22nd October 2006

[Mark]

I think you demand too much from your Brit sci-fi.

It's not meant to be hollywood effects-laden and big-budget.

[petemc]

Originally Posted by Captain Indecisive

I think you demand too much from your Brit sci-fi.

It's not meant to be hollywood effects-laden and big-budget.

I do appreciate that but Angel, season 1, episode 2: Lonely Hearts.

Doyle receives a new vision that sends the group to the club scene. They soon learn they are looking for a serial killer who has been seeking his prey in D'Oblique, a local singles bar.

Its the same show. Even if you ignore the budget issue, the music wasn't as good, the location was Cardiff vs LA, and the writing just wasn't as snappy as Angel was either. It really did feel like a cheap knock off. Its still just a kids show with gratitous swearing and sex to make it seem like an adult show. Where as Angel always did feel a lot darker and more grown up than Buffy was through good storys, writing, direction and plot. All I ask from my scifi these days is that its character driven. Farscape, Angel, BSG, B5, Firefly, even Life on Mars had better writing and better character driven stories.

Edit: Haha. Davies: 'Buffy', 'Angel' inspired 'Torchwood'. Well duh.

"I first had the idea for the series while I was working on Casanova three or four years ago, before Doctor Who was even mentioned," said Davies. "I'd been watching shows like Buffy and Angel, and I'd said to [Torchwood executive producer] Julie Gardner - 'why don't we make a series like that?'"

Like that? Its a badly made remake!

[Dymetrie]

Originally Posted by petemc

I do appreciate that but Angel, season 1, episode 2: Lonely Hearts.

Remember this?

X-Files, Season 1, Episode 14: Genderbender

Not exactly the same as either Angel or Torchwood but certainly following a similar theme. A supernatural being stalking singles in clubs and bars. Saying that the Alien being possessing a woman from Cardiiff and feeding on the sexual energy of it's prey isn't exactly the same as a parasitic demon hunting singles in a bar to possess their bodies leaving its previous host as an eviscerated shell.

Originally Posted by petemc

Its the same show. Even if you ignore the budget issue, the music wasn't as good, the location was Cardiff vs LA, and the writing just wasn't as snappy as Angel was either. It really did feel like a cheap knock off. Its still just a kids show with gratitous swearing and sex to make it seem like an adult show. Where as Angel always did feel a lot darker and more grown up than Buffy was through good storys, writing, direction and plot. All I ask from my scifi these days is that its character driven. Farscape, Angel, BSG, B5, Firefly, even Life on Mars had better writing and better character driven stories.

I agree that it doesn't feel quite the same, but then again it was hardly likely to. Angel was spawned after a feature film and 3 seasons of Buffy where the leading character was a major character in the original series. So far this incarnation of Doctor Who has had 2 seasons and the main character for the spin off only featured in a few (3?) episodes of the first season. British Sci-Fi is only just getting back onto its feet and starting to churn out good shows. And they have to churn out good shows because they don't have the ridiculous budgets available in the states to make 1 good series for every 10 that are a pile of rubbish.

Originally Posted by petemc

Edit: Haha. Davies: 'Buffy', 'Angel' inspired 'Torchwood'. Well duh.

Like that? Its a badly made remake!

Many years ago I read Danse Macabre by Stephen King. This was his history of horror where he explored the origins and themes of horror from the first writings to the current (well current at the time of writing) horror novels, TV and film. In this thesis he explained that there were only three types of horror story. I don't remember exactly what they were but I believe they were: the creature, the fiend and the place (I could be wrong). These three themes prevailed throughout all horror from classic to modern and despite the diferences in the stories they all fell back to these themes.

Is it completely unreasonable to transpose King's 3 themes from horror to other genres such as sci-fi, drama, thriller? If we accept that it is then there are only so many different stories available and it is only the settings, chracterisations and the journey from the start to the end.

What I'm trying to say is that OK, you don't like it, but you're basing your dislike on 2 episodes of a series which hasn't got the same amount of money behind it, or the history (although the history of Doctor Who is immense this is a serious leap away from it), or the expnedability that many US Sci-Fi shows have, and is trying to be revolutionary compared to most other BBC productions..

[petemc]

Originally Posted by dymetrie

Remember this?

