Thoughts on Suicide

[Aitch]

Ultimately I believe your life, your choice.

However, so much depends on the individual case. There is a strong link with depression which has the power to distort a person's rationality and obliterate any hope for the future. Anyone who has viewed someone close to them go through this would disagree with these feelings and in a lot of cases so too would that person after/between bouts of depression.

Any justified decision to me would have to be a rational one that had been considered over time and after considering other options.

I have been trying to think of examples I could understand/justify and I think it they would relate to quality of life; your own e.g. a long-term medical condition, or your effect on the quality of life of those around you e.g. you were aware you had a personality disorder (psychopath, rapist, paedophile) that cannot be effectively treated or controlled.

What disturbs me with the second example above is the closeness to possible justifications for capital and other non-rehabilitative criminal punishments.

[Aitch]

On the subject of depression one of the best written sources I have come across is a book called 'Depression and how to survive it' by Antony Clare (psychiatrist) and Spike Milligan (manic depressive). It is case specific but provides insight to both other sufferers themselves and to those close to them wishing to understand better.

[Pheebs]

Originally Posted by cleanbluesky/ Reuters

Hahaha, remind me to criticise your cards

Please do If I don't receive criticism I cannot improve my product and sales ethic

Stuff ( I did read it )

You're a funny man! You've just kind of proved my point! I agree with you fully about depression and that the human brain is so incredibly complex it's almost impossible to impose one solution to all and say "well this is a chemical imbalance" and "this is because they need this attention". And the whole anti depressants and what not being a political and funding thing - I should imagine it does have some form of influence indeedy. I personally hate them and think they're dished out too readily and are often a short term solution which often results in a long term problem (note are often - not always - I think the right people and circumstances they will suit the individual and provide a solution). It's always going to be individual but... do you agree that in *some* people their depression *may* in fact be caused by some kind of chemical imbalance of which they have little - or no control over what so ever? If you do agree with this statement then the general theory of depression being attention seeking and requiring people to "snap out of it" is.. well... redundant

Generalising when referring individual behavioral issues is ludicrous! And you should know that studying psychotherapy

As for the evolutionary theory... it's a good one but once again I think it fails to explain all. You just cannot generalise!! If you do it's a very narrow minded way of thinking!

In simplistic and most probably patronising terms it's like saying "all these eggs in this basket have one yolk". You may be right, but you'd only know if you cracked each one open individually to see.

[cleanbluesky]

Originally Posted by Pheebs

It's always going to be individual but... do you agree that in *some* people their depression *may* in fact be caused by some kind of chemical imbalance of which they have little - or no control over what so ever? If you do agree with this statement then the general theory of depression being attention seeking and requiring people to "snap out of it" is.. well... redundant

I don't know, and I'd rather stick to that position until I find some evidence either way. There have been lots of 'depression from nowhere' diagnosis in the past and the latest 'chemical imbalance' idea is no different from the idea of endogenous depression or perhaps demonic posession.

What exactly is the value of a 'depression from nowhere' attitude, it often seems like an excuse to lock people away...

Generalising when referring individual behavioral issues is ludicrous! And you should know that studying psychotherapy

Shut it.

As for the evolutionary theory... it's a good one but once again I think it fails to explain all. You just cannot generalise!! If you do it's a very narrow minded way of thinking!

In simplistic and most probably patronising terms it's like saying "all these eggs in this basket have one yolk". You may be right, but you'd only know if you cracked each one open individually to see.

I think that the first thing you should do is generalise, and if that doesn't work then find an individual solution. I'm not gonna pretend that everything is vague and individual when it isn't, even if many would like to believe we are beautiful and unique snowflakes, WE AREN'T. There are simple solutions to a lot of cases (simple meaning obvious, rather than not requiring hard work) they should be tried first.

What alternatives are there to generalising? Walking around in a constant state of stupor without the desire to predict anything?

[Pheebs]

Generalising is good to an extent BUT it should be accepted there will be differences and not tar everyone with the same brush! It's quite simple!

I think you're just trying to be a pain in the bum CBS and cause more debates over not a lot

If you want to believe that people with depression can simply "snap out of it" and/or are only looking for attention and that there is no chance of some depression being physical AND chose to generalise and ignore other factors, you go right ahead mate Seems to be an incredibly narrow viewpoint!

[Gnat]

Originally Posted by Pheebs

If you want to believe that people with depression can simply "snap out of it" and/or are only looking for attention and that there is no chance of some depression being physical AND chose to generalise and ignore other factors, you go right ahead mate Seems to be an incredibly narrow viewpoint!

I agree with this.

I think though, that when people do just get over depression without any treatement, probably throught their circumstances changing, and things like their lifestyle, which might have been having a negative effect on their state of mind before, that people can sometimes see this as a thing of "oh see, you just needed to pull yourself together, there was nothing wrong with you at all".

That is just what i have seen though and is just my opinion

[Pheebs]

Yeh I agree Olibubble

[cleanbluesky]

Originally Posted by Pheebs

Generalising is good to an extent BUT it should be accepted there will be differences and not tar everyone with the same brush! It's quite simple!

Again, tar is rarely useful as a treatment for mental health.

The question is, how do you treat people who cant afford individual treatment. The NHS may be putting money into therapy but 6 sessions of CBT isn't much and I'm betting it will only be offered in support of standardised treatments.

I think you're just trying to be a pain in the bum CBS and cause more debates over not a lot

Acquiesce then.

If you want to believe that people with depression can simply "snap out of it" and/or are only looking for attention and that there is no chance of some depression being physical AND chose to generalise and ignore other factors, you go right ahead mate Seems to be an incredibly narrow viewpoint!

Snap out of it is a brilliant term to describe it, because that's what people do - slowly. Ask any ex depressive how they were cured, and they wont be able to tell you. The reason for this is its mostly unconcious, so finding whatever will make that unconcious change and 'snap out' of their depression can be useful.

You've now spent several posts picking me up on what is essentially, a turn of phrase.

[cleanbluesky]

Originally Posted by Olibubble

"oh see, you just needed to pull yourself together, there was nothing wrong with you at all".

That is just what i have seen though and is just my opinion

I don't agree with 'pulling yourself together' because I don't think an individual can do it on their own - certainly not quickly.

[Gnat]

Originally Posted by cleanbluesky/ Reuters

I don't agree with 'pulling yourself together' because I don't think an individual can do it on their own - certainly not quickly.

you dont think someone can help themselves out of depression?