Liability for damage in flats

Chuckles · 16-09-2009, 23:19

Can anyone help me with this?

About a week ago, the guy in the flat below knocked on my door and said there was a problem in his bathroom. He showed me round and the ceiling was very damp and there was a patch of about 1 foot square which was sagging.

His bathroom is directly under mine.

A couple of days later I got a letter from the Management company saying he had informed them that it had caused the partial collapse of the ceiling plaster and damage to the walls. I'd actually dispute the damage to the walls as I used to get mould as well and it was due purely to poor ventilation/condensation.

I got a guy in to have a look at it and he found that there was a problem with where the plug joins the plastic pipe under the plug. When the water drains, there is a very small leak (like 1 drop every 5 seconds). This was due to their not being an O ring between the two.

I've lived there for 5 years and when I bought it, they had just put in the bathroom so had obviously cut corners.

It's fixed now, but given that it was such a tiny leak, I'll be a bit pissed if I have to pay for any damage to the flat below because it must have been like that for years and getting worse and worse and only brought to light when it was too late.

I've written this letter in response. Does it sound OK? I want to say it's now sorted but I don't want to admit liability if possible.

Quote:

Dear *******

I refer you to your letter ref ********.

I can confirm that I have now instructed a contractor to investigate and repair the fittings to the bathroom of my flat.

When the bath was installed by a previous owner, an “O-Ring” was not fitted between the plug and the pipe which carries out water drained from the bath. This caused occasional droplets of water to spill onto the floor which potentially could seep through to the flat below.

He highlighted that the leak is so gradual any damage to the below flat must have occurred over a long period of time, and in his opinion, the damage could have been avoided if the problem was brought to light earlier.

I can also confirm that the leak has been repaired and saturation should now dry out.

As a matter of course, he also reapplied sealant to bath and adjacent wall although in his opinion, this was not to source of the problem.

If I am able to claim reinstatement for the partial or full cost of his work, please supply me with details on how to do this

This guy that fixed it was actually the girl I'm datings brother who did it for beer money so I'm not bothered about claiming back on insurence. Especially as I bet there's excess which will be much more!

Ta muchly

Chuckles · 16-09-2009, 23:22

Oh I should have mentioned!

It's a purpose built leasehold block of flats (9 in total). There is a £60 a month maintenance fee payable to a property management company (which includes buildings insurence). It was them who sent me the letter.

I am the owner/occupier and also have contents insurance.

cheets · 16-09-2009, 23:40

Ah the old o ring problem, some lads in the workshop nicked my o ring out of the bath trap and it was leaking the next day, you will have to pay its your property that has damaged the room below, insurance should cover it.

Shame about the cowboys cutting corners its only a piece of plastic that should of come with the trap and would of cost 10p to buy.

Mark · 17-09-2009, 00:11

Sounds about right to me, though the letter is worth a shot.

The cowboy act did mine too. It was all fine apart from a copper on copper connection for my hot water. They'd just pushed it on.

I only had a very low pressure hot water system, but I had that fixed a year later. Cue impromptu geyser and downstairs neighbour yelling at me. Somehow I got away with it - damage on both floors was minimal and I didn't have to pay anything (yes, I offered). The pipework was even fixed under guarantee.

If you have a common landlord and they installed it, then it's worth talking to them. Otherwise if the letter doesn't work it's a case of working out which is worse for you - paying for it or claiming on your insurance.

Dymetrie · 17-09-2009, 08:26

Check your lease.

Unless you have a communal water/drainage system which is completely managed by the freeholder (very unlikely) then you are liable, as said though insurance should cover it.

Your lease will state, implicitely, who is responsible and liable for fittings and pipework in you property and the block (most likely is that everything inside the boundary of your property is your responsibility and then reverts to the freeholder outside the boundary... Of course, the freeholder can charge you for maintenance of communal stuffs).

The fact it was the fault of a previous owner means nothing, as soon as you bought the property you became responsible and liable.

Chuckles · 17-09-2009, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dymetrie

The fact it was the fault of a previous owner means nothing, as soon as you bought the property you became responsible and liable.

I understand that. What has annoyed me though is that this problem must have occurred over a period of years. Surely he has a duty to bring the problem to light in a timely fashion, rather than wait until the plaster actually falls down resulting in a greater cost to repair.

Rich_L · 17-09-2009, 10:42

Few things I'd advise

First, check the terms of your lease carefully for responsibility, although I'd be surprised if it didn't say that you were liable for your pipework and suchlike.