X-Files, Season 1, Episode 14: Genderbender

Not exactly the same as either Angel or Torchwood but certainly following a similar theme. A supernatural being stalking singles in clubs and bars. Saying that the Alien being possessing a woman from Cardiiff and feeding on the sexual energy of it's prey isn't exactly the same as a parasitic demon hunting singles in a bar to possess their bodies leaving its previous host as an eviscerated shell.

Exactly. Its been done to death. X-Files, Angel, Species... Do something new!

I agree that it doesn't feel quite the same, but then again it was hardly likely to. Angel was spawned after a feature film and 3 seasons of Buffy where the leading character was a major character in the original series. So far this incarnation of Doctor Who has had 2 seasons and the main character for he spin off only featured in a few (3?) episodes of the first season. British Sci-Fi is only just getting back onto its feet and starting to churn out good shows. And they have to churn out good shos because they don't have the ridiculous budgets available in the states to make 1 good series for every 10 that are a pile of rubbish.

I don't buy that logic at all. I've started watching Heroes recently which has been fantastic from ep 1. Its only on ep5. Its just come out of nowhere. The same with the new Battlestar series. They just hit the ground running and don't let up. Screw all the money talk, these shows are just better written plain and simple.

If we accept that it is then there are only so many different stories available and it is only the settings, chracterisations and the journey from the start to the end.

Yeah but to publically say "I liked Angel" and then make episode 2 of your show an exact copy of Angel ep2 is a little more than just a little dumb. Take a season 4 episode or one from another show if you *really* have to. Don't be so bloody blatent.

What I'm trying to say is that OK, you don't like it, but you're basing your dislike on 2 episodes of a series which hasn't got the same amount of money behind it, or the history (although the history of Doctor Who is immense this is a serious leap away from it), or the expnedability that many US Sci-Fi shows have, and is trying to be revolutionary compared to most other BBC productions..

Shows don't need a great history behind them. As I said I watched Heroes and after the first I was hooked. Brand new show not based on any previous shows. Boom, good story, hooked. Hell, even Life on Mars was vastly superior and thats British and by the BBC. Did it have a huge budget, I don't now. I do know that the writing was excellent and that it was actually for adults rather than being a kids show with gratuitous sex and swearing. "See its for adults cos he just swore while shagging someone." Lastly, wtf was all the standing on rooftops for? Nothing! "Oh they did it Angel, lets do it in Tourchwood." Gah! Its just soooo sickening.

[Mark]

From what I've heard, Heroes isn't what you'd call true sci-fi. BSG, B5, and to some extent Angel and X-files are much more long-term character development based, so much more involving.

The new Doctor Who (unlike the old), and also Torchwood, seem to be taking the Star Trek style approach. One, two, maybe three at most episode storylines that you can dip and out of as you see fit. They're much more aimed for entertainment than for gripping storylines.

Argueing that one series copies the ideas from another is moot. All of the Trek-style shows do that to varying degrees. There are only so many variations on a theme, so it's pretty likely these days that if you come up with a story, someone else already did something similar before you. This is, in large part, why the later Trek shows got more and more contrived. It's unavoidable.

If it's not your thing, fair enough, just say so. I have no argument with that. It's personal choice.

[petemc]

Theres a difference I think between being inspired by something and doing your own take on something, like the remake of BSG, and saying you like something and doing a bad copy of it. The most recent ep of BSG was simply *THE* best thing on TV since B5: Severed Dreams. It was simply incredibly directed. I'm still riding the high from watching it. Just mind blowing.

Imho Tourchwood is just bad. The tacky Range Rover, the silly aerial shots, showing a guy ****ing, the lesbian kissing, etc. It just feels so eugh, so amatuerish. Why is it that the Americans can get things right and we can't? I think a lot of scifi fans these days are really enjoying gripping storylines with seasonal arcs. Even Star Trek bended and the last few seasons of DS9 were done that way. You can do more with your characters over a year than an episode. Basically I'm just really disappointed. The last season of Dr Who had some fantastic episodes and the idea of a darker, more grown up version sounded great. Its just such a shame. The BBC can do shows like Hustle, Life on Mars, Spooks and things why can't they get this right?

[Stan_Lite]

It's on BBC2 now if anybody missed it first time round.

Stan

[Dymetrie]

Originally Posted by Captain Indecisive

Argueing that one series copies the ideas from another is moot. All of the Trek-style shows do that to varying degrees.

