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Old 20-10-2008, 08:33   #41
Matblack
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Originally Posted by Piggymon View Post
Anyway, I can't believe people could be indifferent to animals suffering in the way that they do when they are bred for fur and skinned alive.
I have to say I am suprised and disapointed too, but if there are people out there making money from killing animals by removing their skin whilst they are still alive they can only do so in a world where many people are in favor or indifferent to is, so maybe I shouldn't be suprised.

I would have hoped that by bringing people up to speed about many of these animals being 'skinned alive' with out being despatched first after spending what lives they do have in conditions which in many cases cause them physical and mental anguish would maybe make people think. But maybe as I say I shouldn't be suprised

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Old 20-10-2008, 13:01   #42
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Creatures higher up the foodchain exploit those lower.

Does a bear have empathy for a fish as it rips its guts out? Does an owl give a **** about a mouse?

Why should we care about what are, at the end of the day, dumb animals?
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Old 20-10-2008, 13:22   #43
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Creatures higher up the foodchain exploit those lower.

Does a bear have empathy for a fish as it rips its guts out? Does an owl give a **** about a mouse?

Why should we care about what are, at the end of the day, dumb animals?
You playing devils advocate or is that genuinely how you feel?

I would say that one of the main thing with sets us apart from other animals is our ability to empathise with the pain of other living things, if that doesn't bother you at all then (like your mum told you) you're special

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Old 20-10-2008, 13:47   #44
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Why should we care about what are, at the end of the day, dumb animals?
Because we are more than just dumb animals.

As for the discussion in general, I don't have a problem with rearing animals for their food, their skin or any other reason we might need them. But I still think that we do need to care for them whilst they are alive and also make sure they are killed in the most humane way possible. I'll do my best to buy food that is from free range sources if I can but at the same time I'll not go without just because I can't.
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Old 20-10-2008, 17:51   #45
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Originally Posted by chumpychops View Post
Creatures higher up the foodchain exploit those lower.

Does a bear have empathy for a fish as it rips its guts out? Does an owl give a **** about a mouse?

Why should we care about what are, at the end of the day, dumb animals?
I imagine a bear regards a fish as nothing but food but we are not the same as bears. We understand that other creatures suffer pain and not only that but we have empathy for them and each other too. I'm quite sure that there are people out there who have no concern for other people suffering either but it doesn't make it right and I'm absolutely certain that this is not what the human race should aspire to. Indeed, I doubt we stand any chance of survival if our fate is to become creatures with no sense of empathy for the suffering of others.

The suffering of any sentient creature is not something that should be acceptable in a civilised society, IMO.
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Old 20-10-2008, 20:30   #46
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I imagine a bear regards a fish as nothing but food but we are not the same as bears.
Taking Dyms comment about chickens further, I regard chickens as food, nothing else. Does that make me a bear?


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We understand that other creatures suffer pain and not only that but we have empathy for them and each other too.
I understand that animals feel pain, but I don't really care about them.

You may think I'm being obtuse on purpose, but the point that I'm making which you can't understand is simply that I don't give a toss about the living conditions of animals that are bred for a specific purpose (food, fur, whatever), it just doesn't bother me. I am apathetic towards them.
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Old 20-10-2008, 21:43   #47
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Taking Dyms comment about chickens further, I regard chickens as food, nothing else. Does that make me a bear?.
I don't know what it makes you but I don't think you can claim a bear's lack of empathy for your own. Whether you like it or not, you're a human and that means you're capable of much greater empathy than any other species.

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I understand that animals feel pain, but I don't really care about them.
It does seem odd to me that you're like that. It's usually the sort of attitude a child has because, apparently, one of the later emotions to develop is empathy. Not that I think you're childish of course, but perhaps it's something that *may* change with age - of course, I have no idea how old you are

I also wonder why it is that women are more likely to have empathy for animals that men.

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You may think I'm being obtuse on purpose, but the point that I'm making which you can't understand is simply that I don't give a toss about the living conditions of animals that are bred for a specific purpose (food, fur, whatever), it just doesn't bother me. I am apathetic towards them.
You're right, I really don't understand your lack of concern for them. Following on from that, it surprises me that you don't shoot them as well as you'd think that, having no concern for their welfare, you'd find it enjoyable to shoot them (not that I'm suggesting it!). You're quite the enigma really
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Old 20-10-2008, 21:46   #48
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As much as I am against killing an animal solely for its fur, it's very easy for the middle-class champagne-sippers to condemn these people as the embodiment of evil, when more often than not they are shanty-dwelling paupers with nothing to their name just trying to provide for themselves and their families. Poverty can bring out the worst in people.
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Old 20-10-2008, 21:51   #49
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As much as I am against killing an animal solely for its fur, it's very easy for the middle-class champagne-sippers to condemn these people as the embodiment of evil, when more often than not they are shanty-dwelling paupers with nothing to their name just trying to provide for themselves and their families. Poverty can bring out the worst in people.
That's a strange way of putting it. The people condemning it aren't necessarily "middle-class, champagne-sippers" whatever they are though I take your point about people in poverty. However, it's up to the various Governments of all countries to ensure there is adequate legislation to protect animals from such cruelty. It's also up to the individual, the consumer, whether they sip champagne or not, to make an informed choice and reject fur as unnecessary and not worth the terrible suffering it often incurs.
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Old 20-10-2008, 23:23   #50
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Originally Posted by chumpychops View Post
Creatures higher up the foodchain exploit those lower.

Does a bear have empathy for a fish as it rips its guts out? Does an owl give a **** about a mouse?

Why should we care about what are, at the end of the day, dumb animals?
Does this mean that we are just slightly smarter dumb animals?

For the record I'm against causing unnecessary suffering to animals. This includes prolonged suffering from skinning alive, trapping, poisoning and bloodsports (such as fox hunting, dog-fighting)

WRT the meat industry I agree with killing for food providing animal welfare standards are adhered to and try and buy free range where possible. On the subject of halal/ kosher meat Im plonked quite squarely on the fence as I just don't know enough about them to say whether they are more or less humane than standard Western practice- the literature on the subject seems to be a bit vague and contradictory.
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