying a lot of momentum and a tremendous amount of energy - it's a weapon, it's lethal. No, it's entirely the drivers fault, and he made the conscious decision to drive. Yes maybe he made a bad choice, and he can regret it, but I have no sympathy for him at all.
I agree with you Kate 100% - I loathe drink drivers.
It's an incredibly stupid thing to do but I wouldn't place it tantamount to murder. There are a lot of people who do do it and have done for a long time and not killed anyone. It's not like drink driving is guaranteeing that you'll crash. From personal 'experience' i'd guess that the number of 'drink drivings' that end up in accidents is actually pretty low. It's not really something you can prove though without having some kind of record of every time someone has driven drunk and not had any kind of incident.
Murder is something done with a malicious intent, a desire to end someone's life on purpose, crashing into someone whilst being drunk, whilst still absolutely horrific, is not the same.
Not quite true really..
On average over 13,000 people are killed or seriously injured each year in drink drive collisions. Nearly one in six of all deaths on the road involve drivers who are over the legal alcohol limit. 1 in 6 is very very high for the amount of cars we have on the road. It's not a nominal amount at all.
Alcohol has a HUGE effect on your driving ability no matter how you think you "feel".
You're looking at the number of accidents that are attributed to drinking out of the number of total accidents, which is different to what I said.
I never disputed the effect it has on driving ability but I don't think DD can ever be tantamount to murder, at the most, manslaughter.
edit - having found what I guess is the same site as you did, as you seem to have almost copied the numbers verbatim, it also mentions that around 100,000 positive breath tests are done every year.
So if we take the 14,000 figure including minor injuries and say make that probably about 5,000 to 8,000 actual incidents to account for multiple occupancy cars etc, we can see that even then, around 8% of drink drivers end up in an accident. Add in to that all of the people who do it and don't get caught and breathalysed and added to those numbers and it would be even lower. So like I said, drink driving doesn't come close to virtually ensuring you're going to kill someone, so it is far from being tantamount to murder.
I don't condone it in anyway, but murder it is not, and so nor should it be treated as such.
Easily manslaughter in my eyes. You're over the limit and knowingly driving something with the potential to kill.
It's no different to getting drunk and fighting someone and killing them with a lucky punch or someone like me landing a punch.
Not quite pre-meditated in terms of wanting to kill, but very much premeditated in terms of knowingly doing it.
No the number I gave was the number SPECIFICALLY relating to deaths and sever injuries (i.e. brain damage, loss of limbs, paralysing etc...) The total amount of drink driving accidents are much bigger, and the proportion of overall accidents is taken up by a fair chunk by DD.
AboveTheSalt
07-10-2008, 18:19
Not quite true really..
On average over 13,000 people are killed or seriously injured each year in drink drive collisions. Nearly one in six of all deaths on the road involve drivers who are over the legal alcohol limit. 1 in 6 is very very high for the amount of cars we have on the road. It's not a nominal amount at all.
Alcohol has a HUGE effect on your driving ability no matter how you think you "feel".I believe that in the last year for which figures are available, excessive speed was considered to be a contributory factor in 25% of fatal crashes.
I was not aware that RoSPA consider the speed limits in this country to be ridiculous, perhaps you know differently?
Speed has a HUGE effect on the likelihood of death in a serious accident.
Easily manslaughter in my eyes. You're over the limit and knowingly driving something with the potential to kill.
It's no different to getting drunk and fighting someone and killing them with a lucky punch or someone like me landing a punch.
Not quite pre-meditated in terms of wanting to kill, but very much premeditated in terms of knowingly doing it.
No the number I gave was the number SPECIFICALLY relating to deaths and sever injuries (i.e. brain damage, loss of limbs, paralysing etc...) The total amount of drink driving accidents are much bigger, and the proportion of overall accidents is taken up by a fair chunk by DD.
See my edit, it may make what I was getting at clearer.
It's no different to getting drunk and fighting someone and killing them with a lucky punch or someone like me landing a punch.
I disagree. Swinging a punch while drunk, you wouldnt expect to kill anyone. Getting in a tonnes worth of car while drunk, you're lucky if you dont kill someone. There are no grey areas with drink driving in my eyes, you're a mobile high speed killer. The sooner drink drive rules clamp down to no alcohol in the system the better.
