Vegetarianism - The Debate

[Jonny69]

This thread was created from a discussion split from another thread - Desmo

Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/

I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.

[LeperousDust]

Originally Posted by Jonny69

Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/

I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.

Actually what i think, but you were braver than me to say it

Belmit, lookin' good. I really did cheap out today, mince, oinions, garlic ,chilli and a cheap sauce for my chilli con carne. But i have duck to come soon (2.50 for a breast!) *nom*! I will think of some excellent orange/plum sauce to go with... I want to get back to some "real" cooking

[goldilocks]

Originally Posted by Jonny69

Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/

I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.

a real vegetarian?
wow, there was me thinking that a 'real vegetarian' was someone who avoided eating animal products AT ANY COSTS
i don't eat meat substitutes because 'omg i really miss meat and want to eat something that vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system' - i cook them because it's nice to have the option to cook a wide variety of foods - regardless of what they look like / what they are 'pretending to be'.
(another benefit to meat substitutes is that meat-eaters will often happily add them into their diet (blackstar / pheebs for 2 in this thread) and imo anything that will save a fish / chicken / pig from a plate for another day has got to be a good idea)
and what makes the food i choose to cook 'crap' - it's healthy (quorn, although by definition is a processed food is low in fat / salt) and allows me to cook a variety of meals that i couldn't just substitute in a piece of veg for the 'main ingredient'

by all means start a vegetarian cooking thread, but please don't do it because 'we vegetarians' are missing out - but rather to educate those who still think that eating things that once lived / breathed is 'ok' and that there are numerous alternatives to having 'murder' on your dinner plate :/

Originally Posted by LeperousDust

Actually what i think, but you were braver than me to say it

i don't think that the act of expressing opinions should ever have an element of bravery to it - if you believe in something - you have to be willing to state your mind and stick to it

(sorry for thread-jacking Tak - i will happily delete this is you want to stick to the topic of BDRSC)

[Stan_Lite]

Originally Posted by goldilocks

Stuff

Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.

If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.

[Jasper]

Originally Posted by Jonny69

Sorry, I just don't 'get' the whole meat subsitute thing. If you have to live on that crap then what's the point in eating anything at all? Be a real vegetarian and please eat something that isn't pretending to be an animal product :/

I'm going to start a veggie cooking thread I think.

that post doesn't sound like you, at all, Jonny. You've always seemed more the live and let live type of guy, but you're coming across as a bit of a nobber there.

1. you don't have to get something in order for someone else to enjoy it
2. the fundamental "point in eating anything at all" is to survive. If you enjoy the stuff you eat to survive, then it's all good, regardless of whether someone else thinks it's crap.
3. I'm pretty sure you're not the authority on "real" vegetarianism

Different people are vegetarian for different reasons - either way, I don't see eating meat substitutes as hypocritical, unless you're one of those pain-in-the-ass vegetarians who thinks that eating meat substitutes as a veggie makes you a hypocrite.

I am a vegetarian because I disagree with the unethical treatment of animals that are to be eaten. And by "unethical", I don't mean "the poor animals are bred to die"; it's not as simple as that. The thing I can't stand is that animals aren't given a good life until the point that they die - I couldn't trust that what I was eating hadn't lived in a cage that was just bigger than it its entire life, or not fed a correct/decent diet, or just generally had the quality of life that I believe all living things fundamentally deserve.

I was speaking to a guy at work the other day who makes for an illustrative anecdote of the kind of meat eater I would be if I were to go back to meat now. This guy works full time with me (well, he could fire me but we're still colleagues!), but he also owns a farm. His farm allows him and his family to be all but self-sufficient. They grow all of their own vegetables and meat for consumption, and their animals are kept as pets until the point that they are to be eaten. They are loved, given names, they play with kids, live in a vast amount of space (I can't remember exactly how much, but I remember thinking "I would have a quad bike!") and generally treated like one of the family. He "would be a vegetarian if [he] couldn't live like this". The only difference between this guy and myself is I'm certain that I wouldn't have the heart to kill and eat a family member when there's perfectly viable alternatives that fit my lifestyle, and I enjoy.

So, please don't presume to know what you're talking about when you talk about proper vegetarians and their diet, when vegetarianism is (very!! I mean, some veggies eat fish and chicken!) open to interpretation and you don't really have a clue what you're talking about unless you know the individual and their reasoning. When you speak in this way, you run the risk of getting people's backs up unnecessarily, when you're not really making a valid point anyway.

Originally Posted by Bigstan

Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.

If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.

everyone's entitled to their opinion. Jonny expressed his without really caring whose nose he got up, so why shouldn't anyone else? If you interpret those phrases as guilt trips then that's your inference - I know for a fact that's not the way it's supposed to come across. Some people are very passionnate about this sort of thing, and they say it like they see it. Fair enough, it's not really appropriate in a thread that's obviously going to have no consideration for vegetarians, and it does seem like crusading - but you have to wonder, would phrases like that be being bandied around if Jonny hadn't been so insensitive in the first place? Probably not.

[Roberta]

I hate these debates. It always turns into name calling and insults so I tend never to get involved as I really can't b bothered with it all.

I've now been vegan for 14 years. I tend not to mention it unless I have to because it is my personal choice to live like this and nobody else's business. I respect other people's decision to live as they think right and hope they would afford me the same respect. Unfortunately that rarely happens so I just avoid talking about it.

