Your faith... - Page 6

Desmo · 12-03-2009, 13:13

This is breaking in to two discussions that I see as very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all.

Slinwagh · 12-03-2009, 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desmo

This is breaking in to two discussions that I see are very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all.

I agree but it is interesting that people who believe in God also believe in the afterlife and paranormal.

Pheebs · 12-03-2009, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desmo

This is breaking in to two discussions that I see as very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all.

Oops. I think that's my fault

I was meaning to link stuff to an afterlife/heaven/hell/purgatory type thing!!

Lots of talk of when you die you just... no longer exist any more... kind of wanted to see what peoples opinions were on that as I know many people who have some form of faith *do* believe in an afterlife

iCraig · 12-03-2009, 13:41

Part of the reason it's difficult to believe in the spirit world etc, is because, that assumes that our spirit/soul is not exclusive to the physical brain, e.g. synapsis, chemical reaction. That our spirit is a seperate entity to that, with the ability to transfer to a different dimension/universe unlike our own. But, that contradicts the simple physical act of brain damage. Remove/damage certain parts of our brain and person changes. Personalities can alter, sometimes with such severity, they essentially become a different person. Quite odd to happen, if our soul is above all of that.

Belmit · 12-03-2009, 20:09

We're looking from a biased viewpoint though. As the lottery winners of the universe there's an entire 'rest of the universe' of spent tickets out there.. but someone has to win if all the combinations are drawn. Yes, the chances are slim but our numbers came up.

Matblack · 12-03-2009, 20:23

Here is my take;

Religions came about at times when it was important to control people, people are not easily controlled but the one thing which brings them into line is uncertainty, the biggest uncertainty is what happens when they die, it scares people rigid because we are by nature a very possessive animal and we don't want to lose everything. You tell people if they are good little people that they can live forever and they will clamber over hot coals, tear their flesh and strap bombs to themselves and kill hundreds of people. Because fundamentally they are scared.

At certain times in history there have been teachers who realised this, maybe they believed some of what had come before because they had faith, maybe they saw the potential power they could gain and started from scratch, some of the them may even have believed they were special. In the main they did good things, used stories and parables to encourage people to live good lives (some not so much).

If you look at something like the Heavens Gate Cult or even the German people circa 1930 you can see that however smart people think they are they can still be taken in by individuals with exceptional personalities, you get enough of a following and you've got a religion, if its easy to follow and people are scared enough to believe it then it will snowball.

If you look at many religious texts there's some bloody sensible stuff, stuff which is engineered to make people better, to encourage them not to kill one another, not to interbreed even the whole stop buggering one another and don't eat shellfish stuff is understandable. If for example your tribe is dying out you probably don't want blokes partnering off and not breeding and in a hot country with no fridges shellfish is gonna kill you, why not tell people its bad by writing it in a book?

This does not prove the existence of a higher power, it proves that people will do the funniest stuff if you promise them something special and that's no bad thing, unless....... you allow the message to become distorted, you have religious leaders who are happy to 'give it a little tweak' at times of crisis, who are known to hide relevent texts (I'm looking at you Catholics) who are greedy for money or power or land and suddenly realise that they have an army of millions who could if you tell them that you've seen the Virgin Mary on a toilet roll invade your neighbors and bring you lots of booty. They write in these little clauses and people add them to the doctrine.

If you look at all the major religions they have a few common roots; be nice, try not to kill each other, treat the earth with respect anything on top of that in my opinion is unnecessary.

Here is what I 'believe'

If you have an infinite amount of time then something weird is going to happen (like a bloody big bang) if you leave that for a bloody long time then something weird is going to happen (like life) yeah its a one in a trillion chance but give it a few trillions and it will happen, if you then leave that for a bloody long time then eventually you'll get something intelligent enough to make up a special story to justify its own existence, give that a while and it will probably come up with something a bit more plausible after it invents the microscope and computers and Diet Coke.

I do believe that there is a higher power (this is not sarcasm).

By default the universe is a life force but its sentience is to comprehensible to us, it grinds its way towards a conclusion. Like a human is made of cells the universe is made of worlds many of which will have life, and it molds itself. As tiny parts of that we effect its fate, what we do has an impact, if you are the best you can be during your limited span then your deeds will have an impact on the future however small. But in my opinion, however great you are you'd better revel in the moment because you aint getting a pair of wings and a grandstand seat

[This has been a train of thought production, if it doesn't make sense to anyone but me I don't really care

]

MB

Chuckles · 12-03-2009, 20:32

Very well thought out post. I agree with it all, apart from the last paragraph

It's very similar to Nietzsche's take on the master/slave mentality.

Chuckles · 13-03-2009, 16:08

Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?

iCraig · 13-03-2009, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?

Shakespeare's works. Monkeys. Typewriters.

phykell · 14-03-2009, 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?

If you are willing to have faith that time is an immutable dimension that travels in one direction only and cannot be bound.