Oh I agree Pebs, I was just showing the contrast, but in both situations you're not expecting to kill someone but you have an increased chance of it in a car, despite still being able to do it whilst drunk. That was my point which you've reinforced and I completely agree with you.
I believe that in the last year for which figures are available, excessive speed was considered to be a contributory factor in 25% of fatal crashes.
I was not aware that RoSPA consider the speed limits in this country to be ridiculous, perhaps you know differently?
Speed has a HUGE effect on the likelihood of death in a serious accident.
Excessive speed is different to going over the speed limit. 60mph along a single carriage way is the speed limit, but in the rain, it may well be excessive speed or the conditions. Just like doing 100mph on the motorway at 2am, with good visibility and a well maintained car is far safer than doing 30mph in a built up area or around a school. It's all relative.
I'm an IAM and have advanced riding certificate (motorbike) and they never bleat on about the speed limit, the key is excessive speed.
Look at germany, their motorways are unrestricted, yet they have over 40% less accidents on the motorways than we do. The reason being is a) they have to slow down at junctions/merge points, b) they have to pull in after overtaking c) they get castigated for tailgating. They have very strict rules and people obey them.
People in the UK on the whole do not know how to drive, they drive to close, rubber neck, have poor lane discipline, are bad at anticipating and do not leave any margin for error. I'm no driving god, but I do know how to handle a car within my limits and do so, unfortunately it may (and probably does) exceed other people's limitations and as such do not drive like that all the time, only when it's safe to do so.
People here have no idea on the dangers or the responsibilities of owning a car.
Speed does not kill - it's the idiot behind the wheel that does.
I disagree. Swinging a punch while drunk, you wouldnt expect to kill anyone. Getting in a tonnes worth of car while drunk, you're lucky if you dont kill someone. There are no grey areas with drink driving in my eyes, you're a mobile high speed killer. The sooner drink drive rules clamp down to no alcohol in the system the better.
Fully agree with you. In the US they have an offence called "Vehicular manslaughter" that I'm inclined to believe they should have here. I would almost be inclined to make it murder for drink driving. Someone has gone out and drunk when they knew they were going to drive, or has made a concious decision to drive when they know they've drunk. Given the extent of media coverage and education on the subject, they've deliberately got behind tonnes of killing machine in an unfit state. That implies pre-meditation in my mind.
Speed does not kill - it's the idiot behind the wheel that does.
First principle of safe driving: Everyone else on the road is an absolute idiot. Treat them as such. :D
Something like that anyway.
It would be great if everyone was able to accurately perceive the correct and safe speed for the road under the conditions at that time, sadly very few seem to be able to. Saw a nicely smashed Porsche on Sunday that had skidded in the rain on the A23 at who knows what speed. Must have been going well over 70mph given the amount of damage done, in the pouring rain, on a road surface that showed signs of fuel on the surface. I highly doubt anyone in that car got out alive.
AboveTheSalt
07-10-2008, 21:42
...
I'm an IAM and have advanced riding certificate (motorbike) and they never bleat on about the speed limit, the key is excessive speed.
...
As a matter of interest, do "they" encourage you to break the law?
To be honest, I object strongly to people who drink and drive. I also object to people who speed, who tailgate and who have no concept of lane discipline. I believe that people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers that the speed limit doesn't apply to them are no better than people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers and drink so regularly that alcohol doesn't impair their ability.
No. But when overtaking you have to exceed the limit. They teach you to make safe progress, and by that it's utilising the ability of the car and the road visibility and surface the the best of their training.
I actively make the choice to break the speed limit. Whether it be by a little or double or triple - it's my call, but what makes me different is I take responsibility for my actions. Sometimes I even go underneath it!!!! :eek:
As a matter of interest, do "they" encourage you to break the law?
To be honest, I object strongly to people who drink and drive. I also object to people who speed, who tailgate and who have no concept of lane discipline. I believe that people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers that the speed limit doesn't apply to them are no better than people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers and drink so regularly that alcohol doesn't impair their ability.
Agreed. It doesnt matter how 'good' a driver you are, not everyone is and you can't second guess other people. People are so self obsessed they can't allow an extra few minutes for a safer legal journey.
No. But when overtaking you have to exceed the limit. They teach you to make safe progress, and by that it's utilising the ability of the car and the road visibility and surface the the best of their training.
