Teacher Pension - Strikes

Pickers · 22-06-2011, 17:53

Right guys, as a mature and reasonable guy (these days), and a somewhat premature grumpy old man, I have been forced to pay particular attention to the issues surrounding public sector pension review.

Basically I want your opinion as members of the general public, do you support the decision of 2 teaching unions to strike next Thursday against the proposed changes to the Teacher Pension Scheme (henceforth known as the TPS), or so you feel that it is unjustified?

Here is what I know (in bullet form):

There is not enough money in the public sector pension pot so cuts of one form or another are required.
3 years ago the TPS (part of the pot), was changed to address these issues with a promise to review and evaluate the changes this year to ensure it had done what is had required. In brief I believe one thing that changed was from a CPI to an RPI used to calculate and scale the pension.
The change has (I believe) ensured that the TPS is self-sufficient and viable, HOWEVER based on recommendations from the Hutton reports that the public sector as a whole needs changing, the government has NOT done a formal apprasial of this revised TPS as (presumably) it knows it will show that the TPS is not operating at a loss.
Teachers face a 3% rise in pension contributions, thats typically £100 less each month, with significantly reduced payout upon reaching the (also risen) retirement age of 67
It has been noted that the military is the "black hole" of the pensions pot, as they can retire on full pension at 40 with little/no contributions (need to confirm this) and - based on a life expectancy of 85) draw 45 years worth of pension.

Basically teachers are taking another hit to subsidise the parts of the public sector pensions that are losing money.

Now this statement is my own opinion and clearly not fact: The goverenment know that teachers are timid about action such s striking, and certain public sectors workers cannot strike, so perhaps they assume teachers will sit back and take it.

Yet more opinion:- To be a teacher can take 4 years of FE. With risen tuition fees that a £35k debt that a teacher will be facing when they start their career. They also then will have to look at extortionate monthy pension contributions and seek further financial support to subside their reduced pension. I ask you, how is this going to entice good quality teachers?

I open this up for discussion...

Jingo · 22-06-2011, 18:21

I'm not sure on the pension part - it all sounds a bit complicated and has the potential to be spin doctored (I'm not insinuating by you) to view from different stances.

But in response to the FE and rising costs, I've watched my friend go through his full training fully subsidised by the local authority - he has no student debts!

A great incentive for a vital job role. Whether or not this is inflated inline with the cost of fees I do not know, however, anything is better than nothing!

He started his first teaching position within mere weeks of graduating and also gets a tidy bonus as he works in a 'bottom 100 in the UK school' or similarly rated; again, a good incentive to keep quality teachers at 'difficult' schools.

I would still train to be a teacher - I don't think they get a bad deal, though perhaps not as good as they have in previous years; in a time of cuts everywhere, perhaps this is how the teaching types are going to be effected?

Pickers · 22-06-2011, 18:28

Yes there are benefits, but it does seem like teachers are being given a raw deal at the moment. Why will the government not do the audit that would prove the TPS is working as it should?

I suppose what I am asking, is do you guys support the decision to strike, or are you of the opinion that striking for a day is selfish as teachers are about to go on their 6 week summer holiday? I'm biased; I want an external perspective.

Haly · 22-06-2011, 18:46

I support it but 9 times out of 10 I tend to support the right to strike and thus striking in general. Never very keen on the 'Pfft x person has it better than me so why should they get to 'whine' about it?'. While it can be a pain in the arse if you're affected, I like that I live in a country where people can metaphorically (and sometimes literally) stand up and go 'Oi no. I don't like this'.

I also see it more that if I thought teachers had an easy life, I'd go train to be one! But I know I could never do it so I won't. A similar case with a lot of public sector roles.

I'm bound to have a skewed opinion though having grown up around University lecturers and my father being one also. A bit like teachers, University lecturers on the surface look like they have a very, very easy time. They don't all. My Dad never knew what work he had from term to term and was often on a wage that many on here would struggle on.