This is partly what I was trying to get at with my previous post, although I must say that I agree with:

Originally Posted by petemc

Yeah but to publically say "I liked Angel" and then make episode 2 of your show an exact copy of Angel ep2 is a little more than just a little dumb.

however as you yourself proved then even by the time Whedon did it in Angel it already had at least 2 recent incarnations

Originally Posted by Captain Indecisive

If it's not your thing, fair enough, just say so. I have no argument with that. It's personal choice.

Very true, I stated this in my earlier post but the Captain has said it more eloquently than me

Originally Posted by petemc

Theres a difference I think between being inspired by something and doing your own take on something, like the remake of BSG, and saying you like something and doing a bad copy of it. The most recent ep of BSG was simply *THE* best thing on TV since B5: Severed Dreams. It was simply incredibly directed. I'm still riding the high from watching it. Just mind blowing.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I watched the first season of the new BSG and enjoyed it, however due to some turmoil I've managed to miss most of the second which I am somewhat perturbed about and am sure I will watch it at some time in the future. B5 I never managed to get into but do enjoy when I see it.

Do you wonder why US sci-fi is so much better than Uk sci-fi? And no I don't mean the budget. How many sci-fi shows from the last 20 years you can think of. Then think about how many of them were British and how many American. Then think about how many of them were good.

This works well with sci-fi films as well. There have been literally thousands of sci-fi movies released in the past year, I guarantee the vast majority of them were American and that the vast majority of them were rubbish. This is what the US has over the UK. Volume. They can happily produce hundreds of bad movies and tv shows (not just sci-fi) and they don't care because if even one of that hundred makes money then they're doing well. They have the money to cover it and when they get given something good then they'll do their damnest to capitalise on it.

Taking BSG as an example. The original series was tacky and cheesy. When the remake pilot occured then the production company pumped a good deal of money into it (probably on a par with the amount of money which was pumped into the first new season of Doctor Who). And guess what, they got it right! If they hadn't then they would've thought of something else to do, but because it was popular and merited more then they're pumped more money into it and luckily have managed to perpetuate, and improve on, the good start.

They had the opportunity to take the risk and luckily for them (and us) it worked. The BBC doesn't have this option. It must market to the masses as if it doesn't it spawns debates about what we pay our licence fee for. However in my opinion then they have made a good begining with Torchwood which they will hopefully improve on even more. This will be immediately obvious on sunday when the viewing figures for the third episode come in.

Originally Posted by petemc

Imho Tourchwood is just bad. The tacky Range Rover, the silly aerial shots, showing a guy ****ing, the lesbian kissing, etc. It just feels so eugh, so amatuerish. Why is it that the Americans can get things right and we can't?

I'm not going to say that your opinion is wrong as it is your opinion and to some extent I can agree with it. Yes the Range Rover is a bit tacky, but what would you have them drive? A Ford Anglia? Or a Cylon Raider ().

Everything does aerial shots these days and Imo I think this may be something to do with the main character. We've already found out that he 'can't die' and that the last trace of 'Captain Jack Harkness' was from the second world war. Maybe his love of high places is a mixture of these, he could have been a pilot during the war and combining that with his inability to die he may be testing his 'fear of death'. I don't know, I'm just speculating...

The ****ing, the lesbian kissing, another device to open up the interest in the show (admittedly to the lowest common denominator) maybe?

It may seem amateurish and you may feel that the americans can get it right when we can't but you have to remember that we don't have the span of experience that they have in producing or even writing this kind of stuff.

Originally Posted by petemc

I think a lot of scifi fans these days are really enjoying gripping storylines with seasonal arcs. Even Star Trek bended and the last few seasons of DS9 were done that way. You can do more with your characters over a year than an episode.

I agree with you entirely. And the day that a British production company has the interest and ability to do this kind of thing (in anything other than a soap) then we may well be in for a surprise. The British TV and Film industry is merely a minnow compared to the shark of the US and unfortunately a lot of British talent is tempted to head 'over the pond'.

Originally Posted by petemc

Basically I'm just really disappointed. The last season of Dr Who had some fantastic episodes and the idea of a darker, more grown up version sounded great. Its just such a shame. The BBC can do shows like Hustle, Life on Mars, Spooks and things why can't they get this right?

Practice and time are the only things you can hope for here. This is a fairly new genre for the BBC to be tackling on anything other than a cult scale but hopefully they'll be able to get the hang of it and get better.

