Your faith...

[Flibster]

Originally Posted by phykell

We're just animals AFAIC, who just so happen to be more intelligent than the other animals on the planet... unfortunately for them.

We're a virus with shoes

Never really considered religion as as anything to me. I'm happy for other people to follow it - I just can't see any point.

Although, I have been involved in Remembrance Sunday Parades - as a general uniformed type, and a standard barer or escort *the escort was the best job - got to carry deactivated Lee Enfield .303's through the middle of a town while being dressed in full RAF no1's.

[Justsomebloke]

I've been debating whether & what to write since first reading this thread.
All I am prepared to say "Up" here is Don't discount the possibilty or deny yourself the warmth that Faith brings

[Lana]

The family I was born into is not Christian. My mom went to church as a kid and my dad didn't. My grandma still did, and she took me and my sister to church and sunday school when we were little teeny. I don't remember anything about it.

When I was about 10-12, I started searching for something. I grabbed my mom's bible from the living room shelf (it was kept there and never looked at) and read it in my room when I felt upset or when I felt like it. My family even made fun of me for it.

I like to say that I looked and looked, and God found me :-) I was about 16 when I really got the chance to talk to a friend about God and Jesus and it resonated with me. I knew something was missing and it felt like this was it.

I grew in it the older I got, started going to church, bible studies, the works. I even lived in a Church owned house while I was in University. I spent that time researching and really trying to understand what it is all about.

Then a friend of mine told me about Youth with a Mission. She said that it changed her life and showed her who God really was. I resisted because I wanted to go to graduate school and I figured I didn't have the time for it. But then I felt like, hey, I'll apply to both and let God make the decision for me (but hope He'll choose the one I want Him to).

Long story short, God spoke to me. I was feeling desolate because of a ruined relationship and He told me that it would never work if I didn't do it His way (I swear I am not crazy, God speaks and He does it with words I don't use). Part of doing it "His" way was going to England for a YWAM school, which I did. It changed my life.

All the details like how can he multiply bread or turn water to wine became just that....details. I got to know God. How cool is that? There is this God who I believe created everything, and He takes the time to let ME get to know HIM?!

There is so much crap out there and I am one of the first people to admit that the church has gotten things wrong. Seriously, badly wrong. Hymns are boring, people are judgemental, and we don't love each other the way we claim we do. But all the crap that has to do with church is because people are so darn dumb. We mess up something that should be beautiful.

I went on a mission trip to Albania. I prayed with my team and God told them things about me, and me things about them (which sounds silly, but when you pray for someone sometimes things just appear in your head that you don't know and when you ask, it's right). He told us things to do and places to go. Part of the whole deal was learning to follow what He said and stuff, so we ended up seeing amazing things and teams like this all over the world have some really trippy experiences (mine involved being chased down the street by a giant pig.....story for another time).

ANYWAY, I am sorry to go on so long. I think Religion as an institution is crappy, but I think God ROCKS! I have another story that is more recent that involves some pretty miraculous timing, but I've said enough for now.

Pheebs, I love hashing this stuff out. I second the Garp if you want to talk about stuff you hear, I'd love to talk with you!

[Briggykins]

So Pheebs, how did it go?

[Garp]

Originally Posted by Slinwagh

Dig away, I will admit that when it comes to religion I am very opinionated!

Okay.. this could be interesting. Apologies if you know any of this already I just want to make sure I cover the subject as effectively and concisely as possible. Be warned this may get a little dry in places. I hope not though. I really need to try and convert this to a teaching format and save it rather than keep regathering all the passages each time I end up discussing this with people. Takes a while to gather it all together All bible quotes will be from the New International Version unless I have a brain fart moment and accidentally select the wrong translation on biblegateway.com


In Genesis we get the character of Abram post Noah's Flood whom God decided to use to father a new nation, the Jews.
God made a covenant, a holy promise, with Abram, whom he renamed to Abraham (the name translates as "Father of Nations", whereas Abram means "Exalted Father")

From Genesis 17:

3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram [b] ; your name will be Abraham, [c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God."

9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

This was the second covenant God made with his people, the first being never to flood the planet again. However this was the first two-way one. God promised to make many nations come from Abraham and in return only asked that they keep him as their God, and they have the outward sign of the circumcision. As a sign of this promise God also provided Abraham who was 99 and his wife 90, with a new child.

A few chapters later (22) God asks Abraham to prove his dedication by sacrificing Isaac, which he stops at the last minute having been satisfied by Abraham's faith, and provided a Ram for the sacrifice instead (ch22:vs13).

At the time there was a culture of child sacrifice being acceptable to whatever deity you held to be true, and this is seen as a clear statement by God to step away from that act and replace it with animal sacrifice.

