Please help me make the right camera choice

[Matblack]

Originally Posted by Mark

Yup, I'd definitely agree with Canon or Panasonic, and Fuji make decent bridge cameras.

I'm mostly a happy snapper but there are times when I need that extra something that it seems only a DSLR can do.

There are times when I need to drive really really fast but I haven't sold my house to buy a Ferrari Enzo.......... yet.

MB

[Pheebs]

Awesome! As long as you're happy to lug it around then fair play There's times I canny be bothered with that and since my Canon died I have missed many brilliant photo opportunities (and meals) to snap away at and am gutted! For me, I think I'm more of a happy snapper than I am a budding pro (as much as I like to play!) I like my wonky shots of stupidity

Just thought I would chuck in my perspective from being lucky enough to have both to hand If you honestly feel you will get more use out of a SLR jobby and more joy then go go go! Mister Matt seems to have lots of awesome info on them I'd go with whatever he was saying!

Originally Posted by Matblack

There are times when I need to drive really really fast but I haven't sold my house to buy a Ferrari Enzo.......... yet.

MB

I lolled I think you just managed to sum up my point perfeckly

[Mark]

Thanks MB. Your opinion is certainly valued as you know me better than most. I totally agree that I'm borderline here - that's why I've spent so much time looking around.

As I said elsewhere, I have two current issues - noise and shadow detail. I know how to improve the situation with shadows now (dial up exposure compensation) but that probably makes the noise issue worse. I also did a test a few days ago with the S3 (shooting a streetlight against the sky) and when I went pixel hunting I discovered horrific fringing. You don't see this on a normal photo but I expect to be cropping heavily when it'll become very obvious.

My Canon S3 is a decent all-rounder - it just doesn't cope well with this problem (something photographers acknowledge is a difficult nut to crack - I've been reading the TP guides). I'm not going to get something just for an airshow (massive waste of money). My current frontrunner is now the Sony A300 (bargain price, decent Live View, comparable results at least at low ISO, and a proven system unlike the Panasonic), but I need to check out the viewfinder first. Canon is second. Panasonic is out of the running because I don't think they will be around in the UK by the end of May (I need lots of practice time).

I'm going to do exactly what you say - pick a few bodies (Sony A300/A350, Canon 450D, Nikon D60) and ask them to stick at least a 200mm on the end of it and then hold it properly and see how it feels to handle. Cheapest one that does the job wins.

My main reason for looking at the 40D was because there are a few around. That's not justificiation on it's own - just late night researching. If the cost to step up a level is only £50-£100, then I'll consider. If not, I won't. I suspect the latter but I wanted to keep my options open until I've had time to go hold some cameras.

[Matblack]

I've been thinking about this in the car on the way in and a few additional points that I think you need to consider.

Please bear in mind that if I thought you were doing the right thing going dSLR I would be supporting you all the way, I am not jelous, I have no reason for persuading you not to buy one other than I feel it will not give you what you want or it will but at a huge investment of time, money and compromise.



A bridge or a compact is a unit an SLR is a system.

Before I left I looked at my SLR kit and I was astounded by how much I carry for a days shooting. My Tamrac bag which I am sure you saw the last time we met is the size of a medium rucksac and contains mmy SLR body, a short zoom, a longer zoom, my filters, spare batteries, spare CF cards, my gorrila pod, remote release, if I had one my grip and depending on the situation my flash, altogether this is about 12lbs and takes up my whole back when traveling between shots. I would guess that this is the minimum someone would need if they wanted to shoot an airshow and take a few ground shots; you may wish to add a monopod and a seperate bag for a larger zoom.

Right now I have room in my bag for possibly a packet of sandwiches and an ipod, nothing else.On the other hand a compact or bridge contains everything it needs and can be kept around the neck or put on a belt, leaving the back free for whatever you need for the day especially if traveling by public transport which I know you do.

Less consistant

I've taken more rubbish with mmy SLR than any compact and I expect this to continue. You know this and I'm probably going over old ground by the difference between a dSLR and compact is like the difference between a Ford Fiesta and an F1 car, my point being that an F1 car needs constant tweaking to get the best out of it and a compact/ bridge can be driven by anyone with minimal skill or training. Yes a Canon dSLR has a green square setting where the camera will do everything but its not going to get you the best results certainly not for fast moving planes, if you are not getting intimate with the apature priority and time priority on your bridge cameras then again I wouldn't recomend the move, thats why I bought a bridge to see if I used all the flexibility and I did so I made the switch.

