Are they sure this person is from Labour? - Page 5

Will · 26-02-2009, 19:21

It's up to the OP to request the thread be closed, or us if we deemed it inappropriate and I don't see why it should be closed.

Feek · 26-02-2009, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanbluesky

but it is of no use to me as I wish to discuss fact and principle

No, no you don't. You just want to preach at people until they agree with you. As Garp said, you won't take anything away from a debate, or accept that you might be even just slightly wrong. You just repeat the same stuff over and over again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garp

If you've ever wondered why people have stopped replying to you in other places and on here it's not because you've "won" or any such thing it's because they've realised that it is pointless ever talking to you about such subjects.

Nail. Head. I've had enough too. You won't care and I won't see any reply, but welcome to my ignore list.

cleanbluesky · 26-02-2009, 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Reality dawns? Perhaps I might suggest that the vast majority of comments since your post in this thread concern your attitude towards the issue rather than the issue itself.

What has become the issue here is why you saw fit to bring religion into this thread at all - especially given your insistence that it was merely incidental. Had it been just a one-off then I'm sure even then it would have passed by without remark (or with minimal remark), but these sorts of religious comments appear to have become habitual.

The comment was incidental, I've explained my attitude towards it and the reasoning behind it.

Quote:

What you may think in private is your own business, but if it's controversial enough and you express it in public often enough then you can expect it to get noticed and commented upon, as has happened.

The religion that dare not speak its name.

There has been nothing controversial about me using the name of a religion, although it carries an obvious controversy that others would rather ignore. I also think that the tone of comments directed at me have been inappropriate.

cleanbluesky · 26-02-2009, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feek

No, no you don't. You just want to preach at people until they agree with you. As Garp said, you won't take anything away from a debate, or accept that you might be even just slightly wrong. You just repeat the same stuff over and over again.

I want to discuss this with people that are capable of having a serious discussion - Phykell is an example in this thread. I don't wish any communication with people who immediately throw subjective emotive comments around, shift the debate immediately onto the debator without addressing the issue and then feel such inability to discuss anything that you need to add that person to the ignore list. Not that I think you've put me on ignore.

cleanbluesky · 26-02-2009, 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

I don't think it's controversial. I've been winding up enough groups on facebook with absolutely huge memberships to realise that it could well be a majority viewpoint. If not, then certainly one held by a huge amount of people.

I think a lot of people feel that way, and a lot of people feel the other way. I think the problem is a decent reasoning for both sides of the opinion.

Quote:

Would you like it to be a controversial one?

If I discuss it with people who already agree its no fun, if I discuss it with people go manic at the mention of the subject, its no fun.

Chuckles · 27-02-2009, 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanbluesky

If I discuss it with people who already agree its no fun, if I discuss it with people go manic at the mention of the subject, its no fun.

I'd say arguing with people you disagree with you is second only to arguing with people about something you don't even believe

cleanbluesky · 27-02-2009, 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

I'd say arguing with people you disagree with you is second only to arguing with people about something you don't even believe

After re-reading this, I think that you and Feek have a point. I have come across way too forcefully in this discussion and have been too rigid when it didn't develop in a way that I would have enjoyed. I apologise.

cleanbluesky · 27-02-2009, 14:52

I've been thinking about this a bit and I've got to say that I've held this strong viewpoint for a number of years, and I've also put it across in the same way for a number of years. In that time, public opinion has generally changed in a way that I find much more in-line with my own and more realistic although the subject tends to divide and there are also many people who strongly disagree with me. There was a time that putting my case forward in such a vitriolic way was right but the world has moved on and it is no longer necessary. I also believe that this is not the place either.

I think a lot of opinions have changed in the last few years, and so my attitude should change with it. Selah.

It may be that this subject will come up again and I will be more equitable in the way that I approach it.

phykell · 27-02-2009, 21:42

I reckon an opinion is a pretty complex entity. It has a history, progressing from instantiation (sorry for the software terms), through development and sometimes to being established as precedent. Our opinions are what our principles are based on, which in turn we use as ethical cornerstones for our view of the world. I believe the problem is that while we may wish to debate reasonably, it's much harder to remain objective if our opinions have passed into personal doctrine.

I reckon it's one of the downsides of getting older and I should know - I'm sure I've been guilty of some intransigence myself over the years

26-02-2009, 19:21	#41
Will BBx woz 'ere :P Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 2,147,487,208	It's up to the OP to request the thread be closed, or us if we deemed it inappropriate and I don't see why it should be closed. __________________ *No No!*

27-02-2009, 21:42	#49
phykell Vodka Martini Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 833	I reckon an opinion is a pretty complex entity. It has a history, progressing from instantiation (sorry for the software terms), through development and sometimes to being established as precedent. Our opinions are what our principles are based on, which in turn we use as ethical cornerstones for our view of the world. I believe the problem is that while we may wish to debate reasonably, it's much harder to remain objective if our opinions have passed into personal doctrine. I reckon it's one of the downsides of getting older and I should know - I'm sure I've been guilty of some intransigence myself over the years __________________

27-02-2009, 14:52	#48
cleanbluesky Abandoned Ship Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 492	I've been thinking about this a bit and I've got to say that I've held this strong viewpoint for a number of years, and I've also put it across in the same way for a number of years. In that time, public opinion has generally changed in a way that I find much more in-line with my own and more realistic although the subject tends to divide and there are also many people who strongly disagree with me. There was a time that putting my case forward in such a vitriolic way was right but the world has moved on and it is no longer necessary. I also believe that this is not the place either. I think a lot of opinions have changed in the last few years, and so my attitude should change with it. Selah. It may be that this subject will come up again and I will be more equitable in the way that I approach it.