If you wanted, you could get into a major dispute, bringing in the previous owner(s) as parties, who would bring in (presumably) the builders, as well as arguing that the person(s) below failed to mitigate. You could have a very protracted and costly dispute, and then the sucker punch is that the managing company (normally) have a clause in the lease where they recoup legal charges from the tenants through the service charge - epic fail.

If you can always always always try and settle things like this through discussion rather than getting companies involved - tenant disputes are invariably matters where if you proceed down a formal/legal route all that happens is that everyone ends up out of pocket and unhappy!

Von Smallhausen · 17-09-2009, 11:48

I had a similar problem when upstairs had a gradual leak and the result was my ceiling below crashing down.

The lad upstairs, who I get on with, didn't twist at all and within 5 days I had a new ceiling that he paid for.

Good discussion will be the best course of action Chuckles as Rich says but I would explore your legal standing first before parting with any loot.

Nutcase · 17-09-2009, 18:48

Hmm, deja vu!

The flat above mine did something similar. Took a year (I'm FAR too patient...) but it was done under the buildings insurance.

16-09-2009, 23:22	#2
Chuckles '09 sexual conquests: 4.5 Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,075	Oh I should have mentioned! It's a purpose built leasehold block of flats (9 in total). There is a £60 a month maintenance fee payable to a property management company (which includes buildings insurence). It was them who sent me the letter. I am the owner/occupier and also have contents insurance. __________________

17-09-2009, 00:11	#4
Mark Screaming Orgasm Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Newbury Posts: 15,194	Sounds about right to me, though the letter is worth a shot. The cowboy act did mine too. It was all fine apart from a copper on copper connection for my hot water. They'd just pushed it on. I only had a very low pressure hot water system, but I had that fixed a year later. Cue impromptu geyser and downstairs neighbour yelling at me. Somehow I got away with it - damage on both floors was minimal and I didn't have to pay anything (yes, I offered). The pipework was even fixed under guarantee. If you have a common landlord and they installed it, then it's worth talking to them. Otherwise if the letter doesn't work it's a case of working out which is worse for you - paying for it or claiming on your insurance. Last edited by Mark; 17-09-2009 at 00:20.

17-09-2009, 08:26	#5
Dymetrie A large glass of Merlot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Letchworth with a Lightsaber Posts: 5,819	Check your lease. Unless you have a communal water/drainage system which is completely managed by the freeholder (very unlikely) then you are liable, as said though insurance should cover it. Your lease will state, implicitely, who is responsible and liable for fittings and pipework in you property and the block (most likely is that everything inside the boundary of your property is your responsibility and then reverts to the freeholder outside the boundary... Of course, the freeholder can charge you for maintenance of communal stuffs). The fact it was the fault of a previous owner means nothing, as soon as you bought the property you became responsible and liable. __________________ Khef, Ka and Ka-Tet....

17-09-2009, 10:42	#7
Rich_L Dr Cocktapuss Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Seven Sizzles Posts: 1,044	Few things I'd advise First, check the terms of your lease carefully for responsibility, although I'd be surprised if it didn't say that you were liable for your pipework and suchlike. If you wanted, you could get into a major dispute, bringing in the previous owner(s) as parties, who would bring in (presumably) the builders, as well as arguing that the person(s) below failed to mitigate. You could have a very protracted and costly dispute, and then the sucker punch is that the managing company (normally) have a clause in the lease where they recoup legal charges from the tenants through the service charge - epic fail. If you can always always always try and settle things like this through discussion rather than getting companies involved - tenant disputes are invariably matters where if you proceed down a formal/legal route all that happens is that everyone ends up out of pocket and unhappy! __________________

17-09-2009, 11:48	#8
Von Smallhausen I'm Free Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Tyneside Posts: 3,061	I had a similar problem when upstairs had a gradual leak and the result was my ceiling below crashing down. The lad upstairs, who I get on with, didn't twist at all and within 5 days I had a new ceiling that he paid for. Good discussion will be the best course of action Chuckles as Rich says but I would explore your legal standing first before parting with any loot. __________________ " Well, old bean, life is really so bloody awful that I feel it’s my absolute duty to be chirpy and try and make everybody else happy too." David Niven, 1910-1983.

16-09-2009, 23:40	#3
cheets Long Island Iced Tea Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 442	Ah the old o ring problem, some lads in the workshop nicked my o ring out of the bath trap and it was leaking the next day, you will have to pay its your property that has damaged the room below, insurance should cover it. Shame about the cowboys cutting corners its only a piece of plastic that should of come with the trap and would of cost 10p to buy.

17-09-2009, 18:48	#9
Nutcase Moonshine Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Chelmsford, innit! Posts: 3,979	Hmm, deja vu! The flat above mine did something similar. Took a year (I'm FAR too patient...) but it was done under the buildings insurance.