Fast forward a little bit and you get to Moses and the Exodus. Having brought them out of Egypt God provides them with the 10 commandments to live by and many rules.
Failure to abide by those rules and sin required a sacrifice to be made and very specific guidelines were laid out as to what was and what wasn't an acceptable sacrifice. The idea was you placed your hand on the sacrifice and the priest would bless it and your sins would be transferred to the animal which was then slaughtered upon the alter in a prescribed manor.
The animals that the Jews were required to sacrifice were so specifically described it required effort and sacrifice on their behalf to get the animal. The idea being, I guess, that the hassles would discourage them from sinning.

The relationship that was created there is fairly straight forward. Do as I tell you or suffer for it. It's the image of a God sitting on high throwing lightning bolts at sinners and writing names down on his list. It's a something for something relationship driven by slavish obedience.

And the Jews of the era really sucked at it. I mean, really, really sucked at it.

Whilst people may scoff at the religious aspect of it, there is considered to be sufficient collaborative material from other sources to corroborate the social and economic successes and failures described in the Old Testament. The Jewish nation had an incredible history of success and utter failure almost unparalleled by any other nation.

The theological claim of the OT is that every time they went away from God and did their own thing, everything fell apart on them and they'd often end up as a nation in captivity. When they eventually came back to him things would go incredibly well. The book of Judges contains 13 cycles of this, ending with Samson. A little while after Samson, King David enters the scene and the Jews become the most prosperous they ever had. David is described in the OT by God as a "man after my own heart" despite his regular spiritual failures. He was punished each time and still trusted in the Lord. Eventually God promises him through the prophet Nathan that the greatest King will come from his line:

Originally Posted by 2 Sam 7:11b-13

" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

So fast forward to 739-690 B.C and we have the prophet Isaiah on the scene. The initial chapters are about God's message to Ahaz and the nations relating to the Syrian-Israel Crisis, but then we move on to the Messianic Prophesies.

There are around 425 Messianic prophesies between the various books in the Bible, all of which Jesus fulfilled, but the significant majority of these are in the book of Isaiah. Don't worry I'm not about to go into them all, just ones relevant to the topic:

• Isaiah 7:14 talks about the Virgin Birth.
• 16:5 is about how he'll be descended from the line of David and come to reign "one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness"
• 37:31 re-emphasises that he will be descendant of the house of Judah (David's line).
• 49:6 and 41:1-4,6 cover how he'll be coming to bring the light to the Gentiles (non-Jews) "I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles" Note we're talking about another covenant here.

Then the final bit I want to reference from Isaiah:

Originally Posted by Isaiah 53

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

So we set the scene for the Crucifixion, for his sacrifice.

That particular prophesy is believed to have been made around 700 B.C.

Still with me so far? I hope so A quick little summary of what I've tried to establish so far:

• Sacrifice was the language of the relationship in old times between people and their deity. Child sacrifice was integral in that.
• God (Yahweh) altered that with his covenant with Abraham and through his descendants so that animals were sacrificed to pay for transgressions.
• The covenant establishes that he will look after his nations and people.
• Moses came along and God codified through him how they were to live and what was the appropriate reparation for sins and how it was to be done.
• David came along and led the nation to Glory and God promised to him through Nathan that the Kingdom of God will be fulfilled by his line.
• Isaiah came along and alongside other prophets like Micah, prophesies of the coming Messiah, born of David's line who will be sacrificed "for our transgressions"

So jump forward to Jesus and his sermon on the mount.

Originally Posted by Matthew 5

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

The Message translation puts it like this:

Originally Posted by Matthew 5:17-18

Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures— either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God's Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God's Law will be alive and working.

So here Jesus is, preaching on the mount about how he has come to fulfill the Old Testament law.

The imagery used to describe Jesus in the Messianic prophecies and the Gospels, where is is portrayed as the Lamb of God was very carefully phrased and meant to indicate that he was the sacrificial animal.
No matter how pure an animal was on earth it would only be good as a sacrifice offering of an individual, as laid out in God's Law.
Jesus was to sent as a sacrificial offering of God for the people. The purest, holiest, most spotless offering on our behalf, taking all of our sins upon him through his death on the cross and fulfilling the price of sin that had been established.

Okay, coming in to land here. All of the above is to lay the foundation for the passage that explains the direct point I was making in my previous post about not living by the rules out of necessity, but because we're compelled to do so by love.

Following passage is from Romans chapter 8. The emphasis is mine:

Originally Posted by Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

So there we have it, I hope clearly explained. I find verse 15 is the most pertinent of that passage for what we're discussing, that it's not obedience to fear that should be compelling us but a spirit of love

Hopefully the passages I've brought up should also have gone some way to explain the long established theological view:
All the Laws were fulfilled through Christ and no longer relevant unless specifically stated by Jesus, though we should be true to the spirit of the Law.