Mind you, in both cases, if you work your way up to the top, you're laughing and there will always be exceptions to the rule

As an aside though and after what Jingo said: a good friend of mine trained as a primary school teacher. If what the news often goes on about was true, he'd have a job easily. He's male (and there's meant to be a desperate need for male primary school teachers) and bilingual so a Welsh school should happily snap him up.
Instead he's a supply teacher who regularly has to scrape pennies together, never knows what work he's going to have from day to day let alone week to week and yet still spends most of his free time organising lesson plans etc.
Oh and he had the joy of one kid throwing yoghurt at him yesterday and another threatening to hit him.

Rather him than me!

Knipples · 22-06-2011, 18:49

As much as the pension issue stinks (and it does, part of my pension will be an LEA one due to me working for the council when Marchant was at primary school) I dont actually think many teachers will walk out, nor should they walk out (even though I fully agree with the reasons behind it) because at the end of the day, teachers became teachers to educate and look after children, and these strikes will make those very same children suffer because they will miss out on a day of education, also their parents will suffer because they will have to take a day off etc.

People go on about teachers getting "all that holiday" its not actually holiday is it though, they get paid for the number of weeks they are at work, less the school holidays and then it just gets worked out and divided over 12 months.

That said, it might be the only way to actually get people to listen, part of the idea behind strikes is to cause chaos, and disruption, so that attention is drawn to the reason behind the strikes. Next Thursday is going to cause chaos if lots of teachers walk out, we've already had schools ringing our office to cancel meetings that have been booked for weeks, because they either won't be in that day, or they can't leave the school, as they don't know how many staff they will have in (am I right in saying that they don't have to give advance warning to the school they work for?)

So I guess what I am saying is I can see it from both sides, I also don't think teachers will be the only ones striking over the next few months, the bin men in Bristol walked out today over pay for example. Good luck with whatever you decide to do Picky, it can't be an easy decision to make.

Knipples · 22-06-2011, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haly

Oh and he had the joy of one kid throwing yoghurt at him yesterday and another threatening to hit him.

Rather him than me!

The teachers in the schools in the area of Bristol I work in are regularly getting assaulted by the children they teach, and subjected to verbal abuse left right and centre. I dont know how they do it. They can't boot the all the "bad" kids out because they'd have no one left to teach

Matblack · 22-06-2011, 18:56

A lot of public sector workers are underpaid for their level of education in comparison to private sector, I get fed up with being told that teachers teach and nurses nurse because it's a vocation and they do it for love. The one concession that they did get was that they could retire a little early with a half decent pension in comparision to their wages when they were earning bit thats been eroded. Teaching and working in education in general is a thankless task. Strike, protect your rights and draw attention to the inbalance

MB

Pickers · 22-06-2011, 19:01

Im luck in the school that I work at - generally there is little in the way of yoghurt throwing, but there are challenges in facing a room full of teenage boys; how the goverment expect teachers to have the energy to do that when they are 67 to receive full pension is beyond me!

Anyway, yes knipples, the strike would cause disruption to education; but how else do workers demonstrate their worth and their discontent at proposed changes that will put their future financial stability at risk? If the changes came in in full force, I can see many teachers leaving the profession for good, not just one day!

As it is, on that day there are no external exams, all external examinations are over and therefore "quality teaching time" isnt really there. At this time of year, its a lot of admin for teachers. The disruption would be parents having to take time off work to look after their children because schools arent fully staffed.

Briggykins · 22-06-2011, 20:32

Strike! I'll join you on the picket line. While I accept that there isn't enough money in the public sector pot, I don't accept that teacher's pensions (or nurses, social workers, or any front-line public sector workers) should take the hit. We need good, well-qualified teachers teaching the subject they took a degree in.
This does of course lead to the question of what you cut instead. For a start I'd throw the High Speed 2 railway line out - upgrading what is already the best-connected parts of the country doesn't seem to me to be a priority at the moment. There you go, that's £32 billion for you right there.

We are though, it seems to me, quite a liberal forum. Bet you if asked the same question over on the other place you'd get a different response.

Del Lardo · 22-06-2011, 20:47

On whether you should strike because of pension reforms, I honestly have no idea as I don't have anywhere close to a good enough understanding of the situation and to be honest I don't trust what either side (the government and unions) are saying as both will always put out a highly spun, one sided viewpoint.

