Microsoft in the dock again ??

loki · 19-01-2009, 13:43

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7834792.stm

Is this really an abuse of their dominant position ?? Dare I say that I have some smypathy for them. I think if you wan't basic funtionallity out of the box and you are not tech or net savvy then IE offers a sollution. If you want more then there is of course Firefox, Opera, Safari & Chrome.

I must be missing something me thinks

Streeteh · 19-01-2009, 13:47

Extra money in the EUs pocket is all i can see as an adjenda. This act doesn't have the consumers interest in mind at all; most consumers want, no actually, need an internet browser chosen for them as standard, they would be lost without it.

Out of curiosity, whats the difference between this and Apple including Safari within OSX? Or the inclusion of a certain brand of CD player in a car (if we're going to get picky about it)?

NokkonWud · 19-01-2009, 13:55

If Microsoft DIDN'T offer an Internet package out of the box with Windows then there would be more complaints. Also, how are you supposed to get Chrome/Firefox/Opera/Safari etc.. without having the application available to you to download them.

If I'm getting Windows without a web browser I'd be very annoyed.

As Streeteh says, seems like Microsoft is an easy target, Apple don't get anything negative for including Safari, nor did Sony for forcing people into ATRAC on their players.

divine · 19-01-2009, 14:24

To be fair, at the end of the day, it is anti competitive in so much as IE has a huge head start over the other browsers.

It wouldn't be entirely difficult for them to remove it and present a choice on install with a rudimentary downloader. Windows 7 is a good example here with it's Anti-Virus suggestion that lets you pick from Kaspersky/Norton/AVG when you first install. Do that with IE, Firefox, Opera and Safari or something, with a brief description of each then you've instantly levelled the playing field and no one is left without any functionality.

The trouble is, the same can be said of pretty much anything Microsoft bundle, WMP, WMM, games, etc. etc. and where do you draw the line? Keep doing it everytime some competing company complains?

It's a tough one to call IMO.

The Apple/Sony examples are different because they are/were not in such a massive position of market dominance as Microsoft is with Windows. You can hardly accuse them of abusing their position as a monopoly when they don't even have one

Mondo · 19-01-2009, 15:06

They should remove it from the software, then sell it for £5 next to the OS in the shops.

People then will have no choice but to buy it if they want to get online............

The EU is stupid, you can't get online without a browser, catch 22, next thing they say is they need to get rid of the calculator because it harm sales of the real ones, or get rid of the OS all together because it harms all the others too.

People do have choices, they can get a Mac. You can't sue MS for the public's stupidity of not knowing how to download Firefox or Google Chrome.

divine · 19-01-2009, 15:26

You don't need a browser in the sense of IE though, just to get online basically. It would be perfectly possible to allow a download choice through a Windows Update style system like in the Windows 7 beta.

NokkonWud · 19-01-2009, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine

The Apple/Sony examples are different because they are/were not in such a massive position of market dominance as Microsoft is with Windows. You can hardly accuse them of abusing their position as a monopoly when they don't even have one

Not at all, OSX is the only option on the millions of Macs out there and every single one of them come with Safari. All Macs come with Safari, Microsoft have always included Internet Explorer, why should they change, Microsoft worked hard to make their OS platform the standard.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Internet Explorer... really don't like it, but if all these other companies want to complain they should have worked as hard as Microsoft. It would be worse if Windows didn't allow an alternate browser, but it does. It's up to those other developers to get their word out. To the best of my knowledge Firefox already has a rather large market share of Internet browsers as it is, so I don't see what the problem is.

divine · 19-01-2009, 15:32

Apple are not and do not have anything close to a monopoly in the computer market, trying to suggest otherwise is just silly. When Apple are dominating the home computer market on the scale Microsoft do, then you have an argument.

At the end of the day, it is anti competitive and they are using their dominance of the OS market to lever an unfair advantage in another market.

Frankly, i'd be far more worried if we were to let companies in similar position have complete free reign as it would be very quick to descend into a completely unchecked monopolistic economy that will do no one any good.

As a vague analogy, if you were trying to get people to use an XBox 360 (assuming everything was free) and I was allowed to go around and give every single person in your target market a PS3 first and you had to rely on them coming to you to get a 360, you probably wouldn't deem it very fair would you?

Daz · 19-01-2009, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine

The trouble is, the same can be said of pretty much anything Microsoft bundle, WMP, WMM, games, etc. etc. and where do you draw the line?

It did happen with WMP dont forget, and in Europe we have the 'N' versions of Vista and XP which come without media player (and KN in Korea which is also sans Live Messenger iirc).

I'm with divine really, it's not clear cut, and it is very difficult to balance MS's needs (to deliver the end user experience it wants - whatever motives they may be attached to), and the need to stay competitive.

I wonder if the EU really needs to do anything at the moment. Despite the market advantage Windows give them, IE's share is falling pretty steadily in recent times.

loki · 19-01-2009, 15:43

The only work around I can think of is if they have some option to include it in the install process. Iirc Windows 98 had the option to install some of the features that would probably be bundled as standard nowadays.

What's the alternative ?? No browser installed at all so how are users supposed to get on line to download an alternative browser

Microsoft provide IE as hard media free of charge ?? Well why should they incur the cost. Not to mention the environmental impact on producing the hard media.