Seeing as there was a question asked though, any 'pretend meat' products I tend to eat are to add protein to my diet. On the whole I don't use fake meat stuff but will occasionally for a bit of variety. I tend to simply use other sources 99% of the time.

[Will]

Originally Posted by Bigstan

Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.

If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.

I agree completely I'm afraid. And Jonny's point to me didn't come across as harsh IMO.

We're homosapiens, we're omnivores, we're designed to eat vegetables and meat - end of, FACT whatever thing you want to say. We're at the top of the food chain, and that's just the way it is. Heck, animals get their own back from time to time when they kill a human, we're not indestructable. We've been eating meat since the dawn of time, and we've evovled with that diet in mind.

I have couple of vegetarian friends and the reason they don't eat is because they were never brought up to eat meat, and as a result they just don't like the taste. Some others just don't like the fact that boor bambie or daisy had to die an are a bit grossed out by blood. That's fair enough.

Also people deciding they just don't want to eat meat because they just don't want to I have no issues with at all. It's a free choice. Just like I'm abstaining from alcohol at the moment, or don't smoke, it's a choice I make.

What I cannot and will not tolerate is the opinion that eating meat is wrong. What a pile of bull****. I just have no time for that at all.

[goldilocks]

again, sorry for derailing Taks thread - but I'm afraid on issues like this i'm like a dog with a bone (ho-ho)

Originally Posted by Bigstan

Most people don't really have any problems with vegetarianism as such - maybe if vegetarians stopped using terms like "having 'murder' on your dinner plate" and "vaguely looks like it once had a circulatory system", trying to lay the guilt trip on omnivores they would encounter less hostility.

If you tell me you're a vegetarian and don't eat meat, that's fine by me but if you try to lay the guilt thing on me by telling me that my choice of food is "murder", you just get my back up in the same way as you got annoyed when Jonny criticised your choice of food.

it's not about 'guilt tripping' it's about how I see what you are eating - if Jonny can say that meat substitutes are 'crap' then i am surely allowed to defend them - and explain why i choose to eat them.

i think vegetarianism is a very interesting topic
meat eaters seem to think that as soon as vegetarians start to rationalize their choices - that we are guilt tripping them - if you don't think what you're doing is 'wrong' or 'morally unjust', then what is there to feel guilty about?
if we can have a sensible and reasoned discussion about omnivorous diets vs. vegetarian diets - it should be interesting, but i am sure that no one will be able to make me feel guilty about my diet choice, or even make me consider changing my mind.

i did not start a discussion with the aim to offend people, get their backs up, or even to try and change their mind - but this is an issue i am PASSIONATE about - and it would be unreasonable of others to expect me to not defend my lifestyle when it comes under criticism.

[Will]

That's fair enough - I don't think you're getting people's backs up.

I used to work at a butchers so I'm afraid I'm never going to feel guilty about eating meat!

[Jasper]

Originally Posted by Will

I agree completely I'm afraid. And Jonny's point to me didn't come across as harsh IMO.

that's because you don't fit his "don't eat substitutes if you're a real vegetarian" remit. I can quite believe that as someone who's an omnivore and doesn't see the point in vegetarianism wouldn't see it as harsh. I'm not entirely sure how proud you are of being French, but for the sake of this you are very proud - it's like someone saying you're not really French because you communicate in English a lot of the time. First of all, it's nonsense, second of all, it's likely to get your back up; calling into question who you are and something you're proud of.

Originally Posted by Will

We're homosapiens, we're omnivores, we're designed to eat vegetables and meat - end of, FACT whatever thing you want to say. We're at the top of the food chain, and that's just the way it is. Heck, animals get their own back from time to time when they kill a human, we're not indestructable. We've been eating meat since the dawn of time, and we've evovled with that diet in mind.

It doesn't make any difference to me what people have been doing long enough to evolve. racism has been a part of our culture for years and years, and generations have been indoctrinated to think this way - does that make going against the grain and doing what you think's right a bad thing?

Originally Posted by Will

I have couple of vegetarian friends and the reason they don't eat is because they were never brought up to eat meat, and as a result they just don't like the taste. Some others just don't like the fact that boor bambie or daisy had to die an are a bit grossed out by blood. That's fair enough.

Also people deciding they just don't want to eat meat because they just don't want to I have no issues with at all. It's a free choice. Just like I'm abstaining from alcohol at the moment, or don't smoke, it's a choice I make.

What I cannot and will not tolerate is the opinion that eating meat is wrong. What a pile of bull****. I just have no time for that at all.

for me, eating meat is wrong by extension because of the way animals are treated (for the most part) in the farming process, so I'm afraid you'll have to tolerate it.

Originally Posted by Kitten

absolutely close my mind to your argument because you're saying 'don't tell me something I already know is incorrect', but to educate people like me that it's not ok to eat something that once lived. Ok, now my point - if I accept that you are a vegetarian, and you have made that decision and I absolutely agree that you have that right - who the hell are you to tell me that I 'need' educating on what I do or do not do? Maybe I have considered the situations that animals lived in and have made a conscious decision to continue meat eating. Therefore I do not need educating, nor do I need you to patronise me.

I didn't see that comment like that - she never said anything about "needing" to be educated, rather to educate people in vegetarian cooking - the emotive language was a little misleading, though.