Vegetarianism - The Debate

[Will]

Originally Posted by goldilocks

Kitten - i appreciate that there are many complex reasons why we didn't have childhood obesity and 'food scares' then - (and not all of them good reasons, as you have pointed out) what i am saying is that meat (and cheap, poorly reared, bad quality, fatty, over processed readily available meat at that) is one of the reasons why we have them now

i am in no way suggesting that they were better off, just that we could be a lot healthier by making only tiny changes to the meat industry

Yup - spot on.

[Stan_Lite]

Originally Posted by goldilocks

we could be a lot healthier by making only tiny changes to the meat industry

Amen to that.

Like Will, I prefer to get my meat from a family butcher as the meat is less likely to be mass produced and will probably be reared somewhere fairly local where you can check to see how ethically the livestock is reared. Most family butchers will have certificates and will gladly tell you where their produce comes from.

Trouble is, as Will said, there aren't that many around and I've not got around to finding one nearby yet (although I did have a bit of luck on the interweb recently and will have a look at the place when I get back). I also prefer to buy my basic veg requirements (especially root vegetables) from the local butcher as these also tend to be sourced locally and are usually nice and fresh.

It is somewhat unfair that the best quality produce is usually the most expensive, meaning that the poorest people are forced to buy the poorest quality produce. I enjoy meat and eat it most days, which I know isn't healthy for someone as sedentary as me but Luckily I can afford the better quality stuff so I'm in a better position than some.

I want to live in Will's food Utopia

On the subject of vegetarianism. Like Kitten, I'm a lapsed veggie but I think that was more of a fashion statement than any real conviction as I soon went back to meat after I left college. During the 2 years I didn't eat meat, I took it seriously but I was never entirely comfortable with it. I would try to tell myself that my flatmates' sausages were wrong and that I was doing the right thing but at the back of my mind was always the thought "I bet those taste nice".

[Jonny69]

Ooooookay... looks like I have a pretty deep hole to dig myself out of here

First up I'd had a few beers last night and I was on the offensive but not out to offend. I saw my new thread and went oh my god what have I started, I don't even remember doing this...

I'll explain my comment first. I don't agree with meat substitutes, they are pretending to be something they aren't and by referring to them as crap I was actually lumping them in with most pre-prepared manufactured rubbish. Lets face it, using that stuff is a bit of a cop out, especially when there is so much tasty stuff out there to eat instead. My intention was to start a veggie cooking thread but this tread has conveniently got the bit of the thread out the way that would have inevitably occured - the veggies vs carnivores debate - so this is actually a good thing

A bit of background. I have nothing against vegetarianism or veganism, I sometimes wonder when folk let their health suffer as a result but it's their choice not mine. I don't like having the 'meat is murder opinion' forced on me but it rarely happens because, lets face it, it's normally from teenagers having their vegetarian fad or hippies living in fields in clothes made from used hemp sacks.

I do care about where my meat products come from and I do care that it is used to the maximum. I would prefer it if my meat came from a known trusted source but it's difficult for that to happen and as a result I have given up non-free range chicken along with the bandwagon and I generally only eat meat that is difficult to battery farm. I get irritated when meat eaters are squeamish around meat or handling it and when they refuse to utilise the whole animal.

I cook veggie meals at least 5 times a week and my meat consumption is arranged around that unless I feel like a meaty blowout. It's healthier and I can afford to have a little of a very good thing and really enjoy it rather than big plate of something disappointing and mediocre.

The whole budget thing is rubbish in my opinion. Yes it will limit how much meat you eat but I can get 5 meals out of a small chicken or whatever bird so even if it costs £7 it still represents value for money to me. Once it costs what it costs you tend to care about it a bit more and use it up properly rather than throwing half of it away. I cannot believe the number of people that don't pick a chicken carcass clean. I can understand not making a stock but the pickings make another meal for me. Even worse, some people only eat the breasts and thrown the rest in the bin!!! The dark meat is not fatty, it is on a battery farmed chicken but on a normal bird it's less fatty than the breasts on a battery chicken.

Last point because it looks like I didn't mention it, my girlfriend who I live with is veggie and has introduced me to many many non-brown veggie foods I didn't know existed (hence no excuses for Quorn roast ) so keep an eye out for my veggie cooking thread and if anyone starts it for me this time I'll kill 'em

[goldilocks]

Originally Posted by Kitten

Maybe if you were a single mum with 5 kids you'd feel differently. 1 small chicken at £7 is probably not enough to give all of you one meal. It's easy to say when you've only got yourself to feed from it

but that's the whole point - why feed children rubbish that you wouldn't particularly want to eat yourself?
if anything it is MORE applicable to the single mum with 5 kids to feed on a tight budget - when the vegetarian options will work out cheaper (farm shop vegetables, fresh eggs, pasta etc etc) and a lot more healthily for the children.