What concerns me is the actual numbers in the Teaching Unions that have voted in favour of a strike, for the NUT it was 92% in favour with 40% turn out (so only 36.8% actually voted in favour) and for the ATL it was 83% in favour with turn out of 35% (so only 29% actually voted in favour). Now I'm not claiming that the remainder weren't in favour of the strike action but to strike when only 29% of your members have said they want to seems wrong to me though I'm sure that similar statistic could be banded about for the Tory victory in the General Election

22-06-2011, 17:53	#1
Pickers Absinthe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornwall Posts: 2,692	Teacher Pension - Strikes Right guys, as a mature and reasonable guy (these days), and a somewhat premature grumpy old man, I have been forced to pay particular attention to the issues surrounding public sector pension review. Basically I want your opinion as members of the general public, do you support the decision of 2 teaching unions to strike next Thursday against the proposed changes to the Teacher Pension Scheme (henceforth known as the TPS), or so you feel that it is unjustified? Here is what I know (in bullet form): There is not enough money in the public sector pension pot so cuts of one form or another are required. 3 years ago the TPS (part of the pot), was changed to address these issues with a promise to review and evaluate the changes this year to ensure it had done what is had required. In brief I believe one thing that changed was from a CPI to an RPI used to calculate and scale the pension. The change has (I believe) ensured that the TPS is self-sufficient and viable, HOWEVER based on recommendations from the Hutton reports that the public sector as a whole needs changing, the government has NOT done a formal apprasial of this revised TPS as (presumably) it knows it will show that the TPS is not operating at a loss. Teachers face a 3% rise in pension contributions, thats typically £100 less each month, with significantly reduced payout upon reaching the (also risen) retirement age of 67 It has been noted that the military is the "black hole" of the pensions pot, as they can retire on full pension at 40 with little/no contributions (need to confirm this) and - based on a life expectancy of 85) draw 45 years worth of pension. Basically teachers are taking another hit to subsidise the parts of the public sector pensions that are losing money. Now this statement is my own opinion and clearly not fact: The goverenment know that teachers are timid about action such s striking, and certain public sectors workers cannot strike, so perhaps they assume teachers will sit back and take it. Yet more opinion:- To be a teacher can take 4 years of FE. With risen tuition fees that a £35k debt that a teacher will be facing when they start their career. They also then will have to look at extortionate monthy pension contributions and seek further financial support to subside their reduced pension. I ask you, how is this going to entice good quality teachers? I open this up for discussion... __________________ Pictures

22-06-2011, 18:21	#2
Jingo Smother me in chocolate and eat flapjacks with it! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: North Somerset Posts: 1,854	I'm not sure on the pension part - it all sounds a bit complicated and has the potential to be spin doctored (I'm not insinuating by you) to view from different stances. But in response to the FE and rising costs, I've watched my friend go through his full training fully subsidised by the local authority - he has no student debts! A great incentive for a vital job role. Whether or not this is inflated inline with the cost of fees I do not know, however, anything is better than nothing! He started his first teaching position within mere weeks of graduating and also gets a tidy bonus as he works in a 'bottom 100 in the UK school' or similarly rated; again, a good incentive to keep quality teachers at 'difficult' schools. I would still train to be a teacher - I don't think they get a bad deal, though perhaps not as good as they have in previous years; in a time of cuts everywhere, perhaps this is how the teaching types are going to be effected? __________________

22-06-2011, 18:28	#3
Pickers Absinthe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornwall Posts: 2,692	Yes there are benefits, but it does seem like teachers are being given a raw deal at the moment. Why will the government not do the audit that would prove the TPS is working as it should? I suppose what I am asking, is do you guys support the decision to strike, or are you of the opinion that striking for a day is selfish as teachers are about to go on their 6 week summer holiday? I'm biased; I want an external perspective. __________________ Pictures

