Your faith... - Page 7

Slinwagh · 12-03-2009, 20:18

Where did "God" come from?

Chuckles · 12-03-2009, 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garp

You choose to believe that the trillion to one chance of precisely the right amount of energy being present to cause the big bang and not result in either matter flying apart too fast for cohesion, or just all collapsing in on itself because it didn't fly away fast enough?

That not only did we get just the right amount of energy causing the big bang, enough of the relevant matter combined in the right quantities to create the massive nuclear fission reaction that is the sun.

That not only did the sun form in an appropriate matter, but the right amount of matter came together at a suitable distance from the sun to be able to form a stable orbit.

That not only did the matter come together there it was of an appropriate composition to create the relevant primordial soup and gasses essential to the sustenance of life?

That not only did life get created, but it grew to be capable of sentience?

That not only did this all occur, but it was by complete "chance"?

And you say I have faith?

There is more logic in that than believing in something that doesn't have a shred of evidence.

Matblack · 12-03-2009, 20:23

Here is my take;

Religions came about at times when it was important to control people, people are not easily controlled but the one thing which brings them into line is uncertainty, the biggest uncertainty is what happens when they die, it scares people rigid because we are by nature a very possessive animal and we don't want to lose everything. You tell people if they are good little people that they can live forever and they will clamber over hot coals, tear their flesh and strap bombs to themselves and kill hundreds of people. Because fundamentally they are scared.

At certain times in history there have been teachers who realised this, maybe they believed some of what had come before because they had faith, maybe they saw the potential power they could gain and started from scratch, some of the them may even have believed they were special. In the main they did good things, used stories and parables to encourage people to live good lives (some not so much).

If you look at something like the Heavens Gate Cult or even the German people circa 1930 you can see that however smart people think they are they can still be taken in by individuals with exceptional personalities, you get enough of a following and you've got a religion, if its easy to follow and people are scared enough to believe it then it will snowball.

If you look at many religious texts there's some bloody sensible stuff, stuff which is engineered to make people better, to encourage them not to kill one another, not to interbreed even the whole stop buggering one another and don't eat shellfish stuff is understandable. If for example your tribe is dying out you probably don't want blokes partnering off and not breeding and in a hot country with no fridges shellfish is gonna kill you, why not tell people its bad by writing it in a book?

This does not prove the existence of a higher power, it proves that people will do the funniest stuff if you promise them something special and that's no bad thing, unless....... you allow the message to become distorted, you have religious leaders who are happy to 'give it a little tweak' at times of crisis, who are known to hide relevent texts (I'm looking at you Catholics) who are greedy for money or power or land and suddenly realise that they have an army of millions who could if you tell them that you've seen the Virgin Mary on a toilet roll invade your neighbors and bring you lots of booty. They write in these little clauses and people add them to the doctrine.

If you look at all the major religions they have a few common roots; be nice, try not to kill each other, treat the earth with respect anything on top of that in my opinion is unnecessary.

Here is what I 'believe'

If you have an infinite amount of time then something weird is going to happen (like a bloody big bang) if you leave that for a bloody long time then something weird is going to happen (like life) yeah its a one in a trillion chance but give it a few trillions and it will happen, if you then leave that for a bloody long time then eventually you'll get something intelligent enough to make up a special story to justify its own existence, give that a while and it will probably come up with something a bit more plausible after it invents the microscope and computers and Diet Coke.

I do believe that there is a higher power (this is not sarcasm).

By default the universe is a life force but its sentience is to comprehensible to us, it grinds its way towards a conclusion. Like a human is made of cells the universe is made of worlds many of which will have life, and it molds itself. As tiny parts of that we effect its fate, what we do has an impact, if you are the best you can be during your limited span then your deeds will have an impact on the future however small. But in my opinion, however great you are you'd better revel in the moment because you aint getting a pair of wings and a grandstand seat

[This has been a train of thought production, if it doesn't make sense to anyone but me I don't really care

]

MB

Chuckles · 12-03-2009, 20:32

Very well thought out post. I agree with it all, apart from the last paragraph

It's very similar to Nietzsche's take on the master/slave mentality.

Rich_L · 13-03-2009, 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

There is more logic in that than believing in something that doesn't have a shred of evidence.

Indeed, wonder how many times in the Universe it hasn't happened, not that anyone would be aware of the various guises of 'non-existence' of course. I.e. who knows how many times it didn't work before the Big Bang finally happened? A near-infinite amount of time or a picosecond, could be anywhere in between!

Infitessimal probability x Infinite number of events = Something 'impossible' happens, somewhere.

We're the 'lucky' ones in a trillion, woo go us. It's not fate, or the work of a divine architect IMO, it's just simple chance. We exist because we are that little chance, if we weren't, we wouldn't know about it because we wouldn't exist.

Chuckles · 13-03-2009, 16:08

Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?

iCraig · 13-03-2009, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?

Shakespeare's works. Monkeys. Typewriters.

phykell · 14-03-2009, 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one?

If you are willing to have faith that time is an immutable dimension that travels in one direction only and cannot be bound.

Time and space are intertwined and as the Universe's expansion has been observed, that implies that there are mathematical boundaries to space, and, correspondingly, time itself. It could be that space and time actually curve back towards each other like the two dimensions on a TV screen. Do you remember those games (e.g. Asteroids) where the player missiles would "wrap"? To the sprite on the screen, it could travel forever in any single direction - effectively infinity. Meanwhile, another creature could watch it pass across an area bounded by what it perceives as a physical dimension with a defined boundary.

Who's to say that we ourselves aren't being observed by creatures who can perceive the unseen, unknowable boundaries we are actually subject to?

semi-pro waster · 14-03-2009, 11:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matblack

This sums it up pretty nicely for me

[youtube]bBUc_kATGgg[youtube]

MB

You're quite a Tim Minchin fan aren't you? Very nicely done though.

