The Budget

[Admiral Huddy]

fingers crossed for you Fibster

[Admiral Huddy]

Originally Posted by Kitten

That's what benefits are supposed to be about, need, not greed.

Yes people on benefits need their obligatory cigarettes, the latest mobile phone and a weekly visit to the nail bar.

[Kitten]

Well, no, I was thinking more of the people who need money to pay for food to eat and a roof over their head. People who want to work but can't, due to illness, or other issues. Not everyone on benefits is a dole scrounger living the life of Riley, despite what you may believe. Unfortunately it's impossible at the moment (in my opinion) to ensure those that need get what they need and those that don't, don't. That's why I said, need not greed.

Do you honestly believe that people who make £50k+ [fixed to clarify] & have an annual household income of over £100k should be taking tax handouts to bring up the kids that they chose to have? I see people taking kids off on expensive foreign holidays (someone I work with just took their 2 kids to Dubai for a fortnight, they earn well over £150k combined, but are still entitled to and claim child benefits - fair? I don't think so). Shouldn't that money be paying for essentials? If you can afford Dubai holidays do you need the money you're given for essentials?

[Jonny69]

Originally Posted by Kitten

Do you honestly believe that people who make £50k+ or have an annual household income of over £100k should be taking tax handouts to bring up the kids that they chose to have?

With respect, my household income is somewhere in the order of £60K but I'm damn sure I CAN'T afford to have kids. Sure we're comfortable at the moment but drop one income out of that and all of a sudden the bills aren't covered.

So that's two well educated people who would bring up some good clever kids who aren't going to have children. I'll let the scumbag drug dealer across the way have the kids and he can bring up a selection of runts instead. I don't mind working hard and subsidising that

[Kitten]

I said joint household of £100k (and have clarified original post). The figures were fairly arbitary, anyway I haven't done a full Impact Assessment or anything.

In your situation, if you dropped one income, then you'd be entitled to child benefits, clearly.

The problem here is you (and pretty much everyone else) are comparing scumbag dossers with people who do work and make a living but who still don't need the handouts. So the workers are always going to come up on the side of 'yes I deserve them more than them and they're getting them so I'm going to too'. Well it's not about deserving, or at least it shouldn't be, it should be about who NEEDS it. Why should I subsidise people who earn a lot more than me because they have kids? I will probably never have kids, but I do have a dog - can I have it for her instead?

So a good comparison shouldn't be 'drug dealer v hard working person', it should be 'single mum (or dad) struggling to make ends meet working part time earning 7k a year and trying to keep a roof over their heads v hard working person earning £50k. We've got one handout. Who gets it?

Not quite the same picture now, is it?

*Of course, I do understand that you can't say anything at all about parents/family tax credits/family allowance, because that's not allowed unless you've got kids yourself or are happy to be called a child-eating baby hater.

[Lozza]

I understand what your saying Kitten and agree... what I don't understand is how some one who has never had a single or joint income of more than £30K and that's pushing to say that figure, can't get any working tax credit even when there is only one income coming in of less than £23k (at it's high point) yet people who earn like you have said can still get it.

What I found out is these are the people who work so damn hard to make so much money that they have to put their kids in child care from 3 months old so they can go back to work, and the kids are in childcare from 8am (if not earlier) to 6pm... hardly ever seeing these kids they so badly wanted!

the tax credits they get are to help pay for the child care... but lets face it you don't go back to work unless it's worth your while, so you have to be earning big bucks!

I'm in a very similar situation right now... My work want me there full time, but I would want my mum to look after the little one... she currently does with me working part time for no money.. But I'd want to pay her if she was doing it more often. As she is not a registered childcare person, I'm penalised because I want family to look after the little one rather than a stranger, as such I get no help with child care costs.

On my current wage... paying my mum minimum wage, I'd be working a 40 hour week as opposed to a 16 hour week for a whopping £3 a month extra.

Time with my child is worth far more than an extra £3 a month!

[Kitten]

I absolutely agree Lozza. You're the type of person who should be being helped by the system, and as it is, clearly isn't. The people earning those big bucks generally don't do the same working hours and can work from home in many cases, so they don't even need to pay for childcare on the same scale - yet take the money anyway - wheras you're scuppered and don't get the help you need to pay your Mum because she's supposed to do it out of some sense of duty.

To me that's just as unfair and wrong as the person sat at home counting their dole money, laughing at all the tax-payers.

[Lozza]

So much I could write..... but I'll save my energy lol

[Admiral Huddy]

Originally Posted by Kitten

Do you honestly believe that people who make £50k+ [fixed to clarify] & have an annual household income of over £100k should be taking tax handouts to bring up the kids that they chose to have?

Yeah why not.. Considering higher rate payer contribute more to the tax system yes. Otherwise someone on low income could better off net than those who are just over to higher rate tax payer.

My Mrs gets a thumping from the tax office because of what I earn. She works blooody hard looking after kids full time so why should her tax be assessed on what we bring in as a family. That's not fair. Personal tax system - B*******s

someone I work with just took their 2 kids to Dubai for a fortnight, they earn well over £150k combined, but are still entitled to and claim child benefits - fair? I don't think so).

Totally fair to be honest. Equal rights for all. Higher earners pay higher tax. Not being funny, but these people made the choice to succeed by hard work. Why should they be penalised for it. We all have choices on how we live. Some choice to sit ion their fat arses and expect handouts at the expense of "people how can afford it"

The % tax system is fair.. the more you earn the more tax you pay.. end of.

[Kitten]

and now your argument to 'need not greed' also looks quite different... You might get hammered by tax, but you get money back for being a family, no?

It's about making people understand NEED. You don't need a handout originally meant to help people buy essentials it if you earn that much money (from my example) or can afford expensive holidays, you just don't. And if you don't need it, you shouldn't be taking it. It's not about right or fairness (maybe it should be in some respects but it isn't). It's about giving people help to survive. Not making sure your kids have got the latest mobile phone or the newest trainers.

People bang on about the jobless and workshy people, and yeah that's horrible and annoying and it makes it seem ridiculous that some of us go out and work bloody hard to subsidise them. But I pay my tax, I'm perfectly entitled to not want it to go to well off families that really don't need it. And your equal rights for all - then where's the tax credit for me if I don't have kids? We pay (what I consider to be) a lot into the tax system, but I'm entitled to nothing, because if you don't have children, then you're not a family. If we're all entitled to a certain level because of earnings, then can I have an allowance that equals child benefit for 1 or 2 kids and have it paid into my pension fund? Please? Pretty please? After all, I've earned it, no?

That's why not.