Your faith...

[Lana]

Originally Posted by Slinwagh

I do not see any evidence for God or Jesus. Take the virgin birth, at the absolute base level you need sperm to fertilise the egg, thus rendering the virgin birth impossible, there was no IVF etc back then. i would assume I am not to take the virgin birth literally, if that is the case does this not stand for the rest of the bible to?

The way I understand the Virgin Birth is that it was a miracle...the same as with blind people being able to see or dead people coming back to life again. It doesn't make sense on a cognitive level but it happened.

Having been part of a missionary program in the past, I have heard of a lot of miracles from people I completely trust. I don't think they were metaphorical!

I read some books that were actually really helpful to me when I was looking for some answers. You may have heard of them... "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for Faith." I thought they were really cool because they started off from the basics of the Bible and answer questions everyone has (how do I know this is true? Couldn't some random person have made it up? etc).

My belief is that if anyone goes searching for the truth and really has an open mind they will find it.

[Lana]

Originally Posted by Pheebs

I really... don't feel I can put that down entirely to some scientific explanation at all. *something* must of been there with me. I don't know what or who or anything but something.

Pheebs that sounds so scary!

Sometimes I will suddenly think of someone I haven't spoken to in a little while and give them a call, to find out that they are having a really hard time and need someone to talk to.

I have one friend who says she can see demons and I called her one night when she said they were all dancing around her. (I have NEVER seen anything and I am glad. I think God knows what we can and can't handle, and I could NOT handle that!) It was random timing because I was tired and it was actually too late to call her but I had this really strong urge to.

So I have had weird things happen too! We totally live in a spiritual world.

[Lana]

Originally Posted by semi-pro waster

On a basic level I'm happy for anyone to believe in anything provided the aren't affecting others with it but once they do then I've got issues with it. I'm also not keen on people who preach at me, if they want to tell me about the majesty of Christ then that is fine but once I ask them to stop that is their cue to hush up, I don't want to dissuade anyone from their beliefs (even assuming I could) but if they do not respect mine I will not respect theirs - basic courtesy here.

I think a lot of times people don't know the limit. People feel like they have a message and they will shout it from the rooftops without stopping to think that it just makes them look wacky.

I saw this guy once who was preaching hellfire and damnation at the prostitutes in Waikiki, and I really wanted to stop and ask him who he thought he was helping. I don't know about anyone else, but if my first impression of a religion was that I am being judged, I don't think I would think that was something I wanted to take part in!

(Sorry I keep replying...I love this conversation :-P)

[loki]

The issue of faith has always been intriguing to me and I really do admire people like Garp who have some faith and religion in their life. From my experience, some people who say they are agnostic or atheist do so because thats the way popular culture influences them to be without having the understanding of what this actually means. Not to suggest that any BD'ers are like that.

From my point of view I was brought up as a Christian attending Sunday School and having religion and patriotism (Queen & Country) imposed on me through the cub's and scouts. But something just didn't connect with me. I could never understand why people would appear to blindly follow someone or something they had never seen. All the good things passed off as gods will. All the bad things passed off as gods punishment for your sins that you may or may not be aware of. Through my teenage years I rebelled against religion and dabled in the occult to rationalise my understanding.

A few years ago I felt my life was missing something from a faith point of view. I knew I wasn't comfortable with the conventions of christianity and other organised religions by the same token I did need some moral or ethical compass to be my guide.

So for the past few years I have found Buddhism and it has enriched my life. Maybe it was a long journey to accept that I am responsible for my actions, that I can have a positive or negative impact on the people, community and world around me, that anything is possible given the right frame of mind. We know this was a real person and there is something less mystic about his teachings. It fits better with me and I feel I am a better person for having some faith in my life not necessarily religion.

As for the debate on the existence of god and a higher omniscient being who is all knowing and all seeing. Well I am not convinced. What I have a question mark over is the whole creationism debate. Is it just pure fluke or chance that this ball of dust and dirt is in exactly the right place at the right time, at the right distance from the sun with the exact ammount of nutrients, oxygen, carbon and nitrogen to support no only life but evolutionary life ???

There are so many variables that have to be right to ensure life on this planet. A very small percentage either way would mean the planet being vastly different and life would not exist. Is that just down to where we are or where we were 65M years ago so does this support the argument for divine intervention.

[Chuckles]

Originally Posted by Lana

My belief is that if anyone goes searching for the truth and really has an open mind they will find it.

That's crazy though. Virtually everyone who is religious is so for one of the following reasons

1) Their have to knocked into them by their parents or peers from a young age
2) They have experienced a traumatic event and are vunerable
3) They get brainwashed

If it were possible to remove all external influences from a persons life and present them with the scientific evidence for evolution or the dogma of creationism, I don't think anyone who is "Open Mindded" as you say would opt for creationism as a credible theory.

