Good news for the eco retroists

Jonny69 · 14-01-2011, 14:58

Posted this on Retro Rides but there are a few of us on here with old modified motors. Whether you're into green issues or not, like it or not, fuel prices are going up. I've been interested in eco conversions on retro vehicles for some time and have been looking into home electric conversions and even ways to bodge on my own hybrid system so I can roll around town on the electric motor and fire up the engine when I need to get a move on.

Going all electric is dead easy. If you've got space to hide the batteries then there are numerous electric conversions out there and have been since the mid 90's. The advantage of converting an older car is you get the light weight, you use deep draw lead-acid technology which is cheap and plentiful and, even though you have to change the batteries once a year, the running costs are still quite a bit lower than petrol.

The main problem I've had up to now is how to do a hybrid. Most hybrids are FWD and a lot bigger than older cars. To rob all the gubbins from a wrecked Prius, CRZ or gen 2 Insight would be easy enough, but stuffing it all under something like a Nova would just be impossible. And on top of that, a lot of our cars are RWD which pretty much rules out our options.

Until now. BMW are doing a hybrid system in the next generation 1-Series. This is the funny looking little hatch type car, which happens to be RWD. According to these links it'll be hitting the market late 2011 to early 2012:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/10911192...for-first-time

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/19/s...ted-in-munich/

This is good news for us who want to drop economical motors into our cars. I'm sure it won't be too long before the first wreckers come up for sale, so by 2013 we'll probably have quite a few powerplants in circulation. Those Bimmers aren't the lightest of cars, so if they can do 55mpg combined, when stuffed in a light retro shell they should be able to stretch their legs a lot further.

Here's a bit of Bradley GT electric action:

http://blog.sierratradingpost.com/in...car-for-10000/

Del Lardo · 14-01-2011, 15:11

Would sticking a modern diesel engine in be an option?

I can get 60+mpg on a run from my Megane and that's lugging 1.4tonnes around so a light weight classic should be even higher.

Jonny69 · 14-01-2011, 18:07

The main problem is down to whether there's a RWD option for most people. Modern FWD engines can be notoriously difficult to turn round and mount up the right way round. Otherwise, a lot of the new common rail diesels would be a viable swap.

Darrin · 17-01-2011, 02:32

Why not put a VERY small Diesel (2 cyl) hooked directly to a 120V generator head from stateside? Output run through a rectifier and directly into a battery bank. Have the battery bank run a typical DC electric motor on the original transmission. The Diesel could be situated in the boot.

That's the exact system (scaled up quite a bit) that American train locomotives have been using for 60+ years. Seems to work quite well for them...

Jonny69 · 19-01-2011, 14:55

You have a double loss of efficiency in that drivetrain. You have an efficiency drop in running the engine, then an efficiency drop in the motor (or charging the battery). It's more efficient in that setup to directly drive the wheels

Diesel-electric is a lot smoother for pulling a train along though.

The hybrid is more efficient sitting in traffic round town than a constantly running motor, but then you have the added weight and complexity to drive round on the motorway where it is no benefit.

Each system has its own merits and none is perfect unfortunately.

I don't understand why turbo diesel cars can't be hybrids, then you have a better win win situation than using a petrol engine.

Darrin · 20-01-2011, 20:46

Yes, you'll have losses. No system is perfect (until we get a Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future). But I do believe the system I described above would be the most efficient for an in-town people transporter and a highway cruiser.

Especially if you ran it as a plug-in hybrid.

Dymetrie · 23-01-2011, 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darrin

(until we get a Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future).

N00b!

That only runs the time circuits!

The internal combustion engine still runs on gas (which won't be available in these parts for another 50 years)!

Darrin · 24-01-2011, 01:21

Oh, I know. But I never understood why in the third movie Doc Brown didn't just wind himself up a series wound electric motor and align it with the input shaft on the transmission. I mean, the Mr Fusion certainly had enough output power to supply a couple thousand watts to the electric traction motor. :shrug:

I also wondered why he didn't use parts/fuel out of the Delorean that he jumped back in time with. Yes, the time circuits were fried, but all they needed was a fuel line and gasoline...

Dymetrie · 24-01-2011, 10:03

Agree with the first part, would have been far more sensible, but then there wouldn't have been the fun of pushing it in front of a train.

But he didn't use parts from the delorean he jumped back in time with because that was the one which he hid for Marty to find which he then used to jump back in time (it was the flying circuits that were proper fried) that then got broken

/off topic!