Time and space are intertwined and as the Universe's expansion has been observed, that implies that there are mathematical boundaries to space, and, correspondingly, time itself. It could be that space and time actually curve back towards each other like the two dimensions on a TV screen. Do you remember those games (e.g. Asteroids) where the player missiles would "wrap"? To the sprite on the screen, it could travel forever in any single direction - effectively infinity. Meanwhile, another creature could watch it pass across an area bounded by what it perceives as a physical dimension with a defined boundary.

Who's to say that we ourselves aren't being observed by creatures who can perceive the unseen, unknowable boundaries we are actually subject to?

12-03-2009, 13:13	#1
Desmo The Last Airbender Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pigmopad Posts: 11,915	This is breaking in to two discussions that I see as very different. The afterlife, paranormal things, ghosts, whatever you call it is something I believe. But I have no belief in religions. To me, the two aren't linked at all. __________________

12-03-2009, 13:41	#4
iCraig iCustom User Title Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,250	Part of the reason it's difficult to believe in the spirit world etc, is because, that assumes that our spirit/soul is not exclusive to the physical brain, e.g. synapsis, chemical reaction. That our spirit is a seperate entity to that, with the ability to transfer to a different dimension/universe unlike our own. But, that contradicts the simple physical act of brain damage. Remove/damage certain parts of our brain and person changes. Personalities can alter, sometimes with such severity, they essentially become a different person. Quite odd to happen, if our soul is above all of that. __________________

12-03-2009, 20:09	#5
Belmit The Mouse King of Denmark Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: The Winchester Posts: 6,476	We're looking from a biased viewpoint though. As the lottery winners of the universe there's an entire 'rest of the universe' of spent tickets out there.. but someone has to win if all the combinations are drawn. Yes, the chances are slim but our numbers came up. __________________

12-03-2009, 20:23	#6
Matblack Baby Bore Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Svalbard Posts: 9,770	Here is my take; Religions came about at times when it was important to control people, people are not easily controlled but the one thing which brings them into line is uncertainty, the biggest uncertainty is what happens when they die, it scares people rigid because we are by nature a very possessive animal and we don't want to lose everything. You tell people if they are good little people that they can live forever and they will clamber over hot coals, tear their flesh and strap bombs to themselves and kill hundreds of people. Because fundamentally they are scared. At certain times in history there have been teachers who realised this, maybe they believed some of what had come before because they had faith, maybe they saw the potential power they could gain and started from scratch, some of the them may even have believed they were special. In the main they did good things, used stories and parables to encourage people to live good lives (some not so much). If you look at something like the Heavens Gate Cult or even the German people circa 1930 you can see that however smart people think they are they can still be taken in by individuals with exceptional personalities, you get enough of a following and you've got a religion, if its easy to follow and people are scared enough to believe it then it will snowball. If you look at many religious texts there's some bloody sensible stuff, stuff which is engineered to make people better, to encourage them not to kill one another, not to interbreed even the whole stop buggering one another and don't eat shellfish stuff is understandable. If for example your tribe is dying out you probably don't want blokes partnering off and not breeding and in a hot country with no fridges shellfish is gonna kill you, why not tell people its bad by writing it in a book? This does not prove the existence of a higher power, it proves that people will do the funniest stuff if you promise them something special and that's no bad thing, unless....... you allow the message to become distorted, you have religious leaders who are happy to 'give it a little tweak' at times of crisis, who are known to hide relevent texts (I'm looking at you Catholics) who are greedy for money or power or land and suddenly realise that they have an army of millions who could if you tell them that you've seen the Virgin Mary on a toilet roll invade your neighbors and bring you lots of booty. They write in these little clauses and people add them to the doctrine. If you look at all the major religions they have a few common roots; be nice, try not to kill each other, treat the earth with respect anything on top of that in my opinion is unnecessary. Here is what I 'believe' If you have an infinite amount of time then something weird is going to happen (like a bloody big bang) if you leave that for a bloody long time then something weird is going to happen (like life) yeah its a one in a trillion chance but give it a few trillions and it will happen, if you then leave that for a bloody long time then eventually you'll get something intelligent enough to make up a special story to justify its own existence, give that a while and it will probably come up with something a bit more plausible after it invents the microscope and computers and Diet Coke. I do believe that there is a higher power (this is not sarcasm). By default the universe is a life force but its sentience is to comprehensible to us, it grinds its way towards a conclusion. Like a human is made of cells the universe is made of worlds many of which will have life, and it molds itself. As tiny parts of that we effect its fate, what we do has an impact, if you are the best you can be during your limited span then your deeds will have an impact on the future however small. But in my opinion, however great you are you'd better revel in the moment because you aint getting a pair of wings and a grandstand seat [This has been a train of thought production, if it doesn't make sense to anyone but me I don't really care ] MB __________________ "we had roots that grew towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom had fallen from our branches we found that we were one tree and not two"

12-03-2009, 20:32	#7
Chuckles '09 sexual conquests: 4.5 Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,075	Very well thought out post. I agree with it all, apart from the last paragraph It's very similar to Nietzsche's take on the master/slave mentality. __________________

13-03-2009, 16:08	#8
Chuckles '09 sexual conquests: 4.5 Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,075	Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one? __________________