If you look at people who follow specific religions, it is always due to their environment. For example, people born into a tradition Pakistan family are likely to be Muslim, and people born into a traditional Christian western family will be Christian.

All organised religions have got it right when they say that all the others have got it wrong. All they need to do is take that last tiny step and realise that theirs is just as ridiculous as the rest.

[semi-pro waster]

Originally Posted by Chuckles

All organised religions have got it right when they say that all the others have got it wrong. All they need to do is take that last tiny step and realise that theirs is just as ridiculous as the rest.

So could I take it you believe in Stephen F. Roberts' oft repeated quote "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours."?

Which is all lovely but your position relies on the faith of probability and that is not any more certain to be correct than the blind faith of an adherant. The likelihood is good that all (or most) religions are (at least partially) wrong but that is all it is, you can neither prove nor disprove the basic idea of a deity so to take a firm position on it requires faith.

Lana: Indeed, the problem is getting people to realise why their position is not absolute truth* and should not necessarily override what other people believe. I direct that to believers in religion and atheists alike, both sides can be spectacularly unforgiving when it comes to what other people want to believe in. Accept the belief that you have for what it is (faith) and there is nothing whatsoever wrong in having faith but remember that your faith is not better than anyone elses so allow them to believe as you would wish to be given the right to believe yourself. Faith should not be used to oppress or castigate, it should be between you and your god or lack of god if that is the case.

*If there is any such thing as absolute truth to begin with, your truth may not be mine because we start from different places and have different experiences to shape our viewpoints.

[Chuckles]

Originally Posted by semi-pro waster

Which is all lovely but your position relies on the faith of probability and that is not any more certain to be correct than the blind faith of an adherant. The likelihood is good that all (or most) religions are (at least partially) wrong but that is all it is, you can neither prove nor disprove the basic idea of a deity so to take a firm position on it requires faith.

That's a logical fallacy. "All cats have 4 legs. My dog has 4 legs, therefore my cat is a dog."

It is poor logic to make an assumption on the basis that you cannot disprove another assumption.

Can you prove that a giant spaghetti didn't create life as we know it?

I'd rather put my "Faith" in a theory backed up by science and evidence than one with none.

[semi-pro waster]

Originally Posted by Chuckles

That's a logical fallacy. "All cats have 4 legs. My dog has 4 legs, therefore my cat is a dog."

It is poor logic to make an assumption on the basis that you cannot disprove another assumption.

Can you prove that a giant spaghetti didn't create life as we know it?

I'd rather put my "Faith" in a theory backed up by science and evidence than one with none.

Come again? That's not even close to the proposition here, you're dismissing all religion on the basis that you think they it is a crock - fine, that is your prerogative but to say that it is logically supported to do so is a nonsense. You have, in effect, said I don't believe any religion I've ever heard of (and I'll credit you with having heard of all possible religions here if it makes the slightest bit of difference and having an in depth understanding of all of them) which means there can be no god - it means no such thing. All it means is that you don't believe in any of them, not that they cannot possibly be true. If we are talking likelihoods then sure, I'd probably agree with you, I've not yet heard of a religion that makes me think it is likely to be correct but I don't know enough to dismiss them all so I'll sit on the fence for this one. If you want to take a position and dismiss them all then be my guest, you are welcome to do so but at least accept that you are dismissing them as a matter of faith because the only logical position here is that we don't know - there is nothing wrong with having faith and I'm not sure why so many atheists fight shy of admitting it but perhaps the idea of owning up to not being in the logically supported position is somehow not kosher.

I can't disprove the FSM but I don't need to or care to, apathetic agnostic and all that - I've got my distinct suspicions that it was all invented by Bobby Henderson given that he was the creator of Pastafarianism but it really doesn't matter to me either way.

You've also apparantly taken the view that evolution and religion are mutually exclusive which is not necessarily the case, (many forms of) religion (but not all, including some literal interpretations of Christianity) can accomodate evolution and evolution doesn't really give a rats for the existence of religion provided the theory holds true in a predictively accurate sense.

[Chuckles]

Originally Posted by semi-pro waster

Come again? That's not even close to the proposition here, you're dismissing all religion on the basis that you think they it is a crock - fine, that is your prerogative but to say that it is logically supported to do so is a nonsense. You have, in effect, said I don't believe any religion I've ever heard of (and I'll credit you with having heard of all possible religions here if it makes the slightest bit of difference and having an in depth understanding of all of them) which means there can be no god - it means no such thing.

I'm not saying that. I'm agreeing with you that it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God.

What I'm saying is that because you cannot disprove that should not give any credence to that idea that there is a God.

[Slinwagh]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ids-worse.html

Here is one of the Popes latest little gems.

Aids, he said, "is a tragedy that cannot be overcome by money alone, and that cannot be overcome through the distribution of condoms, which even aggravates the problems".

For me this just highlight how out of touch modern religion is. The worst thing is millions of people listen to this man.