You are still going to be dispointed

Yep, I look at the pics on TP and other places, try to replicate them and fail and I have good glass (not great glass) and a good camera. However the guys who are shooting planes and putting them up on TP have great glass, great skill and have put in many many hours of fine tuning. A dSLR will still give noise even a 5D will, and 90% of pics shot on RAW (if your not using this then IMHO you probably don't need an SLR) will need some post processing work to remove anomolies and boost the sharpness and colours.

It'll eat time and money

I want L glass (well actually I want good glass the two are not interdependant), its irrational, its financially silly to spend £900+ on a lens that only does what my current lens does but a little bit better, but I STILL want it and you will too. I spent Sunday afternoon taking photos and then the evening post processing them and although I enjoyed a lot of it, it ate a day of my life. With a compact I'd have come home done something else and then shown what I had created to Aitch and watched a film. It probably took me 20-30 minutes for every shot I was pleased with and I was frustrated with many others

Its fantastic

When you hit a shot just right then its a great feeling, I find myself wanting to share my work with other people despite the fact its not very good, I want to spend hours post processinig and learning lightroom, I want people to tell me where I am going wrong on TP and here and offer C&C, I want to buy a new lens and play with bokeh and remote triggers and learn strobist technique and manual flash use........

but sometimes I wish I could point a camera at a target pull the trigger and put the camera back in my pocket and walk away and do something else and if you think that you might ever want to do that then think twice before you spend a lot of money

MB

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Matblack

I've been thinking about this in the car on the way in and a few additional points that I think you need to consider.

Thanks MB for taking the serious amount of time you have on this. Consider a beer (or several) owed.

Please bear in mind that if I thought you were doing the right thing going dSLR I would be supporting you all the way, I am not jelous, I have no reason for persuading you not to buy one other than I feel it will not give you what you want or it will but at a huge investment of time, money and compromise.

I know that, and I appreciate what you're doing.

A bridge or a compact is a unit an SLR is a system.

This is the biggest problem I'm having - not the distinction, but the choice of which system to choose. There are at least three, possibly four popular systems out there and they all have plus and minus points, though in most cases the differences are fairly subtle. Changing systems at a later date can be done but it's horrifically expensive, so I'm taking the 'do it once, do it right' attitude. That's just making the decision harder though.

Before I left I looked at my SLR kit and I was astounded by how much I carry for a days shooting. My Tamrac bag which I am sure you saw the last time we met is the size of a medium rucksac and contains mmy SLR body, a short zoom, a longer zoom, my filters, spare batteries, spare CF cards, my gorrila pod, remote release, if I had one my grip and depending on the situation my flash, altogether this is about 12lbs and takes up my whole back when traveling between shots. I would guess that this is the minimum someone would need if they wanted to shoot an airshow and take a few ground shots; you may wish to add a monopod and a seperate bag for a larger zoom.

This doesn't surprise me - I'd expect at least a body and two lenses, batteries, cards, filters, flash to come later etc. I have a Tarmac shoulder bag and I'm very adept at filling that even with the bridge (camera, batteries, filter ring, filters, hood, batteries, cards, etc.). This doesn't come as a surprise to me.

Less consistant

Expected - more things going on, more to go wrong. For the airshow job I expect to be machinegunning like crazy (so I'll need big cards). There's always going to be the disappointment when crap happens, but right now I tend to get the buzz from good work only to go pixel hunting and see how crap it is. That's me though - perfectionist. Most people would probably be perfectly happy with the results.

Yes a Canon dSLR has a green square setting where the camera will do everything but its not going to get you the best results certainly not for fast moving planes, if you are not getting intimate with the apature priority and time priority on your bridge cameras then again I wouldn't recomend the move, thats why I bought a bridge to see if I used all the flexibility and I did so I made the switch.

I very rarely use the green square on my bridge. I want to be able to make choices about ISO and the like. I tend to stick to Program AE most of the time because though it does most things automatically I still have options. I tend not to use Aperture and Exposure modes because I didn't understand the need (I do now), but I certainly do put the camera in Manual if I have the time and want to make the effort to try and do something special. I'm not as good at that as I'd like to be, primarily because I'm not good enough but also because I struggle to read overlaid data - something I now know a DSLR will fix for good.

