Child benefit to be scrapped for higher taxpayers

[Admiral Huddy]

The small PAYE + large dividend payment was not to avoid paying tax. It was to avoid paying both Employer and Employee NI which since the contractor and company are effectively the same things, because of auditing laws, the individual ended up paying both where as a normal employee would only pay one half..

As for the tax, the company paid the Tax Credit of 10% and you as in individual paid the shortfall on the personal tax. But again, since this is effectively from the same individual source, the correct amount of tax is applied. You paid your taxes in one way or another but not through PAYE.

What the IR felt was unfair, was the expenses which were offset.. IR35 stopped a lot of loop holes that did exist..

To be honest, so what...?? If the people on low income and benefits can cheat the system, then why can't people the other end of the scale.

My wife was telling me only last night, that an old school friend she know weighs over 28 stones and has been classed as disabled and receives incapacity benefit among other things. Her husband has given up work to be her full time carer and receives similar care benefits. .. yet they have 4 kids (one only 3 so obviously not that incapacitated) and 4 dogs!!' They play the system well.. and do it legally.. All paid for by the state..

Now tell me ..

How that is ******* fair on people how have worked hard most of their lives to get the qualifications and experience to get where they are. Most of these people have made huge sacrifices and gambles along the way.. Those that employ and bring work to others... only for some upstart to say " they earn more than us.. they should pay"!!!!

[Stan_Lite]

Originally Posted by Admiral Huddy

I would like to know why the people who NEED the benefit can still afford cigarettes, alcohol, and a full sky TV package. I'm not living with my head in the clouds here. Half of my wifes family are on benefits and what they get away with would make you cry.

I want to see reform right across the system. Encourage entrepreneurial individuals, reward hard workers... clamp down on layabout benefit scum that use the NEED to play the system!

I'm actually in agreement with most of the above to be honest (we'll never agree on the first bit so there's no point thrashing away at that argument again). I agree with what they've proposed so far but they haven't taken it far enough in my opinion.
As obtrusive and demeaning as it is, I feel most benefits should be means tested. There are far too many people on benefits who have better lifestyles than many people who work hard. I read an article in the Times on these proposals and another part of it was that benefits would be capped at £26k for a single household - apparently this will affect 50,000 households in the country. I find it absolutely shocking that so many people can get that amount of money from the welfare system without having to do any work at all. Only about 5% of the people I know earn more than that working full time.

The benefits system needs a damn good overhaul.

[Admiral Huddy]

Originally Posted by Stan_Lite

The benefits system needs a damn good overhaul.

This is all I'm saying Stan

If cuts are to be made then it has to be felt throughout. I'm quite happy to loss the benefit but it has to be fair on both ends of the spectrum. I don't like seeing my (or anyones for that matter) tax money being spent on peope who don't need it and this extends to standard rate payers too. As far as i'm concerned once it's gone they can't take it away again.

ha Years ago when I was contracting, when writing my cheques out the IR (apprantly we never paid tax ) I used to joke to my wife... "here you go.. might as well pay that straight to your family" but the ironic thing it wasn't far from the truth..

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Stan_Lite

I read an article in the Times on these proposals and another part of it was that benefits would be capped at £26k for a single household - apparently this will affect 50,000 households in the country.

That number is what's left after the cuts to CB, Housing Benefit, et. al. have all been applied. Do that same calculation today and the figure is several times larger. If you were shocked before, I dread to think what you are now.

And unfortunately Huddy, your 'disabled' school friend can carry on playing. SDA claimants are exempt from the £26k cap.

[Desmo]

Most peoples complaints about this have very little to do with the actual money side of things but far more about the perceived fairness. Those that pay in to the system are starting to get very pee'd off with those that just take. Keep things relatively fair and those paying in don't mind supporting those that can't but when the tables turn too far you'll start to hear complaints. It's not about greed and money, it's about the system being fair.

[Kitten]

You don't need to explain the tax situation to me, I do understand it already and it's largely redundant anyway - as I said it my have BEEN the way it was, however it ISN't now.

Originally Posted by Admiral Huddy

To be honest, so what...?? If the people on low income and benefits can cheat the system, then why can't people the other end of the scale.

and that quote there in my opinion sums up a large part of the problem. And you could have just said that instead of justifying the tax 'perks', because that's the real reason, isn't it?

"They do, so I will"

I'm still waiting for you to tell me how it's fair on me that I pay a large proportion of tax as do you but as I have no children, I get NOTHING back from the state whatsoever. You avoided that in the last thread (or more likely didn't have an answer that was fair in any way) and still haven't answered it now. You're still far better off than me as you at least get *SOMETHING* back from your 'investment' but I don't.

However, you don't see me complaining unless the 'please don't stop my free money' brigade start up. Agreed with Desmo completely, when it's fair and I can have some extra cash for my 'life choices' that I don't actually need but is nice to have, then I'll be happier.