Garp · 26-01-2011, 01:02

Speaking of Diesel-electric hybrids:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01...1-concept-car/

14-01-2011, 14:58	#1
Jonny69 Noob Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Socialist Republik of Kent Posts: 5,032	Good news for the eco retroists Posted this on Retro Rides but there are a few of us on here with old modified motors. Whether you're into green issues or not, like it or not, fuel prices are going up. I've been interested in eco conversions on retro vehicles for some time and have been looking into home electric conversions and even ways to bodge on my own hybrid system so I can roll around town on the electric motor and fire up the engine when I need to get a move on. Going all electric is dead easy. If you've got space to hide the batteries then there are numerous electric conversions out there and have been since the mid 90's. The advantage of converting an older car is you get the light weight, you use deep draw lead-acid technology which is cheap and plentiful and, even though you have to change the batteries once a year, the running costs are still quite a bit lower than petrol. The main problem I've had up to now is how to do a hybrid. Most hybrids are FWD and a lot bigger than older cars. To rob all the gubbins from a wrecked Prius, CRZ or gen 2 Insight would be easy enough, but stuffing it all under something like a Nova would just be impossible. And on top of that, a lot of our cars are RWD which pretty much rules out our options. Until now. BMW are doing a hybrid system in the next generation 1-Series. This is the funny looking little hatch type car, which happens to be RWD. According to these links it'll be hitting the market late 2011 to early 2012: http://www.worldcarfans.com/10911192...for-first-time http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/19/s...ted-in-munich/ This is good news for us who want to drop economical motors into our cars. I'm sure it won't be too long before the first wreckers come up for sale, so by 2013 we'll probably have quite a few powerplants in circulation. Those Bimmers aren't the lightest of cars, so if they can do 55mpg combined, when stuffed in a light retro shell they should be able to stretch their legs a lot further. Here's a bit of Bradley GT electric action: http://blog.sierratradingpost.com/in...car-for-10000/ __________________

14-01-2011, 18:07	#3
Jonny69 Noob Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Socialist Republik of Kent Posts: 5,032	The main problem is down to whether there's a RWD option for most people. Modern FWD engines can be notoriously difficult to turn round and mount up the right way round. Otherwise, a lot of the new common rail diesels would be a viable swap. __________________

17-01-2011, 02:32	#4
Darrin Dirteh Kitteh Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hiding out in Mormon Country Posts: 1,629	Why not put a VERY small Diesel (2 cyl) hooked directly to a 120V generator head from stateside? Output run through a rectifier and directly into a battery bank. Have the battery bank run a typical DC electric motor on the original transmission. The Diesel could be situated in the boot. That's the exact system (scaled up quite a bit) that American train locomotives have been using for 60+ years. Seems to work quite well for them... __________________ A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed "to whom it may concern". Last edited by Darrin; 17-01-2011 at 02:56.

19-01-2011, 14:55	#5
Jonny69 Noob Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Socialist Republik of Kent Posts: 5,032	You have a double loss of efficiency in that drivetrain. You have an efficiency drop in running the engine, then an efficiency drop in the motor (or charging the battery). It's more efficient in that setup to directly drive the wheels Diesel-electric is a lot smoother for pulling a train along though. The hybrid is more efficient sitting in traffic round town than a constantly running motor, but then you have the added weight and complexity to drive round on the motorway where it is no benefit. Each system has its own merits and none is perfect unfortunately. I don't understand why turbo diesel cars can't be hybrids, then you have a better win win situation than using a petrol engine. __________________

20-01-2011, 20:46	#6
Darrin Dirteh Kitteh Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hiding out in Mormon Country Posts: 1,629	Yes, you'll have losses. No system is perfect (until we get a Mr. Fusion from Back to the Future). But I do believe the system I described above would be the most efficient for an in-town people transporter and a highway cruiser. Especially if you ran it as a plug-in hybrid. __________________ A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed "to whom it may concern".

14-01-2011, 15:11	#2
Del Lardo Absinthe Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cambridge Posts: 2,539	Would sticking a modern diesel engine in be an option? I can get 60+mpg on a run from my Megane and that's lugging 1.4tonnes around so a light weight classic should be even higher.

24-01-2011, 01:21	#8
Darrin Dirteh Kitteh Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hiding out in Mormon Country Posts: 1,629	Oh, I know. But I never understood why in the third movie Doc Brown didn't just wind himself up a series wound electric motor and align it with the input shaft on the transmission. I mean, the Mr Fusion certainly had enough output power to supply a couple thousand watts to the electric traction motor. :shrug: I also wondered why he didn't use parts/fuel out of the Delorean that he jumped back in time with. Yes, the time circuits were fried, but all they needed was a fuel line and gasoline... __________________ A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed "to whom it may concern".

24-01-2011, 10:03	#9
Dymetrie A large glass of Merlot Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Letchworth with a Lightsaber Posts: 5,819	Agree with the first part, would have been far more sensible, but then there wouldn't have been the fun of pushing it in front of a train. But he didn't use parts from the delorean he jumped back in time with because that was the one which he hid for Marty to find which he then used to jump back in time (it was the flying circuits that were proper fried) that then got broken /off topic! __________________ Khef, Ka and Ka-Tet....

26-01-2011, 01:02	#10
Garp Preparing more tumbleweed Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,038	Speaking of Diesel-electric hybrids: http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/01...1-concept-car/ __________________ Mal: Define "interesting"? Wash: "Oh, God, oh, God, we're all gonna die"?