I actively make the choice to break the speed limit. Whether it be by a little or double or triple - it's my call. Sometimes I even go underneath it!!!! :eek:
Why do you need to overtake if they're travelling at the speed limit?
OK, Im not going to preach, I speed and I have the points to prove it, but TRIPLE the speed limit? Thats just insanely irresponsible.
Why do you need to overtake if they're travelling at the speed limit?
What if they're not?
What if they're doing 50 in a 60? Annoying slower than the limit but going past at 60 would leave you on the opposite side of the road for a needlessly extended period of time, whereas you are far safer minimising your time on the opposite side by overtaking at say 80 instead.
Sure, my comment was daft. Ignore that line :)
IT's all about TED (time exposed to danger) being at a minimum, i.e. overtake as quickly as possible so you're not on the wrong side of the road.
I was on my private track at the time ;) And yes I'm irresponsible, but I jumped out of planes and rockclimbed with no safety line... so sue me ;) :p
Your post talks about speed limits and driving at triple the speed limit. Best case scenario is 90mph in a 30 zone. I've ive got the wrong end of the stick I apologise but I didnt thing tracks had speed limits.
I was being a little facetious, I'm sorry. I'd never do 90 in a 30 ever. Not even the police would get away with it. Triple figures on the motorway I won't rule out though.
Why is 100mph necessarily 'insane' on what may well be a virtually empty, mostly straight road, in a well looked after car?
Quite right divine. And additionally, why is it always assumed that the driver who is driving at greater than 70mph is at fault? I was driving home from Bristol the other night down the M4, it was clear as a bell and drier than the Sahara. I did 90/100 the entire way without any problems whatsoever, until a blind, mute failed medical experiment in a Citroen who was sat in the middle lane decided to bang an indicator on and pull out at the last minute. Say I hit him, and I walked away whilst him and his two kids died. Who wants to bet money that I would be vilified in the press, when in fact the accident only occurred because of an error made by someone who shouldn't be on the road at all?
People's attitude to speed on the road is often black and white, when I don't believe it is that simple.
Edit: I can also sympathise with the young lad who is facing a 7 year stretch in prison here. He made a stupid mistake, one that has destroyed people's lives. He isn't a murderer though IMHO.
Look at germany, their motorways are unrestricted, yet they have over 40% less accidents on the motorways than we do. The reason being is a) they have to slow down at junctions/merge points, b) they have to pull in after overtaking c) they get castigated for tailgating. They have very strict rules and people obey them.
People in the UK on the whole do not know how to drive, they drive to close, rubber neck, have poor lane discipline, are bad at anticipating and do not leave any margin for error. I'm no driving god, but I do know how to handle a car within my limits and do so, unfortunately it may (and probably does) exceed other people's limitations and as such do not drive like that all the time, only when it's safe to do so.
People here have no idea on the dangers or the responsibilities of owning a car.
Speed does not kill - it's the idiot behind the wheel that does.
Could not agree more with any of this if I tried.
Psymonkee
08-10-2008, 02:34
Why do you need to overtake if they're travelling at the speed limit?
OK, Im not going to preach, I speed and I have the points to prove it, but TRIPLE the speed limit? Thats just insanely irresponsible.
Because they are in all likelyhood plain scaring me.
If someone is travelling at or below the speed limit and wandering around their lane or pointing at random things at the side of the road (not paying attention to the job at hand) then as far as I'm concerned their fair game.
As for speeding? It's kinda fun :D Also I feel when I'm traveling at speed I actually concentrate more on the road and the potential hazards. Noticeable on the motorways especially. If I sit in traffic I get bored and get lazy. If I 'speed' I make progress and keep my mind active.
(I also pray I reach the next petrol station after the fuel light comes on :p)
Why is 100mph necessarily 'insane' on what may well be a virtually empty, mostly straight road, in a well looked after car?
Show me someone competent of making such an informed decision and I'll show you 30 or 40 who aren't. They're the ones that cause the speed limits to exist :(
Show me someone competent of making such an informed decision and I'll show you 30 or 40 who aren't. They're the ones that cause the speed limits to exist :(
Me. And I'm sure a few others on here are competent.
Never mind.
CBS, is that you in there!?!?!!?!?!