MS bundle other browsers as an option at install. Would they not be liable for further litigation if they bundled browser X, Y & Z but didn't support them

Undoubtedly Microsoft is in a dominant market position but I can't see much wrong with what we as consumers have at the moment. We all DO have the choice of what browser we use. Whether we choose to use other or know how to use them is a different matter.

What next, class A law suits for mail clients being bundled or Messenger services such as MSN ??

19-01-2009, 13:43	#1
loki Vodka Martini Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 871	Microsoft in the dock again ?? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7834792.stm Is this really an abuse of their dominant position ?? Dare I say that I have some smypathy for them. I think if you wan't basic funtionallity out of the box and you are not tech or net savvy then IE offers a sollution. If you want more then there is of course Firefox, Opera, Safari & Chrome. I must be missing something me thinks __________________ PC & Console LAN 9th-11th July

19-01-2009, 13:47	#2
Streeteh Vodka Martini Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Kingston Posts: 862	Extra money in the EUs pocket is all i can see as an adjenda. This act doesn't have the consumers interest in mind at all; most consumers want, no actually, need an internet browser chosen for them as standard, they would be lost without it. Out of curiosity, whats the difference between this and Apple including Safari within OSX? Or the inclusion of a certain brand of CD player in a car (if we're going to get picky about it)? __________________ PSN & Live! ID: Streeteh

19-01-2009, 13:55	#3
NokkonWud BD Recruitment Officer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Smogville Posts: 3,880	If Microsoft DIDN'T offer an Internet package out of the box with Windows then there would be more complaints. Also, how are you supposed to get Chrome/Firefox/Opera/Safari etc.. without having the application available to you to download them. If I'm getting Windows without a web browser I'd be very annoyed. As Streeteh says, seems like Microsoft is an easy target, Apple don't get anything negative for including Safari, nor did Sony for forcing people into ATRAC on their players. __________________

19-01-2009, 14:24	#4
divine Moonshine Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Southampton Posts: 3,201	To be fair, at the end of the day, it is anti competitive in so much as IE has a huge head start over the other browsers. It wouldn't be entirely difficult for them to remove it and present a choice on install with a rudimentary downloader. Windows 7 is a good example here with it's Anti-Virus suggestion that lets you pick from Kaspersky/Norton/AVG when you first install. Do that with IE, Firefox, Opera and Safari or something, with a brief description of each then you've instantly levelled the playing field and no one is left without any functionality. The trouble is, the same can be said of pretty much anything Microsoft bundle, WMP, WMM, games, etc. etc. and where do you draw the line? Keep doing it everytime some competing company complains? It's a tough one to call IMO. The Apple/Sony examples are different because they are/were not in such a massive position of market dominance as Microsoft is with Windows. You can hardly accuse them of abusing their position as a monopoly when they don't even have one __________________

19-01-2009, 15:06	#5
Mondo Absinthe Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,174	They should remove it from the software, then sell it for £5 next to the OS in the shops. People then will have no choice but to buy it if they want to get online............ The EU is stupid, you can't get online without a browser, catch 22, next thing they say is they need to get rid of the calculator because it harm sales of the real ones, or get rid of the OS all together because it harms all the others too. People do have choices, they can get a Mac. You can't sue MS for the public's stupidity of not knowing how to download Firefox or Google Chrome. __________________ My Website / MSN / Email / Flickr / Blog

19-01-2009, 15:26	#6
divine Moonshine Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Southampton Posts: 3,201	You don't need a browser in the sense of IE though, just to get online basically. It would be perfectly possible to allow a download choice through a Windows Update style system like in the Windows 7 beta. __________________

19-01-2009, 15:32	#8
divine Moonshine Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Southampton Posts: 3,201	Apple are not and do not have anything close to a monopoly in the computer market, trying to suggest otherwise is just silly. When Apple are dominating the home computer market on the scale Microsoft do, then you have an argument. At the end of the day, it is anti competitive and they are using their dominance of the OS market to lever an unfair advantage in another market. Frankly, i'd be far more worried if we were to let companies in similar position have complete free reign as it would be very quick to descend into a completely unchecked monopolistic economy that will do no one any good. As a vague analogy, if you were trying to get people to use an XBox 360 (assuming everything was free) and I was allowed to go around and give every single person in your target market a PS3 first and you had to rely on them coming to you to get a 360, you probably wouldn't deem it very fair would you? __________________ Last edited by divine; 19-01-2009 at 15:35.

19-01-2009, 15:43	#10
loki Vodka Martini Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 871	The only work around I can think of is if they have some option to include it in the install process. Iirc Windows 98 had the option to install some of the features that would probably be bundled as standard nowadays. What's the alternative ?? No browser installed at all so how are users supposed to get on line to download an alternative browser Microsoft provide IE as hard media free of charge ?? Well why should they incur the cost. Not to mention the environmental impact on producing the hard media. MS bundle other browsers as an option at install. Would they not be liable for further litigation if they bundled browser X, Y & Z but didn't support them Undoubtedly Microsoft is in a dominant market position but I can't see much wrong with what we as consumers have at the moment. We all DO have the choice of what browser we use. Whether we choose to use other or know how to use them is a different matter. What next, class A law suits for mail clients being bundled or Messenger services such as MSN ?? __________________ PC & Console LAN 9th-11th July