22-06-2011, 18:46	#4
Haly Do you want to hide in my box? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,941	I support it but 9 times out of 10 I tend to support the right to strike and thus striking in general. Never very keen on the 'Pfft x person has it better than me so why should they get to 'whine' about it?'. While it can be a pain in the arse if you're affected, I like that I live in a country where people can metaphorically (and sometimes literally) stand up and go 'Oi no. I don't like this'. I also see it more that if I thought teachers had an easy life, I'd go train to be one! But I know I could never do it so I won't. A similar case with a lot of public sector roles. I'm bound to have a skewed opinion though having grown up around University lecturers and my father being one also. A bit like teachers, University lecturers on the surface look like they have a very, very easy time. They don't all. My Dad never knew what work he had from term to term and was often on a wage that many on here would struggle on. Mind you, in both cases, if you work your way up to the top, you're laughing and there will always be exceptions to the rule As an aside though and after what Jingo said: a good friend of mine trained as a primary school teacher. If what the news often goes on about was true, he'd have a job easily. He's male (and there's meant to be a desperate need for male primary school teachers) and bilingual so a Welsh school should happily snap him up. Instead he's a supply teacher who regularly has to scrape pennies together, never knows what work he's going to have from day to day let alone week to week and yet still spends most of his free time organising lesson plans etc. Oh and he had the joy of one kid throwing yoghurt at him yesterday and another threatening to hit him. Rather him than me! __________________ Halycopter

22-06-2011, 18:56	#7
Matblack Baby Bore Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Svalbard Posts: 9,770	A lot of public sector workers are underpaid for their level of education in comparison to private sector, I get fed up with being told that teachers teach and nurses nurse because it's a vocation and they do it for love. The one concession that they did get was that they could retire a little early with a half decent pension in comparision to their wages when they were earning bit thats been eroded. Teaching and working in education in general is a thankless task. Strike, protect your rights and draw attention to the inbalance MB __________________ "we had roots that grew towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom had fallen from our branches we found that we were one tree and not two"

22-06-2011, 19:01	#8
Pickers Absinthe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornwall Posts: 2,692	Im luck in the school that I work at - generally there is little in the way of yoghurt throwing, but there are challenges in facing a room full of teenage boys; how the goverment expect teachers to have the energy to do that when they are 67 to receive full pension is beyond me! Anyway, yes knipples, the strike would cause disruption to education; but how else do workers demonstrate their worth and their discontent at proposed changes that will put their future financial stability at risk? If the changes came in in full force, I can see many teachers leaving the profession for good, not just one day! As it is, on that day there are no external exams, all external examinations are over and therefore "quality teaching time" isnt really there. At this time of year, its a lot of admin for teachers. The disruption would be parents having to take time off work to look after their children because schools arent fully staffed. __________________ Pictures

22-06-2011, 20:32	#9
Briggykins Vodka Martini Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Exeter Posts: 753	Strike! I'll join you on the picket line. While I accept that there isn't enough money in the public sector pot, I don't accept that teacher's pensions (or nurses, social workers, or any front-line public sector workers) should take the hit. We need good, well-qualified teachers teaching the subject they took a degree in. This does of course lead to the question of what you cut instead. For a start I'd throw the High Speed 2 railway line out - upgrading what is already the best-connected parts of the country doesn't seem to me to be a priority at the moment. There you go, that's £32 billion for you right there. We are though, it seems to me, quite a liberal forum. Bet you if asked the same question over on the other place you'd get a different response. __________________

22-06-2011, 20:47	#10
Del Lardo Absinthe Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cambridge Posts: 2,539	On whether you should strike because of pension reforms, I honestly have no idea as I don't have anywhere close to a good enough understanding of the situation and to be honest I don't trust what either side (the government and unions) are saying as both will always put out a highly spun, one sided viewpoint. What concerns me is the actual numbers in the Teaching Unions that have voted in favour of a strike, for the NUT it was 92% in favour with 40% turn out (so only 36.8% actually voted in favour) and for the ATL it was 83% in favour with turn out of 35% (so only 29% actually voted in favour). Now I'm not claiming that the remainder weren't in favour of the strike action but to strike when only 29% of your members have said they want to seems wrong to me though I'm sure that similar statistic could be banded about for the Tory victory in the General Election