It is different. Drinking affects your ability and impares judgement, even at low speeds. Sober one wouldn't necessarily speed in town or around schools or built up areas, however drunk no matter what speed you're doing, ploughing into someone is a lot more likely. Again, sober you would make a judgement call to go for a blast on an empty country road. Yes you may get it wrong, and yes you may have a blow out, and you might even win the lottery, but you'd be in a better condition for correcting it and taking a better and speedier instinctive reaction to the problem than if you were over the limit.
Ultimately, your reactions and your ability to control a vehicle whether above or at or nbelow the speed limit under the infulence of drugs or alcohol is hugely affected. Driving over the speed limit, whilst still illegal, holds more discretion (fortunately for me, as I have been pulled a few times (still no points or crashes to this date)) as you driving can be evaluated and if deemed in control and with good observation you may get away with a telling off, or just 3 points and small fine which is acceptable. Driving like a tool in conditions that are not suitable I agree is just as stupid as staring down the barrel of a loaded gun about to fire.
I don't think we'll agree on this - but whilst I don't purposely go over the speed limit in town or at times, and if I ever do make the conscious decision of daring to cruise at 85 on the motorway I can assure you that if I were the people driving around me, I'd rather be around me than someone that has drunk too much and I reckon 9/10 people would too, except for you maybe :p
I'm not saying I'm a driving god, I've been in hairy/sticky situations a few times, but I know how to handle a car - ok no where near like Colin McRae (RIP) but probably better than the average road user - I make my decisions as an adult, just as I make the decision to jump out of plane with a hangover. I'm confident in my ability to land and do all my drill for opening my chute, as I am ensuring my car is in good condition and know how to use it.
Sure you probably think I'm being ignorant and arrogant... but meh, we just have different attitudes to driving.
Me. And I'm sure a few others on here are competent.
I think you missed my point entirely. "Show me someone competent of making such an informed decision and I'll show you 30 or 40 who aren't"
I'm not questioning whether you are competent yourself, just making the point that a good majority of drivers on the road are categorically not capable of judging a safe speed if left to their own judgement.
I'd say you're more likely to have a better feel for judging the road than I do, given your experience of riding motorbikes in all conditions, for example. Most people that have ridden motorbikes will be better than those drivers that haven't; however like with cars, there are riders and there are riders :)
Sorry :o Very tired and feeling a bit grrrrr at hte moment.
I get you now - and yes I agree.
I believe you all know my point of view on DUI/DWI. :angry:
And in my situation speed had zero influence. Both speedometers showed the speed limit (both crushed due to impact and frozen in place).
It was solely because some ******* got behind the wheel (I'm trying to be nice here and not verbally castrate everyone who drinks) after drinking too much (*cough* at all *cough*). If the stupid ****er had either taken a cab or walked, it's mind boggling how different several peoples' lives would be today, mine being one of them.
Bah, I better stop now. I can feel my blood pressure going sky high just talking about it.
Errr... wha?
P.s. What has drinking got to do with drink driving..?
P.s. What has drinking got to do with drink driving..?
That's possibly not the best worded post you've ever made :p
That's possibly not the best worded post you've ever made :p
Yeh I thought that afterwards. My point is that Darrin came across as though he was flat out criticising drinking, which is a whole different discussion to the one at hand. Given he says he lives in Mormon County, it sort of made sense in a round about way in my head.
Pyle, it may help to understand if you remembered me as Mickey_D from OcUK. If you don't, I had my fiance' at 18 years of age killed by a drunk driver. I was the first EMT on scene and was the one to put her in a body bag.
So I'm a little biased towards drunk drivers. I have a distinct loathing for them in fact. They tend to bring out a quite violent side of me that doesn't think too clearly about the consequences of me beating the **** out of them...
The whole part about drinking at all was in reference to if you're getting anywhere near driving a car. I have no problem with people drinking. I've done my fair share. It would be hypocritical of me to have a problem with it. But when you combine it with driving a car is when I have a coronary.
Snippage
Ah, I've never been an OcUK poster so I wasn't sure what the history was. I agree with your sentiments entirely, and can only say how tragic it is that your life was affected by drink driving. I am certainly not here to validate drink driving, although having not been through what you have my opinion on how the footballer in the OP should be dealt with is probably very different.
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