Included in the re-stated laws are the two great commandments:
1) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind.
2) Love your neighbour as yourself.

If you think about that in any detail you see that pretty much every good behaviour falls into the latter category and it neatly summarises both the 10 commandments and most of the old testament Law, pushing away from an overly legalistic "Holier than thou" position to a simple hard to struggle with concept. As John Lennon put it:

All you need is Love.

[Pheebs]

Originally Posted by Briggykins

So Pheebs, how did it go?

I may have missed it last night but am going next week instead. Was absolutely knackered I'm afraid.

Next week deffo though.

Thank you Garp and Lana for offering to chat with me if needs be

[Slinwagh]

Originally Posted by Garp

Snip

There is a fair bit to digest there, I will read through it again and the hopefully pick out some points to query.

However I personally have to question the accuracy of the Bible, is it not merely a collection of fictional stories passed down by world of mouth.

I do not see any evidence for God or Jesus. Take the virgin birth, at the absolute base level you need sperm to fertilise the egg, thus rendering the virgin birth impossible, there was no IVF etc back then. i would assume I am not to take the virgin birth literally, if that is the case does this not stand for the rest of the bible to?

I am not trying to belittle your faith so please do not take offence.

[Feek]

I think religion is a load of rubbish, words designed to give people hope. As an example, at my Dad's funeral recently the vicar gave a load of spiel about being taken into god's house blah bla bla blah and that he's not really gone, etc etc.

Well I know one thing. He died and his body was in the coffin that was less than three yards away from me. We're made up of a series of electrical impulses and once the heart stops beating and no oxygen gets to the brain, those impulses stop and that's the end of it. He's definately gone, those electrical impulses don't suddenly leave the body and migrate elsewhere. For a start, there's no conductor to allow them to be carried away.

Harsh? Maybe. Accurate? I'm sure it is. God? Meh.

[Haly]

Originally Posted by Feek

I think religion is a load of rubbish, words designed to give people hope. As an example, at my Dad's funeral recently the vicar gave a load of spiel about being taken into god's house blah bla bla blah and that he's not really gone, etc etc.

Well I know one thing. He died and his body was in the coffin that was less than three yards away from me. We're made up of a series of electrical impulses and once the heart stops beating and no oxygen gets to the brain, those impulses stop and that's the end of it. He's definately gone, those electrical impulses don't suddenly leave the body and migrate elsewhere. For a start, there's no conductor to allow them to be carried away.

Harsh? Maybe. Accurate? I'm sure it is. God? Meh.

Very similar to how I feel. I hate when people say 'Oh your Dad's gone to a better place' or 'He's still with you in spirit' etc, no he hasn't! Seen him die and his body, he's dead, simple as that. Again it might sound harsh but I hate when people say platitudes to try to avoid the truth.
Fortunately there was no vicar at the funeral but there was a humanist who imo was nearly as bad

[Pheebs]

Thing is... I agree with you when a person dies they're gone from the body entirely... but I've had so many experiences I just... I cannot explain... that are linked to people who have died or to people I know but haven't seen in a while. Also seen some pretty weird phenomenons in my life time, which, despite trying my best to figure out some scientific reason behind it... I just can't.

One thing weird that happened... which may have been completely coincidental happened over Christmas a few years back. In our kitchen there's a range oven and there's two ovens there. Very handy indeed... but ever since moving in the second oven has *never* worked. I'd played with it, cleaned it, tried lighting it with matches and nada. No gas no nothing. I would try flicking it on once every couple of weeks to see whether it would miraculously start working and it never did.

Christmas day came and it was a bit manic. I *needed* two ovens. I started to laugh throwing bits and bobs in and out of my one oven and thought "I'm gonna try the other oven again". I turned it on... nothing happened. As a "joke" I said out aloud "Seriously Nanny, if you're kicking around you wouldn't give me a hand would you?!" and literally the second I said that the oven turned on. Fan, gas, alight, everything.

I was like... "erm... no way... erm okay".

Coincidental? Maybe. I thought it through logically afterwards and tried to figure out whether I have asked lots before "if you're around can you help" type thing and I hadn't. The only time I used to talk to Nanny out aloud would be sitting on her grave and telling her what's been happening.

So that kind of... Just struck me as odd.

Other things like seeing weird auras, having some freaky deaky type "poltergeist" hanging around me as a kid... just makes me not dismiss an "afterlife". Though some of the time I debate whether it's just a recording... like ghost sitings. Somehow, like tapes and dvd's, has the image of a person been "caught" and "recorded" and only can be seen in certain conditions? I dunno. Maybe.

Odd.

Confused.com? I think so!