Light touch paper and withdraw to a safe distance?

Garp · 30-12-2006, 12:05

The deed is done, one less former dictator in the world. A cause for celebration surely? Not really, it would have been better if he'd have been able to see the error of his ways and repented, but they've just ensured that will never happen.
Justice served? Hardly. A Mickey Mouse court operation, a legal defence team stymied at every turn; never allowed to see all the evidence being used against him, a Judge appointed and trained by the US for the explicit purpose of this case who from the very start declared Saddam "Guilty", done in a court set up and controlled by the United States (illegal under the international humanitarian law in the Fourth Geneva Convention); A tribunal who obscured justice at all stages, first declaring no evidence existed from the Dujail trial, and then later allowed the prosecution to use evidence from it whilst simultaneously refusing the defence team access to any of the records; who refused to even tell the defence team the charges being raised against the defendants until the trial had already been going for 8 months.

Justice? Yeah right. The United Nations independent review found it unjust in its final opinion back at the start of September http://international-lawyers.org/Doc...20Decision.pdf and had even told both the Supreme Iraqi Criminal Tribunal and the US government that things needed to be improved, and as importantly what needed improved, over a year prior to that.

Light the touch paper and withdraw to a safe distance? We'll be lucky if that distance even exists on this planet. All they've done with this pathetic excuse for Justice is sign the death warrants of many hundreds of innocents, not just in Iraq but across the world, both foreign citizens and their own, and they've sent a clear message to the Iraqis that they cannot look to the law or the occupation government to defend themselves, cannot look to them for fairness, freedom and justice; the self same rights that supposedly form the corner stones of western society. The protests and the violence that we'll see come out from this will likely be unbelievable. How many hundreds of thousands of innocents must die before a country will accept that its actions abroad are causing them?
This whole farce gets me so annoyed. There was no reason for it to be done this way. The coalition had all the opportunity to ensure it got done the right way, 100% visible to the world. A chance to show the world that the coalition forces still stood on the side of justice. Instead they proved themselves to be little better than savage dictators, dispensing their idea of right and wrong with no thought to justice at all.

I don't claim Saddam was innocent, I'm quite confident that he was probably very much guilty of the crimes he got tried for, and many more beyond it; but you can't expect others to grant justice to yourself and a fair legal trial and not allow it to others. Small wonder groups like Amnesty International were protesting about Saddam's trial, the self same group who have campaigned so hard to see him brought to one. http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-281206-statement-eng

Feek · 30-12-2006, 12:12

I am not sad he is dead.

Perhaps it would have been better if the people who found him, cowering and hiding had just put a round through his head and walked away to leave the body to be discovered by someone else.

Garp · 30-12-2006, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feek

Perhaps it would have been better if the people who found him, cowering and hiding had just put a round through his head and walked away to leave the body to be discovered by someone else.

It would have been so simple to make it look like suicide too...

Zirax · 30-12-2006, 14:55

I can see all hell breaking loose in Iraq now, more so than before. Although this trail would have been a good thing, the way Saddam spun the trial to make himself a marter is a terrible thing to allow to happen. Regardless of the US wanting to kill him, its been exposed that the whole thing was a complete pile of tripe from the start.
"I am ready to die a Marter" Saddams words a couple of days ago.

I think we will leave troops there permenantly, we'll have to. Not just to secure the oil, but even with a large force there... how the heck will we gain control? At the moment now the war is ongoing and the coalition forces are being pushed back by a now much more organised militia force.

Think of all those weapons that "vanished" back when they first went in. I remember reading daily that weapon caches had been emptied recently (ie within a few months) and these were in the region of 300t of weapons a time.

Desmo · 30-12-2006, 19:56

VERY good post there Jarp.

Justsomebloke · 30-12-2006, 20:04

I cannot understand why they did it today as today is Eeed (sp?) there Holiest of days.
Personally i cannot be happy about anyone being murdered no matter what they have done.
This will fuel terrorists for the next 30 years it's just history repeating itself once again, will we never learn.

Flibster · 30-12-2006, 22:41

Considering that the UK and US put him into power in the first place....

Well done - you've just made him a martyr and a idol to any wannabe terrorist agaist the UK or US

We will have troops there for many years - I can alo see it getting MUCH worse over the next few weeks.

Simon/~Flibster

Matblack · 31-12-2006, 00:05

Interesting

I've never seen SH as an idol for terrorists, certainly not Islamic ones, he was always pretty non religious when he was in power, a figurehead for Baath party insurgents certainly but I don't think his execution will have a huge effect on international terrorism either positive or negative.

That is not to say I believe this has been done in the right way, it most certainly hasn't I just don't think it will have the effect that the original post suggests.

MB

killerkebab · 31-12-2006, 00:12

Maybe Saddam isn't a figurehead for terrorism, but the way the US and UK are seen to bully the area and 'impose' these things is hardly helping. That and the entire world was told Saddam would be trialled and it just wasn't done properly.

Feek · 31-12-2006, 00:35

He could never get a 'fair' trial. He was too high profile.

Lets face it, the guy was guilty, does anyone seriously believe he wasn't? I think that any trial would have been called a farce, no matter how it was conducted.