Oh wait, that's not what welfare is about, is it?

[Matblack]

Originally Posted by Kitten

as I have no children, I get NOTHING back from the state whatsoever. You avoided that in the last thread (or more likely didn't have an answer that was fair in any way) and still haven't answered it now. You're still far better off than me as you at least get *SOMETHING* back from your 'investment' but I don't.

I'm not sure that you don't get anything back from the state whatsoever (I'm sure we all access the results of taxation in many diffferent ways and in some ways tax is a gamble, insuring you against your need to use faciliites at a later date) but I do understand what you mean.

In my view welfare handouts should be limited to those in need, as I stated earlier universal CB is a legacy benefit from WWII which is no longer relevent in our society, it's impact is scalable on parental income BUT joint parental income. If we judge just on one income this makes a sensible change into a mockery. Take it away and make it a benefit which needs to be applied for, the systems are in place for means testing and making this change alone will stop many from applying for it.

Originally Posted by huddy

To be honest, so what...?? If the people on low income and benefits can cheat the system, then why can't people the other end of the scale.

The benefits system in this country is open to abuse as is the tax system however to justify tax avoidence through benefits abuse is absurd. No one should be abusing the system but fidling taxes removes money from the system the shortfall of which is made up by the middle of society, whilst the systems remain in place for benefits abuse some rich bugger is cutting off my nose to spite some benefits abusers face and taking no pain themselves.

I believe in a system of benefits for the poor in part because you never know what is around the corner, there but for the grace of the redundancy axe it could be us signing on in a year and will cuts coming in the public sector it could well be me, I'd like to know that I have something to fall back on. That aside if you don't help the poor then their children suffer and they become the next generation of benefits abusers, better that they aspire and are given the tools to be tax payers.

So take it away and spend it on bettering the economy and later on improving the lot of children in areas of deprevation, create a child support benefit which is means tested and only available to those on low or no wages and reform the benefits system so that it can't be easily abused. But they won't because it will cost too much money to implement and when they are so penny pinching they won't come up with a solution which doesn't penalise a family earning £80k but will penalise a family earning £45k, because it is the cheapest way to implement it, don't hold your breath.

MB

[Stan_Lite]

Originally Posted by Matblack

In my view welfare handouts should be limited to those in need, as I stated earlier universal CB is a legacy benefit from WWII which is no longer relevent in our society, it's impact is scalable on parental income BUT joint parental income. If we judge just on one income this makes a sensible change into a mockery. Take it away and make it a benefit which needs to be applied for, the systems are in place for means testing and making this change alone will stop many from applying for it.



The benefits system in this country is open to abuse as is the tax system however to justify tax avoidence through benefits abuse is absurd. No one should be abusing the system but fidling taxes removes money from the system the shortfall of which is made up by the middle of society, whilst the systems remain in place for benefits abuse some rich bugger is cutting off my nose to spite some benefits abusers face and taking no pain themselves.

I believe in a system of benefits for the poor in part because you never know what is around the corner, there but for the grace of the redundancy axe it could be us signing on in a year and will cuts coming in the public sector it could well be me, I'd like to know that I have something to fall back on. That aside if you don't help the poor then their children suffer and they become the next generation of benefits abusers, better that they aspire and are given the tools to be tax payers.

So take it away and spend it on bettering the economy and later on improving the lot of children in areas of deprevation, create a child support benefit which is means tested and only available to those on low or no wages and reform the benefits system so that it can't be easily abused. But they won't because it will cost too much money to implement and when they are so penny pinching they won't come up with a solution which doesn't penalise a family earning £80k but will penalise a family earning £45k, because it is the cheapest way to implement it, don't hold your breath.

MB

This is what I wanted but failed miserably to say. In my defence, I was too intoxicated in my first post to articulate my thoughts properly and in a bit of a rush when making my second post. I would make a fresh attempt at it but it's easier just to quote MB's post. Since our politics are pretty much the same, I rarely disagree with anything he posts on the subject and the above quote pretty much sums up my position.

Thanks Matt

[Kitten]

Yep. Matt, agree with pretty much everything you said there.

[Lozza]

Originally Posted by Matblack

I believe in a system of benefits for the poor in part because you never know what is around the corner, there but for the grace of the redundancy axe it could be us signing on in a year and will cuts coming in the public sector it could well be me, I'd like to know that I have something to fall back on.

The sad thing is that by the time you were actually entitled to any kind of benefit.. once any savings/redundancy pay/assets are taken into account you'd have got your self a new job anyhow.

Housing benefit erks me along the same lines too... because you worked hard and put a deposit on a house and have a mortgage your only entitled to get the interest on your interest paid.. yet if you rent you get pretty much all of that paid. Even though rent can often be far more than a mortgage.