Distance Selling Regulations

divine · 07-12-2008, 18:13

I'm really looking for clarification on how these can be used.

Basically, guy on a tech forum bought an incompatible CPU and motherboard, which he only realised after he had installed (it was a S775 but with a chipset that doesn't support 45nm chips at all) and the advice given was to send one or the other back under the DSR.

Now, he got the return processed with eBuyer without a fuss, though obviously this could just be them being helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFT

Can I insist that consumers who cancel an order within the cancellation period return the goods as new or in their original packaging?
3.58 No. Consumers are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods while in their possession as discussed in paragraph 3.44. The DSRs allow consumers to examine goods they have ordered as they wouldin a shop. If that requires opening the packaging and trying out the goods then they have not breached their duty to take reasonable care of the goods. In these circumstances you cannot insist that consumers return the goods as new or in their original packaging. You may ask consumers to return goods with the original packaging, but you cannot insist on this. In the case of goods such as earrings that have hygiene seals, you may require consumers to exercise reasonable care by not removing the seals when examining them.

Now, some people were saying that as long as the 'reasonable care' clause was met, all was well and if needed you could fight a company all the way to force them to take a return under the DSR.

I disagreed as I feel opening and using a motherboard and CPU, goes beyond the 'as they would in a shop' clause, being that you cant go into PC World for example and start using the components before deciding whether to buy them.

Who would be right?

Mark · 07-12-2008, 19:55

You can't go into a PC World and start opening boxes containing PC components either, or if you do, you can expect short shrift and a demand to buy the goods or leave, or both, so your example is somewhat flawed.

As with so much else in UK law, if a court case were to happen it would probably come down to a case of what was reasonable. If the list of compatibilities was clearly stated (packaging, documentation), then it probably wouldn't be considered reasonable if you ploughed straight in without reading that information first. They don't provide that information just to make the box look pretty.

PS - Mondo is probably the best person here to give you an accurate reply on what the law actually says.

divine · 07-12-2008, 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

You can't go into a PC World and start opening boxes containing PC components either, or if you do, you can expect short shrift and a demand to buy the goods or leave, or both, so your example is somewhat flawed.

That was exactly my point, surely if the DSR are supposed to allow the same chance for inspection as you get in a shop, having opened the box and tried to use the items they would no longer apply, as you couldn't reasonably expect to be able to do that in a shop? I fail to see what the flaw is

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

As with so much else in UK law, if a court case were to happen it would probably come down to a case of what was reasonable. If the list of compatibilities was clearly stated (packaging, documentation), then it probably wouldn't be considered reasonable if you ploughed straight in without reading that information first. They don't provide that information just to make the box look pretty.

As for the listed compatibilities, the items in specific are:
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/121201
and
http://www.ebuyer.com/product/148715
Problem being the above chipset doesn't support 45nm chips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

PS - Mondo is probably the best person here to give you an accurate reply on what the law actually says.

Indeed, I was hoping he might be able to offer an opinion on the matter at some point

Mark · 08-12-2008, 00:15

Having read the relevant text, I can see no reason why the DSR would not apply. The only case I can see would be claiming that the purchaser has not taken reasonable care of the item by assembling it (see clause 3.65 of your OFT document).

Remember that DSR gives you more rights than you would have in a shop, so the clause you picked up on originally about what you could do in a shop is rather misleading.

Arguing the case with eBuyer could be interesting. To me their terms violate DSR, but I'm not a lawyer.

Mondo · 08-12-2008, 00:44

The basic principle one should take is as if you are in a shop in person, and you ask the assistant look at a product. Imagine you are there and opening it and inspect it, it would be reasonable to open say a keyboard to test how it feel to type, as with opening a coffee machine to check all the parts are in there, or a digital camera, to take a few shots to test the shutter. The reasonablity (is that a word ?) would be different for different product, as you are not going to open a game or a CD.

So take the same principle as you are at home, you are basically "inspecting" a product. That is to say opening it and checking (cosmetically in most cases), but in reality, for most products the retailer cannot be certain you have gone beyond inspecting to testing, such as testing like plugging it in, as long as there are no physical evidence that it has been used most retailer will honor the return in practice.

For the Motherboard in question, installing it into a PC would be beyond the Long Distance selling regulation as that is not inspection. Opening it and checking if there are no loose capacitor would be reasonable, but putting it in your pc and realising it doesn't work isn't. The simple test would be that if you can't test it in the shop, you are not really supposed to do it at home. If you were to buy an item in a shop and found that it is incompatible then you are screwed as the principles of Cavert Emptor - buyer beware means that it is down to the buyer to make sure what you are buying is correct and for your needs. if you made a mistake on your purchase decision the shop has no obligation to refund or exchange. Under the LDS the buyer basically can say they have changed their mind, just like in a shop as if they had inspected a product and didn't like it so handed it back.

