Scientology

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Del Lardo

Whenever there has been a serious charge against a religion or church the first thing they do is deny everything and try and claim to be "whiter than white". Look at how the Catholic church handled years of child abuse accusations. Just because the person denying the claims is famous doesn't make the religion any worse IMO.

With the exception that in this case it's those who instigated the religion and 'wrote the rules' making the denials (see comment about heretics). I'm not going to deny that atrocities happened or still happen in other religions but can you pin that on the origins of the religion or on misguided acts by its followers?

OK, so I admit I'm a little biased, and probably fallen for some of the hype, but still.

[Del Lardo]

Originally Posted by Mark

With the exception that in this case it's those who instigated the religion and 'wrote the rules' making the denials (see comment about heretics). I'm not going to deny that atrocities happened or still happen in other religions but can you pin that on the origins of the religion or on misguided acts by its followers?

You make a very good point. I agree that the people making the rules doing these things is worse than misguided acts but I can't help but look back at the last 2000 years of human history and see what damage has been done by these misguided acts.

IIRC you are a Christian and as such we will have very different views on this subject but I am really enjoying discussing the subject with you. I was brought up as a Christian and my mothers side of the family is very religious so I can see the positives of religion but I really struggle to offset them against what I percieve to be the negative side.

[Dymetrie]

Originally Posted by Mark

can you pin that on the origins of the religion or on misguided acts by its followers?

In my opinion then this is the most important point about all religions.

Is it the word or the teaching which is at fault?

[Mark]

Here's just one example of what's wrong. Of course it's only one report and I'm sure there are others that might express a different opinion, but there you go...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sit...%2Bscientology

Video is low quality but there's also a transcript and various articles, criticisms, etc.

Originally Posted by Del Lardo

IIRC you are a Christian and as such we will have very different views on this subject but I am really enjoying discussing the subject with you. I was brought up as a Christian and my mothers side of the family is very religious so I can see the positives of religion but I really struggle to offset them against what I percieve to be the negative side.

I should point out that I do not see myself as particularly religious. I do go to church very occasionally though (a few times a year up to last year but aiming for once a month now) so I guess that makes me more religious than some. And yes, it's a C of E church.

[Del Lardo]

Originally Posted by Mark

Here's just one example of what's wrong. Of course it's only one report and I'm sure there are others that might express a different opinion, but there you go...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sit...%2Bscientology

Video is low quality but there's also a transcript and various articles, criticisms, etc.


I should point out that I do not see myself as particularly religious. I do go to church very occasionally though (a few times a year up to last year but aiming for once a month now) so I guess that makes me more religious than some. And yes, it's a C of E church.

I have no doubt that the Scientologist do some completely messed up stuff that is in no way acceptable but I can't help but looking at what other major religions have done in the last 2000 years and think that a bit of harrasment is a lot better than genocide. Now maybe I'm being very unfair and judging them on what they have done rather than what they are doing now but as far as I am concerned religion is to blame for a lot of the VERY bad things that are going on in the world at the moment.

There are also situations from my life that make it very hard for me to ever accept organised religion despite my mothers best attempts to make me a Christian. Infact thinking about it I suspect that my mothers attempts to make me a Christian could be behind my dislike or organised religion as around aged 8 I decided I didn't believe a word of it yet she forced me to go to Church every Sunday until I turned 16 at which point she gave me a choice. To this day I'm astounded that she though I'd say "yes please" as I'd spent the previous 8 years trying to avoid the place.*


Anyways..... interesting to hear that you don't consider yourself particulary religious yet you still go to Church and would like to go more this year. What makes you want to go and what to you get from the experience?

Originally Posted by BBC

L Ron wrote that 75 million years ago an intergalactic space alien lord called Xenu kidnapped Thetans to earth, dumped them in volcanoes and blew them up with atomic bombs

Bringing back some classic South Park moments. IIRC the episode ended with Stan/Kyle shouting "sue me, go on I dare you, sue me"








*having just re-read this paragraph it makes my mother sound like some evil religious bat which she isn't. Despite my genuine dislike and distrust of organised religion I still have a perverse sence of respect for people who are religious because I've seen the good it can do.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Del Lardo

but I can't help but looking at what other major religions have done in the last 2000 years

but as far as I am concerned religion is to blame for a lot of the VERY bad things that are going on in the world at the moment.