although i am very vocal on the ethics of vegetarianism - it is also about the health issue

(oh and thanks for your reply jonny if you read the thread - i thought you were on about a veggie cooking thread too, i know your gf is veggie - and as such you'd have a wealth of tasty ideas for meals - although i agree that quorn isn't the epitome of veggie fine dining - it's nice to have a readily available, easy to cook and healthy source of protein for those of us who don't eat the animal kind)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Jonny69

so keep an eye out for my veggie cooking thread and if anyone starts it for me this time I'll kill 'em

Hurry up then

I have to admit to being a bit of a noob when it comes to fresh veg - at home my dad did it, then my nan mainly used tins. With Mic not being a huge fan of veggies, its left me being...well...basically being thick.
When I made my stew before someone suggested adding leeks, and I am completely ashamed to admit that I wouldn't know how to prepare one (well - I might be able to muddle thru it, but because I wasn't sure, I just avoided it instead)

Some nice basic "how to prepare" and then some "and here's what you can do with it" threads would be great

[LeperousDust]

Originally Posted by Takhisis

Hurry up then

I have to admit to being a bit of a noob when it comes to fresh veg - at home my dad did it, then my nan mainly used tins. With Mic not being a huge fan of veggies, its left me being...well...basically being thick.
When I made my stew before someone suggested adding leeks, and I am completely ashamed to admit that I wouldn't know how to prepare one (well - I might be able to muddle thru it, but because I wasn't sure, I just avoided it instead)

Some nice basic "how to prepare" and then some "and here's what you can do with it" threads would be great

I wouldn't say theres always a correct way to prepare veggies, i choose whatever i like the taste of, looks different, is cheap, looks nice etc... I chop it up how i see fit... Either skin, top/tail, cube, slice, chose on (or more) of those depending on what bits look tastiest and most edible!

[goldilocks]

Originally Posted by Kitten

It's very easy to only look at things from your own point of view (not yours specifically, I mean just from the view of the individual) and to say that the budget issue is rubbish and that cheap chicken should be banned. It's not that simple though.

but..

Originally Posted by Kitten

I've already said that imo vegetarianism is by far the better option on a budget (that's not the debate I don't think).

what benefits, in real terms, do the children get on a cheap meat diet?
if the cheap meat option wasn't available, other alternatives would have to be found.

this shouldn't be made into an issue of class, social status, or wealth - it is purely a dietary discussion. vegetarian food is often healthier and cheaper - whatever your economic status, you can make your money go further with veggie food and still have a healthy and complete diet.

[SidewinderINC]

Originally Posted by goldilocks

this shouldn't be made into an issue of class, social status, or wealth - it is purely a dietary discussion. vegetarian food is often healthier and cheaper - whatever your economic status, you can make your money go further with veggie food and still have a healthy and complete diet.

Haven't you contradicted yourself there?

You've said it should be purely dietary and then gone to say "you can make vegetarian food go further on the same budget" which is a wealth issue.

Vegetarian food (when you know how to work with raw ingredients) is cheaper yes, but if not then you pay through the nose for it.
And the "vegetarian food is often healthier and cheaper" statement, again is a budget thing, becuase if you can buy good meat then there is no reason to suggest that it is less healthy than a vegetarian option.

[Will]

Maybe they should bring in ration cards for the "poorer" families to be able to have access to good cuts of meat at least once a week? The way I see it, is can you afford NOT to spend a bit more on quality food? You are what you eat, if you eat crap your body will respond in like. Touch wood I've never had so much as a cold in my life (no word of a lie I promise you) I have never been ill (bar the occasional hang over), yes it could be genes but also I firmly believe is because we are quite snobby about good quality food in my family. We aren't that well off not by any means, but at the same time we don't believe in eating **** food. Not only for the taste but for the quality and nourishment of it.

If they made the better quality foods more accessible, got rid of mass farming and battery farming, the prices would eventually drop. If we stopped developing on farm land gave the farmers more support and subsidy we'd have a turn around. It's bloody megalith corporations and commercialism and convenience ergo laziness that comes into play. We're too clever for our own good.

Maybe the poorer who are on income support people should be banned from having sky tv/smoking etc... but offered the chance to buy good quality food with "food tokens." Then again this starts towards socialism/communism (which IMO in a utopia works really well).

[goldilocks]

i just wrote a huuuuuge long post and then realised that it probably made me come across like a Class A Arse, and as passionate as i am on this issue, i don't want to sound like a stuck record.

i think we just have to agree to disagree on this.
not the best outcome to an argument - but then why does there need to be a resolution?

i will never eat meat, and in my opinion if people are going to choose to eat meat then it should be ethically sourced...
but if this is not an option for some people - then who am i to say they can't have it?

(though in reality i will still continue to glare at people with cheap meat in their trollies)

it's an interesting discussion