Mark · 08-12-2008, 00:54

Thanks Mondo. Goes back to how I felt originally then before I was blinded by OFT verbiage. No surprise there then.

Mondo · 08-12-2008, 01:00

I haven't studied the LDS in detail but the above would be my view on the subject in question

Beansprout · 08-12-2008, 02:15

I'd say the DSR wouldn't really apply as in the shop you can't fully test it to see if they work - you should have done your research / checked beforehand. However, in a shop you could also ask an assistant but then online, you could call and ask.

Seems like buying a lightbulb but not looking at the lamp first to see if it works - not the shop's fault, but most would let you exchange it.

Just my thoughts

divine · 08-12-2008, 02:30

Indeed, eBuyer have let him exchange the CPU for a model that will work with no hassle, though I suspect more out of their own goodwill than any obligation under the DSR.

08-12-2008, 00:44	#5
Mondo Absinthe Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,174	The basic principle one should take is as if you are in a shop in person, and you ask the assistant look at a product. Imagine you are there and opening it and inspect it, it would be reasonable to open say a keyboard to test how it feel to type, as with opening a coffee machine to check all the parts are in there, or a digital camera, to take a few shots to test the shutter. The reasonablity (is that a word ?) would be different for different product, as you are not going to open a game or a CD. So take the same principle as you are at home, you are basically "inspecting" a product. That is to say opening it and checking (cosmetically in most cases), but in reality, for most products the retailer cannot be certain you have gone beyond inspecting to testing, such as testing like plugging it in, as long as there are no physical evidence that it has been used most retailer will honor the return in practice. For the Motherboard in question, installing it into a PC would be beyond the Long Distance selling regulation as that is not inspection. Opening it and checking if there are no loose capacitor would be reasonable, but putting it in your pc and realising it doesn't work isn't. The simple test would be that if you can't test it in the shop, you are not really supposed to do it at home. If you were to buy an item in a shop and found that it is incompatible then you are screwed as the principles of Cavert Emptor - buyer beware means that it is down to the buyer to make sure what you are buying is correct and for your needs. if you made a mistake on your purchase decision the shop has no obligation to refund or exchange. Under the LDS the buyer basically can say they have changed their mind, just like in a shop as if they had inspected a product and didn't like it so handed it back. __________________ My Website / MSN / Email / Flickr / Blog Last edited by Mondo; 08-12-2008 at 00:59.

08-12-2008, 01:00	#7
Mondo Absinthe Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,174	I haven't studied the LDS in detail but the above would be my view on the subject in question __________________ My Website / MSN / Email / Flickr / Blog

08-12-2008, 02:15	#8
Beansprout Long Island Iced Tea Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 488	I'd say the DSR wouldn't really apply as in the shop you can't fully test it to see if they work - you should have done your research / checked beforehand. However, in a shop you could also ask an assistant but then online, you could call and ask. Seems like buying a lightbulb but not looking at the lamp first to see if it works - not the shop's fault, but most would let you exchange it. Just my thoughts __________________ Uploader Cartoons World Wind

08-12-2008, 02:30	#9
divine Moonshine Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Southampton Posts: 3,201	Indeed, eBuyer have let him exchange the CPU for a model that will work with no hassle, though I suspect more out of their own goodwill than any obligation under the DSR. __________________

07-12-2008, 19:55	#2
Mark Screaming Orgasm Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newbury Posts: 15,194	You can't go into a PC World and start opening boxes containing PC components either, or if you do, you can expect short shrift and a demand to buy the goods or leave, or both, so your example is somewhat flawed. As with so much else in UK law, if a court case were to happen it would probably come down to a case of what was reasonable. If the list of compatibilities was clearly stated (packaging, documentation), then it probably wouldn't be considered reasonable if you ploughed straight in without reading that information first. They don't provide that information just to make the box look pretty. PS - Mondo is probably the best person here to give you an accurate reply on what the law actually says.

08-12-2008, 00:15	#4
Mark Screaming Orgasm Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newbury Posts: 15,194	Having read the relevant text, I can see no reason why the DSR would not apply. The only case I can see would be claiming that the purchaser has not taken reasonable care of the item by assembling it (see clause 3.65 of your OFT document). Remember that DSR gives you more rights than you would have in a shop, so the clause you picked up on originally about what you could do in a shop is rather misleading. Arguing the case with eBuyer could be interesting. To me their terms violate DSR, but I'm not a lawyer.

08-12-2008, 00:54	#6
Mark Screaming Orgasm Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newbury Posts: 15,194	Thanks Mondo. Goes back to how I felt originally then before I was blinded by OFT verbiage. No surprise there then.