Anyway, I think I may have gone slightly off topic so the only thing left for me to say is...

Originally Posted by Bijstan

It's on BBC2 now if anybody missed it first time round.

Stan

[petemc]

Originally Posted by dymetrie

however as you yourself proved then even by the time Whedon did it in Angel it already had at least 2 recent incarnations

But at least it wasn't cheesy

Do you wonder why US sci-fi is so much better than Uk sci-fi? And no I don't mean the budget. How many sci-fi shows from the last 20 years you can think of. Then think about how many of them were British and how many American. Then think about how many of them were good.

Quantum Leap, BSG, Farscape, B5, DS9, TNG, X-Files, Angel, Buffy, Stargate, Firefly. Most of them were great due to character driven plots which comes from good writing most of all.

Taking BSG as an example. The original series was tacky and cheesy. When the remake pilot occured then the production company pumped a good deal of money into it (probably on a par with the amount of money which was pumped into the first new season of Doctor Who). And guess what, they got it right! If they hadn't then they would've thought of something else to do, but because it was popular and merited more then they're pumped more money into it and luckily have managed to perpetuate, and improve on, the good start.

They had the opportunity to take the risk and luckily for them (and us) it worked. The BBC doesn't have this option. It must market to the masses as if it doesn't it spawns debates about what we pay our licence fee for. However in my opinion then they have made a good begining with Torchwood which they will hopefully improve on even more. This will be immediately obvious on sunday when the viewing figures for the third episode come in.

The biggest issue with Tourchwood wasn't the money, it was the writing. That is where US shows and UK shows succeed. 24, Hustle, Farscape, Life on Mars all succeed due to good writing. B5 was done on a shoe string budget and the revolutionised television. The first show to do 16:9 format. The first show to use CG fx instead of models. The first show to have a 5 year story arc.

I'm not going to say that your opinion is wrong as it is your opinion and to some extent I can agree with it. Yes the Range Rover is a bit tacky, but what would you have them drive? A Ford Anglia? Or a Cylon Raider ().

The Range Rover wasn't tacky. Adding neons and a body kit to it WAS tacky. Why couldn't they drive a normal Range Rover, or a sports model? They look fine. Why did they have to cheesy it up with cliched props to make it look "Scifi"? Simply because they just don't get real Scifi imho.

Everything does aerial shots these days and Imo I think this may be something to do with the main character. We've already found out that he 'can't die' and that the last trace of 'Captain Jack Harkness' was from the second world war. Maybe his love of high places is a mixture of these, he could have been a pilot during the war and combining that with his inability to die he may be testing his 'fear of death'. I don't know, I'm just speculating...

I'd say clutching at straws RTD has already admitted that the show is based on Angel and he's clearly reproducing the scenes from that show, except they just don't work.

It may seem amateurish and you may feel that the americans can get it right when we can't but you have to remember that we don't have the span of experience that they have in producing or even writing this kind of stuff.

Yet we did Life on Mars. True it was more drama than scifi but if you watch BSG or B5 they are more drama than scifi these days. They know that its the characters that people care about not the technobabble.

I accept its new and I accept that we don't do scifi much but when we do scifi its always the same cheesy stuff, which works for Dr Who and Red Dwarf but if you're trying to do a dark show like Angel don't copy/paste it and do a bad job and don't then admit that its based on Angel either Firefly was brilliant because Joss Whedon knew about scifi and he knew people had seen it all before. So what did he do? He gave the opposite answer to every cliche in the book and the show worked so well.

Mal: [angrily] Do you want to run this ship?
Jayne: Yes!
Mal: Well… you can't!

In every other show where the captain says "Do you wanna run this ship?" people know he's the captain and he means business so you back down. In Firefly who cares and its just brilliant because of that. Thats what a good director/writer does. Takes something and puts their spin on it and makes it better. At the moment I'm not seeing the "making it better" part in Torchwood, hopefully I'll be proven wrong but as long as the most secret organisation in the world drives a Range Rover with fraking neons on it, I can't see it happening

[Mark]

One line summary: Pete doesn't like it.

It is cheesy, it is British (or Welsh). If that's not your bag, so be it. I'll not be coming to barge down your door over it. It's just a TV show.

/attempts to save thread from sucking itself into a quantum singularity.