Personally I'm sitting somewhere in the apathetic agnostic camp, I can't prove or disprove the existence of a god or any higher power and quite frankly I don't care enough to try to because it impacts on my life not one jot. My ideal in this is for people to believe in whatever they want but to allow others the same right and not to persecute or negatively impact on people because of their beliefs - this does lead to some issues in defining what is a negative impact etc but it is about the best I can do with an all-encompassing aim.

On a basic level I'm happy for anyone to believe in anything provided the aren't affecting others with it but once they do then I've got issues with it. I'm also not keen on people who preach at me, if they want to tell me about the majesty of Christ then that is fine but once I ask them to stop that is their cue to hush up, I don't want to dissuade anyone from their beliefs (even assuming I could) but if they do not respect mine I will not respect theirs - basic courtesy here.

Garp · 14-03-2009, 22:23

Coming back to the old hymn thing, thought I'd post a few example youtube clips of a few different modern worship songs / styles.

Slightly mellow, British worship leader Tim Hughes:

A bit more up tempo, another British guy Matt Redman:

Tree 63 (south african group)

Some modern gospel sounds with Kirk Franklin:

and with his 1 Nation Crew project:

Rap/indie/hip hop type group thebandwithnoname (yes that really is how imaginative they were name wise)

R&B: Group 1 Crew

Metal sounds with Pillar

Kutless

12-03-2009, 20:23	#63
Matblack Baby Bore Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Svalbard Posts: 9,770	Here is my take; Religions came about at times when it was important to control people, people are not easily controlled but the one thing which brings them into line is uncertainty, the biggest uncertainty is what happens when they die, it scares people rigid because we are by nature a very possessive animal and we don't want to lose everything. You tell people if they are good little people that they can live forever and they will clamber over hot coals, tear their flesh and strap bombs to themselves and kill hundreds of people. Because fundamentally they are scared. At certain times in history there have been teachers who realised this, maybe they believed some of what had come before because they had faith, maybe they saw the potential power they could gain and started from scratch, some of the them may even have believed they were special. In the main they did good things, used stories and parables to encourage people to live good lives (some not so much). If you look at something like the Heavens Gate Cult or even the German people circa 1930 you can see that however smart people think they are they can still be taken in by individuals with exceptional personalities, you get enough of a following and you've got a religion, if its easy to follow and people are scared enough to believe it then it will snowball. If you look at many religious texts there's some bloody sensible stuff, stuff which is engineered to make people better, to encourage them not to kill one another, not to interbreed even the whole stop buggering one another and don't eat shellfish stuff is understandable. If for example your tribe is dying out you probably don't want blokes partnering off and not breeding and in a hot country with no fridges shellfish is gonna kill you, why not tell people its bad by writing it in a book? This does not prove the existence of a higher power, it proves that people will do the funniest stuff if you promise them something special and that's no bad thing, unless....... you allow the message to become distorted, you have religious leaders who are happy to 'give it a little tweak' at times of crisis, who are known to hide relevent texts (I'm looking at you Catholics) who are greedy for money or power or land and suddenly realise that they have an army of millions who could if you tell them that you've seen the Virgin Mary on a toilet roll invade your neighbors and bring you lots of booty. They write in these little clauses and people add them to the doctrine. If you look at all the major religions they have a few common roots; be nice, try not to kill each other, treat the earth with respect anything on top of that in my opinion is unnecessary. Here is what I 'believe' If you have an infinite amount of time then something weird is going to happen (like a bloody big bang) if you leave that for a bloody long time then something weird is going to happen (like life) yeah its a one in a trillion chance but give it a few trillions and it will happen, if you then leave that for a bloody long time then eventually you'll get something intelligent enough to make up a special story to justify its own existence, give that a while and it will probably come up with something a bit more plausible after it invents the microscope and computers and Diet Coke. I do believe that there is a higher power (this is not sarcasm). By default the universe is a life force but its sentience is to comprehensible to us, it grinds its way towards a conclusion. Like a human is made of cells the universe is made of worlds many of which will have life, and it molds itself. As tiny parts of that we effect its fate, what we do has an impact, if you are the best you can be during your limited span then your deeds will have an impact on the future however small. But in my opinion, however great you are you'd better revel in the moment because you aint getting a pair of wings and a grandstand seat [This has been a train of thought production, if it doesn't make sense to anyone but me I don't really care ] MB __________________ "we had roots that grew towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom had fallen from our branches we found that we were one tree and not two"

12-03-2009, 20:32	#64
Chuckles '09 sexual conquests: 4.5 Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,075	Very well thought out post. I agree with it all, apart from the last paragraph It's very similar to Nietzsche's take on the master/slave mentality. __________________

13-03-2009, 16:08	#66
Chuckles '09 sexual conquests: 4.5 Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,075	Given that time is infinite, isn't it a mathematical certainty that this would have happened, even if the odds are trillions to one? __________________

14-03-2009, 22:23	#70
Garp Preparing more tumbleweed Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,038	Coming back to the old hymn thing, thought I'd post a few example youtube clips of a few different modern worship songs / styles. Slightly mellow, British worship leader Tim Hughes: A bit more up tempo, another British guy Matt Redman: Tree 63 (south african group) Some modern gospel sounds with Kirk Franklin: and with his 1 Nation Crew project: Rap/indie/hip hop type group thebandwithnoname (yes that really is how imaginative they were name wise) R&B: Group 1 Crew Metal sounds with Pillar Kutless __________________ Mal: Define "interesting"? Wash: "Oh, God, oh, God, we're all gonna die"?

12-03-2009, 20:18	#61
Slinwagh Long Island Iced Tea Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 107	Where did "God" come from?