30-12-2006, 12:05	#1
Garp Preparing more tumbleweed Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,038	Light touch paper and withdraw to a safe distance? The deed is done, one less former dictator in the world. A cause for celebration surely? Not really, it would have been better if he'd have been able to see the error of his ways and repented, but they've just ensured that will never happen. Justice served? Hardly. A Mickey Mouse court operation, a legal defence team stymied at every turn; never allowed to see all the evidence being used against him, a Judge appointed and trained by the US for the explicit purpose of this case who from the very start declared Saddam "Guilty", done in a court set up and controlled by the United States (illegal under the international humanitarian law in the Fourth Geneva Convention); A tribunal who obscured justice at all stages, first declaring no evidence existed from the Dujail trial, and then later allowed the prosecution to use evidence from it whilst simultaneously refusing the defence team access to any of the records; who refused to even tell the defence team the charges being raised against the defendants until the trial had already been going for 8 months. Justice? Yeah right. The United Nations independent review found it unjust in its final opinion back at the start of September http://international-lawyers.org/Doc...20Decision.pdf and had even told both the Supreme Iraqi Criminal Tribunal and the US government that things needed to be improved, and as importantly what needed improved, over a year prior to that. Light the touch paper and withdraw to a safe distance? We'll be lucky if that distance even exists on this planet. All they've done with this pathetic excuse for Justice is sign the death warrants of many hundreds of innocents, not just in Iraq but across the world, both foreign citizens and their own, and they've sent a clear message to the Iraqis that they cannot look to the law or the occupation government to defend themselves, cannot look to them for fairness, freedom and justice; the self same rights that supposedly form the corner stones of western society. The protests and the violence that we'll see come out from this will likely be unbelievable. How many hundreds of thousands of innocents must die before a country will accept that its actions abroad are causing them? This whole farce gets me so annoyed. There was no reason for it to be done this way. The coalition had all the opportunity to ensure it got done the right way, 100% visible to the world. A chance to show the world that the coalition forces still stood on the side of justice. Instead they proved themselves to be little better than savage dictators, dispensing their idea of right and wrong with no thought to justice at all. I don't claim Saddam was innocent, I'm quite confident that he was probably very much guilty of the crimes he got tried for, and many more beyond it; but you can't expect others to grant justice to yourself and a fair legal trial and not allow it to others. Small wonder groups like Amnesty International were protesting about Saddam's trial, the self same group who have campaigned so hard to see him brought to one. http://web.amnesty.org/pages/irq-281206-statement-eng __________________ Mal: Define "interesting"? Wash: "Oh, God, oh, God, we're all gonna die"?

30-12-2006, 12:12	#2
Feek ex SAS Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: JO01ou Posts: 10,062	I am not sad he is dead. Perhaps it would have been better if the people who found him, cowering and hiding had just put a round through his head and walked away to leave the body to be discovered by someone else. __________________

30-12-2006, 19:56	#5
Desmo The Last Airbender Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Pigmopad Posts: 11,915	VERY good post there Jarp. __________________

30-12-2006, 20:04	#6
Justsomebloke The Night Worker Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 5,228	I cannot understand why they did it today as today is Eeed (sp?) there Holiest of days. Personally i cannot be happy about anyone being murdered no matter what they have done. This will fuel terrorists for the next 30 years it's just history repeating itself once again, will we never learn. __________________

31-12-2006, 00:05	#8
Matblack Baby Bore Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Svalbard Posts: 9,770	Interesting I've never seen SH as an idol for terrorists, certainly not Islamic ones, he was always pretty non religious when he was in power, a figurehead for Baath party insurgents certainly but I don't think his execution will have a huge effect on international terrorism either positive or negative. That is not to say I believe this has been done in the right way, it most certainly hasn't I just don't think it will have the effect that the original post suggests. MB __________________ "we had roots that grew towards each other underground, and when all the pretty blossom had fallen from our branches we found that we were one tree and not two"

30-12-2006, 14:55	#4
Zirax Goes up to 11! Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 4,577	I can see all hell breaking loose in Iraq now, more so than before. Although this trail would have been a good thing, the way Saddam spun the trial to make himself a marter is a terrible thing to allow to happen. Regardless of the US wanting to kill him, its been exposed that the whole thing was a complete pile of tripe from the start. "I am ready to die a Marter" Saddams words a couple of days ago. I think we will leave troops there permenantly, we'll have to. Not just to secure the oil, but even with a large force there... how the heck will we gain control? At the moment now the war is ongoing and the coalition forces are being pushed back by a now much more organised militia force. Think of all those weapons that "vanished" back when they first went in. I remember reading daily that weapon caches had been emptied recently (ie within a few months) and these were in the region of 300t of weapons a time.

30-12-2006, 22:41	#7
Flibster Moonshine Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,388	Considering that the UK and US put him into power in the first place.... Well done - you've just made him a martyr and a idol to any wannabe terrorist agaist the UK or US We will have troops there for many years - I can alo see it getting MUCH worse over the next few weeks. Simon/~Flibster

31-12-2006, 00:12	#9
killerkebab Vodka Martini Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bristol/Reading Posts: 656	Maybe Saddam isn't a figurehead for terrorism, but the way the US and UK are seen to bully the area and 'impose' these things is hardly helping. That and the entire world was told Saddam would be trialled and it just wasn't done properly. __________________

31-12-2006, 00:35	#10
Feek ex SAS Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: JO01ou Posts: 10,062	He could never get a 'fair' trial. He was too high profile. Lets face it, the guy was guilty, does anyone seriously believe he wasn't? I think that any trial would have been called a farce, no matter how it was conducted. __________________