So sad

[Will]

Easily manslaughter in my eyes. You're over the limit and knowingly driving something with the potential to kill.

It's no different to getting drunk and fighting someone and killing them with a lucky punch or someone like me landing a punch.

Not quite pre-meditated in terms of wanting to kill, but very much premeditated in terms of knowingly doing it.

No the number I gave was the number SPECIFICALLY relating to deaths and sever injuries (i.e. brain damage, loss of limbs, paralysing etc...) The total amount of drink driving accidents are much bigger, and the proportion of overall accidents is taken up by a fair chunk by DD.

[AboveTheSalt]

Originally Posted by Will

Not quite true really..

On average over 13,000 people are killed or seriously injured each year in drink drive collisions. Nearly one in six of all deaths on the road involve drivers who are over the legal alcohol limit. 1 in 6 is very very high for the amount of cars we have on the road. It's not a nominal amount at all.

Alcohol has a HUGE effect on your driving ability no matter how you think you "feel".

I believe that in the last year for which figures are available, excessive speed was considered to be a contributory factor in 25% of fatal crashes.

I was not aware that RoSPA consider the speed limits in this country to be ridiculous, perhaps you know differently?

Speed has a HUGE effect on the likelihood of death in a serious accident.

[divine]

Originally Posted by Will

Easily manslaughter in my eyes. You're over the limit and knowingly driving something with the potential to kill.

It's no different to getting drunk and fighting someone and killing them with a lucky punch or someone like me landing a punch.

Not quite pre-meditated in terms of wanting to kill, but very much premeditated in terms of knowingly doing it.

No the number I gave was the number SPECIFICALLY relating to deaths and sever injuries (i.e. brain damage, loss of limbs, paralysing etc...) The total amount of drink driving accidents are much bigger, and the proportion of overall accidents is taken up by a fair chunk by DD.

See my edit, it may make what I was getting at clearer.

[Pebs]

Originally Posted by Will

It's no different to getting drunk and fighting someone and killing them with a lucky punch or someone like me landing a punch.

I disagree. Swinging a punch while drunk, you wouldnt expect to kill anyone. Getting in a tonnes worth of car while drunk, you're lucky if you dont kill someone. There are no grey areas with drink driving in my eyes, you're a mobile high speed killer. The sooner drink drive rules clamp down to no alcohol in the system the better.

[Will]

Oh I agree Pebs, I was just showing the contrast, but in both situations you're not expecting to kill someone but you have an increased chance of it in a car, despite still being able to do it whilst drunk. That was my point which you've reinforced and I completely agree with you.

[Will]

Originally Posted by AboveTheSalt

I believe that in the last year for which figures are available, excessive speed was considered to be a contributory factor in 25% of fatal crashes.

I was not aware that RoSPA consider the speed limits in this country to be ridiculous, perhaps you know differently?

Speed has a HUGE effect on the likelihood of death in a serious accident.

Excessive speed is different to going over the speed limit. 60mph along a single carriage way is the speed limit, but in the rain, it may well be excessive speed or the conditions. Just like doing 100mph on the motorway at 2am, with good visibility and a well maintained car is far safer than doing 30mph in a built up area or around a school. It's all relative.

I'm an IAM and have advanced riding certificate (motorbike) and they never bleat on about the speed limit, the key is excessive speed.

Look at germany, their motorways are unrestricted, yet they have over 40% less accidents on the motorways than we do. The reason being is a) they have to slow down at junctions/merge points, b) they have to pull in after overtaking c) they get castigated for tailgating. They have very strict rules and people obey them.

People in the UK on the whole do not know how to drive, they drive to close, rubber neck, have poor lane discipline, are bad at anticipating and do not leave any margin for error. I'm no driving god, but I do know how to handle a car within my limits and do so, unfortunately it may (and probably does) exceed other people's limitations and as such do not drive like that all the time, only when it's safe to do so.

People here have no idea on the dangers or the responsibilities of owning a car.

Speed does not kill - it's the idiot behind the wheel that does.

[Garp]

Originally Posted by Pebs

I disagree. Swinging a punch while drunk, you wouldnt expect to kill anyone. Getting in a tonnes worth of car while drunk, you're lucky if you dont kill someone. There are no grey areas with drink driving in my eyes, you're a mobile high speed killer. The sooner drink drive rules clamp down to no alcohol in the system the better.

Fully agree with you. In the US they have an offence called "Vehicular manslaughter" that I'm inclined to believe they should have here. I would almost be inclined to make it murder for drink driving. Someone has gone out and drunk when they knew they were going to drive, or has made a concious decision to drive when they know they've drunk. Given the extent of media coverage and education on the subject, they've deliberately got behind tonnes of killing machine in an unfit state. That implies pre-meditation in my mind.

Originally Posted by Will

Speed does not kill - it's the idiot behind the wheel that does.

First principle of safe driving: Everyone else on the road is an absolute idiot. Treat them as such.
Something like that anyway.

It would be great if everyone was able to accurately perceive the correct and safe speed for the road under the conditions at that time, sadly very few seem to be able to. Saw a nicely smashed Porsche on Sunday that had skidded in the rain on the A23 at who knows what speed. Must have been going well over 70mph given the amount of damage done, in the pouring rain, on a road surface that showed signs of fuel on the surface. I highly doubt anyone in that car got out alive.

[AboveTheSalt]

Originally Posted by Will

...
I'm an IAM and have advanced riding certificate (motorbike) and they never bleat on about the speed limit, the key is excessive speed.
...

As a matter of interest, do "they" encourage you to break the law?


To be honest, I object strongly to people who drink and drive. I also object to people who speed, who tailgate and who have no concept of lane discipline. I believe that people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers that the speed limit doesn't apply to them are no better than people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers and drink so regularly that alcohol doesn't impair their ability.

[Will]

No. But when overtaking you have to exceed the limit. They teach you to make safe progress, and by that it's utilising the ability of the car and the road visibility and surface the the best of their training.

I actively make the choice to break the speed limit. Whether it be by a little or double or triple - it's my call, but what makes me different is I take responsibility for my actions. Sometimes I even go underneath it!!!!

[Pebs]

Originally Posted by AboveTheSalt

As a matter of interest, do "they" encourage you to break the law?


To be honest, I object strongly to people who drink and drive. I also object to people who speed, who tailgate and who have no concept of lane discipline. I believe that people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers that the speed limit doesn't apply to them are no better than people who arrogantly insist that they are such good drivers and drink so regularly that alcohol doesn't impair their ability.

Agreed. It doesnt matter how 'good' a driver you are, not everyone is and you can't second guess other people. People are so self obsessed they can't allow an extra few minutes for a safer legal journey.