These are both very valid points and I completely agree with you. People have, do, and will continue to do very bad things, either claiming (misguidedly) religious grounds or using the position granted to them as a result of religion. Catholic Priests and Bishops commiting unspeakable acts against children, Muslim 'Fundamentalists' wishing death on anyone who doesn't follow Sharia law. Need I go on? But how many of these seem to permeate the entire structure of the religion. Does the Pope condone those unspeakable acts? Do moderate Muslim leaders condone Fundamentalist acts? I don't think so. Does Tom Cruise and his ilk condone the acts commited against so-called heretics aginst Scientology. I don't know but given comments in the OP video and the BBC one I've seen nothing that would make me say no.

I am not trying to compare individual acts commited in the name of Scientology to those in the name of Islam or any other religion. Indeed anyone who wished to argue that case would have a hard time arguing that those in the name of Islam were not worse. However, comparing the religion as a whole and what one might consider 'normal' in each, the pendulum can easily swing the other way.

There are also situations from my life that make it very hard for me to ever accept organised religion despite my mothers best attempts to make me a Christian.

A very valid point and one I think contributes. I don't think anyone should ever attempt to make someone believe. Persuade, perhaps, but no further. In the end someone either believes or they do not. If they do not, then that's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned. I know a lot of people don't think that way though.

What makes you want to go and what to you get from the experience?

Not really a religious thing actually - though there's been an apt sermon or two and that's certainly been thought provoking. My main incentive was simply to get up, do something, and interact with people, rather than sitting on my butt on my own all day.

[Pheebs]

Some aspects in Scientology seem great, others seem completely and utterly poopy and loony!

For example, I have met a good handful of rehabilitated drug addicts (previously were on the likes of Herion and Crack but had been clean for 5 years odd) who did this through the practices of Dianetics. Impressive I felt, and even more so to see them putting so much effort into helping others rehabilitate (not through preaching but as listening ears and help lines). However, as pointed out by Dymmy boy, this big pile of doggy doo doos about birth is just a distant echo of the kind of codswallop that dribbled from the mouth of Freud (who I respect and admire greatly but think things were taken a bit too literal!) All I can say is that it is quite evident the founder of the religion is a man! What a nincompoop!

I would like to say that it rings very many "cult" bells in my head, but I feel most religions do.

Take Christianity. Despite professing to be a Christian myself, I find attending a weekly mass whereby the same words and phrases are repeated, generally in a monotoned and unnatural way, is extremely cult like. It really worries me that people do this... I actually have found myself in Church a few times and looked around to see everyone looking zombified! It was terrifying! Not only that but at my Nannies funeral I was REALLY peeved off to be told I was a sinner and we all were sinners and we had to repent our sins as we're not worthy. I nearly gave the silly priest a knuckle sandwich! How dare he!

Anyway, I believe that bits of different world religions are superb and have good intentions. Not all parts though, but hey, nothings perfect If people are level headed enough to know where to draw the line that's fab. If they wanna go along with the whole craziness then there's plenty of people and literature to convince them not to - I would say it's their choice inevitably but I mean this for Scientology. I understand that many other people are forced into religions without any say and for them I feel sorry. I am glad I live in a society which accepts what decisions I make and gives me the opportunity to choose.

I could go on. But I won't. Because master chef is on now good thread - as suggested by kitten probably best off in the serious section though!

[Matblack]

I've read quite a bit about Scientology I'll bullet point what puts me off

Dianetics was writen by a science ficton author in the the 70s with no source material or devine intervention i.e. he made it up. Admitedly he 'made it up' to provide background to a valid self help technique that he had invented and it is this which provides the material to get people off drugs etc. I have no beef with Dianetic except its links to Scientology.

Akin to some other religions Scientology advocates 'removal', if an indoctrinated member has people around him that try to talk 'sense' into him then the church will remove him and forbit contact with people from his past. The church do not want their members talking about their beliefs and entering into discussion. This is quite a common theme, a lot of Scientology is secret, members do not discuss the faith unless its one on one with the indoctrinated, ideas are introduced gradually as members atain various 'levels'. Most members of faiths will discuss their relegions because they feel they are right and can argue their corner, the basis of Scientology is so absurd that this just isn't feisable, you talk about thetans with someone who doesn't already have some belief and they will laugh in your face.

Have you read about what there guys believe? Zoltan, Thetans, Volcanos, its classic science fiction. I wonder why?

Covert recruitment to get people indoctrinated isn't something which I agree with, a lot of people with real issues are introduced to Dianetics as a form of help or are groomed by use of an electronic testing device which tells them their potential. They start a course of Dianetics and after a while they are introduced to Scientology.

Lastly, its a load of old balls.

MB

[Desmo]

Scientology is a pretty cool name though

[Belmit]

I don't understand the awards and stuff they get. It's like getting a gold star in school. Tom Cruise is the teacher's pet that all the other Scientologists probably hate.