Yep, I look at the pics on TP and other places, try to replicate them and fail and I have good glass (not great glass) and a good camera. However the guys who are shooting planes and putting them up on TP have great glass, great skill and have put in many many hours of fine tuning. A dSLR will still give noise even a 5D will, and 90% of pics shot on RAW (if your not using this then IMHO you probably don't need an SLR) will need some post processing work to remove anomolies and boost the sharpness and colours.

All utterly understood. I do some basic post-processing even now and I know I'll have to do more. It's one of my failings that I don't give it enough time. In fact, I don't give any hobbies enough time and that's going to get sorted at some point. More play and less sitting in front of a computer (that works even with post-processing time).

It'll eat time and money

Too bloomin' right it will. As I've admitted myself, I don't 'get' the whole desire for spending thousands on glass yet, but I'm sure I will. Give it time.

When you hit a shot just right then its a great feeling, I find myself wanting to share my work with other people despite the fact its not very good, I want to spend hours post processinig and learning lightroom, I want people to tell me where I am going wrong on TP and here and offer C&C

I'm in two minds about this bit. I want to learn for sure, but I've posted stuff before that I thought was reasonable and had it ripped to shreds. The points were all valid but it didn't feel good. On the other hand, I want to learn and you don't do that by keeping everything to yourself, so I'll take the hit.

but sometimes I wish I could point a camera at a target pull the trigger and put the camera back in my pocket and walk away and do something else and if you think that you might ever want to do that then think twice before you spend a lot of money

I will want to do that - undoubtedly so. I suspect even seasoned pros wish for that. If I'm going somewhere and just want a camera on the offchance, I'll usually pack the compact, not the bridge, and I don't expect that to change. I certainly won't take a DSLR down the pub for example (yes, I know some do). I'm not a massive camera user, which is why I don't want to blow thousands on kit I'm likely to break out once or twice a month at best.

It's all about finding a balance - at some point in the future I'll want a new camera and if I can get a low-end DSLR and some half decent glass (one short, one long and maybe add another couple later) then I'll be happy at least for now. What happens later, I don't know.

You have raised some very serious points that I need to go away and think about. Maybe one way around the moneypit problem is to set a hard limit on budget. I can spend £x on cameras and accessories over the next two years and that's it (consumables like batteries and cards are allowable). I'd already stated elsewhere that I was looking at £1000-ish.

As I've said before, I'm very much a borderline case (or a basket case if you prefer ). I'm at the top end of the bridge camera user, but is that all I want to be? Probably not. I'm never, ever, going to be even serious amateur though, so where do I draw the line?

[Matblack]

Well if you've taken all that into account and you feel you can cope with using the viewfinder on a full time basis then go for it

MB

[Mark]

I loved the viewfinder on the 450D. Really got on well with that though it was only a quick play and I'm not yet 100% sure how I'd do with proper use. You don't spend all day looking down the viewfinder so it shouldn't be a problem.

I did make the mistake of having my finger near the focus ring while half-pressing the shutter. Won't be doing that again.

However, it's all on hold while I get a quote for fixing my roof (shouldn't be monstrous so I'm told) but it's looking likely I'll get a bonus at the end of next month so if the cash currently sitting in my bank account doesn't pay for it, that probably will.

(yes, I do still have a few small debts but they're in hand - three-year savings account matures in September so that'll mop up any dregs).

[LeperousDust]

MB you're posts make me want to get a DSLR even more, this really annoying because there isn't really a chpea entry to the market. But i'd faffing love to play around like you're describing there. Its me to a tee. One day in the future when i have monies i will definitely be experimenting with my camera skillz. For now happy snap shots of drunken friends keep me somewhat happen. As long as i'm able to adjust a few little settings which canon compacts are very well known for!

[Matblack]

If you want to play about and see if you will get on with a dSLR than I suggest you graduate to a bridge camera, a Fuji 6500fd can be had for less than £100 on Ebay I suspect and will allow you more flexibilty and a better zoom than you compact, if that works out you can sell it for £20 less than you bought it for and buy a Canon 350d and kit lens for less than £250 (guessing) and work up from there. I warn you though its addictive.

MB

[LeperousDust]

Sounds amazing, and i truly would but i don't really sensibly have the money to invest (even in £100 bridge as bad as that sounds). I mean i've got money but i can't justify it to myself just yet, need a bigger disposable income before i do...